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06-03-2004, 07:22 PM

Posted By: Scott GardinerHi all, I've long had an interest in late 1800's-1930's baseball and would like to get involved in card collecting. Alas, I do not have the resources to go after the big-ticket items. So for a guy like me who is in it for the love of the hunt and the game, what is the best way to start my collection? Would it be the W cards? I like a good looking card but i'm not a serious collector (yet) who notices every imperfection. Your help would be appreciated. Scott

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06-03-2004, 09:34 PM

Posted By: hankronI would suggest you buy a copy of the Standard Catalog of Baseball Cards by Bob Lemke (Krause Publications). It catalogs and describes all the major baseball card issues. You might wish to experiment by buying a variety of less expesnive items that catch your eye. 1909-11 T206s and 1933-4 Goudeys are just three sets that are highly popular with collectors due to their eye appeal.

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06-04-2004, 02:33 AM

Posted By: jay behrensDefinately get some books and familiarize yourself with the various issues. Then go to shows and and start looking at cards getting a feel for what is real and what is fake. If you are mainly chasing low grade cards like do, then there is no real fear of getting a fake unless you are going after a big ticket item. And then you are better off buying a slabbed card or buying from a dealer you trust. You might also consider narrowing you interest to a certain set, team or player. Jay

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06-04-2004, 04:02 AM

Posted By: Joe P.Another reading comprehension, or half knowledge in the subject matter? Quote Jay: "If you are mainly chasing low grade cards like do, then there is no real fear of getting a fake unless you are going after a big ticket item. And then you are better off buying a slabbed card or buying from a dealer you trust. " * * * Or maybe you missed my mentioning of it, or you just don't know about it. <a href="http://www.t206museum.com/page/periodical_5.html" target=_new>http://www.t206museum.com/page/periodical_5.html</a>

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06-04-2004, 06:40 AM

Posted By: billybaseballAlso as a relatively new attendee of this forum, I have to say that its sad that a good portion of what seems to be written about is related to fraudulent cards. Real vs authentic cards? Doctored? Reprint? Is this grading service reliable? etc. I am in no way putting down this group nor anyone in it. I am glad this group exists, and I think that this group is extremely helpful and generous with its willingness to review items in question, and to share their amazing collection of knowledge. What I am trying to say is that I can only imagine how much more interesting this board (and hobby) would be if that area of the hobby was not so prevalent. And what about those folks who are not internet savy or just do not know of this board? They may be blissfully creating a collection unaware of the fact that they are being ripped off. Maybe "ignorance is bliss"? I have what I think is a 1922 V61 Neilson's Chocolate Charles Robertson card that I bought at a card show many years ago. It didn't even cross my mind that it may be a fake and I was happy about getting it as I pursued my cards of pitchers that have pitched perfect games. Now I have doubts about its authenticity. For all I know, it could be so obvious to an experienced collector, but that doesn't help me (or others). So not only am I gun shy about buying over the internet, but the fun of going to a card show has been tarnished. I don't know the people of the hobby such that I could understand who to stay away from or even who to ask while at the show. As per a suggestion, I've been reading Lew Lipset's "Encyclopedia of Baseball Cards". While it is loaded with information about vintage card issues, I don't feel any more comfortable that I can tell a legit verses a fake card. I had hoped to pursue T202 Triple Folder cards. But even with some information that I've found on the internet about reprints, I still am not able to see what many board memebers can see when they identify a fraudulent card. OK...so I should stick to graded cards. Well, that's sad in my mind but perhaps its the reality. However, then I read the article that was referenced in this thread (<a href="http://www.t206museum.com/page/periodical_5.html" target=_new>http://www.t206museum.com/page/periodical_5.html</a>) that Al Rosen, the well-known collector, and a well known grading service were fooled. You can imagine how that increases my feelings of "what chance does a rookie like me have?". Many of you have been pursuing this hobby (business?) for many years. Would it be fair to say that many of you learned about the legitmacy of cards because for so many years there were not really any fakes to deal with? Without any real need to "study" what makes something real, you just acquired the knowledge from having been surrounded by real cards. When the fakes started appearing (at least to the extent they do now), you had already been seeing and touching legit cards for so long, you just knew there was something wrong. It seems like the creation of reprints without any obvious "reprint" markings is a huge can of worms. But they exist, and from what I've been reading here, they are often of amazing quality. Ideally, the companies that make the reprints would take it upon themselves to address this problem, but I don't know how likely that is. With so much money being involved as the prices of the cards increase, there's so much incentive for the scum of the earth to show their ugliness. I guess all that can be done is to try and pass on the knowledge to others. I welcome hearing other's ideas or opinions. BillyB

