PayPal screws over another board member

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Posted By: <b>David Seaborn</b><p> I know there was a recent thread on this, but I feel obligated to let you guys know how PayPal has screwed me over. <BR> Last October an eBay buyer named Francine7117, who of course, is now an unregistered user due to failure of payment to multiple sellers, won several of my auctions. After a long wait and several emails, she finally paid for two of my cards which totaled about $125. The rest she never paid for. <BR> Anyway, jump to a few weeks ago. Francine put in a claim with her credit card that the two cards were bought wtth a stolen card (contrary to her emails with me at the time). PayPal sent me a notice (to which I could not respond) that I had to prove I sent the items. Of course, they gave me a three day deadline and no phone number and I was out of town. On returning, I immediately went to there site and emailed them explaining the items were uninsured at buyer's choice and I had no tracking number. Yesterday I received an email from 'Jorge' at PayPal (again no phone number and I could not respond to this email) stating all I had to do was provide the tracking number. Obviously this was a form letter or he had not taken the time to read my email. <BR> Today, I get an email stating PayPal has taken back the $125 from me AND charged me a $10 'reversal fee' for each transaction. Now I'm out almost $150 and she has the cards....Unbelievable....I guess there's nothing I can do other than printing out all the emails they sent me that I couldn't respond to and use them for toilet paper.

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Posted By: <b>Jimmy Scott Elkins</b><p>As I stated before, the SAME thing almost happened to me around 2-3 years ago. LUCKILY, I closed my bank account and reported my credit cards stolen before PayPal deducted $200+ from me! I have not been a Paypal member since, and NEVER EVER will be again. Plus, not accepting Paypal has NOT hurt my auctions in the least - I even feel I am getting BETTER prices! Again, I am TRULY SORRY to hear this and hate that it happened to you! Hopefully, you too will close your Paypal account - maybe, if enough people close their accounts on this matter, Paypal might one day wisen up and change this HORRIBLE policy that could definitely be abused by fraudelent buyers. Hell, if I was dishonest, I would pay Paypal the $250, join back up, buy around $50k-$100k of cards and claim I didn't receive a one!

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Posted By: <b>Julie</b><p>when the voice says " buyer or seller protection issues, press 4"-- press 4. (it doesn't matter if this doesn't cover your issue--you need to press it to GET AHEAD.<BR>Don't answer any more automated questions; even- tually a voice will say, "if you still want to talk to an agent, press 0."<BR>Press it!<BR>There will be a medium wait, with music in the back ground, and people yakking at you--but soon, a REAL LIVE HUMAN will answer ther phone!I know it doesn't seem possible, but they are Very very helpful, and will walk you through anything and answer any question.

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Posted By: <b>Lee Behrens</b><p>I spoke to a live person with my problem and explained the situation. It did absolutely NO good, all it was was a form letter in person with zero chance of having any possiblity besides doing what the form letter said. I ever tried speaking to a manager and he woould not transfer me. To me the "human" service is no better than the form letter except that you can chew someone out that can do nothing for you. I have zero faith in Paypal at this time until they change there policies. <BR><BR>As I noted before I am pulling all automaticPaypal listings and notices and no longer going to offer it for transactions under $100.

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Posted By: <b>Julie</b><p>with all the juice thay charge you! Substantial prices considerably reduced by "fees." Yurg! Still, like people who accept credit card payemnts everywhere, you<BR>sometimes have to bite the bullet and accept it. Of course, once you accept their terms, their fees apply to ANY money transfer from your pp account. But the "instant money" is so attractive.<BR><BR>I have yet to try them in a dispute, but they were so helpful telling me what to do in other cases,I thought they might also be in a dispute. Sorry...

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Posted By: <b>J</b><p>money incoming to your paypal account from elsewhere. The IMPORTANT money...

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Posted By: <b>shammus</b><p><BR>I have to agree with Lee on this one. In my dispute with them, the only thing that the person I got on the phone told me that was different from the form letter was that, in addition to being screwed because I didn't send the item with a tracking number, I was extra-screwed because I sent the package to an unconfirmed address. On the phone, they're every bit as cryptic and unsympathetic to the sellers as the annoying "automated responses" they send out in response to your inquiries.

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Posted By: <b>Julie</b><p>...

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Posted By: <b>Jay Miller</b><p>After reading a few of these posts why does anyone deal with paypal? Run your auctions, let people pay with checks or money orders, if checks- do not send material until the check clears unless you know the person. What could be easier?

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Posted By: <b>runscott</b><p>I put all sorts of disclaimers in my last listings, and STILL got a payment from someone with an unconfirmed account. He told me "don't worry - it just means I want you to send it to an address other than the one listed with Paypal." Geez.

