back damage to a Mayo

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Posted By: <b>warshawlaw&nbsp; </b><p>I was recently sold a "vg" Mayo with a decent horizontal crease. when I got it, the card had about 15% of the back surface missing from scrapbook removal (probably what generated the front crease too). IMHO a card in this shape is no better than fair. Am I on base?

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Posted By: <b>Greg Ecklund</b><p>You are absolutely right - I recently bought a few Exhibit cards from Ebay that had the same problem. I ended up getting a partial refund because I still liked the cards, but the back damage obviously lowered the resale value should I ever want to part with them in the future.<br /><br />You would not be out of line to ask to return the card or to negotiate a partial refund.

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Posted By: <b>The Other One (Julie)</b><p>there are collectors who consider the black back of as Mayo no more saacrosanct than the blank back of an Old Judge...I belong to the hell with it Old Judge back school--but not the Mayo. So why didn't you ask for a back scan, or at least a back report? If he implied that aside from the crease, the card was great, he lied.

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Posted By: <b>Brian H (misunderestimated)</b><p>I think one would be hard pressed to argue that it doesn't bring the grade way down (that's how all collectors and grading services I have ever dealt with would view it).... But Julie's point is certainly valid: it is like an Old Judge with back problems in that it doesn't bother me personally nearly as much as it would with an issue that had something printed on the back in the first place.

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Posted By: <b>Greg Ecklund</b><p>While back damage matters for certain cards more than others, it should be left up to the buyer rather than the seller to determine what is important regarding condition. Honest sellers should point out all flaws in a card and let the buyer make the call.<br /><br />I'm much more likely to be a repeat buyer from someone who makes an effort to give a detailed description, flaws and all, than someone who conveniently "forgets" to mention back damage.

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Posted By: <b>James Verrill</b><p><br />My opinion (subjective, and opinion only) is that paper loss is the single greatest down-grading factor when assessing a card's condition. If the paper loss is on the front of the card, I agree that FAIR is, well - a fair condition assignment.<br /><br />And, I do agree with your observation that paper loss on the back of "ad-backed" candy, tobacco, etc. cards is perceived as far more critical in affecting overall condition than paper loss on the backs of Mayo cards.<br /><br />James Verrill

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Posted By: <b>warshawlaw</b><p>I will not deal with this seller ever again, even if he refunds my payment, because I cannot trust what he says. Sorry Julie, but I don't believe it is the buyer's job to cross-examine the seller over condition on a $50 card that the seller lists as vg, especially when the seller has been around a long time and knows card grading. <br /><br />You really have to ask yourself as a seller whether it is worth a few extra bucks not to disclose a significant flaw in a card and to alienate a customer. When I sell raw cards, I overemphasize the flaws.

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Posted By: <b>IMO</b><p>IMO I agree with everyone here - paper loss is a great detractor from a card. This is particularly true when the card is not a blank back card. <br /><br />Now, if you go to the more recent Mastro auctions they tend to believe otherwise - look at the blank back cards from the 1800's. The will grade the cards "irrespective" of any back imperfections. That means that you can have an ExMt card with paper loss, writing or scrap book remnant on it. Is this right? Does everyone agree with this practice?

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Posted By: <b>The Other One (Julie)</b><p>lied."--me.

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Posted By: <b>leon</b><p>If you read the Mastro thesis on each card (which can be quite entertaining in itself) they will tell you there is whatever damage and "irrespective" of this (or whatever other disclosure word they use) the card is in xx condition. You just gotta read the descriptions closely. As long as everything is openly disclosed I can make my own assessments on technical grades. I know that in earlier collecting days condition wasn't as important to most. This ain't earlier days though......So in summation I don't really have an issue with them doing this. Heck most dealers sell 1-2 grades higher than the card anyway....later