1911 Obak backs---Is this something new? [Archive]

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04-22-2004, 04:20 PM

Posted By: Adam J. BaxterHi all, Most who collect T212's know about the framed and unframed back border designs on 1909's and the many different back slogans on 1910's. It has been documented that all 1911 backs are the same in design save for the different stats and player bios. I was looking at a group of 7 1911 Obaks that I received in the mail today and noticed something about the backs that I hadn't noticed before. 5 of the 7 have a thick line with a leaf-like design in the middle that is located just above the OBAK name and under the player stats. I checked the other 25 1911's already in my collection and found 2 more. Aside from the 7 with the design, all the others simply have a blank space between the Obak name and the player info. The size of the player bio/stats seems to have no bearing as to whether or not there will be a design. I checked all the Obak articles in VCBC by Jeff Obermeyer and Mark MaCrae and Lipset's encyclopedia and found no mention of the different 1911 back. It would appear that there are in fact 2 different back designs for 1911 Obaks. I can't really say yet whether or not the design back is more scarce then the non-design back. Has anyone one else noticed the different back? Has anyone seen a write-up on the two different backs?

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04-22-2004, 04:25 PM

Posted By: Adam J. BaxterThe players that I found in my collection WITH the design are: Barry, Criger, Gordon, Roche, Schmutz, Thompson, and Ward. The Library of Congress webpage shows both back examples in the gallery section for 1911 Obaks.

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04-22-2004, 05:42 PM

Posted By: Tim NewcombIt's exactly what this board should be for. I happen to have a full set of 1911 Obak, so I counted them up and got 41 cards with this leaflike design on the backs. The number may be slightly higher as 3-4 of mine have serious back damage and I can't be positive about them. This includes all the names you mentioned, which suggests that it's not a back variation that exists on some copies and not others, but a back type that exists on all copies of some subjects. I'll type out a complete list of the subjects that have the design when I have a little time. In the meantime, does anyone else have info to add about this fun discovery? Tim

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04-22-2004, 08:40 PM

Posted By: brian pIt indeed is good to have a pair of fresh eyes examine vintage cards and being on the lookout for variations on the theme. I have noted the bar design in the past, but I think it hovered at the subconscious level. I have sent my listing to Adam (My examples of the cards he mentioned also have the bar designs)--I advise any other advanced collectors do so as well. It's fun to discover new aspects about the cards we love. Now for what I believe. I think that the bar w/leaf design was used as a space filler on cards which the bio writers just ran out of blab gas--the 1911 Obak write-ups are basically space fillers themselves, for example, a card will use the word 'clever' twice, and perhaps compliment the player on their ability to tag runners or catch foul balls. It would be interesting to find out if there are any differences in design for a specific player. Brian

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04-22-2004, 09:00 PM

Posted By: Patrick McMenemyI just checked my four catchers in T212 Obaks. You can add Spencer Seattle N.W.L. to the players that can have the "tassle" emblem back design. Patrick

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04-23-2004, 12:16 AM

Posted By: Patrick McMenemyWhile we are on the subject of 1911 backs, I am sure of that most of you also see a significant range in font sizes used on the back of these cards. Note the scans of the two different backs and you also can see the big difference in font size. I have included scans of both back styles. Tassle Back <img src="http://www.network54.com/Realm/tmp/1082700838.JPG"> More Common 1911 Obak Back <img src="http://www.network54.com/Realm/tmp/1082700912.JPG">

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04-23-2004, 12:24 AM

Posted By: brian pThanks for the scans Patrick--it will allow the non-Obak collectors out there see what the heck we have been talking about. It is also true that there a few different font sizes seen--once again this seems to related to how much fluff the writer could muster about the player. Brian

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04-23-2004, 12:51 AM

Posted By: AdamBaxterAfter looking at my 1911's, Brian Parker's list (Thanks!), and the LOC website the checklist is currently at 40. The majority of the examples are NWL players at 23 with PCL players at 17. The players so far: PCL: Los Angeles: Criger, Howard Oakland: Christian, Knight, Miller, Pearce, Zacher Portland: Barry, Rodgers Sacramento: Danzig, Lalonge, Nourse, Thompson San Francisco: Zamlock Vernon: Raleigh, Sheehan, Stewart NWL: Portland: Bloomfield, Lamline, Mensor, Stovall Seattle: Butler, Leard, Skeels, Spencer Spokane: Bonner, Frisk, Hasty, Holm Tacoma: Annis, Gordon, Higgins, Schmutz Vancouver: Swain Victoria: Dashwood, Householder, Reddick, Roche, Starkel, Ward I suspect that Davis, Victoria NWL also has the bar w/ leaf design, but the only example I could find had significant damage so I don't know for sure. Unless an example is found of a player with the design and without, then it is not really a seperate type. I think Brian is right on the money when he said that the design was probably put there to fill empty space. It appears that any 1911 card with less then 1/4 inch of space on the back between the bio/stat info and the "O" in Obak will NOT have the design. But if the space measures 1/4 or more, then it probably will. The two truly borderline exceptions that I found were Million and Mitze. Both appear to have 1/4 inch of empty space on the back, but neither have the bar w/ leaf design. Several others seem to have also barely missed the cut. It's likely that the producers used more precise measurements then I did and that's why they don't sport the bar design. It is interesting that the two different styles have not been documented whether insignificant or not.

