Help with ebay seller [Archive] - Net54baseball.com Forums

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02-03-2004, 09:26 PM

Posted By: icecanuck  Just won an auction from an ebayer calling themselves "sportscarddirect". At first it appeared that I got a good deal but looking over their other auctions I have to wonder about the legitimacy of this seller. It appears as though they have all these great high end cards graded by some unknown grader. Anyone have any reccomendations of what to do in situations such as these ???? Here is a link to the sellers completed auctions - <a href="http://cgi6.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?MfcISAPICommand=ViewListedItems&userid=sportscarddirect&include=0&since=14&sort=3&rows=25" target=_new>http://cgi6.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?MfcISAPICommand=ViewListedItems&userid=sportscarddirect&include=0&since=14&sort=3&rows=25</a> Any comments would be appreciated

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02-03-2004, 09:39 PM

Posted By: MWWhich auction did you win?

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02-03-2004, 09:50 PM

Posted By: Anonymousone of the 53T Mantle's - hard to tell from the scan but card looks OK (if it's legit). Concerned about the no return on graded cards policy.....why the need to make that stipulation ? If I had it graded by PSA and it came back a couple of grades lower I wouldn't be pissed. If it came back being ungradeable I'd be pissed and I'd have a feeling the seller would know why.....of course these thoughts didn't come to me sooner

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02-03-2004, 09:50 PM

Posted By: Jon CanfieldSomeone better tell the seller that '33 ain't the Babe's rookie...

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02-03-2004, 10:11 PM

Posted By: John(z28jd)<a href="http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&category=642&item=2762716732" target=_new>http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&category=642&item=2762716732</a> Its a little odd that he won a mint looking but rejected as trimmed 52 Bowman Mantle,but then has one for sale graded by PCG as a 9 <a href="http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&category=16271&item=2783465930" target=_new>http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&category=16271&item=2783465930</a> He has also bought Pete Rose rookie ungraded and several PSA cards in the past,so he obviously knows PSA cards usually go for more money than any other company,especially no name ones like PCG,kind of makes you wonder about his choice of graders

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02-04-2004, 06:15 AM

Posted By: JulieGenerically, that's such a great Mantle card! Have you paid for it yet? And how do you "not pay for" something you've won--for future information use? If it were me, and I hadn't paid a raw card price for it (which is what you did), I'd be happy with it. Not thinking about resale, of course.

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02-04-2004, 06:28 AM

Posted By: leonI would not buy a high graded card from a semi-unknown company. I would want a guarantee it would cross over to GAI or SGC....or maybe PSA (this last one to satisfy the masses but not for me). If you look in the last link that Ben put up it was for a card that came back trimmed. The seller does disclose this but I have to wonder if any of his trimmed cards got put into other company's holders (PCG)....again, this is all conjecture on my part. I still wouldn't buy real high condition cards in these holders though.....there's my 1/4 cent worth

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02-04-2004, 06:59 AM

Posted By: Juliea) it's a '53 mantle, not a '52 (Bowman), which is what I thought it was when I said what a great card it (generally) is. I don't see Ben anywhere in this column! he's "twistedude," "fisherboy7@hotmail.com" and "mc big_ben"--something. No way does he have 197 feedback under "acanuck"

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02-04-2004, 07:00 AM

Posted By: Julie<img src="/images/happy.gif" height=14 width=14>

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02-04-2004, 07:10 AM

Posted By: John(z28jd) I didnt say that it was the same card as he bought,i just pointed out that the seller knowingly bought a trimmed card(that the previous seller described as nrmt looking)and now he just happens to have the same card in an unknown companies holder graded 9. Thats why i provided the 2 different links,if it was the same card as icecanuck bought i wouldnt have given the 2nd link because he already posted the link to see that.That would be redundent. It wasnt a mistake,i was pointing out that the guy possibly buys nice looking trimmed cards and gets a nobody company(maybe he runs the company?) to grade them.

