PSA vs GAI [Archive] - Net54baseball.com Forums

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02-28-2004, 12:35 AM

Posted By: jay behrensmercerfan, you obviously are new to the board or haven't read the numerous threads about grading companies. There is now a search function. Not sure if it is up to speed yet, but using that shoudl give you everything you need to about peoples feelings about the various grading companies. Quick synopsis: PSA: Good with modern cards. Clueless with vintage issues, letting many trimmed/altered and incorrectly identified cards out in their holders. SGC: The king of vintage grading. Spotty record in modern cards. GAI: very similar to SGC. Strong vintage presence with consistant grading. Beckett: stricly modern cards PRO: run for the hills. The vast majority in these cards are trimmed or altered. GAI is fairly new in the marketplace, so prices are not up to speed with SGC adn PSA. But it shouldn't take long for them to catch up in prices given their track record so far. Jay

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02-28-2004, 12:45 AM

Posted By: BOTNMurcerfan apparently forgot what board he was posting on or he has just clearly illustrated the brainwashing that he has undergone. Hurry and click your ruby heels together and repeat after me. "There's no place like home..."

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02-28-2004, 05:04 AM

Posted By: MWQuite simply put, the most recommended and widely used grading company by serious and knowledgeable vintage collectors (who desire to own graded cards) is SGC. As far as PSA is concerned, I would put both GAI and Beckett ahead of them. PSA has a very poor track record in the vintage card marketplace and enjoys widespread use only among novices or those who are more concerned with the number on the holder than the actual grade. Once collectors become more acclimated with grading nuances, they generally see the folly in submitting to a company (PSA) that possesses a substantially limited knowledge of vintage issues.

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02-28-2004, 06:24 AM

Posted By: t-206collectorIf you are collecting to keep your cards for more than a year or two, SGC has the best track record in the vintage market. There have been some reports of cards sliding around in holders and no one returning phone calls at GAI, but the general consensus is that GAI and SGC do the best job at accurately grading vintage cards. If you are looking for a quick turnaround and higher profits early, PSA is probably right for you because the vast majority of people buying vintage cards on ebay now are still willing to shell out big bucks for cards graded 6 or higher by PSA (see the PSA 6 Matty and Young that went for $1,600 and $3,000 last week). But the sentiment around here is that PSA doesn't know what it's doing with respect to the vintage market and eventually average collectors will catch on to that, so PSA may not have a bright future -- especially considering the obvious conflicts of interest among Collector's Universe subsidiaries (the same people grading the cards at PSA also run an auction house where they sell PSA graded cards).

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02-28-2004, 08:31 AM

Posted By: ElliotCU is in the process of selling it's Superior Auction subsidiary.

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02-28-2004, 08:36 AM

Posted By: s.slacksTo me, this issue is the weakest part of this otherwise very strong and very informative board. I end up sounding like a PSA defender when I am just trying to be impartial – and sometimes I feel like I’m the only one doing that. I think it’s only fair to point out the MW’s business is predicated on the success of SGC vs. PSA. Obviously, he had his reasons to convert, but I think it’s important to know where posters are coming from when they make blanket statements. Jay writes: <<PSA: Good with modern cards. Clueless with vintage issues, letting many trimmed/altered and incorrectly identified cards out in their holders.>> Many? What is many? If we see two examples a week on this board, that might be a very, very small fraction of the cards they grade. When we see SGC mistakes (check the archives, they’re there) that might in fact be more troublesome because those errors represent a larger percentage of graded vintage cards. Fact is, we don’t know exactly how many cards the grading services grade, but if you think that SGC grades more than PSA, I think you’re wrong. <<considering the obvious conflicts of interest among Collector's Universe subsidiaries (the same people grading the cards at PSA also run an auction house where they sell PSA graded cards)>> PSA sold Superior auctions earlier this month and is out of the auction business. I will agree wholeheartedly that SGC does a better job with vintage – at least the pre-WWI that I see a lot of. However, a card in a PSA holder will still sell for more than in a SGC holder. You can pick examples here and there that show exceptions, but that’s the truth. If you don’t believe this, look at the completed eBay auctions (through eBay or one of the online services that track auction results) and look at the crap that sells in PSA holders. A raw card with a grade of “good” can easily be accepted in a PSA 3 holder and go for $30 on eBay. That same card will for SGC 20 or 10 and go for half of that. The point is, the PSA holder sells. Never forget that there are many, many more casual buyers of cards than dedicated collectors. They have a built-in comfort with PSA and pay more for it. PSA might have lost favor with many of us, but we are a tiny percentage of the market. Their customer service proves it. Again, I don’t like it, but I think it’s fair to relate these facts to new posters who have questions. I wish SGC was “king,” but that’s only true if king means “many vintage collectors like them the most.” And yes, money is important to all of us, because the successful sales of our cards helps up invest more in the hobby. And no one likes to leave money on the table in a trasaction. By the way, I’m slacks and I’m logged in now. Someone already took the name “slacks” (or maybe I did many moons ago), so I’m s.slacks. I’m happy to be a part of this board.

