Negro League Cards???

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Posted By: <b>Gary B.</b><p>Someone posting on the buy/sell/trade thread got me thinking.<br /><br />Were cards ever produced during the years the Negro leagues were active? I would imagine if so they would be rare and valuable, but it's something I rarely if ever have heard discussed.<br /><br />If any do, I would love to see some scans in addition to any info people have. Thanks!

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Posted By: <b>Bryan</b><p>I would love to see a real josh gibson but I don't think one was ever made. I'm curious to see what others have to say.

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Posted By: <b>Mark</b><p>Gary, there were cards made of Negro League Hall of Famers during their playing days in Cuba, Puerto Rico, Venezuela, Mexico, and the Dominican Republic. Check out Ryan C.'s website: <a href="http://www.cubanbaseballcards.com/NegroHOFers.html" target=_new>http://www.cubanbaseballcards.com/NegroHOFers.html</a><br />for more info. I recently bought cards of Dandridge and Dihigo from Ryan.

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Posted By: <b>Bryan</b><p>Does anyone happen to own the Josh Gibson card? How rare is it? I would love to get my hands on that one. This is the first time I have heard that thecard even exists so this is a pleasure for me since I now have a new card for my must-have list.

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Posted By: <b>Paul</b><p>Ryan is definitely the expert, and his website is informative. The most common cards picturing Negro League players are from Cuba from the 1940s, with the most common HOFers being Dihigo and Dandridge. They used to be pretty cheap, but now even a thrashed one is probably at least $100, and one in nice shape is probably several hundred.<br /><br />There is also a Monte Irvin Cuban card from the late 40s, but it is very rare.<br /><br />Also in the late 40s and early 50s, there were cards issued of Negro League players in Puerto Rico. These are very rare. The only two active HOFers that I know of were Leon Day and Hilton Smith. There's also a card of Josh Gibson, issued shortly after he died. SCD lists it at $75K. There are also cards of Rogers Hornsby as a manager.<br /><br />Lastly, there are the cards from the 1920s, and one or two sets from the 1910s. These are also very rare. The HOFers known to exist are Charleston and Lloyd. There is speculation that others may have been made and someday may be found, but as far as I know, that's it for now. Ryan would be your best source on more information.

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Posted By: <b>Paul</b><p>I didn't read Bryan's last post about the Gibson very carefully. Ryan owned the Gibson and sold or traded it. I don't know if he's at liberty to say who the new owner is. There may be only one known example of this card. I don't know for sure. Again, Ryan would be the one to ask.

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Posted By: <b>Anonymous</b><p>I went to Ryan's site and he says this:<br /><br />"There were cards of HOF Negro Leaguers produced in Cuba, Puerto Rico, Venezuela, Mexico, and the Dominican Republic."<br /><br />Does anyone know if the sets these cards came from were exclusively for the Negro Leagues? Were ANY sets ever created exclusively for the Negro Leagues? It's hard to believe that no American issued sets were ever created while the leagues were still active, but I guess not...

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Posted By: <b>Paul</b><p>The Cuban cards were created mostly for the Cuban leagues, occassionally for the US major leagues, once for a US minor league in Florida, but never for the US Negro Leagues. The Puerto Rican cards were create for the Puerto Rican League. The "Negro League" cards are actually Cuban League and Puerto Rican League cards. Negro Leaguers commonly played in both these leagues and as a result have cards in those sets. One player is shown in his Negro League uniform -- Don Newcombe, but he is listed as a member of a Cuban team.<br /><br />I'm not real familiar with the Dominican and Mexican cards, but suspect the same is true with those cards.<br /><br />As far as anyone knows, there are no US cards of Negro League players (except the Puerto Rican cards, since Puerto Rico is part of the US). There's one possible exception. About 3 or 4 years ago, there was a card of HOFer John Henry Lloyd on ebay. It was long and skinny, like the Canadian Willards Champions cards of Ruth, Cobb, and Collins. It was blank backed. No one knew anything about its origins. I bid on the card and lost. I believe Hal Lewis also bid on the card. I can't remember if he won or lost.<br /><br />