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02-04-2004, 07:49 AM

Posted By: Julie VognarThe first "mistake" I commented on was mine (mistaking a '53 T mantle for a '52 Bowman Mantle--one of my favorite cards, and one I do not have). The second mistake was saying that 'Ben" had posted in this column--not my mistake. I said nothing about the basic thrust of the column, which was to say that seller apparently purchases trimmed cards and gets them holdered by this strange compnay... NOW I'll probably catch hell for saying that from the seller!

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02-04-2004, 08:12 AM

Posted By: Anonymous...

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02-04-2004, 09:17 AM

Posted By: leonI mentioned it was Ben who put the links up and it was John Z-dude....sorry bout that....after continuing reading the posts on this thread I even more agree that I would be berry berry careful buying these PCG cards.....good luck

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02-04-2004, 09:19 AM

Posted By: iccecanuckThanks for all the feedback, I haven't paid for the card and was considering asking the seller if he would agree to have the card cross-graded. I doubt that he will agree and have a feeling that I'm going to get a neg from the seller...........what else can I do ???

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02-04-2004, 10:44 AM

Posted By: runscottThough it hasn't yet happened to me, I would never pay someone for something that I discovered had been misrepresented. I'm sure there are those who disagree with me on this and I would love to hear their opinions.

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02-04-2004, 11:10 AM

Posted By: T206Collector...tell him that I will pay him, but that I am going to have the card reslabbed by PSA or SGC. I would further tell the seller that if the card turns out to be improperly altered/non-authentic, that I will be returning it for a full refund. He likely will balk and not want to follow-up with you, thus not requiring you to send payment and hopefully avoiding a negative feedback. No harm no foul. He may take you up on your offer, which is a plus. I suspect if you can get a continuing dialogue going with the seller about your concerns that he will probably choose to find another unwitting buyer that won't be such a headache. He doesn't want the negative feedback either, and he certainly doesn't want any fraud or small claims court lawsuits. But that's just me. I wouldn't have bid on a card slabbed by a strange third party grading source in the first instance, unless it was a good price for a trimmed card. There exists a presumption of guilt when a seller knowingly avoids PSA/SGC/GAI and their higher sales returns and instead opts to have their cards graded by an unknown entity.

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02-04-2004, 11:49 AM

Posted By: leonThat seller "cardsnwaxsupplies" or something like that put up an E104 HOF- Baker with a BIN of $200.00....it had just gone up and I knew I didn't have time to ask questions so I hit the BIN. I then went ahead and asked for a scan of the card I just won. When the yoyo sent a scan it was of the same card that Greg (hey Greg) BOTN bought recently that is an unidentified card. The only other problem was this was the 1 of the 2 cards that had the name completely trimmed off of the bottom. I told the guy I didn't want it as it was not what he had advertised and I would pay half his relisting fee to help matters....(which I thought was more than fair as he had totally misrepresented the item). He came back and said "no way" and that he wanted a full refund of listing fees. He said he had looked in the 1700 page SCD and this was the best id he could do. I told him he was dead wrong, and by the way, he could look in the front of the book and see my name as a contributor <img src="/images/happy.gif" height=14 width=14> (he was explaining to me what this book was) Well, this whole thing got me a little stirred up. I told him that if he could sell me what he advertised no problem....and now...if not, he could shove it up his ace....I also sent a nice jpeg of an SGC graded E104 Plank so he could have a clue. He then sent me, through ebay, a non paying bidder alert. He also called me an ahole in all caps.....I then fired off about 3 emails with most of the 4 letter words I know. Next thing I know stupid Yahoo sends me a cease and whatever email about terrorist threats blah blah blah......Hopefully this dumbass won't give me a neg on the 60th day but I am not holding my breath....so, the short answer is "yes" I have bought and not paid for items that turned out to be bad on ebay before...breast regards

