Knickerbocker's Pennant

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Posted By: <b>Dan</b><p> My looking for a book in my basement, I found a late 1930's - early 40's era NY Knickerbocker's felt pennant. This was originally my grandfathers and was given to me by my grandmother. My grandfather was an old baseball hisorian and was very fond of the old Knickerbock's team. My grandmother said he that he purchased the pennant on a trip to Cooperstown. Anyway, do these old pennants have any value?? I was going to try and post a picture but it is 34" long and 15" wide at the left side. Thanks.

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Posted By: <b>Mike H</b><p>Dan, Is it 34" including the tassels or without? If the body of the pennant is 34" without the tassels you have an early oversized pennant with potentialy significant value. That value depends on a number of condition factors as well as pennant design (asthetics). Please post a picture(s) for us.

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Posted By: <b>Dan</b><p>The body of the pennant is 34 inches long, it does have tassels but I didnot include these in the description. I will try and post a digital picture tomorrow. Thanks.

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Posted By: <b>Mike H</b><p>That is good Dan, very very good. Does anyone know when the Knickerbockers disbanded?

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Posted By: <b>Dan Bretta</b><p>I'm confused...is this a baseball or basketball pennant? I doubt any kind of pennant exists for the New York Knickerbocker baseball club.

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Posted By: <b>barrysloate</b><p>I was thinking the same thing. The Knickerbockers were an 1840-50's ball club. What Knick team played baseball in the 1940's?

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Posted By: <b>Mike H</b><p>So, when were the Knicks (basketball) formed? Do you suppose it's possible the pennant is from the days of the actual baseball team? Highly unlikely, but possible? If so, it's worth more than it's weight in gold. DAN GET THAT PIC POSTED!!! <br />

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Posted By: <b>Rob D.</b><p>I agree that the existence of an original Knickerbockers baseball pennant is highly unlikely. There was a mention of Cooperstown in the original post. Could it be possible that the Hall of Fame, in its early years, sold "throwback" pennants of 1800s and turn-of-the-century teams?<br /><br />Of course, were that the case, such pennants likely would have turned up before now.

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Posted By: <b>barrysloate</b><p>I can share a great story about the Knickerbocker flag. I know of a letter written by James Whyte Davis, who was a prominent Knickerbocker and the unofficial team historian, which stated that when Davis died, he wished to be wrapped up and buried with the team flag. Then at the bottom of the letter, he drew an accurate color picture of that flag.<br /><br />So if his wish came true, all we have to do is dig him up and the flag is ours!

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Posted By: <b>Keith</b><p>I believe the Knicks basketball team started in the mid 1940's.

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Posted By: <b>Dan</b><p> Ok, I took a digital picture but the file size was 484K and would not load to this message. Please email me at this address (Dan.Beemsterboer@ThompsonHine.com) and I will forward the picture via email. I have had this for around 10 years. I actually forgot I had it until last weekend. The way this was explained to me. My grandfather took then train to Coopertown in the late 30's or early 40's and bought the pennant. He was a baseball historian and I actually have a couple other Knicerbocker items that he gave me, anyway he supposedly bought this pennant and it it supposed to be for the baseball team. I hope you can give me some insight. Thanks.

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Posted By: <b>Dan Bretta</b><p>Dan sent me a pic of the pennant so I could post it for him<br /><a href="http://s22.photobucket.com/albums/b331/nudan92/net54%20resized%20photos/?action=view&current=Picture003.jpg" target="_blank"><img src="http://i22.photobucket.com/albums/b331/nudan92/net54%20resized%20photos/Picture003.jpg" border="0" alt="Photobucket"></a><br /><br />An interesting pennant.

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Posted By: <b>barrysloate</b><p>James Davis's drawing was pretty similar to that, and he of course saw the original. Interesting pennant, and I sense some good story behind it.

