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07-01-2007, 04:24 PM
Posted By: <b>Joann</b><p>OK - maybe here is a chance to start a "tutorial" kind of thread with a specific question. I recently picked up the card below. I try to guesstimate the date of this one (along with some other cab photos) by uniforms, but don't know much about their evolution. <br /><br />All I kind of know is that bibs are maybe 1870ish and quilted pants are 1890-1900 or so. Oh - and a different uni for each position is something like 1882. That's it. <br /><br />Can anyone ring in with different uniform tells that will indicate approximate years of use? I think I read once that high top v low top shoes are one way to estimate date, and that hat styles are also good indicators (but I don't know which styles were used when).<br /><br />Any info appreciated - not just as relates to this photo, but any other pics or scans you might have that show uniform characteristics and how they progressed. Although .. I don't know that I've ever seen double-breasted uniforms before, so any info as to their use in this particular picture would also be helpful.<br /><br />Thanks,<br /><br />J<br /><br /><img src="http://www.network54.com/Realm/tmp/1183235000.JPG">

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07-01-2007, 04:47 PM
Posted By: <b>Dan Bretta</b><p>Those gals are wearing their warmup jackets over their uniforms in that pic. If I had to guess just by looking at your photo I would say 1910 - nothing in particular tells me 1910 it just looks like it...if you know what I mean??? <br /><br />Great photo btw - I have never heard of this team. There was a St Louis Stars negro league team in the 1920s.

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07-02-2007, 09:26 AM
Posted By: <b>Jason Mishelow</b><p>Based on the glove in front I would quess that the team is 1910's at the earliest.<br /><br />It is a bit hard to tell from the scan but I was wondering do all of the players look like women- A few in the back could easily be men. I mention this becuase in the teens there were other teams that advertised themselves as all women's teams but actually employed men wearing wigs. If I remember correctly there is a chapter in the Glory of Thier Times whewre one of the player's talks about being approached to play for a team called the Bloomer Girls and goes on to say that Rogers Hornsby actualled played with such a team for a sort period<br /><br /><br />Jason

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07-02-2007, 10:57 AM
Posted By: <b>Joann</b><p>I think it may be a Star Bloomer Girls team, but am not sure. The Boston and Star Bloomer girls preceded the Western Bloomer Girls teams that were started around 1911. I didn't think this one looked like it would be a Western team.<br /><br />The star logo on sleeve and "Star" in team name are the reasons I'm wildly guessing at Star Bloomers. The Western Bloomer teams all included two or three men. I'm not sure about the Star and Boston Bloomer teams, but think they might have as well. There are three men included in this picture, all in the back row.<br /><br />But I don't think I've seen a captioned card (as opposed to a plain photo) of any Bloomers team that did not include the word "Bloomer". The Western B and Star Bloomers PC's that I own and have seen all indicate that they are Bloomer teams, and this one doesn't So I'm not sure. <br /><br />And why would a Cinti team be called the St. Louis Stars? <br /><br />Dan - it never occured to me for a single second that the uniform tops were warm up jackets. Wow. It surprises me that women's teams would be that extensively equipped, but I think you are right.<br /><br />Finally, someone on the card side pointed out that the swastikas (covered by the black boxes in the scan) were widely used as a Native American symbol. One of the first things I thought when I got this card was that at least a few of the players might be women of color (front row right, and front row second left in particular). Anyone think one or more may be Amer Ind?<br /><br />Any other uniform tips would still be appreciated. I don't want to limit responses to this card only, but also invite any info about uniform evolution in general.<br /><br />J

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07-02-2007, 11:20 AM
Posted By: <b>Dan Bretta</b><p>Here's a photo of the Western Bloomer Girls of Watervliet, Michigan wearing almost the same exact jackets.<br /><br /><img src="http://home.columbus.rr.com/doclawson/vbb/bloomer.JPG"><br /><br />Some of these barnstorming teams were very well financed and they also drew huge crowds because of their novelty which made it easy for them to afford nice uniforms. They also drew the occasional star players. Babe Ruth clowned around a bit with the House of David, GC Alexander pitched for them for a season...Joe Wood played on a Bloomer Girls team, and Jimmy Claxton, Charley Grant, and even Sam Crawford played for the Nebraska Indians.<br /><br />I have found that many of these barnstorming teams are an unexplored (a better definition is probably under explored) area of the history of baseball...still not much is known about many of these teams and they were very big attractions in their day.<br /><br />

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07-02-2007, 03:28 PM
Posted By: <b>davidcycleback</b><p>The easiest way to distinguish between an American Indian swastika and the Nazi swastika is that the American Indian is counterclockwise (faces left) and not titled, while the Nazi is clockwise (faces right) and tilted (The Nazi swastika is tilted to resemble a cross). Before the Nazis adopted the symbol in 1920, swastikas were used by many cultures and for many uses, including as good luck charms. The Greeks, Romans, Celtics, Buddhists and Hindus used swastikas, both clockwise and counterclockwise, but usually not tilted like the Nazis. Any swastika in a 1911 women's baseball photo would have no Nazi connotation. The swastikas on your card mostly likely are simply good luck symbols, comparable to four leaf clovers.<br /><br />You can see Pre-1920 American Indian players with swasticas on the uniforms. You will occasionally see Pre-1920 white male teams with swasticas on their uniforms. This Bloomer team doesn't appear American Indian, and I'm unaware of any American Indian Bloomer teams.