Lou Gehrig signing habits

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Posted By: <b>Andrew Saboley</b><p>Is it possible to have an authentic Lou Gehrig signature after January 1940? I remember reading that he couldn't even lift or move his arms after the latter part of 1939.

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Posted By: <b>David Atkatz</b><p>By 1940 Gehrig could no longer write. All his correspondence was either signed by his wife (if it was sent from Gehrig's home), or, if sent from Gehrig's Parole Board office, bore a rubber-stamp signature.<br /><br />Here is a postcard mailed to a fan from Gehrig's office, bearing the stamped signature. Notice that the salutation, "With Best wishes to George," is typed, rather than written.<br /><br /><img src="http://i82.photobucket.com/albums/j245/datkatz/gehrig1940stamppc.jpg"><br /><br /><img src="http://i82.photobucket.com/albums/j245/datkatz/gehrig1940stamppcfr.jpg"><br /><br />

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Posted By: <b>MVSNYC</b><p>very sad...and the way in which he handled it all: class personifide<br /><br />the next item on my list is a lou signature for sure.

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Posted By: <b>barrysloate</b><p>There were some Gehrig signatures from late in his life that are very shaky, but they may be earlier than 1940. Not sure.<br /><br />Michael: personified <img src="/images/happy.gif" height=14 width=14>

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Posted By: <b>MVSNYC</b><p>barry- do you get up really early and just comb Net54 for spelling mistakes? <img src="/images/wink.gif" height=14 width=14>

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Posted By: <b>brock</b><p>Gehrig was the greatest. Just think if he did not die and played 4-5 more years he would have around 668 home runs if he hit around 35 a year. He would also have around 3500 hits with around 175 each year. And these number are under his averages. Only if, he would have been the greatest player to play the game.<br /><br />I also will be added one of his autographs to my collection in the future.

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Posted By: <b>barrysloate</b><p>Michael- you know the rooster that crows each morning at dawn? Who do you think wakes him up? <img src="/images/happy.gif" height=14 width=14>

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Posted By: <b>Rhys</b><p>Barry<br /><br />You mean all those wild herds of Roosters running around New York city?

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Posted By: <b>Andrew Saboley</b><p>David, thank you for the info. I was just wondering because there is a Gehrig signed Harridge ball in the upcoming Mastro Live Auction, and the ball has markings that indicate it could only have been signed in 1940 or 41. This would seem to be an impossibility. Thanks again.

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Posted By: <b>J.McMurry</b><p>Thats very interesting.<br /><br />I know Halper had a typed letter that I believe was dated 1940 and signed by Gehrig. The sig looked nothing like his normal autograph, as it was very shaky and almost childlike. There is a pic of it in the halper auction catalogs from 1999. While a signed ball from this period may be possible,it certainly would not look anything like a Gehrig signature and personally, Eleanor Gehrig herself would have to be handing me the ball before I would feel good about it.

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Posted By: <b>Richard Simon</b><p>If Eleanor handed it to you,she might have signed it.<br />=<br><br>I refuse to engage in a battle of wits with an unarmed opponent.<br />Unknown author <br />--<br />We made a promise. We swore we'd always remember.<br />No retreat baby, no surrender.<br />The Boss

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Posted By: <b>J.McMurry</b><p>Ha Ha, you're right.<br /><br />Change that to read Lou.<br /><br /> whats your opinion on this item Rich?

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Posted By: <b>David Atkatz</b><p>Here is another 1940 "Gehrig" signed piece. A letter sent from his home, signed by his wife.<br /><br /><img src="http://i82.photobucket.com/albums/j245/datkatz/gehrigtlsmrs.jpg">

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Posted By: <b>Richard Simon</b><p>Jody - without seeing the ball I hate to render any opinion, but I have always been of the same opinion as David, regarding Gehrig's ability to write post 1940.<br />=<br><br>I refuse to engage in a battle of wits with an unarmed opponent.<br />Unknown author <br />--<br />We made a promise. We swore we'd always remember.<br />No retreat baby, no surrender.<br />The Boss

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Posted By: <b>Matt</b><p><img src="http://images.mastroauctions.com/images/Auction50/photographs/75465.jpg">

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Posted By: <b>David Atkatz</b><p>This is from Jonathan Eig's terrific book, "Luckiest Man." On January 27, 1940, Gehrig visited a Manhattan doctor, Israel Wechsler. Wechsler wrote that "When first seen, [Gehrig] had marked spasticity in both lower extremities... generalized fibrillations, weakness of the shoulder and arm muscles, <i>and almost complete paralysis of the hand muscles</i>... (Emphasis added.)<br /><br />By 1940, Gehrig could not write.

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Posted By: <b>MVSNYC</b><p>As i said above...very sad. <br /><br />IF i were a millionaire, i would buy EVERY Lou Gehrig item in Mastro's Live Auction; 1938 Game-Used Road Jersey, 1938 Game-Used Bat, EVERY Signature, etc...i wouldn't care how much they cost...<br /><br />

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Posted By: <b>Marty Kohler</b><p>I am sure you mean..... Multi-millionaire?.......I share your feelings completely...He is still somewhat of a mystery.....A TRUE captain..... Marty<br><br>GO YARD

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Posted By: <b>Matt</b><p>sorry if it wasn't clear - the ball I linked above is the ball in question.

