My "National" Find [Archive] - Net54baseball.com Forums

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08-26-2004, 08:57 PM

Posted By: Andy BaranAs many of you know, I have been searching for an 1886 N167 Old Judge Buck Ewing for many years. Last year, Quan told me about a PSA 2 Ewing that he had seen in the PSA office, but I had no way of finding out who the owner was, or where the card was. I was hoping to attend the National earlier this year, specifically to search for an N167 Ewing, but was not able to go. While many of you were enjoying the National, I was home, wishing that I could be there. Then, during the week of the National, I received a random e-mail from a gentleman in California that claimed to own an N167 Ewing. It turns out that he is the same person that Quan saw last year. He had owned the card for many years, and had been out of the hobby since the 1980's. He found my e-mail address through a web search of N167. I'm pretty sure that what he found was a link to an older BUY/SELL/TRADE thread from this site. After weeks of negotiations, we finally agreed on a sale price. The hardest part was that I was forced to negotiate for the card sight unseen, due to his lack of a scanner. The transaction finally took place today. A friend of mine picked up the card for me, and is sending it out tomorrow. He scanned it before mailing it, so I finally got a chance to see it. The best part of the story is that it is probably the most undergraded PSA 2 that I have ever seen. I still can't believe that I stayed home from the National, and the card at the top of my wantlist actually FOUND ME the same week. It proves that the BUY/SELL/TRADE post on this site works, for regular posters, lurkers, and even for those that have never heard of the site. Attached is a scan of the front and back of the card. <img src="http://www.network54.com/Realm/tmp/1093575344.JPG"> <img src="http://www.network54.com/Realm/tmp/1093575384.JPG">

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08-26-2004, 09:07 PM

Posted By: Patrick McMenemyCongrats Andy. Sometimes the Card Gods work in mysterious ways! (Maybe the luck of Red Sox Nation is also changing.) Patrick

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08-26-2004, 09:10 PM

Posted By: john/z28jdIts been a long time coming for you to finally get that card.Im sure it will be a prized possesion! The thrill of the hunt is fun for awhile but wears thin after a few years of searching. I can definitely relate now as im sure you know

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08-26-2004, 09:23 PM

Posted By: Jimmy LeidermanCongrats Andy!!! Your wish did come true after all! You didn't only get your dream card, but got it in superior condition. This has to be the most undergraded card I've ever seen. An Ewing rookie in EX condition slabbed in a PSA2- man! Plain and simple: WOW !!!!

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08-26-2004, 10:23 PM

Posted By: The Other One (Julie)A truly gorgeous card, Andy! I guess it was (somewhat!) downgraded because of those stripy marks on the back, indicating it was at one time in a (fairly modern) scrapbook--the kind with sticky pages (thank God!)

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08-26-2004, 10:23 PM

Posted By: leonGreat card Andy. One of the best 2's I have ever seen. Congrats......but now what? <img src="/images/happy.gif" height=14 width=14> take care

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08-26-2004, 10:30 PM

Posted By: Andy BaranNow I guess that I try to save enough dough before December so I can make a serious run at the SGC 20 N167 Ward from the Egan collection. We'll see......

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08-26-2004, 10:35 PM

Posted By: Bill CornellGreat looking card, Andy - sometimes you do get what you wish for! Bill P.S. Is Quan being held prisoner at PSA or is he there voluntarily?

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08-27-2004, 07:09 AM

Posted By: nickinvegasAndy, Although it is not an issue I collect, that is a great looking card! Nick

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08-27-2004, 07:17 AM

Posted By: Hal LewisBack damage, schmamage. That card rocks! Time to sell me your 1903 Type 1 Lajoie or Wagner so that you can have the jack to buy your Ward! <img src="/images/happy.gif" height=14 width=14> Or are you STILL sitting on that big wad I gave you for the Peck & Snyder? <img src="/images/happy.gif" height=14 width=14>

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08-27-2004, 07:29 AM

Posted By: Andy BaranThe Wagner and Lajoie are going nowhere. Unfortunately, the "Wad" that you mentioned has already been absorbed by my replacement Peck & Snyder and the Ewing card.

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08-27-2004, 08:12 AM

Posted By: Hal Lewis"Nowhere" sounds so final ... so permanent. Is ANYTHING really ever permanent? Can't we leave the door cracked a little bit? For instance, what if you found a Henry Reccius Wagner card tomorrow? <img src="/images/happy.gif" height=14 width=14>

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08-27-2004, 10:51 AM

Posted By: Andy BaranI'm not interested in the Reccius card. It's very cool, but it's a trade card, and not from a set. I know this sounds crazy, but I would want more money for my E107 Wagner than a comparable condition T206 Wagner would sell for. It is many times more scarce, and in my opinion (and possibly only my opinion) it is more desirable.

