PDA

View Full Version : Restoration


Archive
05-14-2007, 09:50 PM
Posted By: <b>Jason Mishelow</b><p>On the card side this board has made it vedry clear that restoration is almost universally unacceptable- but what about for memorabilia- i collect mainly 19th century and becuase of a fairly limited budget often purchse items which are a bit worse for wear. For my purposes the conditon doesn't often bother me, after all these are often scarce items. Furthermore, I think that the sign of use often add a bit of soul to the item. But what do the rest of you think- does restroation ad value to an item or take it away. How much restoration do you think is accetable. And if you are in favor of restoration do you hold the same opinion for cards and if not why.

Archive
05-14-2007, 10:27 PM
Posted By: <b>Dan Bretta</b><p>Restoration can make some items more valuable depending on the lengths you have to go to to restore an item. Baseball gloves can be restrung, cleaned and oiled often making it more valuable. However putting a new decal on a faded or worn decal bat is not what I would consider acceptable. Cleaning up a bat though is acceptable as far as I am concerned.<br /><br />It has always been acceptable to clean and restore 19th century photographs as far as I know...I'm sure Barry can chime in on that aspect of the hobby.<br /><br />

Archive
05-14-2007, 10:51 PM
Posted By: <b>Mike</b><p>My attitude towards memorabilia is the same as baseball cards or antique furniture etc. etc. Don't do it. Too many times it is done to deceive. But scumbags, thieves and butt holes will be doing it till the end of time. So folks better be educated and know what they are buying. Or you'll get burned. I am against all restoration of antiques of any kind. Now I know I will get blasted for that atitude. But it's mine, and I'm sticken' to it. ifa glove is restrung, and the buyer is informed, thats ok. As long as the seller is honest. But I am still against tampering of any kind.

Archive
05-14-2007, 11:00 PM
Posted By: <b>Joe K.</b><p>I am not a condition freak, and generally like to keep things as is. It adds character and is what you should expect from a sports antique. I am in favor of cleaning or repairing, but not alerting or replacing. On a uniform I will clean dirt, remove sports, mend rips and stitch holes - but that is about the length of it. Trophies I polish. Gloves and bats I clean and remove dirt.

Archive
05-15-2007, 05:06 AM
Posted By: <b>Mike H</b><p>Restoration and cleaning are different creatures for me. Cleaning the dirt off a glove, store model bat, trophy, etc and applying an oil is not only acceptable, but adds value. Like Joe stated, minor repairs are also acceptable, but should be disclosed. Now with game used equipment, this is a Bozo no no.

Archive
05-15-2007, 07:10 AM
Posted By: <b>Mike</b><p>I have a pair of Jimmie Foxx cleats, that still have the original dirt on them, from 1931. That tells you how much I am against cleaning and altering. But that's just me....to clean and polish the shoes would take away from their ......what ever it is, I can't think of the word. You get the point.

Archive
05-15-2007, 07:13 AM
Posted By: <b>Mike H</b><p>Exactly my point regarding game used pieces. Wipe away the dirt, and you wipe away the history.

Archive
05-15-2007, 07:15 AM
Posted By: <b>barrysloate</b><p>Restoration will often help preserve a piece that is in a state of deterioration. A brittle poster, for example, can be de-acidified so that it will not crack, or a layer of Japanese tissue can be applied to the back to fortify it. Likewise, an albumen photograph develops a layer of acidic "gunk" on the surface that can be easily removed.<br /><br />In some cases a piece is in such bad shape restoration may be the only answer to save it. In general, restoration is acceptable for larger pieces, or when it is the only option to preserve it. And revealing the restoration at the time of sale is of course mandatory.

Archive
05-15-2007, 07:24 AM
Posted By: <b>Mike</b><p>Let me qualify my earlier thread....of course some things need to be cleaned and or preserved. Antique cars for instance. Art work. Historical buildings. And sometimes if cleaning actually helps or saves something from decaying or rotting, well then of course it should be done. But for those who take items and alter or clean and or change them, in order to deceive folks, and or to change a grade that a third party has given it, in order to make a dollar. I don't believe in absolutes, and of course there is a time for some cleaning and or restoration. I am against card restoration. But that is for the other forum.

