New T206 player found

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Posted By: <b>T206 info</b><p> There was recent discoveries including a signed contract to appear on a card and a proof card attached to the letter that indicates that one of the cards of Howie Camnitz was actually his brother Harry who also played for the 1909 Pirates.In a family attic of descendants of the 2 ballplayers were dual contracts for them to appear on the T206 cards themselves(For Howie there is also a T205 contract with a finished card but neither contract offers any kind of payment)<BR><BR><BR>The cards were obviously not referred to as T206 or T205 in the contract because they werent referred to as that back then.According to the owner of the documents(which i will post when i get clearer scans,or am actually able to purchase once a deal can be worked out)there was a stipulation in Howies contract that his brother appear on one card otherwise he would not let them use his image(not word for word)<BR><BR>Harry was the younger brother of Howie and he pitched briefly for the Pirates during their first world series season.He was with the team off and on but only appeared in one game over 2 seasons.In 1911 he pitched again briefly for the Cardinals when he realized that he didnt have much chance of cracking the Pirates rotation.<BR><BR>Of course if everything that ive read and heard from the owners of the documents is true,and i have no reason or suspicions that its not,it means there is a new player but obviously not any new cards(besides the proofs of 2 t206s which may or may not be one of a kind.<BR><BR>There will be more updates as available and will be posted on a yet unfinished site named www.t206info.com<BR> This will be the lead story but i wanted to give the group here a heads up of the site and what better way to do it.Thank you<BR>Thomas J Marshall co-owner www.T206info.com<BR><BR>P.S. Under family wishes i will not release their information publicly or thru email.I was only able to come across this info thru mutual friends of the family who recommended me to help them put values on the documents and give them information pertaining to them.The cards were also not the only memoribilia they came across but according to the family nothing is up for sale as of yet.I have not yet seen the items in person but have had poor scans and detailed conversation with the owners and mutual friend who has viewed these items

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Posted By: <b>Patrick McMenemy</b><p>Hi Thomas:<BR><BR>I purchased a photo on EBAY last year which I have identified as the Pittsburg Pirates circa 1909-1910, which I believe includes at least one of the Camnitz bothers. (I believe Howie is the second player in on the right in the back row.)<BR><BR>Feel free to forward the scan on to the family to see if in fact my identification is correct. They may be able to shed more light on my photo as well.<BR><BR>Thanks, Patrick<BR><BR><BR><BR><img src="http://www.network54.com/Realm/tmp/1074811981.JPG">

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Posted By: <b>Patrick McMenemy</b><p>Thomas:<BR><BR>I can send you a larger scan if desired.<BR><BR>Thanks again, Patrick

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Posted By: <b>Hankron</b><p>In the land of the blind, the one-eyed man is king

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Posted By: <b>runscott</b><p>The problem is finding another one-eyed man to see things the way you do.

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Posted By: <b>runscott</b><p>Post head-shots of each player in your photo, right next to previously existing photos of the same player. I have done this before and it really helps others see your point.

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Posted By: <b>Art M.</b><p>Very interesting information regarding the T206 cards and identification of Harry Camnitz. I have always thought that one of the three Camnitz cards looked a little different than the other two.<BR>If I understood the original posting correctly, here is what I would believe is the correct identification on the T206 and T205 Camnitz cards:<BR><BR><img src="http://members.aol.com/rebelsart2000/camnitz.jpg">

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Posted By: <b>Eric Angyal</b><p>It appears that the T-205 and the T-206 arms folded at chest are one player, and the T-206 hands over head and the T-206 side view are another player (I dont, however, know who is who).<BR><BR>Eric

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Posted By: <b>jay behrens</b><p>My thoughts are the same as Eric's. 2 and 4 look like the same player while 1 and 3 look like another.<BR><BR>Jay

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Posted By: <b>Craig D.</b><p>I think I agree more with Art's interpretation. While T206 art isn't exactly a science, it is worthwhile noting that the "arms above head" pose of Camnitz is the same one used in the T3 Turkey Red set. I presume that the T3 card is Howie and not his lesser known brother. Also, if there are three Camnitz cards becuase Howie insisted on his brother being on one, I doubt they would give him two poses and give Howie only one. Just my two cents.

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Posted By: <b>Thomas J Marshall</b><p>While i didnt want to divulge too much info before the site was up it would be unfair not to with all the speculation going on.<BR><BR>According to Lew Lipsets encyclopedia of cards,2 Camnitz poses were part of the 3rd series,arms above head and arms at side.The letter to Howie is dated Dec 1909,long after the printing of the first series card started so its safe to say the arms folded pose isnt him.As the last person pointed out,the arms above head pose was used for the T3 card so i assume the arms at side pose is Harry(Thank you to Art M for providing the scans,and labeling them which i now feel is correct)<BR><BR>Ive been trying to get more info about Harry and possibly a picture that would match the card that is him but with such a short major league career photos and info of him are few and far between.Even the family i talked to doesnt have period photos of him(pre-1940) which could help identify him better.I hope that also answers Patricks question which unfortunately means i dont have an answer for you.<BR><BR>My initial feelings were that the arms above head picture was Harry just based on the weight/height figures for the 2 and appearance of the players on the card.Howie was listed as 4 inches shorter but 1 lb more during his career and the player with the arms at the side looks more compact,but unless they mistakenly used a picture of Harry for the T3 that theory would make no sense.<BR><BR>Hope this helps out.Thomas J Marshall

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Posted By: <b>Julie</b><p>....... <img src="/images/happy.gif" height=14 width=14>

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Posted By: <b>Brian Weisner</b><p><BR> I enjoy posting pictures just as much as Julie and Leon, so here's a nice T3 of one of the Caminitz brothers&gt;<img src="http://www.network54.com/Realm/tmp/1074965946.JPG">

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Posted By: <b>Brian Weisner</b><p><BR> This closeup might help ........... <img src="http://www.network54.com/Realm/tmp/1074966379.JPG">

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Posted By: <b>Brian Weisner</b><p><BR> OK I'm trying to top David for most post on a thread.....<img src="http://www.network54.com/Realm/tmp/1074967101.JPG"> <img src="http://www.network54.com/Realm/tmp/1074966379.JPG">

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Posted By: <b>Julie</b><p>........