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02-28-2004, 09:11 AM

Posted By: Todd (nolemmings)This debate goes on and on, and is much like arguing politics--it will never get resolved. Scarecrow, if the search engine works on this forum, you will see how each company has its own zealots, some with at least arguable agendas. Different vintage sets will perform differently, especially over time. You will also read the mantra--buy the card, not the holder. I think you'll find no shortage of SGC fans on this board, and alot of PSA bash...., er, criticism. Still, only a fool would argue that PSA cards do not perform well in the market. As for trends and future performance, that is and has been debatable. As for some recent (past year or so) problems and mistakes at PSA, that is less debatable--they have occurred. The recently discussed fiasco concerning the PSA 9 Rose is a good example. Greg, the likelihood of Murcerfan accidentally posting on the wrong board is about the same as me outbidding vendomecat on high grade vintage material--slim to none. <img src="/images/happy.gif" height=14 width=14> I actually wish he would contribute more on the 50's regionals he has, for although this forum is mostly pre-war, I believe there would be significant interest in these issues--call it a change of pace. My $.02 todd

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02-28-2004, 09:19 AM

Posted By: t-206collector...most of what you said. I was just trying to reflect what I understand the current state of affairs to be, based upon my reading of the board and upon MW's usual reactions to my comments and the support he gets from the other members of the board. The question for me has always been what's the best way to protect my collection for the future, both in terms of value and quality. I have seen enough in recent PSA auctions to raise considerable concern about some of the 6's and higher. I also believe that as long as the buying public believes whatever PSA tells them then it doesn't matter as much what the card looks like, from a seller's standpoint as opposed to a collector's standpoint. The question is whether the public will ever wake up to the problems with PSA and reject it as a medium for holding vintage cards. If so, then you'll see a mass transition to SGC and/or others. If PSA gets its act together and never loses market share then PSA will always get more for its cards than SGC.

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02-28-2004, 09:36 AM

Posted By: spaceops03From a sales standpoint - there is no question - a PSA graded card on average will more than likely bring a premium. Due to the large volume that PSA grades, there is however a broad fluctuation in the grades an individual may receive. GAI - while very reputable is still in its fledgling stages and of the three major grading companies tends to bring the least - although with their 1/2 point grading system - some cards (ie a GAI 7.5) will bring more than - for example a PSA 7. Personally I agree with a previous poster that GAI's grades are 1/2 to 1 point inflated. SGC graded cards - my personal favorite btw - have recently been catching up to PSA saleswise in the pre-war market. With many pre-war issues, SGC reigns supreme because of the expertise of their graders and because in many cases they have graded cards that the other companies have not. I have found that SGC graded cards past the 1920's do not bring near the $ that relative PSA cards do. BVG - too small a market population to really consider although high end vintage cards graded by BVG do bring strong premiums. Anyway, enough of my rambling. From a personal standpoint - if you are going to purchase your cards to keep (instead of for immediate resale) - go with SGC. If you want a quick turnaround - go with PSA. BTW - this topic has really been driven into the ground.

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02-28-2004, 10:21 AM

Posted By: MWSlacks, Before I address some of your misperceptions, I'd like to ask you some questions: 1. Who are you? A collector of vintage cards? A dealer in new, shiny inserts? Neither? 2. How much experience do you have buying and selling both SGC and PSA graded cards? 3. Besides the sale of common PSA 9s and PSA 10s from the 1960s and 70s (which no one here collects), what evidence do you have of comparable sales of PSA and SGC cards that prove your hasty generalization about PSA cards selling for more? Is this just your opinion or can you back it up with real (not imagined) data?

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02-28-2004, 10:50 AM

Posted By: runscottHow can you admit that SGC does a better job with vintage cards than PSA, yet support PSA whole-heartedly on a VINTAGE discussion board?

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02-28-2004, 11:12 AM

Posted By: MWSlacks writes: <> And the reason you know this is because.....? Surely, you must have access to both our public and private sales records of graded and ungraded cards as well as memorabilia. For that matter, do you even know how many PSA graded cards we sell each year? You know, slacks, it's really a good thing that you're one of the only impartial members of this forum. That way, when you shake your magic 8-ball, you know it's going to come up with the right answer every time. It has to. You're impartial.

