Clemens Takes Cy Young [Archive] - Net54baseball.com Forums

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11-09-2004, 12:02 PM

Posted By: Gary B.Anyone know when the AL Cy Young award will be announced or either of the MVP awards? One of the most impressive stats for Clemens is he is now at 328-164 which is exactly twice the amounts of wins as losses - that puts him (at least on one website) at tied for 4th as the best ever winning percentage in the modern era behind Pedro Martinez, Whitey Ford and Lefty Grove and tied with Vic Raschi. Pedro Martinez has an unbelievable 182-76 record. Of course his numbers could still drop. Also, winning percentage is naturally greatly affected by what teams you play on, but still these are impressive numbers by any standards.

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11-09-2004, 12:34 PM

Posted By: john/z28jdBoth managers are named tomorrow, al cy young will be given to Johan Santana on thursday and the nl mvp will be announced Monday[If its anyone besides Bonds id be shocked] al mvp on tuesday

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11-09-2004, 02:01 PM

Posted By: peteyou know, bonds just gets under my skin...when you think about it other than hitting homeruns and walking, he's not that good of a player. he bobbles balls in the outfield, cant throw that great and he's getting MVP because he hits homeruns...i know you will say he carried his team which i agree, but he didnt carry his team far enough. i think it should go to someone like ortiz, pujos, damon or ramirez...and thats not just because im a boston fan either. it can go to a hand full of other guys too. look what finley did when he came over to the dodgers. pete-

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11-09-2004, 02:58 PM

Posted By: Gary B.trying to be a good boy. randy johnson didn't really stand much of a chance - pitching for a good team, it would have been a much closer race, but he just couldn't overcome that win-loss total. i sincerely hope that johnson gets to play for another team, and that we get at least 1 more season out of clemens. if anyone deserved to win besides johnson, i was surely clemens - if he retires before next season, he'd certainly be retiring on top, but the guy can obviously still throw and at his age is still one of the very best pitchers in the game. it would be a shame to deprive baseball of that talent, but it's not like he hasn't left his mark in a big way - he's going to just coast into the hall 5 years after he calls it quits - truly a pleasure to watch pitch.

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11-09-2004, 03:04 PM

Posted By: al davisthis is the last time i'm going to remind you to stay on topic.

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11-09-2004, 03:07 PM

Posted By: Pcelli60I think 'ol Roger The Rocket will be back next year..And why not an 8th CY?

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11-09-2004, 04:23 PM

Posted By: Jay MillerNotice that Clemens has the highest W-L percentage for any pitcher with over 300 wins. Pretty amazing when you think about it. As Al Leiter said during the playoffs--we could have been watching the greatest pitcher ever.

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11-09-2004, 04:35 PM

Posted By: Pcelli60You dont actually believe that?

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11-09-2004, 05:57 PM

Posted By: Julie No, I don't think it's a fake... <img src="http://www.network54.com/Realm/tmp/1100057049.JPG">

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11-09-2004, 06:28 PM

Posted By: TBobI'd still take the Big Train or Lefty Grove and in a one game winner take it all contest, Carl Hubbell.

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11-09-2004, 10:07 PM

Posted By: runscottI didn't see any of those guys pitch, but I DID see Clemens several times, and he was awesome.

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11-10-2004, 12:56 AM

Posted By: jay behrensBill, I hope you're happy my tongue is bleeding. Jay I saw weird stuff in that place last night. Weird, strange, sick, twisted, eerie, godless, evil stuff. And I want in.

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11-11-2004, 06:05 AM

Posted By: warshawlawwas Nolan Ryan. I realize it is popular to bash him for his near .500 WL but when he was on, he was not just unhittable but untouchable. Nice mean streak too. Clemens is a big Ryan fan and patterned himself after Ryan. If we are talking about one game, strength v. strength, I'd have to take Ryan over Clemens. Wish I'd seen Grove, Koufax and Feller...and Johnson too (who is the greatest of all time, IMHO). Hubbell is intriguing because he is the only non-power pitcher mentioned thus far. His performance in the AS game was an example of how dominant he could be, and he had the rep of winning the big games. Let's not forget Matty either; he pitched a shut out for an entire WS, a record that is never going to be beaten. As far as MVP goes, I'd be surprised if Ichiro doesn't take it in the AL. While I'd like to see Beltre win it in the NL, I think Bonds will do it again. <img src="http://www.network54.com/Realm/tmp/1100180046.JPG">

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11-11-2004, 06:14 AM

Posted By: Gilbert MainesWhile we are not forgetting, let us also not forget Spahn: the only modern pitcher with 350+ wins.

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11-11-2004, 07:08 AM

Posted By: ElliotI guess Lefty Grove doesn't count. 680 winning % vs. 667 for Clemens.