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04-23-2004, 01:02 AM

Posted By: brian pAdam I think has come upon the correct conclusion about this--thanks for wrapping it up in such a comprehensive fashion. My example of the Davis of Victoria NWL has this design, so I think the list might be complete at 41. Brian

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04-23-2004, 01:16 AM

Posted By: AdamBaxterIt's easy to get excited when you notice something with Obaks that you haven't before. Although most of the variations that exist in Obaks have been duly documented by collectors (Macrae, Obermeyer, Lipset, etc.)Most are overlooked by the hobby at large. Obak sets lack the star power and popularity of an issue such as T206 and that probably accounts for the lack of interest. One example is the framed/frameless back variation in the 1909 set. When Lipset wrote about this variation in his encyclopedia he felt that neither type seemed more scarce then the other. The current Standard Catalog also states that both seem equally available, yet I have seen at least 2 veteran collectors recently state that the frameless 1909's are scarcer then those with the framed backs. I have also encountered far fewer frameless examples in my online shopping over the last year. If the frameless examples are in fact tougher, why isn't that reflected in the guides and why is the hobby still using outdated info? I also wish that the Standard Catalog or Beckett had a breakdown of the 1910 back slogans and their levels of scarcity included with the listing of the set. Some back slogan examples are more difficult then others and if a collector hasn't read Jeff Obermeyer's article on Obak backs in VCBC or been to Oldcardboard.com then there's little chance that a collector can go beyond just a player set without running into some confusion.

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04-23-2004, 01:27 AM

Posted By: AdamBaxter....that I can do all this typing at 3 AM without collapsing from exhaustion. Man, what a collector will do for little pieces of colorful cardboard! <img src="/images/happy.gif" height=14 width=14>

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04-23-2004, 07:57 AM

Posted By: MIke PeichThanks to Patrick and Brian for an enlightening discussion of the back variation on 1911 Obaks. I want to add credence to Brian's conclusion about the use of the design to fill out space. One of my interests is printing history. Early twentieth century printers, unlike their counterparts in 2004, were more attuned to questions of aesthetics, like too much empty space, in relation to the text, on a printed surface. Too much space could create a distraction to the reader's eye, and printers employed visual tricks to keep the text looking balanced on the printed surface. If there was too much space, they would insert a rule, a decorative design, that would be subtle, but fill out the space in such a way that the reader would think nothing of it. If you look at the back of an Obak you'll see that the Obak advertising is in virtually the same place at the bottom of the card, with the player's bio above it. Similarly, the top of the bio always appears in the same spot, the same distance from the top of the card. If there was a short bio, and space appeared between the bio text and the Obak ad, a printer was trained to fill in that space so that it would not look unusual. All he (and they were mostly men) had to do was insert a decorative rule, the visual space disappeared, and textual harmony was restored to the printed surface. The fact that no one noticed the rules before Patrick's discovery is testimony to the success the printer achieved by putting in the rule to create balance, and not distract the reader. Because of Patrick's attentive eye, and late-night thinking, we'll all look at Obak backs much more carefully. Thanks, again, Patrick.

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04-23-2004, 07:59 AM

Posted By: Mike Peich...I meant to thank Adam for making this discovery. Mea culpa, Adam!

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04-23-2004, 09:48 AM

Posted By: Tim NewcombAs Brian says, Davis does have the design, so I can confirm all 41 that have been listed in this thread. Cool project, guys! Tim

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04-23-2004, 11:15 AM

Posted By: tbobSince many (most?) 1909 Obaks are handcut (as opposed to 1910 and 1911 which are not), does anyone know if SGC and GAI are grading them in this obvious condition? I have had 5 graded so far but all appear "non-hand cut."

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04-23-2004, 11:31 AM

Posted By: AdamBaxterI believe that both SGC and GAI do grade and encapsulate hand-cut W strip cards, so it would be fair to assume that they would do the same for 1909's. Of course this is providing that they aware that hand-cut examples are common for this issue. I have wondered if hand-cut examples for T212 go beyond just the 1909's? I picked up a 1910 of Scahrnweber that was sold as trimmed but has the appearance/shape of a hand-cut 1909.