Another 19th Century Research Project

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Posted By: <b>Jimmy Leiderman</b><p>Not even near as important as Hal's P&S project, but if a descendant of the Peck & Snyder founder was found, I too would like to try my luck.<BR><BR>Cabinet card photograph of the 1870 Lincoln BBC, Bonn - Germany.<BR>Talk about obscure...<BR><BR><img src="http://www.network54.com/Realm/19cBB/linc1870.jpg"><BR><img src="http://www.network54.com/Realm/19cBB/linc18702.jpg">

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Posted By: <b>ramram</b><p>Hey Jimmy -<BR>I think you actually have an American photograph. Had it been made in Bonn, Germany, then the photographer's stamp would all contain German words (not "cabinet", etc.). Plus, I don't think a small team could ever afford to take a base ball trip to Germany in 1870 nor could they afford to haul that much lumber (look at all those bats!). My guess is that there is small town in the US with the name of Bonn or else it is a town that has disappeared or changed its name. It could have even had the name change at the time of one of the World Wars as that name would not be very popular in this country at that time. The town was likely populated by many German immigrants. Pennsylvania would be the first to come to mind. I know they had a Lincoln BBC from there. Wright's book shows some player's names from 1867 but the only one that matches is "Lawrence". I doubt they would have that much turnover by 1870 unless it was a school team. Regardless, my bet would be that Bonn was in the US (but not necessarily where this team was from as they may have traveled there for the photo...but likely were from near Bonn).

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Posted By: <b>Hal Lewis</b><p>I agree that it is American ... and therefore MUCH cooler and more valuable!<BR><BR>

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Posted By: <b>Hal Lewis</b><p>There is a Bonn, Ohio ... and it is only 50 miles from Pittsburgh ... so maybe they are from there??<BR><BR>Try seeing if you can find anything on-line about how to get in touch with a local historian for that town.<BR>

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Posted By: <b>Hal Lewis</b><p>And there is a LINCOLN, Pennsylvania only about 40 miles from BONN, Ohio!!!<BR><BR>Lincoln is just southwest of Pittsburgh!!

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Posted By: <b>hankron</b><p>Irrelevant to location, it is a fine early baseball photo. Image and pose-wise, it would be hard to find a better example from that early.

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Posted By: <b>Hal Lewis</b><p>One of the players has a last name of SOOTE (which seems like a rare one)...<BR><BR>and the 1870 OHIO census has a 44-year-old named CHESTER SOOTE (white male) living in Cuyahoga County, Ohio (just south of Cleveland).<BR><BR>Maybe he is one of the guys?

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Posted By: <b>Hal Lewis</b><p>there is a 21-year-old white male named Charles Alger in Cuyahoga County, Ohio in 1870 as well.

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Posted By: <b>Hal Lewis</b><p>I think the American flags show that the picture was taken in the US.<BR><BR>I think the "LINCOLN" reference may have nothing to do with the LOCATION of the team ...<BR><BR>but may be more in honor of the PRESIDENT who was assassinated only 5 years earlier.<BR><BR>If so, then this "Lincoln" team may very well have come from Bonn, Pennsylvania?

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Posted By: <b>Hal Lewis</b><p>Then again ... even though the language on the photographer's stamp is in ENGLISH ...<BR><BR>the ADDRESS for the photo studio says "STRASSE" ... which is STREET in GERMAN.<BR><BR>Perhaps this was taken in BONN, Germany, after all!!

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Posted By: <b>leon</b><p>If Jimmy were a client of yours he would probably owe you about $8000.00 for the research you did in this thread <img src="/images/happy.gif" height=14 width=14>

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Posted By: <b>Jimmy Leiderman</b><p>Leon, keep it quiet! <img src="/images/happy.gif" height=14 width=14><BR><BR>Hal,Rob and David you have very valid points which I didn't think of, but just because the cabinet came along with a bunch of cdv's from german photographers (Other well known german cities)including some of the players in street clothes, made by the same photographer Hess and many from the Brooklyn, NY area.<BR>Really don't know where to start searching! <BR><BR><BR>I'm including two cdv scans from the same lot, both by photographer Wilhelm Hess.<BR><BR><BR><img src="http://www.network54.com/Realm/19cBB/hess2.jpg"><BR><img src="http://www.network54.com/Realm/19cBB/hess1.jpg">

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Posted By: <b>Hal Lewis</b><p>I believe that the subsequent photos show definite proof of being taken in Bonn, Germany. <BR><BR>This must be an American team that was in Germany for some reason ... although I am curious as to who they would play over there!!<BR><BR>

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Posted By: <b>ramram</b><p>That does make this a little more interesting. There is a street in Bonn by that name as well. Confusing. <BR><BR>Jimmy - Take a quick look at this and see if it ties into any of your images (look under "Owens").<BR><BR><a href="http://64.233.167.104/search?q=cache:GCdF0kDDJhcJ:www.pa-roots.com/~clearfield/townships/sandy/oldwestlib.html+%22harrie+owens%22+%2Bgermany&hl=en" target=_new>http://64.233.167.104/search?q=cache:GCdF0kDDJhcJ:www.pa-roots.com/~clearfield/townships/sandy/oldwestlib.html+%22harrie+owens%22+%2Bgermany&hl=en</a>

