"Interesting" N172 Dan Brouthers I purchased off eBay

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Posted By: <b>Joe_G.</b><p>Here is the original thread which was interesting in itself =&gt; <a href="http://www.network54.com/Forum/thread?forumid=153652&messageid=1085895899&lp=1086382739" target=_new>http://www.network54.com/Forum/thread?forumid=153652&messageid=1085895899&lp=1086382739</a><BR><BR>As planned, I met the seller in Niagara Falls Saturday morning. The offer was made and discussed to make the exchange the night we arrived (my girl friend & I) in the early hours of the morning but it was just too late and my eyes were tired. That was the same conversation that I learned he wasn't Kelly but instead James (James Stewart). Kelly is his girl friends name that he's been using on eBay.<BR><BR>The following morning I received a call from James again from the casino and learned he spent the night with his friend there (no sleep) which didn't seem to comfort me. We made the short drive over to the casino and met up with him in a small breakfast area. Turns out James is younger than me, 26, with a very non-typical hobbyist look to him (black leather, mean looking goatee, etc).<BR><BR>But that is where all the concern took a turn for the better, James knows his collecting and has many stories to tell. It was obvious that he is fairly well off. His main interest for some time was collecting rookie cards of everyone in the Hall of Fame. After conquering everyone from post WWII he turned efforts to the earlier issues including tobacco and 19th century. However, after obtaining many key cards his interest faded a bit and he is now shifting his collecting efforts to other memorabilia like autographs etc. He recently was taken for over $4,000 on a Cy Young autographed baseball but luckily got his money back. Also had stories about some of his finds/pick-ups while flying around the US (Atlantic City) etc.<BR><BR>Lots of stories, but lets talk about the card itself.<BR><BR>His N172 Brouthers looked much better in person than in picture in terms of looking real. I have very high confidence in its authenticity both with the naked eye and under a 10x loupe on the front, back, edges, etc. Beautiful card that I'd fully expect to grade around SGC88+ except for a very light signature that was erased from the back likely many years ago. The signature is hard to find, requiring the proper light and angle to detect it was ever there. I don't know how far this will drop the grade, it would be a shame to receive an SGC60 or 70 because of this small issue but I've seen it before.<BR><BR>So that is where I'm at, very happy with a beautiful Brouthers card hoping SGC won't drop the grade too far for the small indentations left on the card back. I'm over-nighting a package to them for "next day" grading to see how things go.<BR><BR>I'll get back to James once graded. I hope he didn't gamble the $1300 away, not because I think I'll need it back but because he seemed like a nice guy. I'll update this thread with the cards grade and some better quality pictures.<BR><BR>James still has some 19th century cards to sell off including an N172 Anson and McCarthy. I believe both are already slabbed by PSA with the Anson being a PSA 5. He isn’t very happy with the amount the Brouthers fetched and isn’t sure how he’ll sell the remaining cards. I do know he’d like around $4 - 4.5k for the Anson.

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Posted By: <b>Julie Vognar</b><p>Post a good scan for us when you get around to it! Thanks!

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Posted By: <b>Joe_G.</b><p>A bright light was placed at the side of the card to try and highlight the erased signature (back of card).<BR><BR><img src="http://www.network54.com/Realm/tmp/1086584453.JPG"> <BR><img src="http://www.network54.com/Realm/tmp/1086584464.JPG"> <BR><BR>Border thickness wise, it is very similar to a nice card I purchase from Jay Miller some time ago. While not common, it is possible to have thick borders on 1887 N172s.<BR><BR><img src="http://www.network54.com/Realm/tmp/1086584688.JPG"> <BR><BR>I should have the card back from SGC by the end of the week.

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Posted By: <b>leon</b><p>Nice story. I have never seen SGC grade any card above a 50, that had an indention from a pencil/mark, though they might have at some time. I have a few 19th Century issues crossed that were PSA 7MK's and they came back SGC 50's. Great ending either way as it's a beautiful card. Thanks for updating us.....best regards, leon

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Posted By: <b>jay behrens</b><p>Great story. You could substitute me as the guy looking like a punk rocker and that would be in the early 80s when I first moved to CA. Most dealers had serious reservation about letting me see any big ticket vintage cards since I am sure they assumed I was looking to run off with them. Mark Macrae was the only dealer that bothered to spend any time talking to me. <BR><BR>Seeing me set up at a show, I was totally the opposite, usually wearing a dress shirt and somet times a tie. One of the best buys I ever made at a show was from an elderly lady that sold me all her husbands Goudeys. I asked her if she ahd gotten some offered from other deaelers and she said she wanted to sell them to me because I was the only dealer wearing a tie. <img src="/images/happy.gif" height=14 width=14><BR><BR>Jay

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Posted By: <b>Joe_G.</b><p>Julie, it was ~5hr drive for me from Detroit suburbs. We made a weekend out of the trip and took in all Niagara Falls (Canadian side) had to offer.<BR><BR>About the origin of the card, it came from Dave Levin who still has it on his web site as sold. Not sure what Dave graded the card at or what the transaction price was but it's the same card.