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02-28-2004, 11:25 AM

Posted By: JasonSlacks- Remember..........buy the card not the holder! Also I will still purchase all of your "VG" t206s for 20% of NRMT standard! That is all they are worth you told me. I will pay 25% if they reside in an SGC holder! regards, Jason

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02-28-2004, 11:27 AM

Posted By: jay behrensSlacks, no one here has ever claimed that PSA doesn't get more money for its slab than any other company. The issue with PSA is that they have an incredibly large number of trimmed, altered and mislabeled cards in their holders. And the argument that they have slabbed more cards should mean that they are far more familiar with these cards and thus less prone to errors, rather than making the huge number of mistakes that they have made. I call SGC the The King of Vintage slabbing because they are that. They are very knowledgable about the cards they grade and comparable cards get comparable prices to PSA. Jay

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02-28-2004, 11:30 AM

Posted By: MWSlacks writes: << Many? What is many? If we see two examples a week on this board, that might be a very, very small fraction of the cards they grade. When we see SGC mistakes (check the archives, they’re there) that might in fact be more troublesome because those errors represent a larger percentage of graded vintage cards. >> Many would be several hundred PSA mistakes within the last year...perhaps even more. I know for a fact that both Greg (BOTN) and I possess a fairly large assortment of altered/misgraded PSA cards in our own private PSA collections (collections, by the way, that were not difficult to build). With the exception of several mislabeled cards and an Old Judge that was misgraded, I can't think of very many SGC "problems" in the last year. On the other hand, PSA blunders are nothing short of ubiquitous -- everything from chopped N300s to Gene Hermanski "errors" to laughably small T206s in "8" and "9" holders. And PSA mishaps are not solely confined to grading. Indeed, PSA has developed a special talent for losing expensive tobacco cards and breaking multi-thousand dollar cards out of PSA holders and stiffing customers by sending them back as "altered." Did I mention the fact that PSA still faces a certain $1.26 million liability problem or that the majority owner of CU has a reputation for dubious business practices? But never mind all that, slacks. You're the only one who is impartial here. I'm quite sure you're right about PSA.

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02-28-2004, 11:45 AM

Posted By: MWSlacks writes: <<PSA might have lost favor with many of us, but we are a tiny percentage of the market.>> A pretty ignorant statement...you're not related to Joe Orlando, are you? I can name at least a dozen vintage baseball sets where the constitution of this forum comprises a majority of all known collectors. And the contributions of this forum to many of the major price guides and hobby periodicals are nothing less than exceptional. By virtue of your own response, it seems that you have a genuine concern about the dissemination of vital information to the collectors and readers of this forum. Would that be the case if they represented "a tiny percentage of the market" like you claim?

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02-28-2004, 11:50 AM

Posted By: Lee BehrensIn this whole discussion of grading vintage cards SCD has been left out. Recently there has been quite a few T206s graded by SCD on ebay. The one I won I felt were fairly graded, the price was a litttle less than PSA and SGC but if they continue to show like the ones I bought they will become players in the vintage market. That said, I will continue to submit to SGC until I am given a good reason not too. SGC grades fairly, GREAT customer service, reasonable grading prices (NO member fee (big bonus for me) and the most attractive holder in the market. One question for the PSA submitted, Does the added expense of the cost of PSA grading over SGC grading costs, justify paying the extra money for an infearior product (especially on the cards VG/EX or worse)? We all do not collect the high end stuff. I know if you are able to get a grade or 2 bump up it definately makes worth while. If this is the case and you are intenting to resell all you are doing is ripping off the people willing to buy inflated PSA grades with your knowledge. I can honestly say that of the near 500 cards I submitted to SGC that I have received only 1 card (T202 common)I felt came back with a higher grade than expected, I thought because the card waas dirty it it not warrant the 84 it got. I have received more dissapointments in reverse, but I will continue to send them to SGC because I feel they are fair and if I ever decide to resell them I do not have to feel like I am taking advantage of someone. Too me that is what the whole debate comes down to, are you in it for the money than PSA is the route to go. Otherwise SGC,SCD, and GAI are better options for consistancy on grading and a better holder. Just to end with the point I started, SCD needs to be considered after the recent batch up on ebay, the ones I received were graded fairly and the holder is not bad.

