Last night's "debate" .....some interesting observations. [Archive]

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04-23-2004, 05:39 PM

Posted By: MW  To all: I think some misperceptions have evolved from Greg's attack on me last night and I'd like to further clarify some things: Any dealer who does not have knowledge of professional restoration techniques is doing a grave disservice to his or her customers. Some dealers (I won't mention any names here), like to perform these alterations themselves. Sometimes these dealer experiments end up in grading companys' holders. Other dealers such as myself, submit small quantities of cards to restoration experts. As I mentioned on the Network54 forum, I have submitted various cards (many of limited value) to a restoration expert on the East Coast. Thus far, I have yet to list any of these cards for sale or offer them in an auction (i.e., eBay). All of the altered cards I have obtained from Dick Towle that I listed for sale were not sent to him by me. Someone else had the restoration work done and Mr. Towle merely contacted me and offered me the cards. When I listed them on eBay, I clearly indicated that they had been restored by Dick Towle -- there was nothing deceptive about it. I even posted information about this on a <a href="http://boards.collectors-society.com/showflat.php?Cat=&Number=99991&page=9&view=collapsed&sb=5&o=&fpart=1">previous SGC forum thread</a> and discussed the altered state of one of the restored cards I listed on eBay (the 1952 Lansford). It is clear that I have nothing to hide. One thing I find humorous is that a few collectors of limited knowledge and experience like to take "shots" at me because I have sent some cards to a restoration expert. What these detractors fail to mention, however, is that I've never submitted any of these cards to a grading company. Instead, I keep them in a permanent file and have used them to increase my knowledge and awareness of altered cards. It is precisely BECAUSE of this reason that customers can be assured that none of the cards I sell have been altered or tampered with. Since this is the real world, it should probably be known that many of the major dealers in this hobby (especially those affiliated with a particular grading company) regularly send cards to restoration experts. One restoration expert who will remain nameless for now, resides on the West Coast and receives a lionshare of these dealers' business. Further, many well-known auction houses regularly list cards in their auctions that have been altered or have sent cards to restoration companies themselves. A good example of this is two different T206 Honus Wagners that have been offered for sale by Mastro auctions. In one of these cases, Mastro not only listed the card in its restored state, but later relisted it in another auction after the restoration had been removed. The irony of the entire situation is that I'm the only major dealer in the hobby who has the moral fortitude and confidence to write on a public forum that I have sent cards to a restoration company. Restoration is a topic that EVERY collector should be aware of and I encourage collectors to do the same thing as me. Why? Because it is only by examining professional restoration work that one can be familiar with it and avoid it when buying and selling graded cards. That being said, if someone across the street would like to accuse me of submitting altered cards for grading, that's fine. It only proves how truly ignorant they are. The truth is that there are very few dealers in this hobby who still sell large quantities of high grade raw vintage cards and I'm one of them. And in the vast majority of cases these cards get sent by customers straight to grading companies for encapsulation. My record in selling high-graded unaltered raw vintage cards is unmatched in the hobby. Off the top of my head, I cannot think of a single customer who has ever been disappointed upon submitting these raw cards for grading. And yes, in some cases we're talking many thousands of dollars per card. Another important factor to consider is the source of the material I offer for sale. I don't think it's any secret that I've purchased some of the hobby's largest and most impressive collections over the past decade. Some of these purchases have been well-document on the Internet and in the Hobby Press. Whenever they're available, I offer both significant star cards AND commons from each of these noteworthy hobby finds. Can the same be said for other well known dealers? Do they have large quantities of NM/MT and Mint condition commons that match the NM/MT and Mint condition 1933 Goudeys or T206 Hall of Fame cards they offer in auctions on a regular basis? Some may but others simply do not. In my opinion, this is very telling. All things considered, I think Dick Towle does some very good work on some types of cards. But thus far, I wouldn't say that ANY of his work is good enough to get past SGC graders. How do I know this? Because I have shared some of the information directly with SGC graders so that they're aware of what is out there. Again, this is something that the disaffected minions across the street don't realize. Something else they probably don't understand is that some major grading companies keep examples of altered cards on hand to assist them in grading and analyzing vintage sports cards. Basically, they do the same as I do. The irony of the whole situation is that some of the work that Dick Towle does, in my opinion, is professional enough so that it would not be detected by PSA graders. Since I no longer submit to PSA, I cannot say this is the case based on my own experience. However, I HAVE seen some of Mr. Towle's work in PSA holders and have encountered some of Mr. Towle's work being offered for sale by some dealers. Obviously, these were cards that were submitted by many of our beloved and well-known clan of PSA dealers. There is no question that submitting cards to a restoration expert has increased my hobby knowledge and enabled me to better spot restored cards. To suggest that I submit some of these cards to SGC or to anyone else is complete nonsense. Those who have actually done business with me or who know me, know that this is the truth. I unconditionally guarantee the material that I sell in ANY grading company's holder. Why? Because when I sell a card you not only have a professional opinion from a grading company backing it up, but you have MY expertise behind it as well. How many other dealers offer this same guarantee? Answer: none that I'm aware of. Detractors may post whatever they like, but I think some very valuable information evolved from last night's debate. As many forum members are very well aware, I've never been one to hide or obscure the truth. I think that many of the things that were posted needed to be brought out into the open so that collectors can make better hobby decisions and better educate themselves when buying and selling sports cards. Thanks for reading.

