A couple of nagging N172 Old Judge questions [Archive]

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08-15-2003, 11:12 PM

Posted By: Adam J. Baxter PINK N172s: I've seen many sellers offer pink tinted N172s as being rare or scarce variations due to the color. I was always under the impression that OJ's became pink due to the progressive deterioration of the photograph over time? If that is the case, should they be considered a variation at all? Frankly, it doesn't matter to me whther they're pink or not, as I generally collect mid to low grade examples anyhow, but I don't understand why a card that is technically damaged should have premium attached to it. And..... Uneven borders: I've noticed that many N172's,both low and high grade, will have a slightly uneven or slanted cut to the left side along the border. Usually the cut slants inward as it extends to the bottom. Is this typical of all N172s? Or is it confined only to examples from a particular year or style/series? Regards, Adam

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08-16-2003, 07:47 AM

Posted By: Jay MillerAdam--My view on the pinkish coloration is that it was a problem in the development process. I only remember seeing it in 1889 and 1890 cards. It isn't just pink that shows up; I've seen purple (which actually looks really nice) coloration on sharp pictures unlike the faded pink look. Oftentimes the 1890 cards have a brownish pink light photo. I've always thought of these as negatives which reduce the appearance and thus the value of the card. They certainly are not a positive. I believe that grading companies should ding cards with less attractive photos due to these problems. As to angle cuts I've seen them in all directions. Again, these are a negative but, for me anyway, not as significant as a pink photo.

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08-16-2003, 11:01 AM

Posted By: Adam J. BaxterI thought that was the case regarding the pink color. I believe I had seen something about this being common in the 1889s and 90s before, but I was puzzled because I've seen people offer them as scarcer versions, which didn't seem right to me. The angular cuts also caught my eye because I've noticed it on the side borders fairly frequently in. Thanks for clearing that up for me. <img src="/images/happy.gif" height=14 width=14>

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08-16-2003, 11:59 AM

Posted By: HankronThe different colored Old Judges may be legitimate and intentional variations. During the period of the Old Judges photographers invented a way to add colored dye to the albumen photographic process (meaning that they could not do this before). The color was of pink was the most commonly used as chemically it worked best. Realize that photography is a delicate, chemical process, and it's was dicey situation adding dyes or other stuff to the chemical equation. Whether or not it is a legitimate variation (I tend to beleive that it is), from what I have seen the pink Old Judges were not a great succsess as the images are usually underdeveloped.

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08-16-2003, 12:26 PM

Posted By: HankronI wish to point out that Jay is the resident expert on Old Judges. If he firmly beleives that the pink in the Old Judged was caused by some form of deteoration/aging, I give his opinion due weight and respect.

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08-16-2003, 12:29 PM

Posted By: Jay MillerDave--That's interesting. Do you know anything about the purple tinged cards? The purple color seems not to alter the pictures quality. In fact, it seems to enhance it if that is possible. The other question I would have is why do certain pinkish cards only show a slight deterioration of the photo clarity while with others the image is almost completely lost. Does this represent Goodwin experimenting with different dye mixtures? If so, why did the company issue the unsuccessful tests? As to whether these are variations I guess that depends on one's defination of a variation. Since each Old Judge card was a seperate photo cut from a seperate sheet almost every card is different from every other card in some small (and sometimes not so small) way. I rarely would consider cards of the same player from the same year with the same Goodwin advertising as being different variations but in fact there are often non-trivial differences between these cards. If you start adding in tint then you'll need a Manhattan yellow pages sized book to list them all. At least I think we all agree that the pink tinged cards are of inferior photo quality and, as such, to most collectors less desireable.

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08-16-2003, 12:57 PM

Posted By: Adam J. BaxterOf the few N172s that I have that are pink or pink toned, many are slightly out of focus and all of them exhibit some degree of fading to the image. The one exception is an 1889 style Glasscock that I recently picked up. The Glasscock is slightly out of focus or a bit blurry. The picture,however, does not appear faded and the pink color is dark and uniform throughout the front of the card, which would support with your theory that Goodwin may have experimented with dyes at some point. I'm sure that experimentation is certainly not out of the realm of possibility. Efforts to increase sales or stave off any potential competition, would definitely encourage a company like Goodwin to tinker around these cards.

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08-16-2003, 01:13 PM

Posted By: HankronThe photographers could use a variety of colors, including yellow, green, red and purple. When dyes were used, pink was the most common color. Such use of dyes on any albumen photograph is rare. It's possible that the use of color dyes contributed to the deterioration of the images. The rule of unintended consquences. The photographers could not have predicted, or perhaps even cared, how the addition of dyes would effect the photograph 10, 20, 100 years after. Realize that the Old Judges and such were not originally sepia. The sepia is entirely due to the aging.

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08-16-2003, 07:18 PM

Posted By: juliea prehistoric squirrel, missing one wing. Great picture, though.

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08-16-2003, 09:02 PM

Posted By: John(z28jd)To get back on subject.....I dont have any pink old judges but just from a looks standpoint,they arent attractive and shouldnt command any premium and like someone said diminishes the value in my eyes.Even if they were done purposely as David suggested they couldve been,i wouldnt add any value,or collect them for that matter.I have over 50 old judges and have stayed away from pink ones.

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08-17-2003, 12:14 PM

Posted By: Tom L.For the experts out there: The quality of the 1890 PL and NL cards all appear to be inferior to their predecessors. The card fronts appear much more toned, and the cards overall seem to be more fragile and sustain greater damage. Is that due to the printing process, the type of photo paper, the composition of cardboard backing, or a combination of all of these? Thanks, Tom

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08-17-2003, 01:00 PM

Posted By: HankronI concure with John. While variations are neat, a large portion of the value of a photo is based on the quality of the image-- whether you're dealing with Old Judges or Greta Garbo photos (I collect Garbo photos). While I don't collect Old Judges, I would never pay big bucks for a photo with a underdeveloped, out of focus or just plain ugly-- even if it shows Joe Jackson in ChiSox uniform. From an investment standpoint, the quality of the image is essential. Remember, when you turn to resell it, the next guy (or gal) is going to say, "but the image is awfuly light." Having said that, if I were an advanced collector of Old Judges, I would think it cool if not essential to get an example (if inexpensive example) of a pink card along with any other colors available. Consider them type cards.

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08-17-2003, 01:17 PM

Posted By: HankronAs someone who specializes in all forms of photography from all eras, this is my buying/investing tip. Even if it pictures the 1869 Cincinnati Red Stockings or Bronco Nagurski in rookie year, I never pay big bucks (meaning big bucks) for a photograph that has major problems with the image. I'm not talking about a crease or two, foxing or some soiling. I'm talking about when the image is out of focus or way underdeveloped. When you turn to resell a photograph you paid lots for, you want to be saying how beautiful and wonderful it is and not spending your time explaing away its image defects. This is particularly true because advanced collectors of photographs focus on the image as much if not more as I do. In my experience, the quality of the image alone can raise the price of a Bela Lugosi or Willie Mays photo several times over.