Grading/condition question???

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Posted By: <b>Richard Lloyd</b><p>Hello..<br /><br />I have always wondered why the worth of a card SIGNIFICENTLY increases after it has been graded...<br />for example, If I have a sandy Koufax and it is EX/NM and I go get it graded and it is EX/NM, why is it work MUCH MUCH more for CONFIRMING what the <br />grade is... It does not make sense to me...The folks that grade are just confirming the grade and the worth of the card still should be what is seen in the Krause guide... for some reason the worth <br />is different... I guess I do not agree that there are 2 different prices for EX/NM unslabed versus EX/NM slabbed...to me it is the same expect some one confirmed the grade??<br /><br />Best<br />Richard

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Posted By: <b>leon</b><p>The reason slabbed will always cost more is that it should be an unbiased opinion on the grade. If I say something is ex-mt, and I am the seller, then I will get more money if the card is in fact ex+ and not what I said it was. If you read the board enough you will more understand the phenomena known as "dealer overgrading"......slabs from the big 3 grading companines are "usually" safer than raw. Cards from SGC are going to be about the most conservatively graded, generally. good luck...

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Posted By: <b>Richard Lloyd</b><p>Thanks Leon...<br />I understand where you are coming from and I agree that a card that is slabbed has the proof that "It is what it is" I would agree that it is worth a small percentage more but in my mind that card has not changed grade after it has been slabbed..it is still the same grade..all that has been done is confirmation.. It seems to me the slab actually makes the card a better grade which would be a GREAT TRICK!!! anyway.. I have just noticed there is a big price difference from slab and not slabbed and wondering why the HUGE JUMP.. and yes,<br />I would and have payed a little more for cards that are slabbed..A good example is the 1928 Fro-Joy babe Ruth cards...I have 3 of them and they are real and having them graded or auth. gives much more confidence.. as well all know they are many fakes..and having them confirmed is worth the added cost..<br />Thanks<br />Richard

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Posted By: <b>Hal Lewis</b><p>Having them slabbed by SGC will also (if they are doing their job) confirm that the card:<br /><br />1) is authetic and not a good counterfeit<br /><br />2) has not been trimmed ever so slightly<br /><br />3) has not been colored<br /><br />4) has not been restored<br /><br />5) has not been bleached<br /><br />6) has no creases that can't be seen without close examination<br /><br />These reasons are all IN ADDITION to the "unbiased grade" reason...<br /><br />so consumers are obviously pretty confident in SGC and PSA if they are paying more for cards that have passed these tests.

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Posted By: <b>Julie</b><p>will show you two cards, side-by-side, in their catalogue, one graded by GAI, SGC or PSA, and one to which they as sellers have assigned the same grade, unprofessionally. And the one to which they have assigned the grade, as sellers, will have a higher price. In other words, they are saying, "In this case, we feel that OUR ex-mint card is nicer than THEIR ex-mint card." It doesn't happen often, but it happens. It not only gives me more confidence in Shoebox's grading, but in the company in general. If I (were forced, because I couldn't find another that I liked)were to buy a graded card from them, PSA, SGC or GAI, I would also feel more confident in the professional grade, because of this policy of theirs.

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Posted By: <b>Richard Lloyd</b><p>Good point Hal..yes, the grading process gives proof of the 6 points that you layed out... But, in my mind if a card passed all 6 points and Krause books it for 200 dollars...Why is it worth 1000 dollars... The Krause set the price for NM and NM means that all 6 points you specified are passed..<br /><br />Best<br />Richard

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Posted By: <b>Gilbert Porter</b><p><P>Now you have asked a different question - whether the Krause guide prices are reflective of actual prices. I suspect that, in the instance you describe, ungraded cards are also selling for more than the guide prices. While the guide prices have gotten better over the years, many of the prices are flat out wrong - mostly too low.</P><P>In most instances I know of where a slabbed-grade substantially raised the price of a card, there was a shortage of legitimate cards that could be found in that grade. The sad fact is that most unslabbed cards are over-graded - whether due to deceit, ignorance or the lack of an electron microscope. And some cards are hard to get graded because of the difficulty in convincing grading companies that differences in cuts, etc. are due to manufacturing problems instead of trimming, etc. Check the population reports on the graded cards that surprise you and you will typically find the answer to your question. </P>

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Posted By: <b>warshawlaw</b><p>It is a confidence factor. There is a big premium that people like me will pay not to waste time and energy examining and returning (if I can even return them) subpar cards. I had abandoned mail order entirely for a number of years because of the constant flow of overgraded crap that I had to haul to the Post Office to send back on my dime. Having a grade assigned by a reputable 3rd party service is a very strong (no, not perfect, but what is besides me <img src="/images/happy.gif" height=14 width=14> ) indicator that you will get what you paid for. <br /><br />Although it was not originally conceived as an internet tool or auction tool, slabbing is a perfect match with buying and selling over the net or through an auction. For example, I am working on several high grade boxing sets. When I buy the cards raw I am invariably taken by at least one grade, unless I can put my hands on them in person and examine them. I have bought hundreds of slabbed cards for my sets and can count the number of disappointments on one hand (interestingly, all of the duds were PSA graded...).