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04-23-2004, 08:46 PM

Posted By: E. Angyalsome before and after shots to educate those of us so that we can keep our eyes open for restoration. Just a thought. Eric

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04-23-2004, 09:12 PM

Posted By: MWEric, A very good request. I currently have two 1952 Topps Mickey Mantles that are being restored. Both had significant defects. When they are returned, I'll post before and after pictures along with a detailed analysis of the restoration that was done. It should be interesting.

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04-23-2004, 09:34 PM

Posted By: MWAnother idea I think would be interesting would be for the members of this forum to collectively submit a "damaged" or problematic vintage sports card (and/or photograph) to another professional restoration service and then document the results. Although I have never done business with this organization, another forum member was once considering getting some restoration work done by the Chicago Conservation Center -- <a href="http://www.chicagoconservation.com/home.html" target=_new>http://www.chicagoconservation.com/home.html</a>. I know that one of the major auction houses has employed their services with very good results and I think engaging in such an experiment would add some very useful knowledge about restoration to this forum. After the restoration work is done, the card could be circulated to various forum members who could them post their findings/observations. What do others think?

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04-24-2004, 12:07 AM

Posted By: BCDFor the after but they do not need to be restored to be encapsulated by them.............just altered!

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04-24-2004, 01:12 AM

Posted By: MWInteresting article -- <a href="http://64.233.161.104/search?q=cache:Sioj2RFnJB8J:www.baseball-cards.com/news/1223.html+%22Gone+with+the+Stain%22&hl=en&ie=UTF-8" target=_new>http://64.233.161.104/search?q=cache:Sioj2RFnJB8J:www.baseball-cards.com/news/1223.html+%22Gone+with+the+Stain%22&hl=en&ie=UTF-8</a> For those who wish to learn more about card restoration, I encourage them to read this article from Baseball-cards.com (I believe it was also published by Krause but I'm not sure....can someone verify this?) Article text: Most similar companies are gone with the wind, but Gone With The Stain is celebrating its five-year anniversary by continuing to remove stains from trading cards. And with the boom in card grading, Dick Towle's Pittsford, N.Y.-based business is heavily involved in pre-grading preparation. Towle said he has more than 30 dealers who send him cards at least occasionally. "I was the busiest this spring than ever. It has tailed off to about 50 cards a month, but will pick up once show season begins," Towle said. "I recently (cleaned) a complete 1915 Crackerjack set that was glued into the album. It was sold for $65,000, they graded the cards post-stain and netted more than $108,000 after selling." [My note: the cards were sold in PSA holders by Sportscards Plus] He is often asked to break cards out of holders, remove stains and return them, and the owner will have them re-submitted. "I've probably busted out 700-800 cards over the last two years, maybe 1,000 over the past five years," he said [My note: guess which company's holders we're talking about here?] Towle's formula can remove stains caused by gum, caramel, tobacco and some inks, along with tape and some glues. "I've had stains of chocolate, coffee, I've had stains that I don't know what they are, but our solvent can tackle these