advice

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Posted By: <b>Tim</b><p>Hi, been lurking, but this is my first post. I have been purchasing as many tobacco cards as I can afford over the last year or so. My funds are limited so i tend to buy many off condition cards. I recently bought a card on ebay and received it yesterday. The card was trimmed, I knew that, but i think it is a fake after receiving it. The front of the card feels funny and is very smooth. Because this is a card of a star player,I suggest funny business. I think the back is real but the front a fake. The card feels thicker than it should , the front of the card feels funny, and just seems wrong. I think the front is a copy glued onto a real back.The card is a T206, is this something that can be done? Is there a way to prove this? What do I say to the seller...<BR><BR>any advice is really appreciated! thanks!

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Posted By: <b>MW</b><p>Tim,<BR><BR>I think you're on the right track. T206 reprints, in addition to often possessing the wrong font styles, also exhibit the following problems:<BR><BR>1. A thicker stock than the originals<BR>2. A smooth, glossy surface<BR>3. Cropped inner images<BR><BR>Generally speaking, authentic T206s have a slightly irregular, somewhat porous surface and little or no gloss. They are also quite pliable or easy to bend...unlike the reprints which can often be somewhat more rigid in construction.<BR><BR>If you have a question on a particular card, post an image of it here and you'll receive some well-educated, expert vintage opinions and analysis.

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Posted By: <b>Lee Behrens</b><p>Hi Tim,<BR><BR>Welcome to the contributors club. Is it possible to put a scan up? I have had teh same experience buying a T206 waddell portrait, it had a waxy feeling to front, I returned out the postage but that isn't always bad. Also the seller does not always know that they are selling reprints and should be willing to give you a refund.<BR><BR>One other point, you mention that you collect off grade cards. There is nothing wrong with that, I personally collect along that lines and do just fine and very happy with my collection. You will probably find that the majority of the people that read this board arein the same boat. Yes, There obviously is some wealthy people among us that can afford high grade cards and coolect that way but I think you will find that the majority of the collectors are like you and me, buying the best card ppossible within your buget.<BR><BR>Happy Holidays All<BR><BR>Lee<BR>

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Posted By: <b>Hankron</b><p>For a 'refronted' cards, there are a variety of things to look at (some subjective), but the most common purely physical giveways, when compared to other cards in the issues, is difference in gloss and fluorescence under a black light. If your card has both a significantly different gloss and fluorescence than your other T206s, then there is something wrong with the card.<BR><BR>Though seemingly simple and inconsiquential, authentic gloss (or lack of gloss) is one of the most difficult things to duplicate.<BR><BR>A quick discussion of blacklights can be read at <a href="http://www.cycleback.com/baseballcards/2.html" target=_new>http://www.cycleback.com/baseballcards/2.html</a> A usefull blacklight can be inexpensive (often under $20) and can be bought on eBay. Brian Daniels might have one for sale, as well.

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Posted By: <b>Hankron</b><p>Another quick and simple physical thing to look at is to compare the opacity of your card to other T206s. Opacity is the 'see through effect' or 'how much light shines through' when an item is put up to a bright light, like a lamp or sunglight. Some cardstock will let no light through, some lots and most in between. If your card is significantly darker to the light than other T206s, that is a significant factor.<BR><BR>I do point out that this test may not be difinitive in your case. If your card is a case of a thin sheet of paper being affixed to the front, the opacity may not be changed much.<BR><BR>

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Posted By: <b>Hankron</b><p>Some altered error or variation cards (T206 Magie, 'Nodgrass') are 'glazed over'-- meaning, they have a clear substanced put over the front of the card, in part to help hide any deficiencies in the handywork. Gloss and blacklight comparison will quickly and simply identify this type of alteration.

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Posted By: <b>runscott</b><p>1) look at loads of ebay auction scans. You can be sure that cards being sold by reputable dealers (Mike Wheat, etc.) are real, so use those as your "benchmarks".<BR>2) once you feel "comfortable" that you know what a t206 should look like, buy a few "beater" commons on ebay from a reputable dealer,i.e: cards that there is no incentive to reprint.<BR>3) study them intensely - all you need is your eyeballs and a 10x.<BR><BR>end result: if you ever get a reprint, you'll know it. T206's are not brain surgery.

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Posted By: <b>runscott</b><p>I used the above-described technique to "learn" t206s. I've bought over a thousand t206's on ebay, and not one has been a reprint.

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Posted By: <b>Hankron</b><p>Scott, reminds me of the story of a man who had collected 1933-5 Goudeys for 20 years. He approached me because he had recently read about counterfeits and was worried that he might have some in his collection that he didn't know about. I said, "If you've been collecting Goudeys for 20 years, you'd know if you had counterfeits."