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Posted By: <b>Mark</b><p>Interesting pennant, indeed...<br /><br />The good news is that it appears significantly older than "late '30s / early '40s". The structure and style are completely in line with oversized pennants of the early teens.<br /><br />The bad news is that we have no adequate history for the pennant. Who actually declared it to be a Knickerbockers Pennant? What provenance does it have? The "K" alone does not provide adequate evidence.<br /><br />Even being from the teens, this pennant would still be at least 50 years newer than one from the original Knickerbockers' era. Furthermore, I have never seen evidence that triangular-shaped Pennants were even produced as souvenirs that far back. Does anyone have any evidence of this? I was of the belief that baseball pennants originated around the turn of the century. I guess that Barry's description of a "team flag" could fit this piece, but seems like a longshot.<br /><br />I was thinking along the same lines as Rob, but this could be a stretch as well. The fact that it was sold at Cooperstown also presents a dilemma... it could well be an old-time throwback of sorts, but the style is that of the teens. So it was either made to just look that way, or it is really from the teens (and represents something else). Wish I could be of more help on this one...<br />

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Posted By: <b>Dan Bretta</b><p>This is all just conjecture by me, but I wonder if this pennant wasn't made for a re-enactment of the first game played under the Cartwright rules at a special Hall of Fame function.

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Posted By: <b>Mark</b><p>Good possibility, Dan...<br /><br />If not for that specific purpose, I would bet it was for something along those lines. It's definitely not a modern reproduction, and while not likely from the orginal Knickerbockers' era, it is still very old and unique. <br /><br />I am sure it is of significant value... we just need more history on it, to pinpoint its origin.

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Posted By: <b>Dan</b><p> Thanks to all who have responded. I posted this here because I have found this board to be extremely knowledgeable and this was a mystery. My grandfather passed away in 1974. My grandmother lived with my parents and me from about 1985 - until 1996 when she passed away. While living at the house she gave me this pennant, a Ty Cobb decal bat that my grandfather won in 1927 and what looked like a printing plate that had to do with the Knickerbocker's Team. If I get a chance tonight, I will see if I can find it and post pictures of the printing plate. Thanks again for the information.

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Posted By: <b>barrysloate</b><p>Dan- any memorabilia that relates to the Knickerbockers is rare and valuable. Of course, it has to be from the mid-19th century.<br /><br />Curious to see the printing plate.

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Posted By: <b>Brock G.</b><p>For the baseball centinnial in 1939 there was a re-enacment of a 19th century game in Cooperstown. It was held during the week of the 1st HOF class induction so it is likely that your grandfather, being a baseball historian, would of been in Cooperstown on this occasion. I know I have a book with a picture of this re-enactment game somewhere. I will look for it and hopefully get a scan on the picture posted.

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Posted By: <b>Mark</b><p>Those pics would be great... Please be sure to post a picture of the Ty Cobb Decal Bat as well (another terrific item!) It would be great to see it, as there are at least 3 different decal variations that I'm aware of. <br /><br />These decal bats were available as full-size, mid-size and mini bats. Some of the full-sized bats are even purported to be potentially game-used. All of the Cobb Decal Bats are quite valuable, if authentic. Unfortunately, there are now a lot of reproductions hitting ebay and elsewhere! The good news is that it's usually pretty easy to tell the difference.<br /><br />

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Posted By: <b>Brock G.</b><p>Luckily the photo was in the first book I opened. Looks like a "K" on the jersey to me. Could be?<br /><br /><img src="http://i257.photobucket.com/albums/hh212/unconquered-1/lastscan.jpg"><br />

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Posted By: <b>Dan</b><p> The Cobb bat I know is authentic. I have the article in which my grandfather won 3rd place in the Dayton Journal Trivia contest in 1927. His prize was this bat. My grandfather actually used the bat a couple of time in the 40's. The bat has ball marks from this use and part of the decal has pealed off over time. The bat has no cracks, and is full size. It is a TC-40. I will try and get a scan tomorrow.

