1914 Cracker Jack set [Archive] - Net54baseball.com Forums

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11-23-2004, 05:32 PM

Posted By: Hal LewisWhile the finder of these cards is obviously a very lucky person... I always HATE IT when a "factory find" like this comes to light. <img src="/images/sad.gif" height=14 width=14> Every time it happens, it just makes everything the rest of us have worked so hard to collect worth a little bit less and not as impressive. For instance, I would have been so proud to own an SGC 80 1914 C.J. Shoeless Joe card... but now that a freakin' SGC 98 exists... the whole "mystique" of the hard-to-find 1914 Cracker Jack set seems to be gone. <img src="/images/sad.gif" height=14 width=14> And so much for the caramel stains that are "virtually certain" on every other 1914 C.J. in the World. They will look dirty and ugly next to these. <img src="/images/sad.gif" height=14 width=14>

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11-23-2004, 05:44 PM

Posted By: ChrisIt's entirely possible people may find a new interest in this set. Maybe it will start getting the recognition it deserves. Sure does make my Cicotte that I am so proud of look like nothing.

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11-23-2004, 06:04 PM

Posted By: Bottom of the Ninthwas that this set, along with a host of other goodies walked in on the last day of the National in Cleveland. As expected the dealers who saw the material were doing cartwheels, etc. The gentleman who owned them apparently got them (14CJ's) as a true factory set. These cards are all original and never saw a box of CJ's. I would agree that conservatively the set is worth a million in a half bucks, based on condition, scarcity and importance of the set. This by far eclipses the PSA graded 33 SK set. This is in a totally different league. I am glad that the owner was taken to SGC to get these graded as opposed to going the PSA route.

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11-23-2004, 06:20 PM

Posted By: Hal LewisI would have paid one million bucks for the set and just QUIT collecting cards after that... since there would be nowhere to go but down! The cards are definitely worth more than $800k. Look that that FREAKIN' HORIZONTAL MATTY!!!!!!!

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11-23-2004, 06:36 PM

Posted By: PaulI guess I live in a different world. I am thrilled to death to have the beautiful Honus Wagner, slightly trimmed, that I picked up on ebay a couple of weeks ago for $240.

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11-23-2004, 07:07 PM

Posted By: Julie<img src="/images/happy.gif" height=14 width=14> <img src="http://www.network54.com/Realm/jphotos/110103_diving_prv.gif"> oh yurg...

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11-23-2004, 07:57 PM

Posted By: Marc S.Hal has said that this is a million dollar set, and Greg has suggested a million and a half. I would imagine that the buyer basically wanted to ensure that: a) he was able to purchase the set complete and as a whole, b) he wanted the set to be graded consistently by his favorite grader of choice (SGC) c) he generally wanted the cards to have the best possible grades (obviously, we all want that - but his interest was definitely important in a $800k purchase). Any seller and auction house definitely would want to get not only as much possible money for the set - but as much free publicity and promotion as possible along the way. Even SGC, too, would yield SIGNIFICANT brand equity by having such a large and influential run of cards auctioned off in a big auction. I would imagine that in order to get Mastro to back off of the huge amount of exposure a 1914 CJ auction would yield, that a significant premium had to be paid. Also - remember that there could be an implicit threat that the buyer, if the first three conditions mentioned above were not met, would simply walk away from the deal, and not bid at all. This is a HUGE consideration when you're talking about a collector with a seven-figure collecting budget deciding to pass on a deal. All things being said - I think that this set, if auctioned, would have sold for a discount (exceeding six figures) as compared to what the buyer offered, and the set ultimately sold for. ~ms

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11-23-2004, 08:03 PM

Posted By: John This kind of stuff amazes me. What makes any of you feel the buyer got a steal of a price? $1.5 million for the set then why didn’t it sell for $1.5million vs. $800k? Jackson at $500k by it self so with that price bracket given the new owner could sell both the Cobb and Jackson replace them with slightly lesser condition examples and have a mint 1914 CJ set for virtually no out of pocket expense. If you feel the buyer got a good deal because he got a perfect group of 1914 CJ’s, which will probably never, surface again and he had the cash to do so, I agree. If you feel he paid well below the monetary value of the group of cards I would have to disagree. I don’t feel in any way this guy got a deal. He paid a ridiculous amount of money for something he obviously wanted very badly. I would also go, as far to say that the majority of the people blowing these super sized chunks of cash on these cards will be hard pressed to have any kind of return on their investments if they choose to sell. I have seen many cards from auctions like the Harris and others re surface for sale 4 or more years later only to break even or sell for 15%-30% less than the original purchase price. So I raise these questions: 1.)If you had a powerball windfall today. Would you drop this kind of coin on these super high-end cards (PSA 9,10) or buy the next step down in grade (PSA 6,7,8) and enjoy the money you saved. 2.)Do you think card prices like these are silly gross overpays or sound justified investments and why? 3.)Do you think prices like this will continue or will this stratosphere buying continue into future generations of collecting and why?

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11-23-2004, 09:10 PM

Posted By: Scott ElkinsThe Harris set is of the PLENTIFUL T206 variety with MANY high grade examples of T206's out there! These 1914 CJ's (ESPECIALLY the 14's) are NOT plentiful in ANY condition, much less anything above EX or EX/MT! I have to agree with Greg - this set together is worth at LEAST 1.5 Million Dollars! Sold Seperately, who knows - definitely should fetch over $2 Million! Just look at the last 1914 CJ Matty that Lipset sold for over $17k, PLUS 10% - AND that cards was DEFINITELY a 1 by either of the three top grading companies (GAI, SGC or PSA). AGAIN, we are not talking about plentiful tobacco cards here - these are the 1914's that most people of the time had to complete one at a time out of boxes of Cracker Jack with that caramel staining the cards! I think most people are use to seeing those high grade tobacco cards that are ALWAYS available. NOT until you start collecting caramels on a regular basis, do you realize how really RARE these things are in EX or better, MUCH LESS GEM MINT!!! I will go out on a limb and say that the Matty is worth at LEAST $100k. I KNOW if I had $100k to spend, I WOULD buy it at that price and NOT THINK TWICE!!!!!!! Also, my reasoning for the Jackson being worth $500k is that his CJ cards are always popular in ANY condition, let alone GEM MINT!!!