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08-27-2004, 11:25 AM

Posted By: jay behrensCongrats Andy. I know the feeling you are having right having acquired my dream card. Thankfully, it only took a week from when I posted on the "Wish" thread until the card was offered. Then again, I had been looking for the card since 1982, but never gave it serious thought after 1990 until the wish thread came up. I love the grill marks. I know they come from scrapbooks, but I am not so sure they are from modern ones. I have had dozens of Indians and other cards from the era pass thru my hands in with these marks. I can't imagine so many of these cards never getting put into scrapbooks, then all the sudden getting mounted in a modern one in the past 10-20 years. Jay I like to sit outside, drink beer and yell at people. If I did this at home I would be arrested, so I go to baseball games and fit right in.

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08-27-2004, 11:32 AM

Posted By: Hal LewisAs we all know, there are probably hundreds of cards more scarce than the T206 Wagner... but the "value" of the card is what the market dictates. Just like there are thousands of paintings more pleasing and artistic than the Mona Lisa... but the "value" of the "Famous" painting is what the market dictates. Since there is clearly more "supply" of the T206 Wagner than the E107 Wagner (which would ordinarily make the E103 more expensive)... then logic tells us that the DEMAND for the T206 Wagner is 500 TIMES greater than the demand for the E107. And since I can't find an E107 for now... I will buy a T206 and sell it later if a high grade E107 ever appears.

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08-27-2004, 11:37 AM

Posted By: Andy BaranHal, Your theory on "market value" is true, but only if I wanted to sell the card.

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08-27-2004, 11:53 AM

Posted By: Hal LewisMaybe as to the "market value" of YOUR E107 Wagner... but there are others out there. If your theory held true... then EVERY card in a collection would be valued as "priceless" if the collector would never sell that card... when in reality they are "worthless" because they are just a piece of cardboard that would do the collector absolutely zero good if stranded on a deserted island! <img src="/images/happy.gif" height=14 width=14>

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08-27-2004, 12:19 PM

Posted By: scott brockelmanhal, to further put it in perspective there are approximately 50 t206 wagners known, to my knowledge there are 6 e107 wagners, so roughly 10x's the availability which tends to create more demand, thinly traded issues are very difficult to price and do not garner the interest of the general collector. as andy, i would value my e107 wagner extremely high, but also not be a seller at this time. scott

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08-27-2004, 12:55 PM

Posted By: J LevineAndy, I wish all PSA 2s were that nice. What a great card. Beautiful. I am jealous... -Joshua

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08-27-2004, 01:55 PM

Posted By: Hal LewisHow long ago did you guys get your E107 Wagners? Have you seen any others for sale since then? Do you know who owns the other ones? You've got me curious and interested ... and it would save me a LOT of money to buy an E107 instead of T206.

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08-27-2004, 02:31 PM

Posted By: Andy BaranHal, The only 2 E107 Wagners that I have ever seen for sale are the ones that Scott and I own. I got mine almost exactly 3 years ago. The card was for sale on e-bay, but did not meet the reserve. I struck a deal with the owner, drove down from Connecticut to Philadelphia, and purchased the card. The guy I bought it from picked up 4 E107's (including Wagner) in an estate sale in 1979 for $15 bucks. I paid slightly more. <img src="/images/sad.gif" height=14 width=14> Scott acquired his as part of the near set that he won in the Lipset aucion in 2002. (I hope this is no secret Scott) I was lucky enough to secure my E107 Mathewson and Type 2 Lajoie from this same lot. I also know of 6 Wagners, but I'm not sure if they are the same 6 that Scott is aware of: 1.) Andy B 2.) Scott B - owns an almost complete set 3.) Keith Olberman - owns an almost complete set 4.) Chris (from Boston area, not sure if he'd want his name here) - owns an almost complete set 5.) Richard Cavalieri (has also stated in the past that he would not sell at any price) 6.) Brian Daniels? (never seen the card, but has told me that he owns one)

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08-27-2004, 05:25 PM

Posted By: scott brockelmanhal, the 6 i know of are: K.O., ANDY, MYSELF, CHRIS(BOSTON),JOHN E. & RICH. unless someone can prove me differently, that is the known population. scott

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08-27-2004, 05:32 PM

Posted By: Andy BaranScott and I have 5 overlapping, which means there are definitely 6 (I thought that John E might have had one), possibly 7 if Brian Daniels has one, and maybe a few others at the very most that we are not aware of. No matter what the actual number is (most likely less than 10), they are MUCH more scarce than the T206 Wagner, of which I think the population is actually closer to 100 than to 50. The best chance of finding an E107 Wagner for sale will be if a new one is discovered, since the known cards don't look to be changing hands any time soon.