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Posted By: <b>Dan</b><p> Ok, while looking though the print plate bag, I found a number of interesting items. Including the letter below. It brings up some more questions: 1) Were and when did my grandfather get the pennant, 2) Why did the Hall-Of-Fame send it back and when? I am going to have to talk with my uncles and see if they can shed some light on this. Also I have taken a number of scans of the print plate and it has to deal with James Whyte Davis and his last wishes. Don't know how and why my grandfather ended up with these items. I will try and post the images. Thanks.<br />Ok it won't let me load the images, I get the following error code " upload failed illegal file name. Only alphanumeric charters, period, or underscore allowed in file names". All of my file names are alphanumeric, so don't know what I am doing wrong.

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Posted By: <b>Dan Bretta</b><p>Here you go Dan -<br /><br /><a href="http://s22.photobucket.com/albums/b331/nudan92/net54%20resized%20photos/?action=view&current=a1.jpg" target="_blank"><img src="http://i22.photobucket.com/albums/b331/nudan92/net54%20resized%20photos/a1.jpg" border="0" alt="Photobucket"></a><br /><br /><a href="http://s22.photobucket.com/albums/b331/nudan92/net54%20resized%20photos/?action=view&current=a2-1.jpg" target="_blank"><img src="http://i22.photobucket.com/albums/b331/nudan92/net54%20resized%20photos/a2-1.jpg" border="0" alt="Photobucket"></a><br /><br /><a href="http://s22.photobucket.com/albums/b331/nudan92/net54%20resized%20photos/?action=view&current=a3-1.jpg" target="_blank"><img src="http://i22.photobucket.com/albums/b331/nudan92/net54%20resized%20photos/a3-1.jpg" border="0" alt="Photobucket"></a><br /><br /><a href="http://s22.photobucket.com/albums/b331/nudan92/net54%20resized%20photos/?action=view&current=a4.jpg" target="_blank"><img src="http://i22.photobucket.com/albums/b331/nudan92/net54%20resized%20photos/a4.jpg" border="0" alt="Photobucket"></a><br /><br /><a href="http://s22.photobucket.com/albums/b331/nudan92/net54%20resized%20photos/?action=view&current=a5.jpg" target="_blank"><img src="http://i22.photobucket.com/albums/b331/nudan92/net54%20resized%20photos/a5.jpg" border="0" alt="Photobucket"></a><br /><br /><a href="http://s22.photobucket.com/albums/b331/nudan92/net54%20resized%20photos/?action=view&current=a6.jpg" target="_blank"><img src="http://i22.photobucket.com/albums/b331/nudan92/net54%20resized%20photos/a6.jpg" border="0" alt="Photobucket"></a><br /><br /><a href="http://s22.photobucket.com/albums/b331/nudan92/net54%20resized%20photos/?action=view&current=a7.jpg" target="_blank"><img src="http://i22.photobucket.com/albums/b331/nudan92/net54%20resized%20photos/a7.jpg" border="0" alt="Photobucket"></a>

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Posted By: <b>william</b><p>Sounds like you have a space in your file name. Try changing the name from, for example, knickerbocker pennant.jpg to knickerbocker_pennant.jpg. Having a space between words can cause this error. <br /><br />William

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Posted By: <b>barrysloate</b><p>Wow, so Davis got his wish and was buried with the flag! This is the first time I have seen confirmation of it.<br /><br />The letter I cited previously, which has been in the same place for a very long time, was written by Davis and requests he be draped in the flag when he dies. That's a strange wish when you think about it. I guess you can take it with you.

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Posted By: <b>ramram</b><p>Geez Barry, you must have good eyes. <br /><br />I can't read it! Even when I pull it up on photobucket. Help<br /><br />Rob M.

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Posted By: <b>Dan Bretta</b><p>The scans were sent to me, but the resolution is very low...when I tried to magnify them they immediately went out of focus so I had to leave the scans at the same size they were sent at.