Archive
05-15-2007, 10:39 AM
Posted By: <b>barrysloate</b><p>Any act to deceive someone in any walk of life is unethical. I think that's a given. If you restore a piece of memorabilia, or even a house before you sell it, you must reveal it to a prospective buyer.

Archive
05-15-2007, 11:08 AM
Posted By: <b>Dan Bretta</b><p>I don't think restoration has ever been a major problem in memorabilia as it has in cards because it has been acceptable to a point whereas in cards it's just flat out unacceptable. I've never seen a case where something was sold that was restored/cleaned and wasn't disclosed....that kind of stuff goes on with cards all the time.<br /><br />I hope we never get to the point where it is unacceptable to clean a glove.

Archive
05-15-2007, 11:11 AM
Posted By: <b>Corey R. Shanus</b><p>Restoration (as opposed to mere surface cleaning) for memorabilia is completely different than restoration for baseball cards. For the latter such treatment is taboo; for memorabilia, for most collectors, it not only is acceptable but also recommended.<br /><br />As has been noted, if an item is very brittle, appropriate restoration will preserve its longevity. For example, turn-of-the century paper is known to have a high acid content. There have been some mammoth plate and imperial cabinet photographs I own with deteriorating mounts that I have been advised to have rebacked. Publications often have detached pages with decrepit bindings. Rebinding in such instances is a common and accepted practice. In the case of hand-colored lithographs or chormolithographic advertising pieces, repairs and reinforcement to mounts/backings, and in some cases incoloring, is common practice.<br /><br />However, whatever one decides to do, should he/she ever decide to sell the item, appropriate disclosure is a must.<br /><br />In regard to value, while of course all things being equal, of two pieces with substantially identical outward appearance, the one with no (or the lesser) restoration will sell for a premium. But it has been my experience that often the extent of this premium is not that large. Desirable 19th century memorabilia is just so rare and in almost all cases in such need of repair that restoration has become very commonplace.

Archive
05-15-2007, 11:33 AM
Posted By: <b>leon</b><p>I am still leery about having the 1897 Beaneaters Chickering photo I have cleaned. Since I will eventuaally be selling it, and it's not that bad, wouldn't it be better to leave it to the prospective buyer to do it or not? I don't think it will deteriorate in the short amount of time I will be owning it. It does look like there is a thin coating of grime or dirt on the surface......after all it is over 100 yrs old.....regards (no Corey, I don't think I will be buying a big nice frame for it either <img src="/images/happy.gif" height=14 width=14> )......it will most likely be sold au natural...

Archive
05-15-2007, 11:58 AM
Posted By: <b>barrysloate</b><p>Leon- since your photo has probably been haphazardly stored for 110 years without disintegrating, I doubt that in the relatively short time you own it anything will actually happen to it. However, sometimes when the surface of an albumen is cleaned to remove the acids, it actually looks better after the process. I guess you would need to determine if you think it would be more presentable after a cleaning (which might set you back $100-200, pretty minimal). <br /><br />And Corey and I disagree about framing, but I would not sink a lot of money into a frame if you are going to sell it. The person who buys it more than likely will have a different idea of how he wants it framed. However, it wouldn't hurt to offer it in the one it came in.

Archive
05-15-2007, 12:00 PM
Posted By: <b>Corey R. Shanus</b><p>Depends how dirty it is. <br /><br />The main point though, as we have discussed, is how to market an item to maximize its sale price. What you own is a display piece (Welcome to our world!). The more attractive it looks to a prospective purchaser, the more apt he/she will be to, first, buy it, and, second, to pay a strong price. If it looks really dirty, clean it. The photo then will "pop" more. Also, in regard to the "big nice frame", for a few hundred dollars you'd be amazed at how you can spruce up its potential impact on potential purchasers. Think of it this way, if you're selling your car, would you first take it to the car wash before showing it to prospective purchasers?<br /><br />I'm really looking forward to going to your's and Scott's table at the National this summer and seeing that piece in some really nice big frame with neon lights around it. Then, after you've made a killing on it, at next year's National, I'm expecting to see a booth with a heading "L. Lucky's Vintage Memorabilia"!