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11-23-2004, 09:43 PM

Posted By: JohnFirst of all Scott you missed my point. I was not comparing Cracker Jacks to T206’s I was making a point about ultra high prices being paid for cards in Mint cond. With those same cards being sold later for less or the same price with little or no increase in value and as of late, major losses in value compared to the original purchase price. I used the Harris auction as an example. “AGAIN, we are not talking about plentiful tobacco cards here” It would be safe to say that most all really high-grade cards are tough to find. I also don’t remember mint T206’s growing on trees. But that also has very little to do with it. There are many high-grade cards that are somewhat more plentiful than even T206’s that reach huge prices (1952 Topps, 1933 Goudeys etc.). My point was I don’t think this guy got such a great deal as some of you are making it out to be. Why would a company like Mastronet sell an item for 800k that could so easily as you say fetch $1,500,000 to 2,000,000 million dollars? I’m not arguing the importance and rarity of the cards that is truly amazing, what I am pointing out is I don’t think the new owner walked away from this deal with Mastronet with the upper hand. I would guess both parties involved were very happy the owner with an amazing set and Mastronet having made a nice chunk off the deal.

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11-23-2004, 10:05 PM

Posted By: Marc S.Bill Mastro is a very smart, rich man, who has been in this hobby for a long time. If he truly thought that the break value of this set was in the $1.5 to $2.0 million range, as you suggested - WHY ON EARTH would he sell the set privately to a collector - leaving hundreds of thousands IN FEES ALONE on the table - not to mention countless brand equity value and publicity that such an auction would bring. Mastro has been accused of many things - stupidity is not one of them. Also - for what it is worth - I find it curious that this board is so easy to jump on an anti-PSA bandwagon when any vintage HOF star in 9 or better shows up in a PSA holder, but nary a question is raised against SGC...

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11-23-2004, 10:07 PM

Posted By: Scott ElkinsYour example was the Harris collection - it was a T206 collection. And, there are SEVERAL high-grade T206 cards out there (NM/MT 8's and above), even though they don't grow on trees - just look on eBay from time to time. THAT (several high grade T206's IS the reason these Harris Collection cards are sometimes going DOWN in value!!!). HIGH GRADES for caramels are considered 5's and above. While with tobacco cards, people consider high grades anything above a 7. Also, you are correct Mint cards are scarce - especially caramels! And, I was only basing my assumption of pricing according to the recent market for high grade cards (especially caramels). I do agree with you on one thing - a lot of these prices are outrageous! I am a collector, I would much rather have a nice 3 or 4 - they really look like a "Vintage card should look" in my opinion. Unfortunately, not everyone feels the same way I do. There are several people with tons more $$$$ than I, and they seem to like to own the BEST on the block! Also, among the caramel sets, CJ's are the most popular - most people who even do not collect cards period recognixe T206's and Cracker Jack cards right away! Cracker Jacks are kind of the T206 set of caramel cards - the most popularly collected. It is not some obscure set by any means. There are Several Black Sox Collectors, Several Shoeless Joe Jackson collectors and Several Cracker Jack collectors! All this equals DEMAND! Demand equals higher prices. Afterall, it would ONLY TAKE TWO COLLECTORS with tons of $$$$ who really want to own quite possibly the FINEST PRE WAR CARD in existence of one of the games MOST POPULAR players from one of the Hobby's MOST POPLUAR sets to get into a bidding war and push it WELL ABOVE the $500k mark! Hell, recently two California League Old Judge cards in SGC POOR condition brought over $52k each!!!!!! So WHY do you find me so ignorant to think that a GEM MINT 1914 Shoeless Joe Jackson (of all players) graded by the SAME grading company is NOT worth ten times this amount of two COMMONS!?!?!? ALL one has to do is look at the recent (past few years) Vintage Market on High Grade cards and realize that $500k for this card is a very modest value! I hope everyone does not think I am so stupid for what I said!

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11-23-2004, 10:15 PM

Posted By: Scott ElkinsIf you follow Mastronet auctions of sets and lots of cards, they HARDLY EVER break them up! THIS is how they make their money!!!!! Mastronet sell them WHOLE to dealer, who then break them up for a PROFIT! Afterall, don't you remember the discussions on this very board about people COMPLAINING about Mastronet NOT breaking up large lots and sets!?!?!? Bill Mastro IS smart and a shrewd business man! I DON'T know the whole story of the buying/selling of this set. However, if what you say is true - Bill Mastro bought it, then sold it to an individual for $800k. THAT is what he wanted to do!!! Time is MONEY!!! It would take more time to break this set up and list it individually in a catalog or catalogs. If the profit was nice enough, with him selling at $800k, then he knew what he was doing! Afterall, he could start drawing the interest on the money and be guaranteed a NICE PROFIT, instead of waiting for the next auction to roll around! Plus, he probably made a very good customer of his happy!!!!

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11-23-2004, 10:18 PM

Posted By: Scott ElkinsIs Bill Mastro still at Mastronet????? I thought Doug was running the show now?????? At least that is what Brian told me - I don't know.

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11-23-2004, 10:19 PM

Posted By: Bottom of the NinthIf you have the money to spend you will never lose in buying the best. Whether you believe the card is altered or not, the T206 Wagner PSA 8 is a perfect example. While 800K is a lot to spend on cards, let alone one set, it would seem to me this set has far more value if it were to be broken up, as Scott mentioned. Too few collectors can actually afford to pay that for a set although there are many collectors who can afford 1 or 2 pieces of this set. I think the set being comprised of the highest graded examples for each of the cards, most of which are MINT or better, on an issue that rarely is seen in anything better VGEX, makes this purchase a one of kind. Generally I do not see as much value in such high grade sets but this issue is different. Were I able, I would pay 800K for this set well before I would pay 360K for the Sport Kings set or 275K for the 52 Topps set. With all that said I would love to hear what Michael Wentz has to say on the subject.