stains," Towle said. The most controversial service that Towle provides is removal of creases, which many hobbyists believe equates to doctoring. "I agitate the paper, raising the paper," Towle said. "The paper raises up and sits back down. Those fine little micro-wrinkles shouldn't be there, because they mean there wasn't a complete bonding from the front to the back of a card." Krause Publications' stance is that Towle's process of removing tape and stains is acceptable, but removing creases is not. "Creases are part of the printing process, or are a sign of wear," said senior price guide analyst Bob Lemke. Towle's pricing structure starts at $8-$10 for common cards with simple stains, but the most typical rate is $30/card. Water stains are difficult to remove and cost $75. Towle's point in attempting to publicize his fifth anniversary is that he wants collectors to be aware that dealers are making big bucks by buying stained cards, getting them cleaned and resubmitting them for grading. He's not worried about dealers complaining that he's trying to cut them out of the picture. "What are they going to do? Not send the cards to me?" he said. "They're not going to cut their own throats." My comments: And so I ask everyone -- does it seem important for one to be familiar with what certain types of restoration work look like when buying and selling vintage cards....particularly those in PSA holders? I sure think so and I see nothing wrong with submitting cards to a restoration service expressly for this purpose. In fact, I would call it an absolutely NECESSITY in today's hobby climate. Is this an unpopular view? To some who submit altered cards to major grading services such as PSA, absolutely. They certainly don't want the truth to be known. Without question, there are many dealers that are part of PSA's "good ol' boy" network and many PSA collectors who will forever vilify me for posts like this one, but I don't really care. They're complete dumbasses (especially some of the collectors on the CU forum) and they wouldn't know an altered card if their collections were filled with them.

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04-24-2004, 02:21 AM

Posted By: MWLet me specify exactly which CU forum members/PSA collectors I mean when I write "complete dumbasses" -- toppsgun, koby, schr1st, CON40, and Mantlefan. Thank you.

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04-24-2004, 06:07 AM

Posted By: halleygatorLooking forward to some before and after photos so that I can learn some things!

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04-24-2004, 08:19 AM

Posted By: Richard DwyerI feel it's deceptive to do that. Of course, this is only my opinion. How can you call the card authentic anymore after restoration? I'm only posting to see if anyone else agrees with me. When you clean coins, the coins lose value. The same with baseball cards.

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04-24-2004, 10:00 AM

Posted By: Sean_CI'm not sure if I should feel honored or insulted for being lumped in with the rest of the Mike's cast of characters. I guess Mike didn't like my link over "across the street". Oh well.

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04-24-2004, 10:04 AM

Posted By: jay behrensRestoring/cleaning coins and furniture is a no-no as far as value goes for those items, but with art and movie posters, there is effect on value, and most likely an increase in value if cleaned or restored. I am sure there are many other examples. It just depends on the standards for that area collectible. Card collecting seems to be in a state of flux as to where it is going to eventually end up. Jay

