Your chance to vote for the HOF [Archive]

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11-30-2004, 11:52 AM

Posted By: jay behrensESPN just posted this. Just more proof why fans shouldn't be voting for HOFers. Mattingly has no business pulling 50% or Tommy John getting more votes than Jack Morris. <a href="http://proxy.espn.go.com/chat/sportsnation/ballot?event_id=1021" target=_new>http://proxy.espn.go.com/chat/sportsnation/ballot?event_id=1021</a> my votes: Blyleven Morris Rice Boggs Sandberg Smith Jay I saw weird stuff in that place last night. Weird, strange, sick, twisted, eerie, godless, evil stuff. And I want in.

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11-30-2004, 11:54 AM

Posted By: Hal LewisBoggs and Sandberg only.

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11-30-2004, 12:01 PM

Posted By: Marc S.Jay - although I understand your logic and disgust - since it takes 75% to get enshrined - I could give a rat's ass if Mattingly gets over or under 50%, just as long as he doesn't get to Cooperstown.... 91.1% Wade Boggs - .328 BA, 1,014 RBI, 3,010 hits over 18 seasons 59.0% Ryne Sandberg - .285 BA, 1,061 RBI, 282 HR over 16 seasons 48.9% Andre Dawson - .279 BA, 1,591 RBI, 438 HR over 21 seasons 46.4% Rich Gossage - 124-107, 310 saves, 3.01 ERA over 22 seasons 45.7% Don Mattingly - .307 BA, 1,099 RBI, 222 HR over 14 seasons 41.1% Lee Smith - 71-92, 478 saves, 3.03 ERA over 18 seasons 39.7% Jim Rice - .298 BA, 1,451 RBI, 382 HR over 16 seasons 31.1% Bert Blyleven - 287-250, 3.31 ERA over 22 seasons 28.4% Bruce Sutter - 68-71, 300 saves, 2.83 ERA over 12 seasons 28.1% Jack Morris - 254-186, 3.90 ERA over 18 seasons 27.9% Tommy John - 288-231, 3.34 ERA over 26 seasons 21.3% Dale Murphy - .265 BA, 1,266 RBI, 398 HR over 18 seasons 18.3% Alan Trammell - .285, 1,003 RBI, 185 HR over 20 seasons 14.1% Steve Garvey - .294 BA, 1,308 RBI, 272 HR over 19 seasons 11.6% Willie McGee - .295, 856 RBI, 352 stolen bases over 18 seasons 11.3% Darryl Strawberry - .259 BA, 1,000 RBI, 335 HR over 17 seasons 11.1% Dave Parker - .290 BA, 1,493 RBI, 339 HR over 19 seasons 6.9% Jim Abbott - 87-108, 4.25 ERA over 10 seasons (no-hitter on 9/4/93) 4.7% Dave Concepcion - .267 BA, 950 RBI, 101 HR over 19 seasons 4.7% Chili Davis - .274 BA, 1,372 RBI, 350 HR over 19 seasons 4.4% Otis Nixon - .270 BA, 318 RBI, 620 stolen bases over 17 seasons 3.7% Jack McDowell - 127-87, 3.85 ERA over 12 seasons 2.3% Jeff Montgomery - 46-52, 304 saves, 3.27 ERA over 13 seasons 1.8% Terry Steinbach - .271 BA, 745 RBI, 162 HR over 14 seasons 1.1% Tom Candiotti - 151-164, 3.73 ERA over 16 seasons 0.8% Mark Langston - 179-158, 3,97 ERA over 16 seasons 0.7% Tony Phillips - .266 BA, 819 RBI, 160 HR over 18 seasons Total Votes: 13,375

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11-30-2004, 12:20 PM

Posted By: warshawlawBoggs (a no-brainer), Lee Smith and Jack Morris. Pitchers like Blyleven and John have big cumulative statistics but are not hall-worthy because they were not dominating. And yes, I'd not have voted for Sutton, either.

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11-30-2004, 12:47 PM

Posted By: jay behrensI had never seen Rice's and Mattingly's stats next to each other before and am more convinced than ever that MAttingly is the overrated player I believe him to be. Rice had 352 more RBI and 160 more HR playing only 2 more years. I am also still convinced taht if Hrbek and Mattingly had swapped teams, we would be talking about Hrbek instead of Mattingly. I still don't understand how people can pass over Lee Smith. Ever year that passes just proves what an amazing career he had. Relievers have become like RBs in the NFL, they can expect to have about a 5 year career. If you can make it 10 years, you are on the verge of greatness for that position. Jay I saw weird stuff in that place last night. Weird, strange, sick, twisted, eerie, godless, evil stuff. And I want in.