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11-23-2004, 10:19 PM

Posted By: Marc S.EOM

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11-23-2004, 10:33 PM

Posted By: JimBThis is truly a mindblowing set. It is unbelievable. As far as its value goes, we are all simply speculating. There is no 1914 CJ set that could remotely compare; even the admirable ex/mt+ set on the registry, as incredible as it is, is in another league. I think this virtually mint set is worth more as a complete set than if broken up. Individual cards are stunning, but a complete 1914 CJ set in virtual mint condition- that is really amazing. There are a handful of nm/mt 14 CJs around and they command a premium when made available, but it is the completion of this set in consistent high grade that makes this set truly irreplacable. I hope it is never broken up. I think that would be a sin. THis is way more incredible to me than the PSA 8 Wagner. True, Bill Mastro knows how to make money. Part of that is cultivating good relations with good customers. Maybe he payed 300k for it and was content to make a half a million and have a very happy customer who got the call and the offer. Maybe there was an agreement that that customer would sell other items only through Mastro. I am speculating of course.... And 800,000 is not a small sum of money for any set. And I think this is the most incredible baseball card set in existence. FYI, the Harris T206 set generated over 1 million dollars when broken up, so this is not actually the most expensive set. JimB

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11-23-2004, 11:04 PM

Posted By: Brian H (misunderestimated)on the value issue and what the Jackson alone could bring on the open market. Also, if you read all of the stuff on SGC/Mastro sites you don't really know what happened (or who the original seller or buyer was for that matter). It is really just alot of well-written PR about how amazing the set is (which it is). So we don't know what Mastro's role in the whole deal was. Maybe the orignal seller wanted his/her money fast ? Maybe that seller wanted the whole thing kept together for some reason ? I'm sure it will all come out eventually. I can just tell you that as someone who has been making an attempt to put that set together for several years -- albeit a rather feeble and not well-funded attempt -- I am utterly blown away by these cards. They are so condition sensitive and so rare relative to the big T-issues and even the 1915 CJs that over a little time the break-up value could well be over 3 times the amount paid (ie about $2.5M).

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11-23-2004, 11:33 PM

Posted By: JohnScott, I in no way implied you were ignorant. We have a difference of opinion that’s all. I feel the reason ultra high-end cards are going down in value are not due more abundant amounts of high quality cards of the same type being found. But is due in large part to hype and the novelty of the purchase wearing off. There was a mystique created around the Harris set and that affects buying habit’s. Just as there is a mystique around these CJ’s. However if you were to slap a PSA 9 or 10 Jackson in the next Mastro or Sportscards Plus auction I would be beside myself if you got 500k. You bring up some good points about some cards (caramels, scrap tobacco etc.) being hard to find in mint compared to others. I agree, however I would say that most of the collectors today who are buying these ultra high-dollar cards, are not as educated as you. They are buying these cards at whatever prices they can just to have them. For every reason you can site about condition and rarity justifying the price, another 1952 Topps DP Mickey Mantle sells for over 100k. I feel many of these prices are set buy wealthy individuals who want a status symbol or bragging rights and have been lured in by colorful descriptions and misleading lot overviews. If true rarity really dictated the value of baseball cards we all would have a new list of the big 10 to memorize. And several board members would be sitting pretty. It also could have gone the other way Mastro may not have purchased the lot outright but just moved them for the owner for a fee (15%). That could explain why they were sold to a private collector and not broken up at auction. But for the record this was a huge deal and in no way a bargain. I don’t think this guy could flip these for an 800k or more gain, as you seem to think. No one leaves 700,000 to 1,000,000 or more in profit sitting on the table. That’s just my opinion. Maybe I’m the ignorant one Scott please explain why anyone who is in the business of baseball cards for a living and arguably the one of the most successful. Would leave that kind of coin on the table just to make a quick buck on a once in a lifetime sale. That’s what I disagree with you and the others on. I think the price had to be well above fair in order for Mastro or who ever to not go forward with an auction. Why would any parties throw away that kind of cash if it really is a 2 million dollar set as you and the others have stated. I also have to agree it would be a sin to break them up I hope they stay together; I felt the same way about the Harris collection.

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11-23-2004, 11:41 PM

Posted By: Marc S.I'm confident that the current owner does not plan to move the cards. You are also right that Mastro would not leave money on the table. If such a flip had a high chance of occurring - then why wouldn't the new owner just cash out and double his money? Mastro has such a diverse clientelle - and they know the markets they serve better than almost anyone. (Who else can assemble nine Wagners to display at the National...?). Liquidity was not an issue for the seller or for Mastro. I think that all parties are happy with the outcome - and none of them are left with a thought of "what could have been?" The Jackson is a fabulous card - absolutely freaking incredible. It would not sell for $500k, though.