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04-24-2004, 11:40 AM

Posted By: warshawlaw"Restoration" of a damaged item commonly is understood to imply rebuilding it. That is a "no no" as far as I am concerned if the card is to be deemed authentic. "Removal" is the term used to describe what Towle does. As long as the card is not damaged by the process, I don't see what problem a removal causes; you are subtracting something that was not meant to be there in the first place. Finally, in terms of crease removal, I have done extensive work with it and it is much easier than you think and if done right, totally undetectable. Here is how you do it: Get a clean china or glass bowl and some distilled water. Fill the bowl partway with water. Put in the card and let it soak until it softens. Typically, this takes no more than a few minutes. If the card has a typical layer of varnish on the front (the stuff that makes card fronts look glossy), expect the card to curl alarmingly because the fibers on the gloss side don't move like the rest of the card. Don't panic, just let the water seep in. The card will relax some, actually. Once the card is sufficiently moist, remove it carefully from the water. NEVER rub or abrade it; the card is easily damaged. Have about a dozen sheets of white paper ready to go, folded in half. Place the card inside a sheet or two and put it on a hard, smooth, dry, clean surface. GENTLY press down on the card to flatten it. Hold for a minute or two, then carefully remove the card from the paper and switch it to another sheet. Repeat until the card is no longer actively dripping water. Take the card and put it inside two or three folded sheets of paper, then place the sheets inside a thick hardcover book. Close the book and lay the book down flat on a surface. Stack 1.5'-2' of additional books on it and let it sit. Check it periodically and change the paper until you are getting perfectly dry paper for a full day. At that point, the card is done. I like to give it a couple of hours to breathe before I put it into a plastic sleeve, to be absolutely sure it is dry. The main error most people make in crease removal is choosing the wrong card to do it. It requires a careful assessment of the card first. A good candidate for a crease removal is a card where the crease does not break the surface of the card and has not had any wear on the crease. Hairline back creases on otherwise near mint cards are the best candidates. If the card has lost color or taken wear on the crease and you remove it, you will have a line of wear where the crease was and the boost in grade will be minimal. Removal is another thing. I've never used solvents to remove stains; I have no doubt that they work. I have removed extraneous materials via a special eraser called an "Art Gum" eraser. Art Gum erasers were developed for artists to use. Most erasers rip off layers of paper to accomplish their removal, which damaged the paper. Art Gum erasers remove virtually no paper. The rubber they are made of grabs pigment or extra materials and crumbles. I've cleaned many cards of wax stains, product stains and light pencil writing with an Art Gum. Again, if the card is a good candidate and the technique is good, a removal like this is impossible to detect. Removals are performed all the time on paper artworks without any loss of value. Treating cards otherwise is silly and is no more than the product of marketing efforts by the grading services. We have never had an honest discussion of the subject in the Hobby--it has simply been taken for granted that any alteration made to a card is "bad" unless the alteration was "natural", which is why you get idiotic distinctions like slabbing a card with a punch hole as "poor" but refusing to slab a trimmed card as "poor". Both are intentionally altered cards; the reason the trimmed card is treated differently is that ten years ago the marketers behind the slabbing services glommed on to trimming (which they pejoratively labeled "doctoring") as the means to scare the public into using their services. Every alteration to a card was then lumped into the same category with no critical thought or debate, regardless of what it really meant to the card. Like so many other things in public discourse (like labeling the reduction of injured workers' benefits "workers comp reform" as governor terminator just did out here, labeling the stripping of the right to sue for injuries as "tort reform", or labeling anti-abortion movement as the "right to life" movement), once the langage is co-opted by the marketers in charge of pushing a point, there is no intelligent discussion.

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04-24-2004, 02:09 PM

Posted By: hankronA local movie poster expoert told me this: Say a nice old movie poster is restored from GdVg to Mint. The restored poster is worth more than the GdVg but less than than unrestored Mint. This difference between a T206 and movie posters is that a movie poster is, say, 3x2 feet, on thin and delicate paper, and typically intended to be display on a wall for public viewing (sometimes while people are snacking or dining). In some cases, a movie poster has to be repaired/backed or it will literally fall apart if displayed. Try framing for your living room wall a 3x2 foot sheet of tissue paper. Important to note: This mentioned movies poster expert bought, sold and owned many restored posters and, obviously, did not have a problem with movie posters being restored. However, even he said that a seller had to clearly state that a poster was restored (and the extent of the restoration) when selling.