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08-27-2004, 05:35 PM

Posted By: three25hitsExcellent stuff Andy, I am happy you got your card.

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08-27-2004, 06:22 PM

Posted By: Aaron M.Could someone please post a picture of the E107 Wagner so I can see what the fuss is about? Thanks!

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08-27-2004, 07:41 PM

Posted By: Andy BaranHere you go........ <img src="http://www.network54.com/Realm/tmp/1093657284.JPG">

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08-27-2004, 07:45 PM

Posted By: Jason O.You wouldn't in a million years think that this gent in the suit could be the best all-around player ever.

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08-27-2004, 10:23 PM

Posted By: Brian H (misunderestimated)My guess on the grading is that the back shows that the card was in a photo album (the horizontal lines) and that PSA docket the grade for that.... The card is amazing and it is certainly all about the card and the holder. So the other HOF rookies in that set would be Connor, Welch and Keefe.... any guess on the population of these guys ??

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08-27-2004, 10:33 PM

Posted By: Andy BaranBrian, I guess that you could make an argument that the cards of every player in the N167 set are rookie cards, since I don't believe that an earlier set exists. The HOFers in the set are Ewing, Keefe, Connor, O'Rourke, Welch, & Ward. I wanted the Ewing specifically for the following reasons: 1.) In my opinion, he was the most "important" of the HOFers in the set 2.) He was in the majors for the shortest period of time of any of the HOFers when the set was issued 3.) He is probably the most scarce of the HOFers in the set, based on the fact that his is the only HOFer card was not even discovered at the time of Lipet's Encyclopedia Since my search has been so focussed on the Ewing card, I really don't have a good feel for the population of the other cards.

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08-28-2004, 12:55 AM

Posted By: quanall the hounding and pounding paid off...it's kind of ironic that in the end it was the seller that contacted you after you've been searching so long for him. another one off the checklist...now please somebody out there contact me with a T208 FIRESIDE EDDIE PLANK. I'm hoping this message will reach someone out there in cyberspace by the year 2006 ala Andy!

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08-28-2004, 01:46 AM

Posted By: jay behrensQuan, you mean you weren't bidding on the one in the recent MAstro auction? :-p Jay I like to sit outside, drink beer and yell at people. If I did this at home I would be arrested, so I go to baseball games and fit right in.

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08-29-2004, 07:53 AM

Posted By: Patrick McMenemyAndy: Your N167 Old Judge Ewing brings back memories of my first National. I believe Terry Knouse had 2-3 of them at the 1997 National. It was the first and last time I saw the issue until you posted your scan. It's really a beautiful card.

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08-29-2004, 08:05 AM

Posted By: Hal LewisAndy: Is your card the same one that Barry Halper owned and was auctioned off with his collection in 1999 ??

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08-29-2004, 08:10 AM

Posted By: Andy BaranHal, The seller told me that he has had the card since the 1980's. If he's telling the truth, then it could not possibly be from the Halper collection. I don't know the guy, so I have no idea how truthful he is. Does it look like the same card?

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08-29-2004, 08:11 AM

Posted By: Andy BaranDid TIK have 2-3 N167 Ewings, or 2-3 other N167's? I can't imagine that they were all Ewings, unless there was some kind of find.

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08-29-2004, 08:15 AM

Posted By: Hal LewisLet me find the one in the Halper catalog and get back to you in a sec..

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08-29-2004, 08:18 AM

Posted By: Hal LewisHalper's had more rounded corners and did not have the slight diamond cut. So someone out there has Halper's.

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08-29-2004, 08:20 AM

Posted By: Adam J. MoraineI am nearly 24 years old, and have been collecting vintage baseball cards/ memorabilia for 16 years now. I have ONE of the finest collections in my entire homestate. I have a question, HOW in the hell can you guys afford sweet ass cards like a N167Ewing, T-206 Wagner, or E107 Wagner? PLEASE enlighten myself. Adam J. Moraine Iowa p.s. STILL seeking 1953 topps feller vg+ and 1954 topps Jackie Robinson vg+ (UNGRADED)

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08-29-2004, 08:33 AM

Posted By: Hal LewisI just tell my wife that they are "little pieces of cardboard" that aren't worth much at all... and never let her see the check registry from the bank! But ... if and when you get caught ... you have to go with this line: "Sure, I just spent $40,000 on a card ... but that's because I was upgrading and had already worked out a deal to sell my other one for $39,500 ... so I really only spent $500." Some people spend money on cars or paintings or fancy suits or antique furniture or horse breeding or wine cellars... and some of us spend it on baseball cards.

