Old Judge "Proofs" [Archive] - Net54baseball.com Forums

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12-10-2003, 08:32 PM

Posted By: runscott  I know this has been discussed before, but since someone is attempting to sell a couple of these, maybe it's a good time to re-hash the history of these things. <a href="http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=2772281926&category=31719" target=_new>http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=2772281926&category=31719</a>

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12-10-2003, 09:09 PM

Posted By: HankronAs far as the photos being offered in the eBay auction you linked, I would have to seem them in person to give a definitive opinion as to whether or not they are original ... The legitimate proofs that have come on the market so far have cabinet cards .... There are those strange 'Old Judge' tintypes that appear from time to time. I don't know exactly what was their reason for being, but they are generally considered (and probably legitimately so) as vintage.

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12-10-2003, 09:20 PM

Posted By: HankronPerhaps others have, but I've never seen Old Judge photos larger than cabinet size and there wasn't such a thing as extra thick albumen photo paper back in the Old Judge era. Pretty much, there was one type of albumen paper for everyone, King or pauper, and it was as thin as a gnat's hide ... But, again, I would want to see the photos in person.

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12-10-2003, 09:24 PM

Posted By: kevinThe Old Judge Tintypes are not vintage, they are fantasy pieces from the 1980s or early 1990s.

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12-11-2003, 06:25 AM

Posted By: Jay MillerScott--Most of the Old Judge proof material originated from a fellow in Vermont who had a relative who worked for Goodwin & Co. There was a bunch of stuff that came out about 7 years ago including a group of glass plate negatives and the proofs. Doran is the most common subject; I have a display piece with six different Doran poses all of the same size as the ebay piece. They are mounted on a black background and framed in a period frame. The images at that time sold for about $500 a piece. The bottom line is that I believe that the items are legitimate, albeit overpriced. BTW, the claim that there is no Doran cabinet is incorrect. Superior auctions had one in an auction about a year and a half ago(with a proof in the same lot) which never reached its minimum.

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12-11-2003, 07:52 AM

Posted By: ramramon the tintypes. I had one a few years ago before returning it. It was not an original tintype. Different "tin" material and processing than an original tintype.

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12-11-2003, 08:14 AM

Posted By: runscottYour explanation is not what I understood at all. My understanding was that a bunch of the negatives had been bought and modern "proofs" had been made from them, both tintype and other, some released slowly on ebay with auctions ending early and sales held off-line. Leon and I were almost the victims of one of these deals 2-3 years ago.

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12-11-2003, 09:09 AM

Posted By: ramramthe "fantasy" tintype that I ran across had a slight greenish or goldish tint to it. Other faked tintypes of indians, etc. that I have seen over the years had this same appearance. That might be something common that might raise a red flag. Has anyone else noticed this phenomenom?

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12-11-2003, 11:14 AM

Posted By: HankronI must admit that I have never seen in person one of these Old Judge tintypes, so I duly retract my authenticity opinion until further notice-- which should be interpreted neither as a yae or a nae, but that I should have refrained from offering an opinion in the first place.

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12-11-2003, 02:48 PM

Posted By: PrewarsportsFirst of all these items are real. If you bother to read my item discription you will see that everything I sell is guaranteed authentic. They ARE Proofs, and are not modern photographic reproductions. I never once claimed they were Leonardo DiVinci masterpieces, but that they were uncatalogued. Show me a price guide with a Doran N173 listed and I will change my item discription. Last, Please e mail me with anything you have relating to an N173 cabinet for $500. Jay stating that these are overpriced is an completely baseless comment from someone who should know better. Anyone should know that stuff relating to Old Judge's is completely subjective in price (Wasn't it a common named Gibson that you paid $3500 for in beat up shape Jay). Even if he was rare, it just shows the subjectivity of Old Judge prices. A common N173 is worth $1200 in good shape, so why would a proof who is uncatalogued from a rare team and in great shape not be worth that? It is nicer than the N173 White I am selling that Jay offered me $650 two days ago. Ask Terry Knouse what he received at the National 5 years ago for similar items in worse condition of different players. $1200 each, for five of them! Even if the market has remained constant, which we all know Old Judge's have not, then they are correctly prices based on the market.

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12-12-2003, 06:09 AM

Posted By: Peter ThomasI think Jay's point was that items similar to these sold for $500 about 7 years ago; and that he felt that these items were good, but that $2500 was too high - by how much I don't know.

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12-12-2003, 06:53 AM

Posted By: Jay MillerThere is a big difference between uncataloged and unknown. If Doran is still uncataloged as an N173 it means that Bob Lemke has missed it. The card appeared in a Superior Auction catalog about 18 months ago. Some 19th century issues, like N172s, have been well researched and their catalog listings are fairly complete. Some other 19th century issues like N173s and small Gypsy Queens have only had cursory cataloging efforts. A few years ago I tried to start collecting Gypsy Queens. After a while I checked the catalog and found that about 40% of the cards that I had were unlisted. As to value, like beauty it is in the eye of the beholder. I would prefer that these items were as highly valued as possible; I own several. However, I don't believe that they should that expensive.