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02-28-2004, 12:12 PM

Posted By: s.slacksMW: I have experience in vintage cards, both in buying a selling. I am not a dealer, but I don’t think that makes my opinion any less relevant. In addition to tracking the results myself, in addition to crossing over many cards from SGC to PSA (and many cards the other way), I have submitted raw to both companies. The beauty of the Internet is that with a little perseverance, you can get a very good idea what the market is doing, and has done. I can give you many examples, but I haven’t bothered because I am sure you can produce examples of similarly graded SGC cards outselling PSA ones. I’m not going to cut and paste the completed eBay auctions for you, but take a look. Search by grade. Look at the cards. I completely stand by my statement that, on average, a vintage card in a PSA holder will sell for more than the same card in a SGC holder. And to runscott: I’m just being honest. I don’t support PSA whole-heartedly. As I said, I’m a realist, and I track the results of suctions myself and through one of many services.. Look, I prefer the SGC holder in aesthetics and the graders for consistent grading. When I submit to PSA, I’m never quite sure what will come back. I have most of my personal collection in SGC. But, to expand on my point, I can buy raw T206 commons for maybe $12-14. That card can get a PSA 3 grade (IMO they let almost anything into a 3 folder) and sell for about $32. Or I can submit to SGC and have it come back 30 or 20 and they sell for half that. If I were selling cards only to the people on this board, I’d only deal in SGC. But – and I made this point in my rant about accepting PayPal – I want to cast my net as widely as possible. There’s some guy out there who doesn’t have time to research cards, grading companies, auction houses, forums, etc., and all he knows is that PSA is the biggest grading company out there, that they guarantee their cards are authentic, and he’s going to do an eBay search under “T206 PSA.” He buys cards and I want to sell to him –not because I’m money-grubbing, but because I owe it to myself and my family to maximize my return. Jason: for the second time, I never used those percentages or made any statement as to your cards’ value. Look back at the thread -- I just did. Runscott said that he used a certain percentage of NM to value VG’s and I expanded on the math. Nothing to do with you. And to the old, tired, buy the card not the holder: I do this (usually), you do this, yeah, yeah. But the bottom line is that the grade adds value to a card. In many cases, an early 1950’s Bowman PSA 8, for example, has a value many times that of a PSA 7. What the casual buyers don’t know (or care?) is that that card may have finally earned that grade on the fourth submission. Same card, sells for more. It’s the same principle for grading companies. <<By virtue of your own response, it seems that you have a genuine concern about the dissemination of vital information to the collectors and readers of this forum. Would that be the case if they represented "a tiny percentage of the market" like you claim?>> I don't see the correlation. My point is that we're a tiny part of PSA's market - they don't cater to us. This lets them continue their poor customer service and allows them to never have fullt addresed the WIWAG affair. If we all go away thet'd be fine grading 2001 LeBron cards (or whatever). But that doesn't take away from the fact that their holders help cards sell. And, MW, no, I'm not related to Joe Orlando. Sorry to post so long – I hope that adds some clarity to my earlier post.

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02-28-2004, 12:36 PM

Posted By: MWSlacks writes: << I can give you many examples, but I haven't bothered because I am sure you can produce examples of similarly graded SGC cards outselling PSA ones. I'm not going to cut and paste the completed eBay auctions for you, but take a look. Search by grade. Look at the cards. >> <> OK. You write that you can provide many examples where PSA graded vintage cards are selling for more than their SGC counterparts. Can you show me ten? Or would twenty be considered many? I'll let you decide. Funny, we must be using different versions of eBay. I await some verifiable proof of your statements.

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02-28-2004, 12:56 PM

Posted By: Mike Williams(I've certainly been called worse), but more than one regular poster here has also mentioned PSA cards selling for more than SGC. Slacks isn't alone in thinking this. A quick browsing of MW's on-line inventory shows a nice selection of PSA graded cards (one SGC card even has the "as good as a PSA 9" mention). Simple question for MW...if SGC sells for as much (or more) than PSA, why not cross the PSA inventory over to SGC? This would not only be consistent with your grader of choice, but also be a potential financial gain. I'm also curious to see the promised PSA information you've promised on several occasions. Take care all!

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02-28-2004, 01:06 PM

Posted By: Lee BehrensSlacks, Have you ever tried to send a card back to PSA that is trimmed, or altered in their holder? Do you guarantee your graded cards in your sales? You will find that they are not to willing to admit there mistakes and guarantee the cards in there holders. Why do you think that people selling graded cards make sales final? It's because there is NO recourse from the grading companies and that goes for all of them. They will sometimes try to make good if you are the original submitter but once it changes hands forget it. One other point slacks about your comment about "not being a money grubber and your doing it for your family". You are knowingly send to PSA with the chance it will get a higher grade than it actually should and then you go and take advantage of someone by reselling it at an inflated price. You are the one that has to live with yourself in these situations. This my friend is called "money grubbing"