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Posted By: <b>Anonymous</b><p>Well... the Pennant question has apparently been solved. The letter to Mr. O'Meara, dated December 30, 1955 indicates this is a REPLICA Pennant. <br /><br />Although the type is small, it appears to say "Replica of Original Knickerbocker Baseball Club Pennant of 1845". So it looks like we, as a group made some good "educated" guesses!

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Posted By: <b>Dan</b><p> If anyone wants to read the text please email me directly at Dan.Beemsterboer@ThompsonHine.com and I will forward the scans.

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Posted By: <b>Dan</b><p> I am still interested to find out if and when the pennant may have been reproduced. It seems like such an odd object and I doubt there would have been much of a market for them. I guess this brings me back to the original post, would this pennant have any value?

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Posted By: <b>Brock G.</b><p>Seems possible to me that the pennant may have been something your grandfather had custom made for himself and also had another made and sent it to the Hall of Fame. <br />Very interesting story.

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Posted By: <b>ramram</b><p>The James Whyte Davis items may actually carry more value.<br /><br />Rob M.

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Posted By: <b>Jon Canfield</b><p>I found it interesting that the side of the printing plate and the article has the Knickerbocker pennant on it.

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Posted By: <b>Dan Bretta</b><p>Some interesting questions arise from this group of items...How old are those printing blocks? What is the oldest known pennant? What is the first reference to a baseball season as a "pennant race"?

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Posted By: <b>Mark</b><p>Great questions, Dan....<br /><br />I have also often wondered how the term "pennant race" came to be. And why was "pennant" chosen as the ultimate symbol of conquest? I bet this terminology goes waaaaay back!<br /><br />This is actually a key reason that I pursue baseball pennants, and collect them so avidly. Pennants have always been among my favorite collectibles, as they seem like the quintissential form of baseball memorabilia.<br /><br />

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Posted By: <b>Richard Cline - RC</b><p>It's threads like these that remind me to stop over on the memorabilia side more often.<br /><br />Thanks for sharing and great research guys.<br /><br />RC

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Posted By: <b>Joe K.</b><p>Wow! Interesting items and thread. Seems that these print blocks, letter and Davis items could carry a very very large value. A unique and rare connection to the knickerbocker club and JW Davis. Seems like this could command a huge interest from some folks. Barry - Would be curious to hear more what you possibly think of the value and significance of these items.<br /><br />P.S. not to mention the uniqueness of the pennant and it's connection to the HOF.<br /><br />-Joe<br /><a href="http://www.geocities.com/vintagesportscollector/" target="_new" rel="nofollow">http://www.geocities.com/vintagesportscollector/</a><br />

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Posted By: <b>DD</b><p>A pennant has military significance. A pennant is the traditional sign of a warship, and carried on it's masthead while active. Capturing a pennant would mean you were the victor.<br /><br />As far as pennant race, if someone knows what the oldest closest pennant race was, I think that would be a good starting point for the reference.

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Posted By: <b>barrysloate</b><p>I think the Davis document could be very valuable, though it's hard to place a number on it. The printing plate is cool but a little esoteric. It's great to see stuff like this for the first time.

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Posted By: <b>Dan</b><p> I emailed the Hall of Fame and sent them a picture of the Pennant and the letter received from my grandfather. I heard back this morning. They still have the pennant that my grandfather originally sent them in 1955. It is in their archives. So the speculation from the researcher was my grandfather had two of these pennants, one he gave to the hall and the other he kept for himself. This still raises the questions of were and when my grandfather got these pennants. I am going to talk to some relatives to see if they can shed some light on the subject. Thought I would give an update.

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Posted By: <b>Chris</b><p>but, I was looking at past threads and thought this had some very interesting points of discussion, and seemed to end early. Any updates you can point me to? Thanks! chris

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Posted By: <b>Dan</b><p> Hello all, I just saw that this original thread had been bumped. Unfortunately I have not been able to locate any further information. My uncle who has a box of my grandfathers notes and items has been sick. I am still hoping to touch base with him in the near future and see if I can locate further information regarding the pennant and print plate.

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Posted By: <b>Chris</b><p>Thanks!