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04-24-2004, 05:12 PM

Posted By: MWDavid & Adam, Some great points. I don't think there's any question that some grading companies (I'm thinking of one in particular) has cultivated a rather limited and sheltered sports card philosophy among some small-minded collectors that "altered" is a four letter word. And so what happens? I point out that I've sent cards to Dick Towle (none of which are graded or have been offered for sale) and the PSA minions label me as a liar and a cheat. I find this genuinely amusing. How would a mature individual or someone of even average intelligence look at the use of a restoration expert? Think about the art world or any of the expansive collectible hobbies. Whether we're talking about professionally restored paintings, classic automobiles, antique furniture, movie posters or vintage photographs, an advanced working knowledge of restoration (both minor and major alterations) is ABSOLUTELY ESSENTIAL when one is buying or selling on a regular basis. Would a major auction house that employs a restoration expert to thoroughly examine a painting from one of the great Renaissance masters be labeled as a liar or a cheat? Do we put MORE trust in antique salesmen when they know NOTHING about restoration and only sell items "as is"? Adam makes an astute observation when he explains that all alterations, whether restoration or removal, are lumped into one very nonspecific and often misleading category. Quite simply put, this is a way for grading companies to scare the public into using their services. Adam hits the nail squarely on the head. Let's not be small or simple minded like the ignorant group of PSA collectors across the street who base their buying decisions on the number on the top of the holder and who don't know the first thing about "restoration" because they've been taught by the PSA gods that it just isn't allowed. Let's make an effort to educate ourselves -- just like everyone has done in every other major collectibles market.

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04-24-2004, 05:32 PM

Posted By: Richard DwyerI feel it's dishonest to not say anything at all about restoration. The Baseball card industry already has major problems with grading to begin with. Now buyers will have to worry about whether or not the item has been restored now also. As long as the seller in honest, I don't have a problem. But if I bought something and found out later that it was restored, I would be very disappointed.

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04-24-2004, 05:57 PM

Posted By: hankronAll forms of restoration CAN be identified, including where chemicals or water has been applied to the surface, but not for free or for $5 after mail in rebate. Typically, it will be in criminal or civil cases where a proper examination is requested.

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04-24-2004, 07:41 PM

Posted By: Jimmy Scott Elkinsto a major auction house, it had a stain on the reverse (as seen in Lipset's Encyclopedia). The President of the company called and asked me if it was OK for them to have the stain removed. After a few seconds of thought, I said OK (because I was getting out of the Hobby and knew the card would bring more money in EX than in GD). Anyway, if I hadn't known the stain was once there, I would have never guessed the card ever had a stain after viewing the "after" picture in the catalog. Personally, my opinion is: "removal of something not originally on the card is not taboo". When one starts adding colors, corners (paper), etc.; that is a "no-no".

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04-25-2004, 11:43 AM

Posted By: TBobMW- Could you provide the website link to Dick Towle/ Gone With the Stain?

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04-25-2004, 01:49 PM

Posted By: steveTo avoid any confusion in future threads... April 24 2004, 4:21 AM MW writes: Let me specify exactly which CU forum members/PSA collectors I mean when I write "complete dumbasses" -- toppsgun, koby, schr1st, CON40, and Mantlefan. Thank you. what does one need to do in order to attain that status? disagree with you mike? or can anyone join?

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04-25-2004, 02:07 PM

Posted By: will watsonMike, i would have to agree on your assessment of Bow (toppsgun and his alter ego, GeorgePatton). as for Koby, i seriously doubt he is uniship. there are some key differences in their writing styles. the other posters you listed are good guys, from what i've seen.