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02-28-2004, 01:06 PM

Posted By: MWSlacks writes: << I don't see the correlation. My point is that we're a tiny part of PSA's market - they don't cater to us. This lets them continue their poor customer service and allows them to never have fullt addresed the WIWAG affair. If we all go away thet'd be fine grading 2001 LeBron cards (or whatever). But that doesn't take away from the fact that their holders help cards sell. >> Your original statement was that the members of this board were a tiny part of the market. My impression is that you meant the vintage baseball card market -- which is what we were discussing -- not the PSA market. If you had meant the PSA market, you would have not have used the word "but" contrasting the first and second parts of your original sentence. Curious. I'm just not buying (or understanding) your argument that "casual collectors" instinctively put more trust in PSA because they're the largest. A cursory look at the business world will clue you in to the reality that the largest businesses do not always have the best reputations nor do they inspire the greatest confidence in consumers. Take a look at CU's quarterly SEC filings and where the greatest source of revenue is from. Guess what? It's higher ticket submissions -- vintage coins and vintage sports cards. You might enjoy in indulging in wishful thinking while convincing yourself that PSA maintains its optimal profit margins with modern grading submissions, but this just isn't the case. Besides the fact that PSA has lost a substantial market share in modern cards to Beckett, their per-card profit is substantially smaller with this type of service. The greatest revenues are from vintage baseball card submissions. And this means that sooner or later, PSA is going to have to face the reality that there are at least three or four companies that are better at grading vintage cards than they are. Already we've seen PSA 8s and PSA 9s selling for below SMR prices while SGC graded cards continue to gain in value. Just look at the last Mastro auction. Many over-graded PSA cards did poorly while SGC did quite well. I would look for this trend to continue. Any perception that VINTAGE cards in PSA holders consistently sell for more is a mistaken perception based on spacious reasoning, flawed analysis and a general disregard for reality.

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02-28-2004, 01:12 PM

Posted By: t-206collectorI am also curious to see more information on the $1.26 million PSA liability -- I suspect that is in reference to the Wagner. Is there a court complaint somewhere I can pull from a docket? The name of the court would be sufficient for me.

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02-28-2004, 01:18 PM

Posted By: t-206collectorJust because MW has repeatedly dinged me for bad grammar, I believe MW is referring to "specious" reasoning. With respect to the statement that it is "money grubbing" to have one's cards graded in order to obtain maximum value, I don't think that's money grubbing, I think that's smart business. So long as it does not run afoul of basic statutory or common law fraud standards. Knowingly submitting a trimmed card for authentication is illegal and should be punished to the fullest extent of the law. Submitting a card that is authentic to the grading company that will show the maximum return in investment is good business.

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02-28-2004, 01:20 PM

Posted By: MW<< Simple question for MW...if SGC sells for as much (or more) than PSA, why not cross the PSA inventory over to SGC? >> A simple answer for Mike Williams. I already have. Examples -- SGC 96 N172 King Kelly, SGC 96 1935 National Chicle Bronko Nagurski -- two of the most expensive cards we have listed on our website. Some cards sell for approximately the same amount. Those I've just left.

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02-28-2004, 01:21 PM

Posted By: t-206collector...which should be outlawed ab initio.

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02-28-2004, 01:22 PM

Posted By: Lee BehrensIt is money grubbing if you are doing it with the intention of hopefully getting a card overgraded and being able to make more money because of the fact you know the card is overgraded and knowing sell it as such. I don't think that is a possiblity with SGC, SCD, GAI, or Beckett.

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02-28-2004, 01:29 PM

Posted By: MWI wrote: << Did I mention the fact that PSA still faces a certain $1.26 million liability problem >> T206collector, I'm somewhere unclear where I specified a specific court case. I guess the proper context escapes you.

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02-28-2004, 01:32 PM

Posted By: Mike Williamsconfused again...the Kelly appears to be in a PSA 9 holder. Get that Uzit Cobb in an SGC holder, he'd look much more "at home".

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02-28-2004, 01:38 PM

Posted By: t-206collectorIsn't it just as easy to say that Becket "undergrades" cards? If I avoid Becket because of that, am I a "money grubber"?

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02-28-2004, 01:40 PM

Posted By: MWMike, My apologies. Remind me to send you an email the next time I cross a card to an SGC holder.

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02-28-2004, 01:43 PM

Posted By: t-206collectorMW, The context escapes me? "Liability" means that PSA owes a debt of $1.26 million. Please explain to me what you mean by this? The term "liability" is often used in the context of a legal proceeding, as in PSA is liable to the owner of the T206 Wagner for the price of the Wagner or $1.26 million. I am interested to know more about this since you have brought it up at least three times that I can think of, most recently in the latest thread. If there's a thread from years past that I missed, please enlighten me with a link.