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Posted By: <b>brian</b><p>So is the ball that Matt posted a stamp or signed by Gehrig's wife?

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Posted By: <b>David Atkatz</b><p>The signature looks good. Which means the "stars on the label" Harridge ball was introduced earlier than previously thought--probably in 1939.<br />

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Posted By: <b>Matt</b><p>Why was it previously assumed that the "stars on the label" Harridge ball was introduced in 1940?

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Posted By: <b>Andrew S.</b><p>Why was it previously assumed that the "stars on the label" Harridge ball was introduced in 1940?<br /><br /><br /><br />Based solely on the written auction description:<br /><br />"This ball, though, is of the "Harridge" variety bearing stars that flank the stamping "Official," thereby isolating its vintage to the period 1940-45. The chemistry of all these variables, then, necessarily isolates this signing to that narrow window between Gehrig's retirement and his passing (June 1941)."

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Posted By: <b>Matt</b><p>Andrew - why did whoever wrote the description make that assumption?

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Posted By: <b>Mark</b><p>I bet Jodi knows why the assumption was made. I recall a thread about 3 months ago that related to the various markings and subsequent dating of these Official balls. <br /><br />I think he may have wanted to keep a portion of the information confidential, however (for professional reasons). Perhaps Jodi can chime in with a brief explanation of how to read the dating of the Harridge Balls.

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Posted By: <b>Jodi Birkholm</b><p>Mark,<br /><br />I'd like to, but can not. Most of the regular contributors on this board are upstanding citizens, but who knows who else may be lurking? I'm not interested in sharing trade secrets in a public forum. This information took a few people a lifetime to decipher, and it will always be a learning process. I'd rather see a forger waste a blank official ball improperly due to their own ignorance than to feed the fire of their deviance by sharing such matters here.

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Posted By: <b>brock</b><p>Here's a post 1990's Lou Gehrig autograph if you have never seen one before. I cant believe a person would bid?<br /><br /><a href="http://cgi.ebay.com/ORGINAL-SIGNED-LOU-GEHRIG-ALL-TIME-GREAT-BASEBALL-CARD_W0QQitemZ250273835164QQihZ015QQcategoryZ73396 QQssPageNameZWDVWQQrdZ1QQcmdZViewItem" target="_new" rel="nofollow">http://cgi.ebay.com/ORGINAL-SIGNED-LOU-GEHRIG-ALL-TIME-GREAT-BASEBALL-CARD_W0QQitemZ250273835164QQihZ015QQcategoryZ73396 QQssPageNameZWDVWQQrdZ1QQcmdZViewItem</a>

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Posted By: <b>Matt</b><p>Jodi - is it safe to assume that if the Gehrig ball in question was an impossibility, you would let us know so that someone doesn't get taken advantage of?

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Posted By: <b>David Atkatz</b><p>The ball is not an impossibility, Matt. As Jodi said, people have pieced together a "history" of the introduction times of various baseball styles. They have done this by using other methods to date the design, and then assuming that the earliest date is the introduction time for that design. But, if an earlier example appears, the intro date must be revised.<br /><br />This baseball was--judging by the style of the Gehrig signature--signed in 1939. Simply means that that style ball was available in 1939.

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Posted By: <b>Matt</b><p>Thanks David - I thought it was possible there might be some records to indicate when the balls were produced as opposed to piecing it together based on known valid signatures.

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Posted By: <b>J.McMurry</b><p>wow, it took this forum to inspire me to get a Photobucket account.<br /><br />I couldnt stand it, so I dug up the Halper Catalog and scanned the Gehrig letter from 1940. This document was a settlement agreement where Gehrig sued the NY Dailey News. whether it's legit or not?.........<br /><br />sorry about the scan quality.<br /><br /><img src="http://i340.photobucket.com/albums/o331/jodester_photos/1940gehrig.jpg">

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Posted By: <b>David Atkatz</b><p>Regardless of what PSA might say, I doubt very much that Gehrig signed that document in December 1940, especially as his hands were paralyzed by January 1940, and he would die just six months later.<br /><br />Looks to me more like a shaky Eleanor Gehrig proxy.<br /><br />And how can PSA--or anyone else for that matter, <i>possibly</i> authenticate this signature, without anything comparable.

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Posted By: <b>J.McMurry</b><p>Wow, this could turn into a great discussion-mystery.<br /><br />David, I went back to the Catalog and re-read the discription. It has no mention of it being authenticated by anyone,but does have this line:<br /><br />"...together with a copy of the original daily news retraction and a 2 page autograph recollection of the episode by teammate Tommy Henrich..."<br /><br />the estimated sale price was $3-5,000. I'll look up what it sold for when I get home tonite and post it.<br /><br />I guess the question I have is, At what point in his life could Gehrig absolutely not sign his name?