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11-23-2004, 11:44 PM

Posted By: Morrie"Also - for what it is worth - I find it curious that this board is so easy to jump on an anti-PSA bandwagon when any vintage HOF star in 9 or better shows up in a PSA holder, but nary a question is raised against SGC..." What kind of questions would you like raised? Somebody over on the PSA boards jokingly asked if they were bleached, and someone else suggested they were fake (cards, scans, or both). Having never seen the cards, I can't say. The pictures are beautiful, but I don't know enough about CJs in general to assess their authenticity from the scans. I guess I'm just confused what SGC (and Mastro, I suppose) has done here that makes you think we ought to be concerned. I thought at first that you might be referring to some kind of double-standard. That didn't make sense to me, though, since there's really no reason based on the provenance of the cards or SGC's history to question their grading. Which makes me think you might know something we don't. So, what do you know that should make us want to question them? Morrie

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11-24-2004, 12:09 AM

Posted By: Scott ElkinsCompared to SEVERAL Pre-War cards, 1914 CJ's are not even close to being rare. They are a very popular set - as far as Pre-War goes, CJ's are probably right behind T206's in popularity. Popularity is where the $$$ comes in, and publicity. Were a card's worth based on rarity, hands down Leon's Fan's Cig. Baker would be the most valuable card. Like I said, I really don't know anything about this "find", other than what was stated in that article. I would guess and say that Mastro brokered a "quick" sale for the owner - that would be my guess. The owner probably wanted the $ quickly. If Mastro bought it, the set was probably sold at a substantial quick profit to a GOOD client - this happens all the time in our collecting world and the real business world! We all (or almost all do this quite frequently). I know I have - on a MUCH MUCH MUCH smaller scale of course. Instead of listing a card or cards on eBay and waiting as little as a week, I will sell a card to a friend who wants it for a smaller profit. Like I said, we have probably all done that. Plus, there would have been quite a bit expense on Mastro's part (labor, printing, etc. for a catalog auction), plus a wait of months. Also, they probably have their next auction planned out - just waiting on more consignments of course (they probably already have several). Since this is the case, to break this set up and sell individually would probably have required a "seperate" auction altogether - thus, even more costs incurred! Also, it seems (from my understanding), that the NEW owner is having the cards graded - there was another expense and wait that Mastro did not incur by selling the set together. Bottom Line - sure there would have been more money, had Mastro purchased the set - then sold the cards individually. However, there would have been more UPFRONT costs (probably substantial at that), more time and NO GUARANTEE! This is why I think if Mastro did purchase the set, they sold it quickly. AND, they made a good customer happy in the process!

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11-24-2004, 12:21 AM

Posted By: Scott ElkinsBeing a collector, I have to strongly disagree with the people who say they would like this set to "stay together". It would be great for the Hobby for it to be broken up - that would make a "chance" for 144 different people to have a piece of a spectacular find (however, that wouldn't happen, as some people would definitely win more than one card - but, would be possible in theory). In fact, if I had it, I would keep a couple of my favorites and sell the remainder - making a substantial profit and finally proving I was right! Afterall, Sportscard Plus didn't sell the Harris set intact - and, look at the success of that auction - over $1 Million. With that in mind, and this set a higher grade, it should be VERY EASY for you guys/gals to comprehend that my estimate of $1.5-$2 Million is probably very accurate! Now, as Forrest Gump would have said......"That's all I've got to say about that.".......until the one day in the future (whether it be one year or ten years) that the set is broken up and sold. THEN, I will only have to say - remember when Greg Schwartz and I told you people what this set would sell for, well we were WRONG - it sold for more!

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11-24-2004, 04:14 AM

Posted By: John “If Mastro bought it, the set was probably sold at a substantial quick profit to a GOOD client - this happens all the time in our collecting world and the real business world!” I don’t remember houses; land, luxury cars being sold to me for half price or less no matter how good a customer I was. I also have never sold anything in my life that was worth lets say $5000 for $1000 just cause I didn’t feel like waiting a week. “Plus, there would have been quite a bit expense on Mastro's part (labor, printing, etc. for a catalog auction), plus a wait of months. Also, they probably have their next auction planned out - just waiting on more consignments of course (they probably already have several). Since this is the case, to break this set up and sell individually would probably have required a "separate" auction altogether - thus, even more costs incurred!” Do you really think Mastro would incur enough expenses putting together an auction to sell this set, and that these cost to profit expenses would be higher or close to 700k to 1.2 million dollars difference. Making the idea of generating the extra income for his company not an attractive venture? “Being a collector, I have to strongly disagree with the people who say they would like this set to "stay together". It would be great for the Hobby for it to be broken up - that would make a "chance" for 144 different people to have a piece of a spectacular find” My opinion on this is more of a romantic one. In which, when sets like the Harris or this set are broken up for the almighty dollar. They are very rarely ever put back together. It came in together in an envelope its nice to know they will stay together for future collecting generations. That’s all. But we could cut them into halves and then 288 people would get a chance to own a piece of this set. Just joking. “Afterall, Sportscard Plus didn't sell the Harris set intact - and, look at the success of that auction - over $1 Million. With that in mind, and this set a higher grade, it should be VERY EASY for you guys/gals to comprehend that my estimate of $1.5-$2 Million is probably very accurate!” Not really the T206 Harris set is a different animal all together. 1.)Nearly three times as many cards in top condition. 2.)Easily the most popular and most collected pre-war issue. 3.)Contained cards from such great collections and finds (Copeland, Southern Find) 4.)Is a set which is famous for having some of the world’s most desirable baseball cards (Wagner, Plank, Magie) 5.)When I tell people I collect old baseball cards they all ask do you have the Honus Wagner card. Very few have asked about the 1914 Joe Jackson CJ. No I don’t comprehend! Maybe you and Greg can explain it to me. Why one of the world’s most successful sports memorabilia auction houses sold (according to you) a 2 million dollar set for a net loss of 1.2 million dollars in potential profit. Because it was too much trouble or to expensive to put together a catalogue and wait a few months. Or maybe its because he wanted to hook up a really good customer with a sweet deal and turn a quick buck. Cause this happens in the real business world every day right? Also explain what person would sell their 2 million dollar art collection for more than half off because they need the money. Especially since most all-major auction houses will give cash advances to consignor’s for significant lots. Scott once again I’m not implying your ignorant. However I will ask you to explain why you and Greg feel you have a better idea of real market value as compared to the parties involved with the sale of this set. Also explain why you both so strongly feel this was a deal for the buyer and an impatient or uneducated mistake on the seller’s part.