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02-28-2004, 01:44 PM

Posted By: Todd (nolemmings)Here. A week or so ago, I wanted to buy a graded T206 Doc White Card. I only dabble in t206s, but I like Doc White. I bid $63 on a PSA 5, my marker toward what I hoped would be a relatively inexpensive card. It went for $180.00, and yes, it had a Soveregn back, slightly more difficult. I did not see an SGC card of any grade for Doc, but I am truly skeptical an SGC 60 would have fetched that price. If someone wants to show me a completed auction of a comparable SGC card that garnered even half that price, please do so. Now I am not looking to find one special auction solely to prove my point- I merely point to one card that caught my eye. Still, this is not an anomoly, as I learned by investing the last 10 minutes in researching completed ebay auctions. There, I saw 8 auctions of PSA 5 t206 commons that sold for 99.99 or more, up to 170.38. This is just Piedmont and Sweet Cap backs. I didn't even see 8 SGC 60s for sale at all, and the 5 I actually saw all went between $65 and $88. Also, I noticed that a PSA 4 Foley White sold for $115 while a lightly lower graded SGC 40 sold for $56.19. In light of the foregoing, I find it difficult to criticize those who choose to sell their t206s in PSA holders. I also I find it both incredible and condescending to suggest that those who believe PSA pre-war cards generally sell better than SGC are somehow relying on "imagined" data for their beliefs. Buyers and sellers are free to make their own choices, without getting bogged down in this us vs. them, I know more than you, "you're either with us or against us" bullroar. I say vive la difference, competition is good, and enjoy your hobby.

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02-28-2004, 01:48 PM

Posted By: MWDo a search.

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02-28-2004, 02:01 PM

Posted By: t-206collectorWhat kinds of search terms should I use? Wagner? T206? I'll get a million hits. And do you mean search on this board or search on Google? Usually when a company dupes you out of $1.26 million there is a lawsuit that follows. Is it at all possible the the purchaser of the Wagner card is not planning on filing a lawsuit? Was there a behind the doors settlement? Again, any info would be greatly appreciated. Frankly, you keep saying that PSA has a $1.26 million liability on their hands and I just wanted to see a little evidence of that.

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02-28-2004, 02:06 PM

Posted By: t-206collector<<Buyers and sellers are free to make their own choices, without getting bogged down in this us vs. them, I know more than you, "you're either with us or against us" bullroar. I say vive la difference, competition is good, and enjoy your hobby.>> Completely agree with you.

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02-28-2004, 02:09 PM

Posted By: Mike WilliamsI'll keep it with all the other emails BMW has sent me!

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02-28-2004, 02:36 PM

Posted By: Jeff LichtmanWhat a bunch of windbags. <img src="/images/happy.gif" height=14 width=14> I'm a collector only and have bought many slabbed cards from both the 50s and 60s and T206 issue. All the cards I buy are PSA 7 (and the corresponding GAI 7 and SGC 84 and up). I've bought hundreds of cards over the past year and spent well over five figures. Take this for what it's worth but understand that I have a large population to draw from: highly graded cards from the 50s and 60s have similar values regardless if they are in SGC, PSA or GAI holders. GAI is usually a little less. As for the highly graded T206s, PSA gets a much higher price than the comparable SGC graded cards. It's not even close. In addition, a simple search on ebay will find that the amount of PSA vintage cards is much, more plentiful than SGC graded cards available for sale. While I tend to think the black background of SGC is nicer to look at, a slab is a slab to me--unless it becomes clear at some point that PSA is routinely slabbing trimmed cards and PSA thus becomes PRO. To all you PSA bashers, however, that's not going to happen....

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02-28-2004, 02:53 PM

Posted By: MWJust don't send profanity in return.

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02-28-2004, 02:57 PM

Posted By: MW<< As for the highly graded T206s, PSA gets a much higher price than the comparable SGC graded cards. >> Yeah, especially for those razor sharp PSA 8s, 9s & 10s...but then again, who on this forum buys those sorts of cards? I know I don't.

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02-28-2004, 03:03 PM

Posted By: runscottBut one correction: I use a percentage of NM to determine "book value" of vg t206s - as Jason has pointed out, and I agree with him, "book value" and "market value" differ (market is higher for t206s); however, where we differ in opinion is in what constitutes a "vg" card. At the risk of heating up the debate, I think he has contradicted himself in that area - I am in agreement with SGC, PSA, SCBC and most board members as to what a "VG" card is - Jason feels that "VG" is what those afore-mentioned sources would call "EX" (or at least very close to it). He has also said that he feels GAI grades accurately, which is where the contradiction comes in - one of Jason's "VG"s would be "EXMT" in a GAI holder. It doesn't matter to me - if I ever buy a card from Jason I'll ask for a clear scan and make a decision from that...and if I ever sell a card to Jason I will provide him with very clear scans, as I have in the past, so he shouldn't give a flip how I grade them.