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02-04-2004, 12:05 PM

Posted By: Aaron M."Thanks for all the feedback, I haven't paid for the card and was considering asking the seller if he would agree to have the card cross-graded. I doubt that he will agree and have a feeling that I'm going to get a neg from the seller...........what else can I do ???" Next time use more common sense. How many times have you heard the old adage, "If it seems to good to be true, it probably is." In the card business it's pretty much, "If it seems to good to be true, it's fraud." You acknowledge you thought you getting a "good deal" and bid prior to checking the seller's other transactions history or items for sale. You also acknowledge that you didn't bring up the issue of "cross-grading" until after you had bid and the auction was over. Hmnn. What to do? Come on!!!! Shouldn't you have asked these questions prior to bidding? You also bid on a card graded by a virtually unknown grading card service (these companies are all, almost to a rule, shyster grading services who knowingly grade trimmed or otherwise altered cards or questionable reprints). I mean ask yourself, why would a dealer have his cards graded by some unknown service when he could get a lot more resale value if it were a PSA card? Simple, because PSA WON'T grade the card! Come on. You found this site and seem to have some knowledge of the hobby. Now just try and apply some common sense. You have two choices. Negotiate your way out of the purchase if you can get the seller to agree that neither party will leave the other negative feedback and you won't initiate an E-Bay fraud investigation. (Which you promise to leave if the card is rejected as trimmed by PSA.) Or you can keep your money and accept the negative feedback as a lesson learned. DON'T send your money, because at least now you know what you would be getting.

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02-04-2004, 02:27 PM

Posted By: icecanuckouch, that's the truth the whole truth and nothing but the truth......essentially all valid points what you're espousing is buyer beware which is totally valid.....a fool and his money etc. etc. I made a mistake no problem with that admission, just wondering if that means I send the money and take my punishment which your saying don't do - thanks My story is perhaps a familiar one, finding an auction with less than 5mins left and little time to do proper fact checking and the lure of the 'deal' caught me....

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02-04-2004, 02:37 PM

Posted By: Jeff LichtmanLeon, for what it's worth, the cutoff period to leave a neg feedback is 90 days and not 60. And I agree with scott that I would do my damndest not to pay for something that was misrepresented. Finally, to the first poster in this thread, you have to have rocks in your head to buy a "graded" card from an unknown grading company--unless you're paying small dollars for the card...

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02-04-2004, 02:52 PM

Posted By: icecanuckNot rocks in the head just some ignorance to the world of card grading and the mistaken belief that no card grading company would grade doctored cards ? Guess these guys won't be around long. Anyway, I'm learning quickly.....and taking my lumps

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02-04-2004, 02:54 PM

Posted By: Jeff LichtmanIce, sadly you just need to assume that every ebay seller may try to rip you off at ever instant. Sad, but true. I've been there myself and learned the hard way...

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02-04-2004, 05:33 PM

Posted By: Scott PWhy do you think they are in those unknown company holders? No doubt in my mind they are trimmed or altered in some way. Do you think the seller is so stupid not to use a real company for a card that would grade a 9 knowing they go for 10x as much? You will not make big bucks like you are thinking this way. "For everyone who wants to buy something for nothing, there's someone who will sell you nothing for something"

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02-04-2004, 07:00 PM

Posted By: AnonymousHey Jeff, thanks, I guess that's the new philosophy that I'll have to go by.....

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02-04-2004, 07:06 PM

Posted By: ice canuck"You will not make big bucks like you are thinking this way." Wasn't looking to make big bucks just build a reasonably nice legit collection. Caveat emptor is the lesson learned here today.

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02-04-2004, 07:36 PM

Posted By: HankronFrom a practical standpoint, if the card is genuine but simply overgraded, even by a lot, that's not such an outrageous price for one of Mantle's nicest cards.

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02-04-2004, 08:10 PM

Posted By: HankronCard collectors should find it desirable to buy from California sellers. Not only is it to against state law to knowingly sell altered items where the alterations are not detailed, but the ignorant seller is legally bound to take the item back if it misrepresented (It is perfectly fine to sell altered items if you detail the alterations). And I'm quite sure that the Sacramento legislature doesn't care one bit what PGS or PRO has to say about it.

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02-04-2004, 08:32 PM

Posted By: HankronI do recommend that interested collectors refer to the specific statues and not rely on my few sentence post. In particular, the buyer has a specific, though reasonable, time frame in which to return an item (If you hold it too long, tough luck). Also, some of the unmention specifics apply to art, memorabilia and autographs of at least a minimum sell value (I'm pretty sure a $1,000+ Mickey Mantle is well over the minumum). Not only in California but elsewhere, I beleive collectors should learn what they can practically do when problems arrise and to help prevent tricky situations in the first place. When there is a tricky situation (like this Mantle), I see no problem with telling the seller of his or her legal obligations, and see how he or she responds.