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06-04-2004, 07:30 AM

Posted By: leonThe best way to arm yourself against fraudulent cards is by handling as many as you can, imo. Most of us that have been doing it for several years (and I am a relative newbee) can hold a card and "feel" if it is legit or not. David Rudd (Cycleback aka Hankron on the board) has several reference books you might want to get too. I have a few of them and they are very good. Out of all of the cards I have bought (probably a few thousand) I have exactly one fake, that I know of. <img src="/images/sad.gif" height=14 width=14> It is a Brunners Bread D304 that I bought on ebay, about 6 years ago, for $40. I have kept it as a reminder even after the seller said he would take it back in trade for other cards....but all he had was new stuff anyway so now I have the reminder of what NOT to do. Once you have handled enough old cards you will start to be able to "feel" the age of them. The petina of old paper can not be faked very well. If you put an old card in the palm of your hand, laying flat, and look at it at an angle, you will be able to see the uneven gloss too. That uneven gloss look is almost impossible to fake. The "feel" of old paper is also impossible to fake, or at least I have not seen any I was fooled by. As for buying on the internet it is always caveat emptor. If you buy graded cards from PSA, SGC, or GAI you will be safe 99.999% of the time, on fakes. Alterations is another bag of worms but that is a whole nuther thread. Buy from respected dealers or ebayers at first and you should be ok. Oldcardboard.com has a list of good dealers that sell thousands of cards a day/week and that might be a good list of folks to buy from to start out with. Good luck and happy collecting !!!!!

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06-04-2004, 08:49 AM

Posted By: Kevin OAlthough it's discouraging to know that there are so many fakes and alterations, you have to familiarize yourself with their marks unless you like to throw your money into the street. I did not buy a single vintage card until I had been researching them for more than a year--and I still managed to get ripped off twice (as far as I know). I would spot both cards today, but in many ways those purchases were the most important ones I've made. There are enough reputable dealers and traders who will guarantee their cards so that you can still have peace of mind at market prices or better. There are also plenty of dealers who will not be hostile if you return a card because you believe it's been overgraded or altered. Such folks do well because they know that in the long run we're going to keep coming back to them. The deal that seems too good to be true almost always is. I rarely buy professionally graded material because I like to touch and smell the actual cards (although I do have some slabbed cards). If you plan to go this route, it's important to examine the card live. Buy a portable microscope and a blacklight and learn how to use them. As long as you treat another person's cards with extreme care, the person will usually let you scrutinize them (the cards that is). It also helps to buy something from time to time. If the person's a jerk when you try to buy a card, just think what that person will be like when you try to return it. Feel free to ask others what their own experiences have been with a particular dealer. In the end, Leon's advice is best. Kurt Vonnegut once asked Jackson Pollock how to tell a good painting from a bad painting. Pollock's reply: "Look at a million painings." After you see a million cards, you'll know.

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06-04-2004, 11:31 AM

Posted By: hankronI think that if a new collector is starting with the idea that there are some fakes, that's a whole lot better than those people who drop thousands of dollars on Babe Ruth and Elvis autographs not fathoming that there is such a thing as a forged signature. I would tell someone to start by buying from eBay sellers who have a good return policy. A legitmate seller will not only allow a card to be returned if it's a fake, he or she will appologize! I would also tell the newbie to start by buying from good sellers. Ask other collectors for recommendations. Lastly, real collecting is about having fun and obtaining cool stuff to enjoy having around. It's not day trading and Wall Street investment potential. When someone asks me what I collect, I says "Cool stuff."

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06-04-2004, 12:08 PM

Posted By: jay behrensBilly, if you are looking to get into t202s, talk to my brother Lee, Brian Hodes or Julie. They are probably the most knowledgable poeple around here on that set. Jay

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06-04-2004, 02:02 PM

Posted By: Scott GardinerIs there a list of reputable dealers, Ebay or otherwise? That would be a very handy resource for a beginner like myself.