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11-24-2004, 05:27 AM

Posted By: Gilbert MainesGee, I think that this transaction can be a deal for the buyer and the correct business choice for the seller. The reasons why it is a good purchase are discussed adequately above. The reasons why it is a good sale could include the fact that the seller freed up $800K to allow them to do what they do best. Sometimes liquidity matters a lot. And at this level, they made a choice on the money they could generate if they had immediate buying power vs. the profit they would generate if they took the time to maximize their sale price. As unlikely as it was for this set to walk into the National this year, it would be no more unlikely for the same thing to happen at next years National. This would yield two pristine 1914 CJs. It is no more unlikely to happen again than for it to have happened this time. But still it is very unlikely.

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11-24-2004, 08:28 AM

Posted By: AnonymousI would be happy to take off of anyones hands those overvalued and overpopulated t206 hofers graded 8 or 9. Listen to Scott and sell them to me now before they are worth half of what you paid!

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11-24-2004, 09:07 AM

Posted By: jay behrensNot every transaction is done to maximize total dollar return. If this were the case, then MAstro would be selling every card as an individual lot, removing the chance for dealers to buy these huge lots and flip them on eBay or in their own auctions. When in the 80s when I was dealing I flipping a couple of collections really fast. Did I realize the maximum return on the collections? No, but I made a nice chunk of change for having my money tied up for a week as opposed to having it tied up for months or longer trying to get top dollar. And then there is always the uncertainty factor that the market may bottom out. Having your money now beats the hell out of trying to milk every penny from a collection only to have the market bottom out. If MAstro made only a $100k on the flip of this collection, it's probably a better deal tahtn if he tried to milk it, for all the reasons already stated. He is getting all the publicity from the sale right now without having to go thru the expense of putting this in his auctions. It makes sense to me. I don't understand why you don't get it, unless you are a firmly entrenched money grubbing whore (not a personal attack, just a phrase I like to use to describe someone that must get every last penny out of things you sell). Jay I saw weird stuff in that place last night. Weird, strange, sick, twisted, eerie, godless, evil stuff. And I want in.

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11-24-2004, 10:54 AM

Posted By: Bottom of the NinthJohn, I am not going to guess what was going through the minds of the folks at Mastronet, the original owner or the buyer. I was shocked to see that Mastronet was the entity to broker the deal, as I was not aware they had anything to do with the original owner by the time he left the National or anytime thereafter. I was under the impression that a certain dealer had locked up brokering the deal. In my assigning a value to the set I estimated a value of 1.5 million based on the sum of the parts, based solely on the issue, condition, demand and desirability. Since I was not privy to the deal I cannot tell you why Mastronet, as you put it, lost 1.2 million in profit. I have no idea of the complexity of the sale. I agree that Mastronet is a company that possesses vast hobby knowledgeable and business acumen therefore making a 1.2 million mistake would never happen. For a all I know maybe this is nothing more than a publicity stunt from the sale point of view. Greg

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11-24-2004, 11:42 AM

Posted By: PASJDWhen I click on the link, it shows that only some of the cards have been graded and says to check back because they will all be graded by December. What on earth does that mean? How long does it take to grade 144 cards?

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11-24-2004, 01:20 PM

Posted By: Scott ElkinsFirst of all to the anonymous poster who stated I think the Harris collection cards are going to continue to go down in price. I did not say that - JOHN said that they always seem to sell for 30% less - I just used his example in my response. I know that PSA 9 Burch with Bat is awesome, and can't see it going down 30% every time it is re-sold - it it does, I will eventually purchase it!!!!!! AND, I only said tobacco cards are plentiful compared to caramel cards of the era - they certainly are not plentiful by today's standards at all!!!!!!! To answer PASJD's question. My guess would be SGC wants to get all the grades CORRECT - therefore, they are taking a little extra time viewing the cards with their elecron microscope. AND last - John, in your last post, you even admit the Harris collection was broken up to realize maximum profit potential of over $1 Million - why could it not happen with this set as well?????? Also, like Greg and others, unlike John, I believe Mastro more or less "brokered" the quick deal. Also, if they bought then resold - that was very smart as well - saving time and money, plus generating more publicity for their auctions! Being in the estate tax funding business over 10 years before my injury, I know that no matter how much a company or individual is worth, they might not have a ton of "liquid" capital! Businesses especially NEED liquid capital for all those salaries and "bills" each couple of weeks or month! So, it is not that far fetched to see a big business turn a "smaller" QUICK profit for liquidity - I don't see why John does not understand this?? Maybe your assets are all liquid John, but most businesses and individuals DON'T have a ton of liquid assets - ie: cash! One last thing - John states that "Mastro lost over 1 Million" if the other estimates of $1.5-2 Million are correct on the individual value of this set. Well, I can assure John that Mastro didn't LOSE anything on this deal. As for potential profit left on the table, the cards were not graded at the time. In fact, they still are not ALL graded. As we all KNOW - the grades on these holders (whether it is SGC, PSA or GAI) is what CREATES value! This ESTIMATE of ours is ONLY now being created! Of course, nobody would have paid anything close to $500k for that Jackson raw! Now that it resides in a GEM MINT holder - different story!

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11-24-2004, 01:36 PM

Posted By: Bill KaselSome of you are missing the point here. You are taking a thread that showcases one of the most amazing finds and turning it into a pi$$ing match about who can guess how much it would be worth, or how much is should have been sold for, with a jibe about PSA here, SGC there, and GAI for good measure thrown in. Way to ruin a post. Cant some of you just enjoy the fact that these cards are out there? My God, it's like a bunch of little girls fighting over a Malibu Stacy! What a set, what a find, I cant stop looking at the images they have posted. Happy Thanksgiving all!!! Bill Kasel

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11-24-2004, 01:41 PM

Posted By: Hal LewisI would fight over an SGC 98 Horizontal Malibu Stacy.

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11-24-2004, 01:49 PM

Posted By: jay behrensHal, Any other positions you would to see her in? :-p Jay I saw weird stuff in that place last night. Weird, strange, sick, twisted, eerie, godless, evil stuff. And I want in.