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02-05-2004, 06:48 AM

Posted By: runscott"Drunk, trimmed and altered is no way to go through life."

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02-12-2004, 02:23 PM

Posted By: AnonymousIn case anyone was interested in hearing how this little saga ended. The seller was very reasonable when I told him a had reservations about the card. He assured me that it would be gradeable by PSA but agreed to not sell me the card if I didn't want it. So I passed, he contacted ebay saying that we decided to not complete the transaction and they are going to credit him for the fees. All in all it seems to have worked out OK for both parties - curious to see if it gets relisted.......

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02-12-2004, 03:01 PM

Posted By: Aaron M.Good to hear it worked out for you. That was probably the best outcome you could have hoped for. For the future, some of the biggest scams on E-Bay are: 1. Trimmed or altered cards being sold as "slabbed" graded cards by shyster grading services. (If it's not PSA, SGC, BVG or GAI then pass. PRO is usually the biggest culprit.) 2. Magazine cut-outs being sold as graded collectibles. These are literally pages from vintage magazines that have been cut up and put into a make-shift NASA graded "slab" with the fraudulent attempt from the seller to pass them off as some sort of card/collectible. They are, of course, worthless. 3. Outright reprints being sold as vaguely described reprints/originals. These are usually in the form of "estate finds" where the seller claims to not collect cards and doesn't know exactly if they are originals or not. Another one is claiming that a card is being sold "as a reprint" because it is not graded, even though the seller knows full well the card is a reprint. There are usually enough greedy suckers out there who think that they're going to get a steal to drive the price up. 4. Lastly, if the seller is having a "private" auction or has "private" feedback where the identity of those he is transacting with are hidden, it's because he has something to hide and is afraid you will be warned by others that what he is selling is fraudulent. Never buy the "protecting the identity of the buyers" explanation. It's for their own protection to prevent people from interfering with the fraud they are committing. Just some pointers. Good luck in the future.

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02-12-2004, 03:11 PM

Posted By: Aaron M.The seller, in your instance, was probably inclined to not bring attention to his sales because his sales history on E-Bay were so clear cut. Above in this thread a poster linked to two of his transaction for a Mickey Mantle card. In the earlier transaction he states openly and clearly in his description that the cards he was selling were rejected by PSA as trimmed or otherwise altered. Obviously unhappy with the prices he was getting for being honest, he had the trimmed cards graded by PRO and then offered them up again with not a mention of the card's having been trimmed or rejected by PSA as such. Instant better sales price via fraud for him. A worthless card for the unfortunate buyer. So don't think the seller was doing you a favor by agreeing to void the transaction. You had more leverage than you think. (You could have reported him to E-Bay or contacted other winners of his auctions and advised them on what exactly they had purchased.)

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02-12-2004, 06:50 PM

Posted By: runscottThis guy is a thief, pure and simple - he receives 0 credits for trying to keep his ass out of the frying pan in your case. Remember - for every 10 of these he sells, he only has to get a couple of novices to complete their purchases and he still makes out like a bandit. It's no sweat for him to be nice to you - you then go out and tell everyone what a saint he is, as opposed to turning him in for stealing, which is what he deserves.

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05-01-2004, 01:17 PM

Posted By: NitroEliteI was actually the high bidder of the 1952 Topps Mickey Mantle #311 for $8k. I actually got the seller on the phone and he agreed to meet me in person and sell the card. I actually wanted to do paypal (credit card protection just in case it's a fraud) but his paypal account didn't work (the first warning flag). But in any case, the seller reassured me that the card was indeed authentic and that one of his past feedbcks is positive for another Mickey Mantle 1952 card for $9k. (possibly another flag) But supposedly, I offered to meet the seller in person and inspect the card personally and up close. And if the card was in fact genuine and legit, then I would pay the seller a cashier's check. Now, I'm very glad that I came across this post and this forum. What would you guys recommend? I have a good feeling that the card is in fact real and genuine, but the concern for me is what the rest of you brought up - the possibility of the card being trimmed or altered. Is there a good way to determine that this has happened or not? Is trimming definitely noticeable and detectable to the naked eye (I've never seen a professional trim job on a card)? I also left the seller a voicemail to check his schedule to see when he's availble to meet up, so when he calls back, I will also ask him up front if he is aware of anything trimming or altering of the card, or if the card can be regraded by PSA. I'm also very wary of the "My grandfather gave me his card collection" story. Any thoughts and comments are much appreciated. -Roger

