Robert Edwards M101-4 Sporting News Bucyrus Sheet

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Posted By: <b>Harry</b><p>I have always been interested in the M101-4/5 issue, so this sheet intrigued me. By the player composition, it is obvious that it is M101-4 and not M101-5. And since it is dated 1916, I would think that it can now be assumed that the M101-4 set came out in 1916. I had once thought that it was a 1917 set and the M101-5 was from 1916. Now, I feel (as others have stated) that both sets come from 1916.<BR><BR>In doing a little research on the piece, I saw that the same sheet was also offed in the November 2000 Mastro Fine Sports Auctions. The thing that concerned me is that in the earlier auction the sheet was described as being moderately restored and the current catalog makes absolutely no mention of this restoration. Quite a few other items in the Mastro catalog were also described as having minor restoration so I can only assume that moderate restoration is pretty significant. It is also interesting to note that the shee barely sold for $10,000 the first time around, and nearly $30,000 this time.<BR><BR>It is still one of the most significant and intriguing pieces that I have ever seen and would have certainly looked great on my basement wall.

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Posted By: <b>Todd (nolemmings)</b><p>I'd even be willing to build/dig a basement (scarcely seen in Arizona) if you told me I could have that sheet to hang on the wall.<BR><BR>M101-4 has always been easier to date, at least for me. If you review the microfiche at the library (i.e. if you have no life), you'll see that TSN ads for the set appeared regularly throughout 1916. Each ad would name the 20 players who would be appearing in the next "series".<BR><BR>M101-5 is more mysterious. Team designations of certain players dictate it was issued in 1916 also, but the player selection leads one to believe that it was issued before m101-4. Still, I have not seen any TSN ads from the relevant period that describe m101-5. Also, as I have posted before, I have yet to see what is clearly a m101-5 (not a shared number) with a Sporting News back, although I have not collected that set for very long. It would seem to me that any if such examples exist, they are clearly the exception and not the rule.<BR><BR>

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Posted By: <b>Harry</b><p>I never knew that. That probably means that certain series are tougher to find than others - just like the different series in some Goudey, Play Ball, Topps and Bowman issues. <BR><BR>As far as M101-5 cards with Sporting New backs, how about #171 Casey Stengel in the 2004 Standard Catalog? I assume that the Sporting News back is of that card since Krause seems to use corresponding back and front for all of their other entries.

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Posted By: <b>Todd (nolemmings)</b><p>The ads referred to "series", but as you know, the m101-4 cards all originated from the same 200 card sheet, so they were not printed at different times. The so-called series were nothing more than cards 1-20, 21-40, etc. The ads also allowed you to catch up on prior series you might have missed, and allowed you to obtain the cards all the way through December, 1916, so I doubt that there were any scarce series. Still, I suppose if one particular series contained more than its share of popular players at the time, it may have been more heavily requested.<BR><BR>As for your other point, I have not looked closely at all the SCD entries from the 2004 book, but can tell you that in prior years, they did not always match the fronts and backs of the cards on their pictures. Also, since Bob Lemke himself requested feedback from this board as to whether TSN backs are found on m101-5, I assume his database did not show an example of such a card. perhaps he would care to comment?

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Posted By: <b>Halleygator</b><p>PLEASE let us know if ANYONE has seen a "definite" M101-5 card (not a "shared number") that has a Sporting News back ... or any OTHER printed back.<BR><BR>Thanks!

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Posted By: <b>Halleygator</b><p>Here is what I gathered by looking at the PSA "pop report":<BR><BR>They have graded several definite M101-5 cards (that are NOT "shared" cards) and in the "pop report" they did NOT designate these as "Blank Back" cards (which is how 99% of the set is designated):<BR><BR>#23 Mordecai Brown<BR>#41 Gavvy Cravath ... etc.<BR><BR>THEN AGAIN ... it may just be that these particular M101-5 cards were graded a while ago by PSA ... BEFORE they realized that ALL of this set was made with Blank Backs???<BR><BR>I am interested to hear what everyone thinks...

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Posted By: <b>Todd (nolemmings)</b><p>I would let others elaborate, such as Tim Newcomb, but the m101-5s are not all blank backed. More than a half dozen other advertisers have m101-5 backs, the most plentiful being Famous & Barr and Standard Biscuit.<BR><BR>I've looked at that pop report before too, and believe it may be inaccurate as you suggest. Again, apparently (from another thread) Lew Lipset has confirmed that TSN backs can be found on m101-5, I'm just saying that if so, they are scarce.

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Posted By: <b>Halleygator</b><p>OK, got it! Thanks!<BR><BR>There are blank-backed M101-5's ... <BR><BR>and there are some "Printed Back" M101-5's from various regional advertisers ...<BR><BR>and apparently there are a precious few M101-5's that specifically have a "Sporting News" back.<BR><BR>I would still like to see an M101-5 "Sporting News" backed card if anyone has a scan!!

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Posted By: <b>Tim Newcomb</b><p>So would I, Hal. I've seen no concrete evidence that they exist. If Lew says they do, then I'm certainly willing to believe it, but where are they? They must be almost impossible to find. <BR><BR>I'll email Lew shortly and see if I can get more definite word on his basis for believing they exist. <BR><BR>My best guess is that both M101-5 and M101-4 should be dated 1916, but possibly at opposite ends of the year.<BR><BR>Tim

[toppcat]

Wow, this thread is old....I found a reference to what might be the initial hobby acquisition of this sheet in the Trader Speaks from January 1975. John Stirling came up with it apparently. Stirling put out an early price guide that predated Sport-Americana and isn't that well known but he was deep into things back in the 70's. Some other tidbits too, fun times:

[nolemmings]

Thanks for posting that Dave. I see where author Dischley mis-attributes the sheet to m101-5, although I suppose it's possible that this is a different sheet (wouldn't that be cool?). It's also neat to see how he almost crows about obtaining and then immediately flipping a T206 Wagner for $1300, which he says is the fourth Wagner he had landed. Yowser.