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11-24-2004, 01:50 PM

Posted By: craig lipmanSorry I didn't mean to post anonymously; I'm a frequent lurker but infrequent poster. This a fantastic find but to say it is better than the Harris collection is premature. This is a 144 card set with 27 graded cards so far. Nearly one quarter of those cards have graded as 5's or 6's. There are 31 hofer's in the CJ set plus the Jackson. The Harris t206 collection was 520 cards including the only known 10's, over 100 nines and 350 8's. The Harris collection included 75 hofers including 4 Cobbs, 3 Youngs, 3 Mattys , 2 Johnsons and a psa 7 Plank. Nines included a Matty portrait, Cobb and Young. 1914 CJs are condition rarities but historically 8s when available have sold at a discount to equally graded 1915 CJs of the same hofer ( except Matty). There are far more 1915 collectors and I doubt this once in a lifetime find will change that. I also think your estimate of 500k for Jackson is to say the least generous. Mastro knows the buisness side of the hobby better than anyone and didn't leave 1 million dollars on the table to do a favor for a good customer or to make a quick buck as has been suggested.

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11-24-2004, 03:28 PM

Posted By: JohnScott you keep avoiding my question to you. I understand assets and liquid capitol all to well are you now implying I’m Ignorant? Yes it’s true some companies live from paycheck to paycheck. But large companies don’t use working capitol like a pawnshop for the quick buck as you so easily think they do. No one buys a 2 million dollar piece of property then flips it for more than half its value just to stay liquid. That’s the same mentality of a crack head selling a Rolex for a sandwich because he’s hungry. Use your head a little Mastronet is a company which puts on about (3-4) 15-20 million dollar total auctions a year. We know they charge both a $75 dollar per person yearly fee. They also obtain a 15% sellers fee and 15% buyers fee on that 15-20 million right. So were talking about a company that safely makes millions of dollars a year. Do you really think Mastronet writes checks for all these lots from his company check book. I would take a guess that he uses working capitol from several places (Loans, Lines of Credit, Private Investors?) etc. Regardless of how he pays no company looses 1.2 million dollar in profit on anything no matter how tight their capitol is. Yeah I don’t see your point and Jay were not talking about a 100k here or there sure that would make sense. According to Scott & Greg were talking about a whole 800k or more in value that’s a big oversight. Bill I’m not trying to have a Pi$$ing match with these guys. This forum is used for education for many lurkers and if I were to start making wild accusations about cards when they were made or how they were produced, you guys would be all over me. To me it’s no different here you state that these cards a worth more than double what was paid I’d like some real good reasons to back those up. I think 800k was the perfect price in fact maybe a bit much. I bet Bill Mastro got two speeding tickets heading to the bank with his oversized novelty check to cash that baby! If Mastronet “Brokered” any quick deal it was to put the seller in touch with the buyer for a fee. It had to be the right price or it would not have been sold period! If today the Mona Lisa is offered to me for 1 million dollars and I had to sell everything I own to buy it, and I had to live on the street. I wouldn’t sell it tomorrow for 1.5 just to get my house back real quick. I think I’d find a grate cuddle up and wait and sell it for the several 100’s of millions its worth! What I don’t get is why you and Greg both have made this outlandish accusation that not only Mastronet but also all parties involved (The Seller, The Buyer, Mastronet). Have no clue of the proper value of this set of cards and all parties either to their advantage (Buyer) or to their disadvantage (Seller, Mastronet) have missed “conservatively” over a million in profit! Maybe you should call these parties up and let them in on you recent market evaluation of these cards. But Bill I do agree with you we should spend more time enjoying cards vs. pricing them it’s a shame our hobby has come to this. But this is part of the reason it has there is no real idea of value any more. With this Dr. Evil mentality “its worth one million dollars” (pinky finger to lip) It’s worth what someone is willing to pay you, which in this case is 800k not 2 million that’s all folks! If it was worth a penny more I do believe it would have sold for it! P.S. We are talking about a major significant once in lifetime find right? You generally take your time with something of this magnitude you just don’t roll through with a business as usual mentality! If I found a new copy of the Declaration of Independence I’m pretty sure I won’t be listing it on eBay!

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11-24-2004, 03:36 PM

Posted By: Hal LewisI think someone hit the nail on the head earlier. I think the set sold UNGRADED... so it clearly was a RISK to pay $800,000 for it. We, however, are now seeing it ALREADY GRADED... so it is easy for us to crow about how much the set it worth. I would NOT have paid $800,000 for the set ungraded and unauthenticated and undocumented. No way. Huge risk. Especially when some unknown guy just walked in off the street with it. I WOULD, however, pay $800,001 for the set now that it has been graded and authenticated and assured of being high quality. Especially if it is being sold by a reputable house like Mastro. I think we may just be mixing apples and oranges here: Raw Price vs. Graded Price

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11-24-2004, 03:54 PM

Posted By: dstudebaIt might have been sold unslabbed, but severely doubt it was sold unauthenticated/ungraded, so I don't think the cards sold for any significant discount because they were unslabbed. I am sure Bill Mastro and the buyer went to significant lengths to understand what was being bought and sold. Though I have no knowledge of Bill Mastro and Mastronet other than their auctions, I am confident he knows a few things about maximizing returns. If grading the cards would have maximized the return, he would have done it. Also to echo an earlier comment, with money as cheap to borrow as it is these days, Mastronet has no need to sell this set at a discount for working capital. Congratulations to whomever owns the set now. If money weren't an issue, I would rather have that Matty then the PSA 8 Wagner.

