The 'Old Judge Proofs'

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Posted By: <b>Hankron&nbsp; </b><p>I was recently asked to and did an in-person examination of a small number of those Old Judge Proofs. The ones I looked at were modern creations and, for fakes, highest quality and elaborate.<BR><BR>I won't label as authentic any Old Judge or closely-related c. 1800s proof or original art without examining it in person.

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Posted By: <b>runscott</b><p>Some collectors don't realize the financial incentive for creating modern forgeries. Leon and I were almost duped by an ebayer selling Old Judge "proof" tintypes a few years ago. Actually, we put bids in but there happened to be a bigger fool out there.<BR><BR>There were two tintypes shown in "Cold Mountain" (nice portraits of the two stars) and I noticed in the credits that these were actually modern tintypes - they were excellent examples.

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Posted By: <b>Jay Miller</b><p>David--What did these proofs look like? Were they actual Old Judge proofs or were they proofs of Old Judge like cards, similar to what Terry Knouse listed on ebay a few weeks ago? Can you post scans?

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Posted By: <b>Hankron</b><p>Substantive information and details will available in the near future. My regular computer is in the shop, so I can't update my site for a short while.<BR><BR>MastroNet's Kevin Struss and I discussed this and he's knowledgeable about the issue and specific charectoristics. If you caught him at a card show I'm sure he could look at one of these items and offer a significant opinion. If there was a significant issue involving a particular high end item, he might be able to pass it along to me.<BR><BR>To note, I'm an independant photo/print historian who does my reasearch out of my own pocket, and it's far from my hearts desire to set up an by-mail authentication/LOA shop in my basement ('Cycleback tamper evident hologram with matching numbers!'). So, while I likely will examine one or two from folks I know, I would only do widespread examination through at the behest of a organization.

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Posted By: <b>Tom Boblitt</b><p>along with about 6-7 others. They are all on period mounts from indepent photographers with most, if not all, having some type etching on the negative about 'Goodwin and Co' while not having the OJ Mount. While not an expert, I know them to be real and from the period. Were the ones you looked at David mounted on greyish mattboard with squared photos and glue seeping out around the edges. Very good photo quality? Just wondering. I know Terry Knouse, at one time, had MANY of the glass negatives used for the OJ cabinets and I could see, if in the wrong hands, where someone could try to pull something off.

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Posted By: <b>Tom Boblitt</b><p><img src="http://www.network54.com/Realm/tmp/1074055444.JPG">

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Posted By: <b>Hankron</b><p>Tom, after I get my computer own back (actually, about 95 percent of it is sitting on a desk here, with the other about 5 percent somewhere in Texas I've been told), I will provide substantive information on the subject.<BR><BR>I'm a beleiver that the best way to identify fakes on a consistant basis is by knowing how to identify what is genuine. Luckily, there are specific qualities that help identify examples as genuine. This includes straight foreward details that the collector can see with the naked eye or with a normal household magnifying glass. <BR><BR>But first that computer part must return from its vacation, as all my graphics and web programs are on the listless computer on not this borrowed one.<BR>

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Posted By: <b>Hankron</b><p>Lastly, I won't provide images of the ones I looked at. I didn't take pictures of them and, as I don't own them, it wouldn't be my place to post them anyway .... It may be unfathomable to some, but I didn't even look to see who were the players (It's a Zen thing)-- though I was told afterwards that one of the players doesn't have a corresponding N173 OJ Cabinet.<BR><BR>Just visit my website some time next week or so. Light refreshments will be provided, please remove your shoes at the door and don't tap on the fish tank.

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Posted By: <b>jay behrens</b><p>I'll leave the fish alone, but can I feed that overgrown ghetto rat some cheese?<BR><BR>Jay

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Posted By: <b>Hankron</b><p>It is important to me to add that I don't want people who innocently bought and sold what turns out to be a fake to feel overly bad or feel that their good reputation might be ruined. While refunds may be needed in certain circumstances, it appears that even a number of experienced folks have been fooled by these. I personally and sincerly will hold no hard feelings to those who made an honest and often understandable mistake, and I hope that others will feel the same way. Everyone makes mistakes, but the only real mistake is not trying to learn from your mistakes.