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11-30-2004, 12:52 PM

Posted By: BryanBoggs and Sandberg only. I just do not see anyone else that really stands out to me as HOF material. If Boggs doesn't get in - then baseball has really gone to the dogs - or at least the HOF voters.

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11-30-2004, 03:23 PM

Posted By: warshawlawDonny Baseball was all world for 6 years then injured his back and was never the same, but hung on for another several years as a very good player. I think Mattingly gets HOF consideration because of the stellar first half of his career, but is not considered a candidate by many bcause he played several years as a shell of his former self. Hrbek is not an appropriate comparison because of the uneven nature of Mattingly's performance. Hrbek was never one of the 5 best players in baseball for a multi-year period. What is more intriguing is to compare Mattingly's career to Kirby Puckett. Statistically, they are very close. IMHO he proves it is better to leave baseball relatively rapidly while at the top rather than hanging in there as a good or very good player, unless you have unassailable stats already, like Rickey Henderson. The Rice analogy to Mattingly isn't really on point because of the effect of the injury on Mattingly. Rice is one of those very good for a very long time guys with a season or two at the peak. I also think that Blyleven, John and a few others (don't know if they are eligible yet, but Harold Baines and Fred McGriff will fall into this category) who were very good for a very long time but never great are subject to debate for the HOF because of the misleading nature of the statistics as the day to day of their careers fades away. I also think that Eddie Murray was overrated and was not a good HOF candidate under the criteria I would like to see applied, but he met the statistical criteria that many mechanically apply to election. I saw him as more like Don Sutton. I tend to be very snobby about the HOF. I want guys with bunches of batting titles, multiple 20 game seasons, etc., guys who were clearly in the top echelons of the game at the time they were playing, not guys who were good for 30-100-.300 for ten years and were around 25-85-.280 for the rest of their careers, or who won 15-18 games a year with no Cy Young awards. What I don't think makes the HOF is 20 years of 25 HR and 150 hits (.250 average for 600 AB), even though it adds up to 3,000 hits and 500 HR for the career. Needless to say, I dont' believe in applying any rigid number as a hard rule basis for election. After all, 3,000 hits, 500 HR or 3,000 strikeouts has no independent value; they are simply the largest round numbers that players can reasonably be expected to attain. To me, the key is how you get there, not just that you got there.

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11-30-2004, 03:33 PM

Posted By: three25hitsBoggs and Sanberg only for the new guys.

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11-30-2004, 04:21 PM

Posted By: ScottI voted for Sandberg, Mattingly and Boggs.

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11-30-2004, 04:35 PM

Posted By: Greg EcklundBoggs and Lee Smith for me...no Sandberg

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11-30-2004, 04:36 PM

Posted By: HowieStrawberry. He'd be a blast at the induction ceremony.

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11-30-2004, 07:09 PM

Posted By: MarkI wouldn't be surprised to see 3-4 of those listed to get in between this year and next year..the class of '06 is very weak IMHO: Rick Aguilera, Tim Belcher, Will Clark, Alex Fernandez, Gary Gaetti, Dwight Gooden, Ozzie Guillen, Juan Guzman, Orel Hershiser, Gregg Jefferies, Lance Johnson, Doug Jones, Roberto Kelly, Mickey Morandini, Hal Morris, Jaime Navarro, Luis Polonia, Mike Stanley, Walt Weiss, John Wetteland, Mark Whiten

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11-30-2004, 10:49 PM

Posted By: jay behrensI really don't get why people think so little of Rice. He was the Barry Bonds of his day. Nobody, I mean nobody, wanted to see him step up to the plate in his prime. You can't say this about Brett, Schmidt, Yount and other contemporaries. He was the first player in over 30 years to get 400 total bases in a season, and took another 15 years before anyone did it again. He too seems to suffer from the fact that his skills deteriorated rapidly. I've said it once and I'll say it again, if Mattingly plays anywhere but with the Yankees, no one is breathing a word about him being in the HOF. He's Steve Garvey without a glove. And yes, I know he won a ton of GGs, but we all know you win that award for your bat, not your defense. Hrbek was a far better fielder than Mattingly could ever have dreamed of being. Jay I saw weird stuff in that place last night. Weird, strange, sick, twisted, eerie, godless, evil stuff. And I want in.