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06-04-2004, 03:21 PM

Posted By: hankronMy feeling is that experienced collectors on this board should recommend 1 or 2 quality sellers of vintage baseball cards sellers. This could be of invaluable help for beginners. Here are two: Lew Lipset, who wrote the Enclopedia of Baseball Cards, has a website at <a href="http://www.oldjudge.com" target=_new>http://www.oldjudge.com</a>/ He has periodical catalog auctions and also sells sometimes on ebay (id: theoldjudge) scgaynor on eBay is good source of cards and other vintage sports material

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06-04-2004, 04:18 PM

Posted By: bcornellScott- It's worth checking out the <a href="http://www.network54.com/Realm/V_B_C/vintagelinks.html" target="_blank">Vintage Links</a> page on this site. There is a short list of dealers, many of whom also sell on eBay. You may want to search on previous posts for "dealers" and/or "ebay", as well, to find posts similar to this one: <a href="http://www.network54.com/Forum/message?forumid=153652&messageid=1067585183" target=_new>http://www.network54.com/Forum/message?forumid=153652&messageid=1067585183</a> Bill

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06-05-2004, 01:29 AM

Posted By: Lee BehrensBilly, Go into the search and you will find that I put a link of T202 reprints. Because of the thickness of the white borders and the fact that not all the cards have been reprinted makes the T202s some of the easiest reprints to spot. I personally have only 2 reprints, like Leon a D304 Brunner and a T201, which is actually much nicer than the originals. I bought a Cracker reprints set because of the bios and expense of the original. I think a good link to start wold be one that had scans of originals next to reprints for each set. Billy if you want any help with starting the T202 set feel free to ask. Lee

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06-05-2004, 09:04 AM

Posted By: warshawlawGo to a show, preferably the National or a major regional show. The best possible way to learn about old cards is to see and handle them. Also, scope out a local card shop that has what you want to collect and get to know the owner. Buy a few items from him/her and you will have a good source of information and expertise (95% of the time <img src="/images/happy.gif" height=14 width=14> ).

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06-05-2004, 11:28 AM

Posted By: jay behrensSadly, most local shop owner don't have a clue about card issued prior to ww2. Hell, most of them can't even help you if you have anything that isn't a mainstream Topps, Bowman, Donruss, Fleer, Upper Deck issue. Bring ina regional issue to them and they will be dumb founded most of the time. If you are lucky enough to live in a town that actually has a shop that carries a good inventory of vintage, then yes, they are invaluable source. Jay

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06-05-2004, 12:46 PM

Posted By: hankronIn my experiece, the vast majority of eBay sellers are honest-- not perfect, but trying to do a good job. If the buyer learns to stay clear of the obvious trouble sellers, life is much easier .... If a deal sounds too good to be true, no returns, won't guarantee or even state authenticity, private auctions, very bad feedback, description doesn't produce confidence. The more experience a collector gains, the easier everything becomes. I have links to favorite sellers and auction houses-- sellers who are knowledgeable, effecient and sell items I am interested in. These are the folks I will buy a more expensive item or item I'm not familiar with-- because they know their stuff. Beyond knowledge and experience, I beleive the essential quality for a seller is honesty and sincerity. If he says he doesn't know a fact it's because he doesn't know, and if he says he got the warmup jacket directly from Greg Maddux that's because he got the jacket from Greg Maddux. He's stating facts .... Someone once asked me why I called an item an original, and I said "Because it's an original" .... All authenticity is is accuretly describing an item. If you came to my home and I say, "That's my dog, Henry," that's authenticity. With sellers I'm unfamiliar with, I look at the picture and the description and see if it's agreeable-- does she know what she is talking about, does she come across as honest or is a BSer. I hate BS. I check their feedback and see what else the sell. If I'm bidding on an inexpensive item, there are no heavy issues. Most sellers are honest and what's the worst that can happen, I lose the $10? I email and ask the sellers questions-- not a lot, but if there is a pressing issue including if I want more details or assurances. Sometimes their evasive answers tell me not to bid, sometimes their answers convice me that I should raise my bid. With experience, collectors will be able to make sounder judgements about the seller, the item for sale and value. This is why beginners should push off buying expensive items until later. Besides, price tag is no Holy Grail. Some of my all time favorite items cost me under $20. Don't let anyone tell you that a collectable isn't quality unless it has a minimal value.

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06-05-2004, 12:58 PM

Posted By: hankronI should add to eBay sellers, you should always try your best to answer sincere questions, if only for your own benifit. Even if you aren't able answer their factual questions or do what they want (Can you list all 4,000 names in the collection in alphabetical order?) but answer politely and timely, many bidders will still place a bid as you come as you come across as someone they want to deal with. To many bidders, no response does not build confience.

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06-05-2004, 02:54 PM

Posted By: Judge DredI will not bid on an ebay item if the seller does not respond to inquiries made about the item for auction. Truth be told - there are so many people out there selling reprints. I really dislike the ones that state: "it doesn't say REPRINT on it anywhere" "I've had it in my collection for years and I think it's real...." "I'm not sure if it's a reprint so I will sell it as a reprint..." "All sales final" ebay should have a reprint section - the only problem is that there is no way to police this type of selling - and then there is a bull board favorite... AAA grading services...