Archive
05-15-2007, 12:02 PM
Posted By: <b>barrysloate</b><p>Corey and I posted our dissenting views on framing at the same time. Leon, after you've spent several hundred dollars to have it professionally framed and matted, wait until you get the customer who comes to your table and asks you to take it out of the frame so he can see what it really looks like...and then passes. Boy, will you be steaming!

Archive
05-15-2007, 12:14 PM
Posted By: <b>Corey R. Shanus</b><p>Conceptually, why is framing materially different than restoration whose sole purpose is to improve the aesthetic appearance of an item? The latter is regarded as an accepted and effective marketing practice because it makes an item more appealing to some prospective purchasers. Assuming framing can have the same impact (and in my view, to some prospective purchasers, it can), what's the real downside? Spending a few hundred dollars more on an item you're hoping to sell for 50 to 75 times that amount?! On an analagous note, would a fine art gallery not find it in their interest to from time to time update the decor of its studio to ensure that valuable artwork is not displayed on peeling walls surrounded by worn carpeting?

Archive
05-15-2007, 12:44 PM
Posted By: <b>barrysloate</b><p>I partially agree.<br /><br />Framing can be an arduous process, especially the way the backing is lodged in (often with tiny nails). If I'm going to buy something that's framed, I would a) ask the seller to remove the photgraph so that I can inspect it; b) not pay an extra nickel for it just because it is in a fancy frame. Added to that, I might prefer a different frame and not like the one the seller chose anyway. Finally, I remind you of a mammoth plate photo I brought to Swann's (non-baseball) in an antique frame, and Daile Kaplan requested I remove it from the frame because it might distract bidders.<br /><br />I should add that I think if Leon takes his photo to the National he should bring along the frame it came in, even if it is simple. It will look a little better and be easy to remove. I would not spend hundreds of dollars to purchase a new frame unless he was planning to keep it.

Archive
05-15-2007, 01:23 PM
Posted By: <b>scgaynor</b><p>I cringe when I see framed pieces. While some people really do just want to enhance the piece, 95% of the time the frame is hiding damage on a vintage item. Also, it adds alot to the cost of shipping and there is a chance the frame will break and damage the item inside. Finally, rarely do buyers pay a premium for a frame. If you are going to sell it in a gallery, then you can charge a "gallery" price (usually 5-10X retail) and it makes sense.<br /><br />I always recommend removing an item from a frame before selling it.<br /><br />Scott

Archive
05-15-2007, 02:27 PM
Posted By: <b>davidcycleback</b><p>If something old is framed and matted, assume the worst and you won't be disappointed.<br /><br />I'm no expert in poster display, but my brother-in-law collects vintage movie posters. When a poster of his is hung on the wall, he has it framed behind full a sheet of glass so the entire poster can seen. He's a poster and movie fan and wants to see the entire poster. Also, the posters were originally displayed in similar full fashion by at the theaters (still are today). If I were to see one with the edges matted out, I would assume it had significant condition issues.<br />

Archive
05-15-2007, 02:49 PM
Posted By: <b>Mike</b><p>As mentioned I collect original wire and news photos. And of course other objects made of paper. I have a bit of an advantage in that my daughter is a certified framer, and has been doing it for many years. She handles fairly valuable pieces of art work. So I trust her. She makes sure the object is 100% safe, and that it receives acid free everything. And UV protecting glass. Otherwise my valuable paper items would never see the light of day. Lay a newspaper out in the sun for 6 hours. Ouch ! The downside to this is that it can get expensive doing this. Even though I get a 40% discount because of my connections. <br /><br />One more thing, I have wanted to buy items on e bay, which are framed, and I am certain they are 95% original. When I ask the seller what is on the back, I usually get a "I can't take it out of the frame". Or the owner won't let me look at the back. This when it gets difficult. You just have to go with your gut feel. So far, I haven't been burned, but I know I will someday.

Archive
05-15-2007, 03:09 PM
Posted By: <b>barrysloate</b><p>I would never buy a display photo that was matted and framed unless it was first taken out so that I could inspect the mount. That's just my policy, period.