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Posted By: <b>Ryan Christoff</b><p>First, let me say that here are no "Negro League" baseball cards. The only cards that feature Negro Leaguers are from foreign countries. <br /><br />If you see an issue that is purported to be an American one featuring a Negro Leaguer in a Negro League uniform you can be almost certain that it is fake. The only reason I say "almost" instead of "absolutely" is that it is literally impossible to rule out any possibility of what was or wasn't produced as far as a baseball card issue. Let's just say I haven't seen one and I don't expect to see one. And this is EXACTLY what I collect so I'm always on the lookout.<br /><br />Take, for example, the fake Pop Lloyd card Paul mentioned earlier. Let's put that "card" in the "guaranteed fake" category and remove it from the "possible exception" category right now. The image used is one of the most frequently seen of Lloyd and pictures him as a member of the Brooklyn Royal Giants around 1919. Anyone could easily obtain a copy of it from the HOF in Cooperstown or scan it from one of the countless number of books on the Negro Leagues which it appears in. <br /><br />When this "card" was listed on ebay a few years ago I received several e-mails from people asking my opinion about it. I said then and still say now, THE CARD IS A FAKE. I was surprised we didn't see more fakes like this turn up after that because some people, in their eternal optimism (or greed-induced gullibility) like to reward these scammers for whatever time it takes to cook up (or soak in tea, or tape to their muffler or whatever else it is they do to "age" something) fake baseball cards. The con who made this one pocketed $1,025 for his time. <br /><br />I follow this market closely, primarily as a collector, but also as a dealer. I saved the scan of the fake Lloyd when it was on ebay. Here is is:<br /><img src="http://www.network54.com/Realm/tmp/1098171842.JPG"> <br /><br />Pretty good fake. Still fake.<br /><br />The list of Negro League HOFers on my website is the most accurate and up to date one I know of. There are several "cards" that have been sold by major auction houses that are not on this checklist because the "cards" were actually photographs, not cards, or the issue itself does not exist and was a fraudulent creation to begin with. I encourage anyone to e-mail me if they know of any additions and I will gladly add them to the checklist once I have researched the issue to determine its legitimacy.<br /><br />I think one of the reasons that the base of collectors is still relatively small for these kinds of cards is that they are almost too rare for their own good. Many have less than 10 known examples of a particular card, some only 1 or 2. As a result, many people are simply unaware that they even exist. This has been slowly changing over the past several years, but is still largely the case. <br /><br />Most people who are trying to get one card of every HOFer are aware of players like Oscar Charleston or Pop Lloyd, but many don't realize that there were legitimate cards of them issued in the 1920's. Some Negro Leaguers have cards as far back as 1909. These are obviously very rare and often cost 5 figures to purchase. This is one reason some HOF collectors choose to live with commemorative issues produced in the 1980's or 90's or more recent "Greats of the Game" kind of issues made by Fleer, Upper Deck, etc. I'm sure there are other HOF collectors who only have commemorative issues because they assume that is all that exists. <br /><br />Sorry for rambling.<br /><br />-Ryan<br /><br /><br /><br />

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Posted By: <b>Gary B.</b><p>In fact thanks so much for answering my questions so thoroughly. Quite frankly, I'm amazed that this is all that exists of these players in terms of cards. I guess the market really wasn't there (or the money) for even a local issue of any kind in the States. Even the Pacific Coast League and other minor leagues had cards, but I guess this will forever be a part of history that was criminally uncommemorated (if that's even a word) by such things. Sad.

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Posted By: <b>Hal Lewis</b><p>Paul...<br /><br />I did not win the Lloyd card, and after reading Ryan's great post, I am glad that I didn't!

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Posted By: <b>Gilbert Maines</b><p>Gary: an interesting (to me) subset of Negro League players is that grouping of players who did make it to the majors. There are dozens of cards in this grouping, all readily available although not always inexpensive. Players including Banks, Mays, Aaron, Paige, Campanella and others were all former Negro Leaguers.

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Posted By: <b>Ryan Christoff</b><p>Gilbert,<br /><br />Great point about those who did play in the Majors. In the late 1940's and early 1950's a number of one-time Negro Leaguers played in the Majors. Many have American cards that can be picked up inexpensively.<br /><br />Here's a few that, in my opinion, don't get credit for how good their non-Major League careers were:<br /><br />Dan Bankhead<br />Joe Black<br />Buster Clarkson<br />Luke Easter<br />Monte Irvin<br />Luis "Canena" Marquez<br />Minnie Minoso<br />Pat Scantlebury<br />Bob Thurman<br />Quincy Trouppe<br />Artie Wilson<br /><br />I don't think all of those players have American cards, but most of them do. There are plenty of others that could be added to that list.<br /><br />-Ryan<br /><br />

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Posted By: <b>Gilbert Maines</b><p>Thats great information Ryan! More than half of those cards I do not have yet, and didn't even know I needed. I will add them to my wantlist.<br /><br />Thanks, Gil

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Posted By: <b>Julie</b><p>how <br />"original" a copy can you get of that?