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08-29-2004, 08:41 AM

Posted By: Adam J. MoraineHal, Thanks, for the information. (LOL) FORTUNATELY for myself I have ZERO plans of getting married due to the fact, that I fear I will end up in a failed marriage, which will lead to a divorce, which will then lead to Adam getting screwed out of his collection. UNLESS prenups work well here in Iowa???? Best Regards, Hal Adam J. Moraine

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08-29-2004, 08:50 AM

Posted By: Andy BaranHalper's card also had creases. I'll check the Copeland Catalog later, but I don't know if there was an N167 Ewing in there. Even if there is, it could be the same as the Halper card. I wonder how many items from the Copeland collection found their way into the Halper collection?

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08-29-2004, 08:52 AM

Posted By: leonAbout 3 years ago I was on vacation on a Presidents Club trip (sales pukes like me) for 4-5 days in AZ. We were all getting drunk in a pool (go figure) at the resort when one of my friends yells over "Hey Leon, how did Kimmie (my wife, Kim) take it when you told her you spent about 25k on a baseball card?" It was the Four Base Hits. I hadn't told her yet ....OUCH......However, now with a close to 6 figure offer on the table for it she doesn't bitch at me anymore.....See it's all in how you rationalize it on the card acquisitions. That, and the fact we try to hide as much as we can from them, pretty much says it all.........regards

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08-29-2004, 08:56 AM

Posted By: Hal LewisDo me a favor, will you? E-Mail me an offer of $100,000 for my Peck & Snyder card. I promise not to accept... but just like in your scenario... it will make my marital life a LOT easier around here!!! Maybe THIS is what we should all agree to do: Fill the World with the crazy-high dollar offers that all of us agree NOT to accept ... but it would satisfy our wives AND DRIVE up the "market" price of our collections!! <img src="/images/happy.gif" height=14 width=14>

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08-29-2004, 09:48 AM

Posted By: Hal LewisLeon did his job!! His offer was politely rejected, but the "market" value of a Peck & Snyder is now at $100,000 (at least in MY household!!). Does anyone need for me to return the favor and get them out of ther doghouse?? <img src="/images/happy.gif" height=14 width=14>

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08-29-2004, 09:58 AM

Posted By: Andy BaranThere was actually a GROUP of N167's in the Copeland auction, including a Ewing. It is definitely not the same card as mine or the Halper example. That raises the population to at least 3.

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08-29-2004, 10:05 AM

Posted By: Hal LewisThat means that there could be MORE THAN ONE in each Hemisphere!! Isn't that starting to border on a "common" ? <img src="/images/wink.gif" height=14 width=14>

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08-29-2004, 10:52 AM

Posted By: Hal LewisThe N167 Ewing sold for $4,312 in the 1999 Halper auction. <a href="http://search.sothebys.com/jsps/live/lot/LotDetail.jsp?sale_number=NY7354&live_lot_id=783" target=_new>http://search.sothebys.com/jsps/live/lot/LotDetail.jsp?sale_number=NY7354&live_lot_id=783</a>

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08-29-2004, 11:58 AM

Posted By: Jeff SHal- That's 4 of the last 5 posts, man. Positively Rudd-ian!

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08-29-2004, 12:33 PM

Posted By: Patrick McMenemyHi Andy: Terry had 2 perhaps 3 of the N167 Ewings. Since I have never been a 19th Century collector, I remarked to him what a great looking design for that set....but I wasn't aware of how truly rare the card and set actually were..Terry brought them to my attention since I mentioned I was looking strictly for catchers. Patrick

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08-29-2004, 08:47 PM

Posted By: warshawlawAndy: congrats on your find. I know exactly how you feel since I found a card at the National that has been on my list for years. I've stopped trying to deal with the wife at all on the cards and $$ front (I just say I earned it so I can spend it), but this line has worked well for me in the past: "I don't screw around, I don't go out drinking, I don't belong to a fancy golf club, I just collect cards and they appreciate in value. Now, would you prefer it if I rejoined the country club at a grand a month and started playing three rounds a week?" Shuts her right down. Well, that plus my agreement on lot o' home improvements when I settle a good case...