Archive
05-15-2007, 05:47 PM
Posted By: <b>mr. moses</b><p> I have 150+ items that are mounted and framed. I don't keep them in a safety deposit box:-) and like to enjoy them (although admittedly I have some stored in my closet as I don't live in a mansion). My best pieces are in my best frames and I have spent upwards of 400.00 to frame my best piece. I have no plans to sell my best pieces. I enjoy them more than if I had put them in a plastic sleeve (not cheap either 20.00 - 30.00 for a large one). I try and make a note on my inventory if there is some kind of damage that I have matted out. In going to SELL a piece, it is generally best to NOT have it in a frame for the reasons outlined above (buyer's assumption that something is being hidden is reflected in a lower selling price, added shipping expense, damage, and the person may think your choice of framing as weak). If it is a high dollar item and the frame enhances the image enough to warrant the extra expenditure; it should at least be considered. A frame is also decent protection as long as you are not sending it somewhere. The deception part is tricky. Always someone out there trying to separate you from your money.<br /> I think somehow the thread got away from the original post as to restoration. I collect photos, antiquities of all types, fossils and rare minerals, and more. Again they are not in a box. If I wanted to keep things in a box I would store money there. I like to enjoy my things until I go to sell them (some things might be joining my in my coffin), and hope that when they sell it is at or above what I paid for them. Then the holding them part was a double bonus as I got to "use" them for free. If they sell for less then I paid "rent". To each their own:-) Care is a necessary component of ownership to me. Things made their way to me in one piece and I'd like to see they get to the next guy in the same condition. Restoration and conservation are available and recommended services depending on the situation at hand. I have no need to see a 100 year old item look as if it was made yesterday. Age and foxing are expected of old paper items like posters, advertising, and photos and I think lends a credibility factor to the mind and the "eye". Cleaning seems perfectly acceptable of ANY item if that's your personal preference. It can also help when one goes to sell an object. I think it is even acceptable on a card as long as the original structure and composition have not been altered. Cleaning a piece of dirt off a card is different than reconstructing a corner or flattening out a crease (although if the original dimensions remained the same and nothing else changed because of it, I could see an argument that the crease removal IS ok unless it was manufactured with one). Conservation by definition ensures an item will be stabilized, cleaned, and even enhanced BUT that the object (usually paper) can be brought back to it's condition before the conservation. Hard to see anything wrong with that unless there is the deception thing again; and there's not much you can do about that. Conservation is absolutely necessary to protect or prevent ongoing damage that would lead to further degradation of an item (including de-acidifying paper or stabilizing rusting on a tin, etc.).<br /> Restoration is a bit different and usually is more of a structural or aesthetic solution to an incomplete or "broken" element or group of elements. Many great works of art and antiquities wouldn't be much to look at without some restoration (AND conservation-they are not mutually exclusive). This conservation/restoration argument (especially about cards) has been going on since I entered the hobby 15 years ago and I guess went on long before my arrival ALTHOUGH cards weren't trading for 100,000.00 and up and it was when third party grading of cards was in it's infancy. I think the answer is that's it's what the "hobby" accepts in it's most general terms by the greatest number of people who have an economic interest. Just my nickle (2 cents long gone - it was I believe the cost of a seltzer water back when guys like Barry were born)......<img src="/images/happy.gif" height=14 width=14>

Archive
05-15-2007, 05:50 PM
Posted By: <b>barrysloate</b><p>I was born before they even invented seltzer.<br /><br />And I've seen Henry's collection of rocks and minerals...they are a sight to behold (as well as his baseball and tobacco stuff, too). <img src="/images/happy.gif" height=14 width=14>

Archive
05-15-2007, 10:11 PM
Posted By: <b>mr. moses</b><p>Just to touch on the frame issue (and get a rare chance to show a few minerals:-)<br /><br /><br /><img src="http://i175.photobucket.com/albums/w155/mosesmr/sgposter.jpg"><br /><br /><img src="http://i175.photobucket.com/albums/w155/mosesmr/fossil2.jpg"><br /><br /><img src="http://i175.photobucket.com/albums/w155/mosesmr/room3.jpg"><br /><br /><br /><br />