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12-01-2004, 05:31 AM

Posted By: Pcelli60Jay I totally agree with your observation on Mattingly. As well as your feelings on Rice.Also as a devoted National League guy I would add Dave Parker to the mix..But the only two locks from that list are Boggs and Sandberg...I would also add a consideration for Allie Reynolds and his .630 winning percentage. A great money pitcher not far enough in the past to be forgotten. Hell if you can put in Newhouser and Bunning and Drysdale, why not Allie?...

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12-01-2004, 06:07 AM

Posted By: Jay MillerOnly Boggs. Remove groping Kirby and replace him with Donny Baseball. They have the same stats only Donny is a good citizen, not a dirt bag like Kirby.

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12-01-2004, 06:21 AM

Posted By: Gilbert MainesIt is all in the numbers. 3000 hits + 3000 strikeouts. Boggs and Blyleven get in. The rest of the wannabees are now never wases. Except the Straw. Who can argue with three suspensions and an 11 mo. vacation with free room and board on the taxpayers. If Mattingly had Dawson's HRs, or Dawson had Mattingly's BA; they would be Rice. Which is still is not good enough. We have sufficient dilution in the Hall. Go with the numbers.

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12-01-2004, 10:18 AM

Posted By: MarkSince '99, the Hall has averaged 2 admittees per year (though immediately prior to that, it was less). Skeptical me thinks that pace may continue. On average, I don't see two "locks" per year among the future new candidates which could bode well for on-the-cusp guys like Smith, Rice, etc. Through 2010, I only see as "locks" Gwynn, Ripken, McGwire and Henderson, with Raines likely. Who am I missing? That would only be 5 in as many years. *********** 2006: Rick Aguilera, Tim Belcher, Will Clark, Alex Fernandez, Gary Gaetti, Dwight Gooden, Ozzie Guillen, Juan Guzman, Orel Hershiser, Gregg Jefferies, Lance Johnson, Doug Jones, Roberto Kelly, Mickey Morandini, Hal Morris, Jaime Navarro, Luis Polonia, Mike Stanley, Walt Weiss, John Wetteland, Mark Whiten 2007: Harold Baines, Derek Bell, Dante Bichette, Bobby Bonilla, Jeff Brantley, Jay Buhner, Ken Caminiti, Jose Canseco, Eric Davis, Tony Fernandez, Tony Gwynn, Darryl Hamilton, Pete Harnisch, Charlie Hayes, Glenallen Hill, Ken Hill, Stan Javier, Wally Joyner, Ramon Martinez, Mark McGwire, Paul O’Neill, Gregg Olson, Cal Ripken Jr., Bret Saberhagen, Jeff Shaw, Kevin Tapani, Devon White, Bobby Witt 2008: Shawon Dunston, Travis Fryman, David Justice, Mike Morgan, Tim Raines, Randy Velarde 2009: Mark Grace, Rickey Henderson, Dean Palmer, Dan Plesac, Matt Williams 2010: Edgar Martinez, Robin Ventura

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12-01-2004, 10:43 AM

Posted By: Hal LewisYou are missing nobody. The ONLY locks who are currently retired from baseball are: BOGGS GWYNN McGWIRE HENDERSON RIPKEN Everyone else is still playing: CLEMENS MADDUX SOSA BONDS PALMEIRO R. JOHNSON

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12-01-2004, 11:23 AM

Posted By: jay behrensYou are right, the picking are pretty slim for the next 5 years. I am a huge Tim Taines fans. Even with a ton of SBs and batting title to his credit, I don't think he is going to get much support. I really have a problem with the mentality of voters that goes "well, this year's class is pretty pathetic, so we batter take a look at who we've been passing over for the last 5-10 years". You either belong or you don't. A career is not like a fine wine. It's doesn't get better with age. I'd rather see a "one and done" system. You get one year of eligibility and that's it. The whole reason the 15 year rule was created was for the early days when they didn't want to flood the Hall with entrants early on. The 15 year waiting period is now antiquated and no longer needed. You should get one pass thru the Veterans Committee 20 years after your career is over. This will go a long way to solving the dilution problem. Jay I saw weird stuff in that place last night. Weird, strange, sick, twisted, eerie, godless, evil stuff. And I want in.