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11-11-2004, 07:28 AM

Posted By: Jay MillerElliot--You obviously are not a lawyer. I said OVER 300 wins.

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11-11-2004, 08:29 AM

Posted By: PASJDOf course I didn't see him, but judging by his remarkable ERA (even relative to the other great pitchers of the time) and his 400 plus wins for a largely inept team, I have to think Walter Johnson is the greatest pitcher ever. Nolan Ryan, I believe, was somewhat overrated. When he was really on, he was of course nearly unhittable, but he frequently wasn't, and his overall ERA and W/L percentage are not that great -- look em up. For pitchers I have seen pitch (whether in person or on TV), I think the best is Koufax and it is hard to really choose among Gibson, Seaver, Clemens and Carlton.

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11-11-2004, 08:40 AM

Posted By: Gilbert MainesOf those that I have seen pitch Id have to rate Wilhelm near the top. But Score was sure heading toward making fans forget Feller. I think that either of these guys are in Kofax's league, and Ryan's. But not in Spahn's.

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11-11-2004, 09:02 AM

Posted By: PASJDNO Cy Young awards. A mere TWO 20 win seasons, none after 1974. Lost almost as many as he won, 324-292. Very respectable but not spectacular 3.19 ERA. A great pitcher, of course, but nowhere near the top.

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11-11-2004, 09:27 AM

Posted By: warshawlawBut what I said was that Ryan was the best I've ever seen when he was on. I had to except anyone who played before 1975 because I haven't SEEN them play. WL is to some extent a function of your teammates' skills; I really don't consider it has highly in deciding who was the best pitcher. Look at Randy Johnson's 2004 year. His WL was mediocre because his team stinks. My personal preference is the kuckleballer; I love watching a guy lob pitty-pat throws towards the plate and leave hitters twisting in the dirt, but when it comes to all-time selections, I have to go with power and big curves to start, specialty pitches to relieve. After all, if you can't see it, you can't hit it, and as Spahn observed, pitching is about disrupting batters' timing. I'll take Johnson, Clemens, Grove and Koufax as starters and relieve with Wilhelm, and let the hitters just try to adjust to the butterfly after seven or eight innings of hellacious heat and overhand curves and splitters.

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11-11-2004, 09:57 AM

Posted By: Glen VHow can people compare pitchers from different teams and come to conclusions that similar pitchers are so different. I think Ryan, Clemens, and R. Johnson are all great. Yet many people rip on Ryan, put Clemens on a pedestal, and ignore R. Johnson. A complaint about Ryan from above: "Very respectable but not spectacular 3.19 ERA." Clemen's ERA is 3.18 - but apparently that is spectacular? Johnson's is 3.07, good enough for the HOF? One season Clemens was 13-6 with a 4.35 ERA for the Yankees. Four different seasons his ERA has been over 4.00. Without the run support from the Red Sox and Yankees what would his record be? How about if Ryan or Johnson pitched for the Yankees? All three are great pitchers and should be in the HOF. Can't we give them the credit they deserve?

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11-11-2004, 10:09 AM

Posted By: PASJDMaking W Johnson's WL all the more impressive. Someone once did a calculation that if he had pitched for the Giants and Mathewson for the Senators, Johnson would have won something like 480 games and Mathewson about 100 less than he did.

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11-11-2004, 10:09 AM

Posted By: runscottWe all know he had a weak ERA and barely over .500 W/L record - that's not news by any stretch. But those of us who saw him pitch (and I've seen him about 20 times, with the Astros and Rangers) all agree that he was one of the greatest, and when on, as dominating as anyone we've seen. The stories and "GOTT" c.d. indicate that Walter Johnson must have been just as dominant, and more consistent.

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11-11-2004, 10:55 AM

Posted By: Tom Boblitt5714 K's, 7 no hitters......nuff said. Put him on the Reds, Yankees or Red Sox in the 1970's, Cardinals in the 80's, Braves in the 1990's. He'd have 400-425 wins. Wouldn't be much discussion then........

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11-17-2004, 06:28 AM

Posted By: Gilbert MainesRyan sure was a dominating pitcher during a long career. And he certainly doesn't have to be the best ever in order to be worthy of recognition. And he is not, in my estimation, the best ever. Nor is he even the best recently, based on the measurement tools I use for evaluating overpowering pitchers. That is Randy Johnson strikes out far more opposing batters than Ryan's average, and Kofax had about equal success in striking out hitters to that of Ryan. But Kofax had a significantly lower ERA than Ryan, while Johnson's is only slightly lower. This analysis indicates that both Kofax and Randy Johnson have outperformed Ryan. But Ryan pitched for nearly as many innings as Sandy and Randy combined. As has been pointed out, this longevity could have brought Ryan well into the 350+ victory club if ...., and that potential achievement alone likely would have settled many of the Ryan naysayers. But it didn't happen. Does that matter?