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Posted By: <b>Judge Dred</b><p>Wow - I'm happy to hear that someone came across a good deal on ebay lately. The 5 hour drive was definitely worth it. Congratulations on a fine score!!!

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Posted By: <b>Judge Dred</b><p>It's been a short while - has the card been graded? If so, what's the grade?<BR><BR>

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Posted By: <b>Joe_G.</b><p>It did come back but graded lower than I hoped. Scott Hileman from SGC called me on the card and explained the situation. Basically, the card would grade SGC80+ front and back except for the imprint left on back from an early signature. This brought it all the way down to SGC40 but Scott said he'd be happy to take another look at it at the National. I believe I can get it graded SGC50 as I have similar cards graded as such. It's a borderline 40/50 card for SGC.<BR><BR>In this instance, a grading scale like PSA would be nice. Likely a "PSA 7 w mark". I don't intend to sell so it will likely stay in an SGC holder like my others. It makes for one beautiful SGC 40/50.

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Posted By: <b>Judge Dred</b><p>Regardless of the grade the card is beautiful. One of the main reasons I get cards encapsulated is to protect them for future generations. I have a few cards graded by SGC that have been downgraded for similar reasons. I'm blown away by the 40 grade (a bit low) but as you stated it's not going anywhere. You made a great score on the card and if you want to sell it, let the bull board know - I'm sure you'll get some action on it.

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Posted By: <b>warshawlaw</b><p>I also happen to think PSA's qualifiers are silly. A card that is perfect except for a urine stain is not a 9(ST), it is toilet paper.

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Posted By: <b>leon</b><p>I agree but with a comment (about qualifiers). I have an N175 McCarthy that was a PSA 7 MK....the MK is an erased pencil mark on the back, and under intense magnification, a minute indention can be seen. The card is awesome otherwise. I resubmitted to SGC. It came back an SGC50.....vg-ex. I probably lost money on the deal but wanted it in an SGC holder for the registry. Other less trivial qualifiers/issues might be more fair but this one sucked. I guess the solution here is maybe to have SGC not hit so hard for this technicality? later

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Posted By: <b>david</b><p>having a card graded 7 mk is like having a card graded mint except for a crease. we all laugh when we see sellers listing items on ebay this way. a card that is graded 7 mk is not a 7. if grading companies would just follow the accepted guidlines for the respective grades it would make things a lot easier, unfortunately that is rarely the case

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Posted By: <b>Judge Dred</b><p>I always thought that the whole idea behind PSA qualifiers was to grade a card on appearance. It's kind of like curb appeal to a potential home buyer except the qualifier will let you know that the house has termites, a cracked foundation or a hardwood floor with urine stains.<BR><BR>I would guess that the qualifier makes the card look a bit more attractive. I have been given several "rules of thumb" regarding qualifiers. Basically I've been told to knock off between 1 to 2 grade levels for a qualifier. <BR><BR>SGC is pretty much to the letter with respect to their grading but I've seen PSA shoot down nice condition cards with holes to a PSA1 where SGC has given like cards grades of SGC20 and 30. Not much difference but PSA did downgrade it further. I don't think that PSA has a qualifier for paper loss or holes. <BR><BR>In any case SGC holders are nicer looking. I used to like SGC but anymore the reputable grading companies have all become the same to me. It wouldn't be fair to group PSA and SGC in with AAA or Pro.

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Posted By: <b>Joe_G.</b><p>I know of several SGC50 with equal or worse writing on back. The card just doesn't look right with an SGC40 grade, but that could just be me. Again, I placed the light at an angle to try and highlight the imprint from the old signature (near bottom).<BR><BR><img src="http://www.network54.com/Realm/tmp/1088466987.JPG"> <BR><img src="http://www.network54.com/Realm/tmp/1088466999.JPG"> <BR><BR>As I already mentioned, I bought the card to add to my collection, I have no plans of selling so the grade isn't of utmost importance.