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Posted By: <b>Richard Lloyd</b><p>Now that raises another question... My collection is more regional food/PCL cards and I do collect some turn of the century cards.. But why is there such a BIG price difference between Krause and beckett!!! yes..I understand they are guides but for example 1955 Old HomeStead Franks.. VERY VERY hard cards to find...The Krause books them at 100 dollars and Beckett has them for 8 dollars and If I buy one from a Manos type then i pay 200+ ... I think some one is dead WRONG!! and its past the guidepoint..<br />so, whay is there such a huge difference in prices and this is just 1 of MANY examples.. The Beckett just falls VERY SHORT on the REAL market value of OLDER vontage regional/pcl cards..I have noticed that BECKETT values the NEW cards higher compared to the Krause!!! Hmmmm... very interesting hmmmmm...<br /><br />Best<br />Richard

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Posted By: <b>PASJD</b><p>In my opinion, while this is a bit circular, the reason slabbed cards are worth more is that they are essentially commodities in terms of resale value. My PSA 8 Mantle is worth the same (except perhaps to some lunatics who inexplicably want to overpay for the privilege of buying in an auction) as Bill Mastro's PSA 8 Mantle. Not at all so with a raw EX/MT card, no matter how good a scan you post, at least some bidders will be cautious or deterred because they will fear alteration, overgrading, hidden wrinkles, and so forth. And the price you will get depends at least in part on who you are -- confidence factor mentioned above.

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Posted By: <b>Josh K.</b><p>I agree that that the premium can be explained by the fact that as a purchaser you are also purchasing the knowledge (in most instances) that the card is authentic, unaltered, etc. <br /><br />While the card may theoretically have the same value as an identical unslabbed card, unless you are an expert, you do not know that the unslabbed card is authentic and unaltered - and even if you are an expert, in many instances you will need to see the card in person to make that determination. Slabbing eliminates that issue and, in my opinion, is worth the premium that you pay. <br /><br />As to beckett and krause, my belief has always been that beckett focuses on new issues and does not pay close attention to vintage materials - hence the price differences.

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Posted By: <b>mike</b><p>As mentioned, 1. we buy 3rd party graded cards to reduce the uncertainty of both the authenticity and the stated grade. 2. We sell graded cards so the buyer has more confidence regarding the authenticity and the actual grade. As a result, we expect the narrow the difference between the expected sales price received and the actual price paid as we adjust our collections to suit our changing tastes.<br /><br />I am john doe, no one knows me. I know the seller and the grade assigned is accurate (everyone knows that seller). I am happy with my purchase.<br /><br />Oh uh - I have changed direction in the focus for my collection. No one knows me, and I do not have the well-known reputation as those big guys with their printed ads, web sites, respected knowledge, and customer lists. I sell off or trade my cards at a steep discount to retail, or at a fraction for cash or trade with Big-Time Seller BECAUSE NO ONE KNOWS ME.<br /><br />EBay feedback and 3rd party grading have really helped those of us who are unknown to most folks when we have to sell, even if PSA is ...<br /><br />my $0.02 <img src="/images/happy.gif" height=14 width=14>

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Posted By: <b>Scott</b><p>I think the grading companies should add "in our opinion" to the alteration items, much like autograph certifiers do. Most buyers of slabbed cards have an unwarranted feeling of security, and pay a premium for that.<br /><br />(edited because first post was "fuzzy")<br /><br />I mean, they should add "in our opinion (this card has not been altered)" to ALL slabbed cards.

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Posted By: <b>warshawlaw</b><p>As you said, they are very scarce. You cannot find them, so you pay what the market bears on them, and if you sell, do it at auction so you realize the full market value. I do it too; don't feel bad. <br /><br />The only real value of the guides is when the dealer uses them to price a card that is way undervalued in them. I just love when that happens...hee hee <img src="/images/happy.gif" height=14 width=14> <br /><br />

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Posted By: <b>Richard Lloyd</b><p>I AGREE that the book is of NO or little use on the regional food cards.. On my example of the 1955 Old Homestead Franks the Beckett books them for 8 dollars, Krause is 100 dollars, but the truth is it will cost ya near 300 dollars to by one. I just bought a 1933 Buffalo Bisions puzzle with BOX for 99 dollars and it books for 325 dollars... Yes, I was VERY lucky.. However, The odds of finding this puzzle with ALL the piecies is NEARLY impossible.. It is something that is worth MUCH MUCH more then what the price guide calls... and <br />there are many other examples like this.... but yes.. it can work both ways that they sell you the card for the price in the guide.. I guess the puzzle is an example... but that does not happen often..!!<br /><br />Best<br />Richard