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02-28-2004, 03:03 PM

Posted By: BotnIt has been my experience PSA graded cards generally sell for more than the GAI and SGC counterparts. I think that this is illustrated more clearly with commons for pre and post war issues. I attribute this reality only to the set Registry and not the fact that PSA is the more capable or qualified of the 3 companies. Even if I knew that PSA cards always sold for 20% more I would still use SGC and GAI to grade my cards. The more GAI and SGC cards out there, the more the public will be aware of their other choices. Cleary I prefer to sell a product that is backed by a company that not only will guarantee their grade but also offers a more accurate and consistent service. The public is catching on.

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02-28-2004, 03:07 PM

Posted By: MW<< Frankly, you keep saying that PSA has a $1.26 million liability on their hands and I just wanted to see a little evidence of that. >> It (the Wagner) is usually on display at every National. Take a look sometime. Maybe you'll fall in love with the card and double the previous purchase price. Problem solved.

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02-28-2004, 03:09 PM

Posted By: runscottIt is very strange how the low-grade PSA t206 commons have been selling for so much, but it can't be discounted. Some have speculated that it is collectors trying to build their sets for the registry - which is possible, but stupid. If this is the collector's goal, he/she should buy the cards raw (plenty of vg to vgex commons available) and then send them in to PSA. I have noticed SGC-graded commons also showing some ridiculous pricing recently, but not as bad as PSA. But back to that Doc White example - I have an SGC40 Doc White portrait with an SGC back that I'm sure would get more than $180.

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02-28-2004, 03:16 PM

Posted By: s.slacksMW, and everyone else: I will come up with some examples of PSA selling prices vs. other companies' slabs. I usually spend a little time once a week going over recent sales and updating my records, and I will be doing that in the next couple of days. However I have no doubt that you can find examples as well. I'll title the post appropriately, so those of you who are sick to death of this thread, stay away!

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02-28-2004, 03:37 PM

Posted By: t-206collectorMW: <<Did I mention the fact that PSA still faces a certain $1.26 million liability problem>> me: << Frankly, you keep saying that PSA has a $1.26 million liability on their hands and I just wanted to see a little evidence of that. >> MW: <<It (the Wagner) is usually on display at every National. Take a look sometime. Maybe you'll fall in love with the card and double the previous purchase price. Problem solved.>> Me: So your evidence is that I should "[t]ake a look sometime"? Basically you're saying that you've taken a look at the card and are convinced it's trimmed/altered/not-authentic? That's your "liability"? Are you kidding me?

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02-28-2004, 03:38 PM

Posted By: t-206collector MW: <<Did I mention the fact that PSA still faces a certain $1.26 million liability problem>> me: << Frankly, you keep saying that PSA has a $1.26 million liability on their hands and I just wanted to see a little evidence of that. >> MW: <<It (the Wagner) is usually on display at every National. Take a look sometime. Maybe you'll fall in love with the card and double the previous purchase price. Problem solved.>> Me: So your evidence is that I should "[t]ake a look sometime"? Basically you're saying that you've taken a look at the card and are convinced it's trimmed/altered/not-authentic? That's your "liability"? Are you kidding me?

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02-28-2004, 03:43 PM

Posted By: runscottJeff - you are in much greater danger than the rest of us (some of us, anyway) of incorporating PSA trimmed cards into your collection...for the simple reason that we ARE aware of the fact that PSA slabs high-end trimmed cards. So we are on the look-out for them, especially in "big" auctions...ahem. You might call this "PSA bashing", but I call it "being careful not to buy expensive crap". But as long as YOU can't tell the difference, it's really irrelevant, since you don't ever sell your cards. The first time I noticed PSA's proclivity for slabbing trimmed cards was about three years ago when I had only submitted cards to PSA, and never SGC. A seller on ebay broke up a set of mostly EX cards, many with numbers written on the back, and sent some of the HOF'ers and other more difficult cards to PSA. The cards trickled onto ebay over several months, with a few high-grade PSA HOF'ers popping up every now and then...always short and sometimes thin. It was so incredibly obvious what was going on. I'm sure many of you remember this seller, but I can't think of her name.

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02-28-2004, 03:55 PM

Posted By: runscottLet's say that you own the Gretzky t206 Wagner and are looking to sell it (perhaps a PSA10 set of refractors became available and you are low on cash). ...Someone comes along with a contract stating that they will give you an extra $500,000 for the Wagner, but only if you will first cross it over to SGC, regardless of the grade received. Would you crack it out of the slab and send it to SGC? I didn't think so.

