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08-31-2003, 10:55 AM

Posted By: LeonI thought a lot of groups went high for what they were. Some of the more generic ones just did ok....overall the prices looked fairly strong to me.....I didn't really win anything....will be getting a card from a group someone else one....that's about it. I do have some concerns about all of those trimmed and altered cards being sold. Hopefully they will always be described that way.(right?)...and I am fully aware of the fact that some, if not a lot of them, might not be tainted, that were described that way....(from one of the grading companies via the descriptions of them).....regards all

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08-31-2003, 12:00 PM

Posted By: halleygatorI know one card that went for more than it should have. Good news - it went to me. Bad news - it mysteriously worked its way all the way up to my max bid after the auction was extended. Hmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmm??? Surely Mastro wouldn't do something like that, would they?

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08-31-2003, 12:00 PM

Posted By: Ryan ChristoffThis would be the perfect opportunity for one of the grading companies to take the 1st step in authenticating trimmed cards and slabbing them with a clearly marked "TRIMMED" or "RE-COLORED" or whatever label. It just doesn't seem that rejecting cards as trimmed does the hobby any good as those cards are then back out into the market and likely re-sold as unaltered by one of the many unscrupulous sellers out there. If the grading companies did slab altered cards and label them properly, then a ton of altered cards would at least not be sold as legit. The cards aren't worthless just because they are altered. I believe there would still be a market for slabbed altered cards. -Ryan P.S. I realize that some companies will "authenticate" bigger ticket cards occasionally, but not as a standard practice. Plus, the label only says "authentic" as opposed to specifically mentioning the alteration.

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08-31-2003, 12:11 PM

Posted By: runscottBut the incentive will still be there for unscrupulous people to alter high-$ cards in an attempt to get them into the "clean" holder, so you would end up with both types of slabs containing altered cards. This might also create even more of a mirage that cards in "clean" holders were indeed clean.

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08-31-2003, 12:23 PM

Posted By: HankronI follow all the areas, incluing non sport, and thought in general the pricing was very strong, and often a good percentage higher than in earlier auctions. It seems to me that MastroNet is attracting a wider audience. Sometimes the pricing reminded me of the Halper auction, if you know what I mean. But there were still fair deals, if not steals, out there. I thought to myself, "Who wants to pay $30,000 for a pile of altered cards?"

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08-31-2003, 12:46 PM

Posted By: HankronIn response to Hal, the 'extended' happens to all lots simultaniously. So if one lot is open due the 10 minute rule (or whatever it is), all lots stay open late. Also, this late hours extended happens in all auctions. A large percentage of lots are extended even though there isn't any extra bidding in them. In response to Ryan, I agree that some sort of holdering would be a positive and may even be profitable for the owner of the cards. This could even include the winner putting the cards in his/her own personally designed holder. I think many collectors would find desirable to own a good looking if altered Ty Cob T206 or T205 Mathewson if presented in a nice and correctly labeled holder. Also, there can be effective security measures to help prevent the false reholdering of the cards.

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08-31-2003, 01:02 PM

Posted By: HankronOne last point. First, I am assuming that the winner of the T206s was honest, and may simply be a collector who doesn't mine altered cards (perhaps he also collects movie posters which are commonly restored). However, it should not be a great concern about these cards stealthly infultrating the hobby, as learned collectors should not have a problem. First, the alterations can be detected by the educated collector. Second, even if a card is offered in a PRO holder-- who here is buying PRO cards? Third, if the card is deceptively offered not in a holder, who here is buying highest grade unholdered T205 Christy Mathewsons from a dealer they don't know or have previously heard of? The people who would get hurt, are the people who buy PRO cards or the unholdered 'Mint' 1952 Topps Mickey Mantle that, for some reason, sells for a price 1/20th of PSA 9 Mantle.

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08-31-2003, 01:37 PM

Posted By: HankronMy second last point. While it will far from solve everything and won't work cleanly all the time (800 1970 Topps low # commons or "I can't remember, I got these with I was seven"), I do not think it would be a bad thing for graders to require the disclosure of the provenance of the card, if even only as a formality. Provenance can be as simple as, "I bought this from 2003 MastroNet auction, lot#3000" or "I bought this autograph directly from Mike Gutierrez and here's a copy of my receipt." If you took a Salvador Dali to Albert Field, the most famous expert on Dali in the world, he would require you to disclose where you go it. If you took took an Andy Warhol screenprint to have it authenticated by his estate, they would have you document where you got it-- and if you refused to tell them, they wouldn't look at the print. Naturally, accurate and substantial documentation of provenance doesn't substitute for proper examination, but it does facilitate a better and more assured opinion. Proper examination takes into consideration all relevant information concerning the item, and provenance is always important information.

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09-01-2003, 09:25 AM

Posted By: halleygatorHankron, I know the extended thing was for all the cards, and I am cool with that as it was expected. I was just surprised that nobody would bid right before the end of the auction ... but a lot of bids came out of nowhere in the extended session. I talked to Kevin Struss at Mastro, and I have no beef with them. I am sure they run a clean ship -- I was just venting. <img src="/images/happy.gif" height=14 width=14>

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09-05-2003, 09:50 PM

Posted By: TBobif some of those trimmed and altered cards don't end up in PSA holders. Everyone assumes they will be sold on ebay in PRO holders but depending on who sends them in, they may make it to ebay in PSA holders. Just watch....

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09-05-2003, 10:51 PM

Posted By: petecldConsidering the money that was spent on those trimmed cards it isn't going to be worth going the PRO route. But get just 10% of them into PSA holders. . . .

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09-06-2003, 10:08 AM

Posted By: botnPete, That would be a good day in Newport Beach, CA if the percentage were that small. Greg

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09-06-2003, 11:19 AM

Posted By: AnonymousIt appears that PSA is starting to do as Ryan Christoff suggested -- here's an example that was discussed on the PSA board ('52 Mantle) <a href="http://forums.collectors.com/messageview.cfm?catid=37&threadid=215112" target=_new>http://forums.collectors.com/messageview.cfm?catid=37&threadid=215112</a> I've never seen anything describing this service, so I'm not sure how it actually works, but... And, hello all, I've been lurking for a while and decided to jump in and post. I'm a modern collector by your standards (50's and 60's) but have always been fascinated by pre-war issues. Scott

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09-06-2003, 11:22 AM

Posted By: srs1athat was me above, still learning