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Posted By: <b>Elliot</b><p>I understand what you guys are saying regarding PayPal, and I certainly understand why somebody would not want to accept it, BUT as a buyer I "love" using PayPal, for the following reasons:<BR><BR>1) I can immediately make the payment after the auction ends, eliminating one more thing off of my "to do" list.<BR><BR>2) I don't need to bother to write out my address neatly, write a cheque, find an envelope, and make sure I have a stamp for mail to the U.S.<BR><BR>3) As a Canadian, I'm constantly having to go to the bank to replenish my US $ account. With PayPal the conversion happens automatically by my credit card company.<BR><BR>I know that for items under $100, I'm always willing to spend a few bucks more for an item, if the seller takes PayPal.<BR><BR>Also, as a Canadian, i think that all of our addresses our "unconfirmed, so an unconfirmed address, doesn't always have a nefarious conotation.

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Posted By: <b>Hankron</b><p>Selling internationally, PayPal is a great convenience, as someone from France or Britan can send $$ the day of the auction. I have yet to have a reverse charge, which is not to say it won't happen. <BR><BR>My recommendation has been, and still is, to add 20 or 25 cents to your shipping/handlings cost to cover any future mishap. If you feel the need to have specific requirements for someone to use PayPal (minimum or maximum price, confirmed address, tracking) use it.<BR><BR>To me, you should pay for quality. eBay sellers who charge pennies for shipping and handling and don't take into consideration their costs come across poorly. It says that they don't have confidence in themselves, their products or services. When someone charges $1 to ship a 11x14" vintage photograph, it raises more questions than it answers. If a seller sells quality and authentic stuff, does a good job packaging and communicates well I am more than happy to cover their charges and efforts. If one of these sellers says, "I charge $7 because I'm a great seller and am worth it. If you want to get 37 cents of service, bid somewhere else" I buy from this person and don't look for the guy who charges 37 cents.<BR><BR>In short, if you are a good seller and realize you have to raise your shipping 25 cents as a form of insurance: charge it! I can promise you that if Scott Gaynor raises his shipping price 25 cents, I won't be switching to Dr. Bonds because his shipping rates are so reasonable.<BR>

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Posted By: <b>Hankron</b><p>In short: Be a quality seller, charge what you're worth. If you a crappy seller, then by all means charge pennies.

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Posted By: <b>runscott</b><p>the complaints we are hearing would not be resolved by the SELLER being better! We're talking about sellers getting screwed by unscrupulous buyers who are protected by lame Paypal policies. I'm not worried about buyers like Elliot! I'm worried about buyers like "attic-toys".<BR><BR>But the nice thing about this discussion is that now everything's on the table and we can make intelligent decisions.

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Posted By: <b>warshawlaw</b><p>where I came out on top every time, I decided that I would NEVER accept it as a seller. They were so quick to refund my money that it was scary. As a buyer, I love the system for its simplicity, especially since it was integrated with ebay's my ebay system. As a seller, however, I know that I will lose any dispute, regardless of how correct I am. Why bother? <BR><BR>I do have to differ a bit with my good friend and colleague Hankron on the issue of shipping costs, however. I admit it, I'm cheap too as a buyer, so I do understand. I do not think I would bid for many $1-$100 items if I had to take a 5%-10% hit for shipping too. I believe in giving people the options that I would like to have to go on the cheap for shipping, but that doesn't necessarily make me or anyone else who does it a crappy seller. I usually charge $2 to ship, insurance optional. That just about pays for a card holder, cardboard and tape wrapping and a bubble mailer, plus postage. My listings expressly state that non-insurance puts them on the risk of loss. If they want to send an SASE for a card, I'll do that too for non-slabbed cards, again at their risk. That being said, I also understand I take a bit of a risk of negative feedback in being accomodating because I have yet to meet a buyer who says "OK" when I explain that I am not refunding his (or her) $$ for an item that I shipped but that never arrived in their SASE or uninsured parcel. However, I decided that I would rather take the occasional hit from a disgruntled buyer than ask everyone to pony up auction house-sized shipping costs. Ironically, one of my few negatives came from a guy who wanted $2.50 to ship a $5 card and would not take an SASE. He told me I got the card cheaply enough as it was so I could fork over the jack for him to throw it into an envelope. I refused and we exchanged negatives. <BR><BR>

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Posted By: <b>Jimmy Scott Elkins</b><p>As a bidder, I simply figure out the most I am willing to pay for an item. Then, place my bid taking the shipping charges into account, whether they are 10 cents or $20. There are several costs other than top loaders and bubble envelopes. So, as a seller, I take this into account as well. You have your time at the Post Office, packaging the item, etc. Also, some people have their secretaries do this for them. Plus, I always try to come out around a dollar to the good on shipping at least - it helps offset some of the constant rising eBay fees. So, if you are willing to pay $100 for a card, and the shipping charges including insurance are around $20 - only bid $80. This works great for me!