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Posted By: <b>boxingcardman</b><p>It is unclear from the scan whether the settlement agreement was acknowledged before a notary; it does appear to be witnessed. Often, a document that has been executed for a legal purpose will be independently authenticated at the time of execution via notarial acknowledgment or witnessing. Does that make it a certainty? No. But it does make it much more likely that it is genuine. <br><br>Sic Gorgiamus Allos Subjectatos Nunc

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Posted By: <b>David Atkatz</b><p>It says "sealed and delivered." It does not say that it was signed in her presence.<br />Nor do I see an actual Notary seal, with an ID number and expiration date.<br /><br />Actually, there is nothing to indicate that document is original and/or authentic.<br /><br />Lou Gehrig could not write six months before his death. He couldn't even hold his own cigarette--it was held for him. If it wasn't removed from his mouth in time, it would burn his lips.<br /><br />(When I was a teenager, I spoke to the people who lived in Gehrig's last home (5204 Delafield Ave., Riverdale, NY) right after the Gehrigs did. Many interesting stories.)<br />

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Posted By: <b>J.McMurry</b><p>why would Eleanor sign the document in such a manner? did she not have POA over lou's affairs? Why not just sign it as she did other documents etc.?

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Posted By: <b>David Atkatz</b><p>On further reflection, I don't believe Eleanor Gehrig <i>did</i> sign the document. I have no idea who did, but I do not believe for an instant it was signed by Lou Gehrig.<br />By the beginning of 1941--when this document was supposedly signed--Gehrig could neither lift his arms nor hold a cigarette between two fingers.<br /><br />I have been collecting vintage Yankee material since 1965. I have many Gehrig signed items, as well as Eleanor's proxies, and stamped signatures. I have a 1939 World Series program signed by Gehrig, and have seen a number of other pieces signed in 1939. I have only seen two pieces purported to be signed by Gehrig post-1940 that were not stamped or Eleanor signatures. Both were sold by Mastro, and I don't recognize either as being authentic.<br /><br />Personally, I would not spend more than $500 for the above document, and that only as an interesting artifact, and not a Gehrig autograph.

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Posted By: <b>George Dreher</b><p>I think we're fortunate to have David on the forum with his knowledge and experience with vintage Yankee autographs. I've really enjoyed reading this thread. One of the most interesting ones yet.

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Posted By: <b>MVSNYC</b><p>agreed...this is a great thread, and as someone who will be looking for an authentic Gehrig sig soon, i have learned so much from many of the posts above...<br /><br />thanks!<br />MS

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Posted By: <b>J.McMurry</b><p>Yes, I enjoy threads like this, very informative and interesting.<br /><br />Well, I looked it up last night, and if David's suspicions are correct, someone threw away alot of moula on the contract I posted above as the final price, with the juice hammered at $40,250.<br /><br /><br /> I've long felt that there were suspect items in Halpers collection, threads like this seem to reinforce that belief. I wonder how many items have been rubber stamped legit because they were from THE HALPER COLLECTION?<br /><br /><br /><br />edited to remove the word "several"<br />thanks mvsnyc, that was a bad choice of a word

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Posted By: <b>MVSNYC</b><p>J.McMurry-<br /><br />that's news to me...from what i understand, a huge majority of his collection was acquired from players directly (or their family)...please elaborate...thanks.

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Posted By: <b>J.McMurry</b><p>First off let me say that it is just a "gut" feeling I've had for a few years while looking at the auction catalogs,I will never claim to be an expert on this.<br /> Second, I'm only referring to signed items(and not the obvious ones that were personalized to barry from Dimaggio,Mantle, etc.)<br /><br /> a few years back, an employee of either Mastro or Lelands, I cant remember which, was interviewed about Halper and his collection and he commented, I'm paraphrasing here, "Barry received some items as gifts from people he didnt even know, I approached him about a few items I thought were questionable but he refused to discuss the matter at all."<br /><br /> a prominent member of this board, in this very thread, has serious doubts that a Halper item is legit.<br /><br />Like I said, it's just a gut feeling I've had that gets reinforced when I hear or read stuff like whats posted above.<br /><br />Maybe as I have time, I'll scan pics of some of the items from this auction that I feel are questionable, and maybe members can give their opinions on them.<br /><br />

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Posted By: <b>George Dreher</b><p>"Maybe as I have time, I'll scan pics of some of the items from this auction that I feel are questionable, and maybe members can give their opinions on them."<br /><br />Jody, that sounds like fun. Looking forward to it.<br /><br /><br />

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Posted By: <b>J.McMurry</b><p>ok, here's one for starters.<br /> not saying it's fake or real,but it sure does make me kinda turn my head and say "Hmmmm"<br /><br /><img src="http://i340.photobucket.com/albums/o331/jodester_photos/ruthminibat.jpg">

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Posted By: <b>J.McMurry</b><p>This one may very well be real, but what caught my attention was the "R" in Ruth. This was supposedly signed in 1932.<br /><br /><img src="http://i340.photobucket.com/albums/o331/jodester_photos/ruthbb.jpg">