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05-01-2004, 08:28 PM

Posted By: Aaron M.Well, like the poster who originally started this thread, it's unfortunately too late to do what you should have done: not bid. Unless $8,000 to you is like $8 to me and the financial loss is inconsequential, then you have fallen for one of the most common scams on E-Bay. 1952 Topps Mantle's are reprinted (with increasing quality) in astronomical numbers and then sold as original or "I have no reason to believe it's not original" condition on E-Bay to a novice sucker or experienced collector whose quest for a bargain has clouded his judgment. I mean, just ask yourself one basic question: with a card that is worth thousands of dollars, why would this seller not spend the relatively nominal amount and have it graded and authenticated by PAS (or the like) prior to selling it when doing so would increase his sales price by thousands (or tens of thousands) of dollars? If you've read this thread, then you already know the answer. Basically, if you had been determined to bid on the card prior to its end, you could have contacted the seller and asked him if he would be willing to make the sale contingent on the card being authenticated by PSA. He would have come up with some cockamamie reason why he couldn't and that big of a red flag might have dissuaded you from bidding. You have somehow bid $8,000 on a commonly reprinted card without doing so, so it's Plan B: Forget about meeting him in person. Just offer to cover the cost of having the card graded by PSA. If he receives the card back from PSA graded and authenticated, then you complete the transaction. No problem. If it doesn't, then you both walk away and neither leaves negative feedback. When he declines this offer for one reason or another, then do NOT send the money! Say you have serious reservations about the card's authenticity and are voiding the sale and agree to not leave negative feedback. If he leaves you negative feedback, again, it's lesson learned. But do not, under any circumstances pay for that card unless it comes to you slabbed by PSA, SGC, GAI or even BVG. Good luck and let us know how it goes.

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05-01-2004, 08:50 PM

Posted By: hankronThe card is not Mint. If a 1952 Topps Mantle is genuinely mint and graded, it will be in a PSA, SGC or similar holder. I don't care what justifications the seller may give (great service, close to home, Joe Orlando refused to pet his dog), no seller is going to throw away thousands of dollars of money to get a genuinely mint 1952 Topps Mantle graded by PGS. Simply ask the seller to explain to you why he didn't get this card graded by PSA, knowing that a PSA 9 or 10 would sell for thousands and thousands of dollars more.

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05-01-2004, 09:27 PM

Posted By: hankronI should add that once a seller lies significantly to the buyer about grade, authenticity, trimming, etc., the buyer is no longer under obligation to buy the item. Especially when it involves an expensive item. And yes, a seller can lie by omission. So if he gives a pile of b.s. about why he got the card graded by PGS (and he will), you should feel no remorse about aborting the deal.

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05-02-2004, 12:42 AM

Posted By: warshawlawdon't even look back. an obvious scam as a real Mantle in a condition worthy of the label would sell slabbed for $50,000 or more. No one leaves that much on the table.

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05-02-2004, 11:17 AM

Posted By: NitroEliteThanks so much everyone for your input and feedback. I had a feeling that it was too good to be true but hoping that it wasn't (because of the 5th party grading). I'm so glad that such a helpful forum like this one exists and I thank all of you guys for helping me in NOT losing $8,000.00 on this card. The seller won't even contact me now. He just doesn't pick up his phone or he ignores my calls and emails. Go figure, huh? Hehe I knew PSA, SGC, and BGS reject cards that are not authentic, cards that have been altered in any manner, and mark cards that are of course reprints (they will mark it as a reprint), HOWEVER, I did not know until I came here that other aftermarket grading companies will grade them or possibly let those cards slide through their system. Wow! Thanks again everyone!