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11-24-2004, 05:26 PM

Posted By: Brian Weisner Hi Hal, I would have paid the $800,000 ungraded and sold it to you for 1.1 million. Anyone who has seen really nice Cracker Jacks would have jumped all over this find, and I'm 100% sure you own nicer CJ'S than I do. I remember Dick Decoursey (Bad spelling) breaking up a beautiful 1915 set about 15-20 years ago that looked almost exactley like this , too bad it wasn't a 1914 set, then I would have touched all of these cards. be well Brian

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11-24-2004, 05:52 PM

Posted By: Hal LewisI wouldn't have paid a dime more than $999,999 (just for the principle of the thing)... but you still would have made a quick $199,999!! <img src="/images/happy.gif" height=14 width=14>

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11-24-2004, 06:12 PM

Posted By: Brian Weisner Thanks Hal, With 2 daughters to cloth and put thru school I'd could use the extra 200k. Paypal or money order would be great, but your personal check would be OK too................ PS Where's that Feldman guy? I need to buy some "Vintage" reprints.

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11-24-2004, 06:18 PM

Posted By: Scott Elkinsyou are the John D. Rosinski I recently caught shilling two auctions of yours I was bidding on (thanks to an e-mail from Dan McKee - in which, Husband-of-Tammy ALSO caught this John D. Rosinski shilling him as well!). If this is you and your problem with me - you will get over it (I have already reported these two auctions and shillings to eBay). The seller was rizjeep - the seller used the I.D. "pookyfish" to shill myself and "husband-of-tammy"!!!! However, if you are not this person - PLEASE read what I say. I think Hal said it best - I have said BEFORE in OTHER posts the $800k was paid for RAW cards - comprende'????????????????? NOW, the cards are being GRADED (which, if you follow eBay and ANY AUCTION, INCREASES the value SUBSTANTIALLY)!!! I know if someone told me they had one MINT card for sale, the THOUGHT would be in my mind (PSA, SGC or GAI) would ONLY grade this thing a 7 or something!!!! That is why a MINT card is worth more slabbed than raw! This is all I am posting - any more might confuse you into me saying Mastronet does not know how to make $$$$$ or something!!!!!!!!!

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11-24-2004, 06:58 PM

Posted By: craigScott, Give the caps keys a rest and get real. Nobody plunks down 800k for raw cards hoping that they will grade high. In addition I'm sure Mastro knew exactly what grades the cards would receive. He did not give a discount for raw cards because he wanted to avoid the grading fees. I have been contacted (as I'm sure other board members have) by dealers offering me cards that are not back from grading yet the dealer is confident of the grade it will receive.

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11-24-2004, 07:20 PM

Posted By: JohnScott first of all no I’m not some guy off ebay out for revenge against you so put your “pookyfish” back wear it belongs. John is a pretty common name and I’m a board member who simply disagrees with your view on the value of these cards. I have even raised an spirited discussion asking to give some insight on how you came to this monumental price tag. That’s it I disagree. If you read my first post it was more as a question to any of you on why you feel it was such a deal. Why you also felt it was worth so much more than the 800k-sale price. It was only after you starting lecturing me on business and how people will sell goods for more than half off there value that I got heated. Once again the reasons you have given to answer my questions don’t make any sense to me and I have the right to disagree. I also don’t feel I’m the only one who feels your “conservative” value is a bit over valued, but maybe I stand alone with the few who have agreed with me. I also “comprende'?????????????????” very well. I don’t know why you are so defensive about someone disagreeing with you, or asking for more reasons to back up your claims of real market value on this set of cards. What you have failed to prove to me, or what I strongly disagree with you on are the following items. 1.)That this set by being put into holders today will bring nearly three times as much as it sale price of 800k virtually overnight. 2.)That Mastro or anybody for that matter would take a small amount of profit vs. the actual value. (A) Because it would take to much time & money to put together an auction. (B) Because they would not have the flexibility to sit on the working capitol until the final sale was completed. (C) It would be easier to make a little money vs. a lot of money to move it to a GOOD client. All of which are reasons you have given to us on why this set was sold for 800k vs. the 2 million that you and Greg feel “conservatively” its worth. 3.)That this set is in any way worth more on the open market as compared to the Harris set. Or should I say that it would have a higher break value on this 144 cards set vs. 520 cards in the Harris set. 4.)That the Jackson card would even come close to your 500k value I have to disagree. So I raise one more question if you and Greg had to purchase this set of cards tomorrow to sell right away not keep, and you could purchase them for between 800k and 1 million dollars. Do you truly feel you could make the 500k to 1 million dollars in profit now that the cards are slabbed? Because that’s basically what both of you have claimed. See below. And If this is the case why would any of the parties involved in this sale throw away the exposure and potential extra $$$$? Scott Elkins Writes: This was a steal for the person who bought this! The Jackson has to be worth at least $500k+++ - GEM MINT!!!!! Greg Schwartz Writes: I would agree that conservatively the set is worth a million in a half bucks, based on condition, scarcity and importance of the set. Scott Elkins Writes: I have to agree with Greg - this set together is worth at LEAST 1.5 Million Dollars! Sold Seperately, who knows - definitely should fetch over $2 Million! Scott Elkins Writes: With that in mind, and this set a higher grade, it should be VERY EASY for you guys/gals to comprehend that my estimate of $1.5-$2 Million is probably very accurate!

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11-25-2004, 12:50 AM

Posted By: jay behrensI might be getting my rumors wrong, but isn't there a lot of suspicion that the Harris collection contains a lot of trimmed/altered cards and received preferential treatment in its grading? As to the sale price of the CJ set raw vs graded, I am sure there a premium attached to the price given the condition, but even MAstro had no clue that Jax would come back a 98. That alone would have been grounds tacking on a serious premium above the already heafty price. As of now, most of the HOFers are are 96 including Cobb and Alexander and 2 commons grade 98. It wouldn't be surprising to see Jax, Cobb, Matty, Alexander, Johnson and Wagner would fetch close to $1 million or more by themselves. Jay I saw weird stuff in that place last night. Weird, strange, sick, twisted, eerie, godless, evil stuff. And I want in.