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Posted By: <b>Paul</b><p>Now I'm also glad I didn't win that Lloyd card.<br /><br />In retrospect, it should have been obvious it was a fake. I still remember the seller's story. He got the card from his grandfather, a resident of Kentucky if I remember correctly. His grandfather was a big fan of the Negro Leagues, but this was the only card he had. And the seller didn't know the card pictured Lloyd. That was just a happy coincidence that the seller didn't even mention.<br /><br />At the time, I was a little suspicious, but didn't dismiss the card completely. It was the first time I had seen the grandpa tale on ebay. I guess this should be a reminder of why the grandpa tale appears so often on ebay. If you haven't seen it 100 times before, it is very easy to think that it might be true. I'm sure in many cases, people believe these tall tales because they're greedy and hope to strike it rich. But in this case (and I bet I can speak for Hal as well) you want to believe because it would be such a cool card if it was real.

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Posted By: <b>Hal Lewis</b><p>Actually Paul, I was knew it was fake, but I was paid by the seller to act as a shill so that YOU would bid on the card and buy it. <br /><br />(just kidding, of course) <img src="/images/wink.gif" height=14 width=14>

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Posted By: <b>Max Weder</b><p>Further to Ryan's post about American cards for Cuban players in the 40s and 50s, here's a scan of the front and back of a Cuban card of Monte Irvin. It's a blow-up of the front of the card. I don't have the card, and Monte signed the copy as part of a fund-raiser for Conrado (Connie) Marrero, who is alive and well at 94 and living in Cuba but on a very meagre government pension, with no ability to receive assistance from such organizations such as BAT. Marrero was also three months short of receiving a major league pension (which would be moot even with sufficient service, because he wouldn't be able to receive it in Cuba)<br /><br />I don't know anything more about the card set other than Marrero also has a card in it.<br /><br /><img src="http://www.ettinger.ca/monteirving.jpg">

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Posted By: <b>Ryan Christoff</b><p>Max,<br /><br />That's not a card. It's a copy of an image from a booklet produced during the 1948-49 season by Trinidad y Hno. They did one for each of the 4 teams. Each booklet contains a colorized image of a player on each page. <br /><br />The Almendares team booklet, which is the one this Irvin is from, also has Chuck Connors in it. They are on a thin paper stock. Your scan is either a page torn out of the booklet, or a photocopy of it. <br /><br />Currently, Monte Irvin only has one known Cuban card. It's from the 1948-49 El Indio issue. <br /><br />Hope that helps,<br /><br />-Ryan<br /><br /><br /><br />

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Posted By: <b>Max Weder</b><p>Thanks for the information Ryan. I should have not assumed it was a card when the copy was presented to me.<br /><br />But you've clearly foiled my nefarious plan to cut these up and send them to Roy for AAA grading.... <img src="/images/happy.gif" height=14 width=14><br /><br />Max

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Posted By: <b>Ryan Christoff</b><p>Bryan,<br /><br />Here's a scan of my Josh Gibson:<br /><br /><img src="http://www.network54.com/Realm/tmp/1098171871.JPG"> <br /><br />There are 5 examples known. This is by far the nicest. Some day my grandchildren will have to decide what to do with it.<br /><br />-Ryan<br /><br />

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Posted By: <b>Mike McGrail</b><p>This is not real, but I really like it!<br /><br /><img src="http://www.network54.com/Realm/tmp/1098283475.JPG"> <br /><br />Ciao <br /><br />Mike

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Posted By: <b>Max Weder</b><p>One of the first baseball paintings done by my better half:<br /><br /><img src="http://www.ettinger.ca/josh.jpg">

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Posted By: <b>Gilbert Maines</b><p>I like it too, Mike. I wonder how much you could make on eBay with it.

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Posted By: <b>Mike McGrail</b><p>I can't list the Gibson on eBay as it doesn't even physically exist yet. The card is still only a digital image at this stage. I am, however, planning on having a batch actually made in the next few months. Still trying to find a printer here in Holland to help.<br /><br />Mike

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Posted By: <b>Gilbert Maines</b><p>Since when is "not physically existing" a criteria for eBay listings?

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Posted By: <b>Mike McGrail</b><p>... which side of the SCAM line you are working from! 8-)<br /><br />Mike

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Posted By: <b>Gilbert Maines</b><p>The excuse is to get a feeling for your sales potential before you go into production. Should you print a dozen or 200? No, I am not recommending listing an item which does not exist. I am kidding!<br /><br />But why not send some in to PRO, AAA, NASA etc. to see how your slabbed prices compare with your raw cards?