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Posted By: <b>runscott</b><p>I feel extremely confident with t206's, but even though I collected '33 and '34 Goudeys for a while, they still make me nervous. Not sure why, since you, MW, and others on the board have told me that it should be easy enough to spot fakes. <BR><BR>I think it was the fact that Garth Feldman (Feldman234) was able to sell so many fakes on ebay for high prices - made me paranoid. Then the b*stard established a rapport with me and sent me a '33 common, telling me it was a fake from the '60s - it looked EXACTLY like a real one, not surprising since you confirmed that it WAS real!

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Posted By: <b>Tim</b><p>thanks for the reply's, it is appreciated,,,you guys are quick, thanks so much. After reading your posts I am positive that a fake front is on my card. I have a modest amount of cards and this card has hardly any bend to it, all my other do. I don't have a black light yet, but when held up to a regular light, I can tell it is much thicker when side by side with a good card. Also the front is very glossy .I do try and buy from the big reputable guys, but this seemed like a good deal, I guess I learned an important lesson. I also appreciate the encouragement on the off condition cards, its nice knowing others buy what I like,,,I wish the funds were unlimited, but they are not. Again I appreciate the replys as I have been reading your posts for awhile now, and its nice that you took the time to help me...<BR><BR>now the hard part,dealing with the seller, I do agree that they may not know themselves, but I hate conflict,,<BR><BR>thanks again<BR><BR>oh yeah, i will scan it tomorrow at work so you can see it if interested,,,,i will say this, I couldn't tell from the ebay picture thats for sure...

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Posted By: <b>Hankron</b><p>With vintage cards, it is a well publicized minority who actively buy highest grade cards. Beleive it or not, a large percentage of collectors find some honest wear and tear to a T206 or 1933 Goudey to be attractive, and view the pristine 'like new' card to the strange one.

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Posted By: <b>Jeff S</b><p>It might not be that the average collector PREFERS their cards with wear and tear, but they do prefer that extra $1k in their pocket after purchasing the card...

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Posted By: <b>Hankron</b><p>I think that your point is correct, Jeff

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Posted By: <b>Harry</b><p>Boy, that seems like a lot of trouble that someone went through to make a fake T206, especially when it was also trimmed and had a real back. Unless it was a key card in the set, it could not have gone for much money. On the other hand, nothing that happens in this hobby suprises me. Try and post a scan and I am sure you will get an immediate respons. Also, try to get a few cheap commons to use as examples. There is nothing like handling the real thing.

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Posted By: <b>runscott</b><p>An ebay seller "beckmancards" recently sold them:<BR><BR><img src="http://i3.ebayimg.com/02/i/01/10/89/e7_1.JPG"><BR><img src="http://i3.ebayimg.com/01/i/01/10/89/e9_1.JPG">

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Posted By: <b>Harry</b><p>I guess it was naive of me to think that the altered reprints would be left to more expensive cards. I guess nothing is safe. Thanks for posting the pictures and the name of the seller.

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Posted By: <b>runscott</b><p>The seller hopes to make the more expensive reprints seem more legitimate by throwing in a few lower-dollar cards - these are all doctored cards from cheap reprint sets. In other words, he/she is content to take smaller bites out of his customers rather than to try for the big kill early on. <BR><BR>But enough of that - hope everyone is having a nice Christmas Eve.

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Posted By: <b>Tim</b><p>Well, I certainly goofed this up, after listening to everyones advice I emailed the guy on this auction...he claimed to be surprised and told me he would return my money,,and charge his consignor,,,,like an idiot because this was a two card lot I asked him to return half and I would keep the one good card,,,,<BR><BR>it still was a good deal for him as the good card was hinchman, the forged card collins....<BR><BR>well after asking him to split the difference I have been ignored,,,,<BR><BR>i guess I will learn my lesson and buy only graded cards from ebay,,,,<BR><BR>i hate sneaky people...

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Posted By: <b>Hankron</b><p>To be honest, it sounds as if you don't wish to stand up for your rights. I am a nice person, but, in these types of situations, there are two types of people: those who didn't take advantage of me, and those who wish they hadn't.

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Posted By: <b>tim</b><p>i agree, i am a bit of a wuss with stuff like this, but I am not giving up, i will leave bad feedback, email till i get a refund, complain to ebay, etc,.,,,<BR><BR>appreciate the reponses

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Posted By: <b>al</b><p>hey, im al and i had a quick question for u. theres a store in ny where u can buy old tabacco cards but i dont no where it is . i was wondering if u could help me?<BR>thanks!

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Posted By: <b>Anonymous</b><p>yup, just email me if I can help I gladly will...<BR><BR><img src="/images/happy.gif" height=14 width=14> tim