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02-28-2004, 04:10 PM

Posted By: Jeff LichtmanScott, I hear you. But usually it's difficult to disccern a trimmed card from a scan on an ebay auction as you can't measure the cards online. All things being equal, therefore, I would obviously never bid on a PSA (or SGC) slabbed card that looks suspicious. And I buy whatever I need or want, regardless of whether the card is in a PSA or SGC holder. I just note that the PSA cards sell for more. And though I'm a collector and not a seller, I still want to buy at a decent value if possible. At some point probably after I'm in the ground, one of my ungrateful offspring of my offspring of my offspring will probably sell my cards to Kit Young's distant relative for peanuts...

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02-28-2004, 04:16 PM

Posted By: MWT206collector, I'm completely serious when I say that I think you should look at the card sometime. When I look at it, I can clearly tell that it has been altered, but perhaps when you look at it, you won't see the same things that I do. I think this is only natural. Different collectors look at different qualities of a card and assign different weights to various defects. And if this is the case -- if the card appears properly graded to you -- then I see no reason to offer further proof. Let's start there. View the card. If, after doing this, you have reason to believe that it might be altered, I'll provide some links to evidence that I have already posted on the Internet. If, on the other hand, you see nothing wrong with it, I see no reason to post anything further since you'll likely view it as mere propaganda. Does that seem reasonable? BTW, good catch on "spacious"

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02-28-2004, 04:29 PM

Posted By: MW<< However, a card in a PSA holder will still sell for more than in a SGC holder. You can pick examples here and there that show exceptions, but that’s the truth. >> Slacks, Your original statement appears above -- it seems to be a generalization that the vast majority (with only a few exceptions) of PSA graded cards sell for more than SGC graded cards. You later qualified this statement by indicating that it applied to vintage cards. I'm not asking for evidence that compares PSA to other grading companies since I recognize the fact that many other companies' cards sell for less. Specifically, I'm looking for prices for vintage cards (as would be pertinent to this forum) that show that PSA cards sell for more than SGC cards. As far as fulfilling your assertion that this occurs in the vast majority of cases, I'll leave the extent of that proof up to you.

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02-28-2004, 04:44 PM

Posted By: AnonI have bought 10 vintage (1911-1959)hockey cards from BMW, all but one in great shape, and none of them slabbed in any way. I was just wondering how a "PSA vs. GAI" thread could garner 54 posts! So now I know.

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02-28-2004, 06:24 PM

Posted By: JasonIn response to Scott's post I agree that I grade really conservative.....probably a grade or so too much. Scott does provide clean clear scans. I still do not see where I contradicted myself though.

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02-28-2004, 06:42 PM

Posted By: runscottI have really enjoyed the last few threads where you, Slacks and MW all got involved - you guys have the ability to really lay into each other, but still manage to keep your wits about you...and the occasional interjections by Todd, Pete, etc., add a little color and keep it lively.

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02-28-2004, 06:56 PM

Posted By: runscottBut I have to disagree about one point you make - I have seen enough t206s to where I can sometimes tell easily if a card has been trimmed, even from an ebay scan. I can't do that with all issues, but for a few it is quite easy in many cases (t206s, t205s, etc.) That's not bragging, simply what you would expect from anyone who has spent countless hours looking closely at many, many cards. That doesn't mean that I couldn't make a mistake. I have talked with MW about '50s cards and it's obvious that he can spot trimmed, slabbed cards very easily - I am clueless and don't care much for those cards, so I'm not willing to spend time getting myself "educated". MW and others have told me that spotting trimmed '50s cards is actually quite easy. ...and I don't typically measure cards - if you've seen enough of a particular issue, you don't need to pull out a ruler;in fact, I think it's a crutch for some collectors that actually inhibits their learning the issue. Every time someone mentions their ruler in relation to a low-grade t206, it tells me something about their expertise. If a card looks short, I will look very carefully at the borders to try and determine if it is likely that it's been trimmed. In the case of high-grade t206s, the ruler WILL come out, and the card better measure "full", or I don't want it. That's simply reducing risk - sure, I will pass on legitimate cards by doing that, but I don't care.

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02-28-2004, 07:31 PM

Posted By: JasonWhere is Daniels when we need some real color?

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02-28-2004, 07:34 PM

Posted By: Kenny ColeAs you can probably now tell, the answer to your question is that there is no definitive answer. These PSA vs. SGC vs. GAI type posts come up way too frequently, and all they do is engender a bunch of dispute, rhetoric, accusations, ugliness, etc. It is kind of like asking who to vote for. Everyone has their own opinions, based on alleged facts, beliefs or agendas. Those "facts," beliefs or agendas may or may not be correct, and they may or may not be yours. I don't sell cards, don't submit them for grading to any company, and could basically care less other than to say that this ground has been plowed down to bedrock. There ain't no crops gonna grow there no more. My best suggestion is that if you want to have a card graded, listen to everyone, believe no one, do your own research, and figure out which grading company best suits your particular needs. Good luck. Kenny Cole