Archive
05-15-2007, 11:10 PM
Posted By: <b>leon</b><p>Cool stuff...thanks for sharing....I like the rocks...and will show my 10yr old tomorrow. She loves rocks too....regards

Archive
05-16-2007, 10:59 AM
Posted By: <b>E, Daniel</b><p>Your rocks and minerals (excuse me if I'm poorly labelling them) are perhaps the best 'displayable' collectable I have now seen! The way the lighted cabinet infuses or brings out the color and shape of those pieces is stunning....truly.<br /><br />I would never have stopped to think about the potential art effect of ore of yore.<br /><br />Thanks for the pics, feel free to take more with the new camera and post at your leisure <img src="/images/happy.gif" height=14 width=14><br /><br /><br />Daniel

Archive
05-16-2007, 12:03 PM
Posted By: <b>barrysloate</b><p>Ore of yore.<br /><br />Priceless <img src="/images/happy.gif" height=14 width=14>

Archive
05-16-2007, 01:50 PM
Posted By: <b>Tom Boblitt</b><p>of Mork from Ork............<br /><br />I agree with the folks on don't spend a ton on a frame. Aesthetically pleasing but able to be opened EASILY. I have some nice photos that are in Target frames that are nice wood with quick clips on the back. The frames are decent and were $30-$60 but I can quickly remove them for scanning or shooting a quick photo of them.<br /><br />JMO....<br />

Archive
05-16-2007, 07:32 PM
Posted By: <b>Greg Theberge</b><p>Great Tobacco items above!! Love those lithographs. Thanks for sharing.<br /><br />Restoration is a topic that seems to go better for some forms of emphera than others. <br /><br />In collecting Brewery advertising over the years, we have certainly restored many unique lithographs, paintings and Reversed on Glass signs. Without a doubt, this has put them in a better state of preservation for the future than leaving them alone to slowly decay on their own. We've done things such as taking out water stains, repairing a tear in a painting and stabilizing flaking paint on reversed glass signs. We're certainly not trying to pull the wool over on anyone, we're doing it out of the respect for the piece of artwork. After all, every major museum does some form of preservation, just look at the Star Spangled Banner, etc.<br /><br />We've never done anything on a small piece, nor have we repaired any paint on an old tray or beer can (which can be just as valuable as sports cards). <br /><br />I guess there's things that should and shouldn't be touched.<br /><br />As far as framing, we've framed lithographs or photos to show all their edges and we've framed pieces to cover the edges with the matting. It all depends on whether they look better one way or another.<br /><br />Not that this has much to do with baseball, other than beer and baseball go together, but here are some pretty rare pieces from our collection. I hope the emphera people like to see this as much as I enjoyed seeing those great tobacco items. Sorry Leon, no rocks <img src="/images/happy.gif" height=14 width=14><br /><br /><img src="http://i189.photobucket.com/albums/z192/HiNeighbor_2007/beer74.jpg"><br />1900 PBC litho. No restoration, framed to show entire piece, including the edges<br /><img src="http://i189.photobucket.com/albums/z192/HiNeighbor_2007/DSC00064.jpg"><br />1897 Molter's Calender, framed to cover edges, restored to replace torn corner and water stains removed<br /><img src="http://i189.photobucket.com/albums/z192/HiNeighbor_2007/beer108.jpg"><br />1913 Original Oil Painting Hanley Brewing Company, restored to repair 2" tear in the UR corner, Frame placed with museum plaque to replace original<br /><br />oh, here's a beer and baseball connection....a 1916 Braves, Red Sox, and Providence Greys schedule<br /><br /><img src="http://i189.photobucket.com/albums/z192/HiNeighbor_2007/beer13.jpg"><br /><br />There are many more, but I won't bore everyone <img src="/images/happy.gif" height=14 width=14><br /><br /><br />Oh, by the way, I disagree 2000% on "not spending a lot on a frame". If you are dealing with a 100 year old piece of paper, it needs to be mounted properly, in protective glass, against protective paper and mounted away from the glass itself to allow the piece to breath. If you put a valuable piece in some WalMart frame, you may not want to take it out and look at it very closely as time goes on. <br />