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04-25-2004, 03:57 PM

Posted By: Sean_CMW writes: "Any dealer who does not have knowledge of professional restoration techniques is doing a grave disservice to his or her customers. Some dealers (I won't mention any names here), like to perform these alterations themselves. Sometimes these dealer experiments end up in grading companys' holders. Other dealers such as myself, submit small quantities of cards to restoration experts. As I mentioned on the Network54 forum, I have submitted various cards (many of limited value) to a restoration expert on the East Coast. Thus far, I have yet to list any of these cards for sale or offer them in an auction (i.e., eBay). All of the altered cards I have obtained from Dick Towle that I listed for sale were not sent to him by me. Someone else had the restoration work done and Mr. Towle merely contacted me and offered me the cards. When I listed them on eBay, I clearly indicated that they had been restored by Dick Towle -- there was nothing deceptive about it. I even posted information about this on a previous SGC forum thread and discussed the altered state of one of the restored cards I listed on eBay (the 1952 Lansford). It is clear that I have nothing to hide." Ok, so the altered cards were not the ones you submitted, but rather other cards that Mr. Towle offered you. Were you selling these cards for him on commission? Or were they extras that he happened to have lying around? Interesting reading: <a href="http://www.bullyonline.org/workbully/serial.htm" target=_new><a href="<a href="http://www.bullyonline.org/workbully/serial.htm</a" target=_new>http://www.bullyonline.org/workbully/serial.htm</a</a>" target=_new><a href="http://www.bullyonline.org/workbully/serial.htm</a" target=_new>http://www.bullyonline.org/workbully/serial.htm</a</a>>

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04-25-2004, 04:25 PM

Posted By: Eric PughIn response to MW's accusation that I am "Koby" - I am NOT. MW again dishing out lies for no reason. My name is Eric Pugh, I live in Jupiter, FL, and I have only used one username on all message boards - UNISHIP. You can also check out my ebay ID which is UNISHIP as well to see my history. Sorry to have to chime in on this - but I did want to clear up any suspicions or doubts. I don't have any idea who "koby" is. Thanks for listening.

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04-25-2004, 05:28 PM

Posted By: grilloj39MW...I think you should lighten up a little on the PSA guys. Most of the people over there are just people like you and me. Some are extremely passionate about the grading company they choose. Although I feel there are better choices then PSA, I don't think a continual PSA-bashing, or PSA-board-forum member-bashing on my part is going to change anyone's mind. Your "PC" with BOTN the other night only fueled the accusations, wisecracks, etc., against you on that board.

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04-25-2004, 05:57 PM

Posted By: MW"Ok, so the altered cards were not the ones you submitted, but rather other cards that Mr. Towle offered you. Were you selling these cards for him on commission? Or were they extras that he happened to have lying around?" Sean, Correct. I have never sent cards to Mr. Towle and then offered them for sale. As I mentioned previously, I have only spoken with him a few times so I do not know where these cards came from. He sold the cards to me outright. There was no consignment. Eric/Uniship, You have trolled me on the CU forums for several years now writing various things about me that you know are not true. For this reason, I do not consider you to be a credible source of information.

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04-25-2004, 06:19 PM

Posted By: Sean_CMW writes: "Sean, Correct. I have never sent cards to Mr. Towle and then offered them for sale. As I mentioned previously, I have only spoken with him a few times so I do not know where these cards came from. He sold the cards to me outright. There was no consignment." If you bought them knowing they were altered, why sell them at all? Why not keep them with the other ones for future reference? Why put them back into circulation? Only bad things can happen when altered cards are released back into the marketplace; eventually someone will be tricked into buying them thinking they are unaltered originals. On the couple of occasions I've purchased cards that I've detected to be altered (recolored corners, trimmed, etc.), I cut them up and throw them away. Reselling altered cards, even when advertised as such, is no better than selling PRO graded cards or any of the "reprint" Jordan, Orr, etc. rookies: you are helping people rip others off, and to think otherwise is folly. For someone who claims to have "Moral Fortitude", selling altered cards under any circumstance would make me question what your definition of "morals" is. Interesting reading: <a href="http://www.bullyonline.org/workbully/serial.htm" target=_new>http://www.bullyonline.org/workbully/serial.htm</a>

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04-25-2004, 06:52 PM

Posted By: Bill CornellThis is the end of this CU Forum members vs. MW thread. The subject was restoration, but that has been lost here to name calling. Fight the battle on PSA's turf, if you want, but don't do it here. I appreciate the new users who came here and identified themselves when posting. Bill