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11-30-2004, 07:49 PM

Posted By: Brian H (misunderestimated)<a href="http://sports.yahoo.com/mlb/news?slug=ap-baseballcards-record&prov=ap&type=lgns" target=_new>http://sports.yahoo.com/mlb/news?slug=ap-baseballcards-record&prov=ap&type=lgns</a>

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11-30-2004, 08:51 PM

Posted By: Marc S.So what were the other 2,356 cards that were in this collection?!?!?!

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12-01-2004, 03:44 PM

Posted By: JimBClearly everybody who is estimating what the set would bring if broken up is speculating. There is no referrence point. What drives up prices on a lot of these high grade old cards is when there are competing people trying to complete sets in high grade or other factors. For example, there are a number of people attempting to assemble high grade T206 sets and they compete for the high grade cards they want. There are not a lot of people attempting to put together a highgrade 14 set because it is next to impossible. Thus, while the HOFs would certainly generate a lot of interest, I doubt the commons would bring as much as people are fantacising about. Somebody pulled the # $500K for the Jackson out of hat, and people seem to have jumped on the bandwagon. It is possible that it would generate that much, but my estimate would be closer to $200K. We probably will never know, and I personally hope we won't because I think that set should remain as a set and not be broken up. JimB

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12-01-2004, 04:58 PM

Posted By: Julie<img src="http://www.network54.com/Realm/jphotos/orphgron012.jpg"> <img src="http://www.network54.com/Realm/jphotos/orphgron012.jpg">

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12-01-2004, 05:03 PM

Posted By: JimBI think Peter Garcia's ex/mt+ set on the PSA set registry counts as a high-grade set, though not in the same league as this recent find. Still it is pretty incredible in its own right. JimB

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12-01-2004, 05:31 PM

Posted By: warshawlawJust for fun--what movie was that from, who said it, what was it in reference to, and who wrote it? <img src="/images/happy.gif" height=14 width=14> <img src="http://www.network54.com/Realm/tmp/1101951046.JPG">

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12-01-2004, 05:42 PM

Posted By: Steve Dawsonthe stuff dreams are made of...December 1 2004, 8:31 PM Just for fun--what movie was that from, who said it, what was it in reference to, and who wrote it? That quote is from, I believe, The Maltese Falcon. Bogey said it in reference to the Falcon itself. I think it was written by Dashiel Hammett. Steve Edited to add: That quote could of course, be said in reference to this Cracker Jack set, as it sure has got me dreaming about finding a stash of similar cards:)

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12-01-2004, 07:01 PM

Posted By: ChrisI actually feel bad for Peter Garcia. He has spent many years putting together an incredible set and is always trying to upgrade so that he can have the best set possible. Now it is impossible. He will have to settle for second best.

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12-01-2004, 07:31 PM

Posted By: Julieand our little life is rounded with a sleep"--Prospero, "The Tempest" (Shakespeare) Bogey is still cute, though. And Adam DID say "movie."

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12-01-2004, 09:16 PM

Posted By: Marc S.Chris: Peter's 1914 set is pretty darn fabulous - and all/most of his cards are clearly of the "circulated" variety - so there is a certain charm to them, I imagine. I've heard that he was pretty involved in the negotations on this set while it was still in the dealers hands and before Mastro got involved. He seems to be a pretty smart guy - and I imagine that he could have made a more serious move on this set if he had wanted to. I think its cool that Peter is so interested in pre-war cards. I think it is always inspiring to see the relative youth of the hobby to be interested in more things than shiny refractors and game-used inserts cards. Doesn't Peter have the unofficial record for most PSA 10 Mantle cards owned before the age of 25? ~ms

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12-01-2004, 11:34 PM

Posted By: Trae R.Even more mainstream coverage: <a href="http://sportsillustrated.cnn.com/2004/baseball/mlb/wires/11/30/2010.ap.bbo.baseball.cards.record.0259/index.html" target=_new>http://sportsillustrated.cnn.com/2004/baseball/mlb/wires/11/30/2010.ap.bbo.baseball.cards.record.0259/index.html</a>

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12-02-2004, 07:31 AM

Posted By: JimBTHe modified quote is from Casablanca. JimB

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12-02-2004, 07:53 AM

Posted By: Julieround up the usual suspects.

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12-05-2004, 10:16 PM

Posted By: JulieI didn't know he even knew what PSA WAS...

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12-07-2004, 02:33 PM

Posted By: Scott Elkinsstates Mastronet "Brokered" the deal for the 1914 CJ set! So, there goes the theories that they would have left $$$$$ from breaking the set up out the window. Also, I noticed going through several back catalogs - Mastronet NEVER broke up high grade sets! Just like people complained about on this BB before in posts - their lots in their auctions seem to be catered to the dealers (who then break them up for a profit). I know the catalog with the "Southern Gentleman's" collection in it had SEVERAL HIGH GRADE sets which were sold intact (and the winning bidders could have made a profit). I guess this all is not even relevant now, since we know from the horse's mouth that Mastronet brokered the sell! However, through my research of old Mastronet Catalogs - they just DO NOT break sets up - too much time, trouble and money I guess. Plus, that leaves the dealers with the big pocket books to bid on them (to break them up and resell the sets themselves for a profit).

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12-07-2004, 02:46 PM

Posted By: Marc S.Scott: Mastro did break their high-grade 1954 Wilson Franks set up into three or four lots last year, as I recall. Also, please do not forget their Spotlight Auctions in the 2000/2001 time period. Basically they took the 1950s PSA-graded sets of an advanced collector and sold them on a card-by-card basis solely through their online auction entity. It seemed to work very well for them at the time - but the sustainability of that was ensured by a supply of a six to ten sets that were able to be broken up and sold separately. It would not work so well on a one-off basis. Also - I'm pretty sure that Mastro has had very large single card runs from the 1915 CJ set and the 1933 Goudey set in the past. Perhaps not entire sets - but dozen and dozens of high-grade examples that were sold individually. ~ms