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Posted By: <b>Jimmy Leiderman</b><p>Excellent point... diplomat's families.<BR>That could very well be the case here.<BR>How many non-pro clubs could use this kind of expensive uniforms in that era.<BR>I need to make a closer scan of the hats (Two crossed bats and ball)<BR>One thing is pretty much sure, It wasn't a poor club.<BR><BR>None of the names on the cemetery link are related to the photographs.<BR>One thing I do know is that most of the photographs were related to Charles and Clarence Lexow, both pictured on the team image, with pictures taken in both Germany and the US (NY)<BR><BR>Hal, I can pay up to $9.60 (The ammount on the P&S invoice) for your research <img src="/images/happy.gif" height=14 width=14><BR><BR>

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Posted By: <b>ramram</b><p>Probably doesn't mean a thing but...for what it's worth...Mary Todd Lincoln (Abe's wife) apparently spent 1868 - 1870 in Germany. Could this have any ties with a diplomatic mission, etc.?? At first I thought the Old bag in your photo might be Mary Todd but upon review I don't think so. Still it's an odd message that's written on the back of her photo.<BR><BR>1868<BR>Mary and Tad traveled to Europe and spent much of the next 3 years in Frankfurt, Germany. Tad was a student at Dr. D. Hohagen's Institute near Frankfurt from October, 1868, to April of 1870. On September 24, 1868, Robert Lincoln married Mary Eunice Harlan.

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Posted By: <b>ramram</b><p>Jimmy - did you note the reference in the cemetary info to "children of Mr. & Mrs. Harrie Owens" from Pennsylvania? The dates would fit but it's starting to sound like there's not necessarily a tie to the Pennsylvania area. Oh well.

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Posted By: <b>Hal Lewis</b><p>I am not sure that Harrie Owens has "no connection"...<BR><BR>because even though the team was FILMED in Germany ... I think we all agree that they are AMERICANS who were just visiting over there.<BR><BR>So Harrie Owens had to come from SOMEWHERE ... so the cemetery records may be important!

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Posted By: <b>hankron</b><p>It's a German photograph of a baseball team. Of significance is that it is a cabinet card. Baseball cabinet cards from that early are rare. Most baseball photos then were the smaller and cheaper CDV.

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Posted By: <b>Jimmy Leiderman</b><p>David, don't have any books at hand to search for this info, but how much time went since the first use of the cabinet card in Europe till it was used in the US?<BR>I think that the CDV was first used in America some 5-6 years after it's first appearance in Europe. Please correct me if I'm wrong here.<BR><BR><BR><BR>

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Posted By: <b>Julie Vognar</b><p>I have read a lot of 19th century books printed in Germany, and a lot of later 20th century books printed in Germany. Also handwriting in German from both centuries. With reference to the two OTHER cards (The "Mother" and "father"):<BR><BR>1) The line at the bottom of the back is printed in a German style rarely used any more--many modern readers of German have trouble with it. It says: "The original plate" (I assume this means glass plate--anyway, the original plate-"of this photo will be supplied for additional payment." (All in very polite form). But this doesn't of course mean it wasn't printed in a German community in the U.S!<BR>2) HOWEVER, "Bonn" has been a very important city in Germany for a long time, and is here presented WITHOUT the name of the country. It is unlikely that a U.S. "Bonn" would be mentioned without the name of the state.<BR>3) The handwriting (guess there's no question about this anyhow) is NOT that of a German of the time--I can't read a word of 19th century German script. Even that of a German writing in English!<BR><BR>4) The Language of the back of the card is definitely German; "Str" stands for "Strasse," never "Street." The name of the street, ending in "zer," is also strictly German. And the line of print at the bottom of course.

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Posted By: <b>hankron</b><p>Jimmy, nearly all of the early photographic processes and styles were invented in Europe and exported to the U.S. I'm no expert on early German photography, but it would not be surprising to find out that the cabinet card was popular in Germany before America.<BR><BR>Any quality baseball team photo from 1870 or earlier is rare. A quality 1870 or earlier team cabinet card is extremely unusual.<BR>

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Posted By: <b>Jimmy Leiderman</b><p>Julie, great info on german writting style.<BR><BR>Any of you know how to work with those vast genealogy resources on the internet?<BR>I have almost all of the players complete names but don't know where to start.<BR><BR>Here's a closer scan of the hats with crossed bats and ball I wrote about in an earlier post.<BR><BR><img src="http://www.network54.com/Realm/19cBB/closelincoln.jpg">

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Posted By: <b>brucers99</b><p>BONN, a town of Germany, in the Prussian Rhine province, on the left bank of the Rhine, 15 m. S. by E. from Cologne, on the main line of railway to Mainz, and at the junction of the lines to the Eifel and (by ferry) to the right bank of the Rhine. Pop. (1885) 35,989; (1905) 81,997. The river is here crossed by a fine bridge (1896-1898), 1417 ft. in length, flanked by an embankment 2 m. long, above and parallel with which is the Coblenzer-strasse, with beautiful villas and pretty gardens reaching down to the Rhine. <BR><BR>Of course, there is the possiblility that the photograph was taken in the United States by a travelling photographer from Germany. My understanding is that this was not an uncommon practice.