Old Judge accuracy?

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Posted By: <b>Jeff S</b><p>I am currently reading the SABR publication "How to Do Baseball Research" and came across the following tidbit:<BR><BR>"in 1991...various encyclopedias listed pitcher Harry Gruber ... as throwing with his left hand. However, examination of a photo of Gruber from an N-172 Old Judge cabinet card clearly shows the nineteenth-century hurler to be a right-hander. ...various encyclopedias made the change..."<BR><BR>Besides the fact that an Old Judge cabinet is an N173, are Old Judge photos to be trusted? I mean, photographers probably had to make the players stand in a throwing position for minutes at a time--and the shot was certainly not part of any real-time pitching motion, like a modern-day card would be. I don't trust my Brouthers cards to give me a picture of how Big Dan really clubbed those home runs, and I'm not willing to bet that Whitney had a dog. It seems like really flimsy evidence on which to base such a claim.<BR><BR>What do you think?

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Posted By: <b>Hankron</b><p>I don't follow the Old Judges as closely as many here. Offhand, I would think the player would pose using his correct arm. But, as you noted, they were staged poses with stuff like balls hanging by strings, rugs posing as grass and paper plates posing as bases, so you never know. Who knows, maybe the card is a 'UER Reverse Negative', though I would think that's unlikely.

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Posted By: <b>MW</b><p>Whitney probably had a dog but you might be right about your other hypothesis -- it would not have been unfathomable for a camera operator to tell a batter or pitcher to "turn toward the light" or to otherwise change his "natural" pose so as to acquiesce the photographer and his props.

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Posted By: <b>Kevin Cummings</b><p>The Old Judge cards most likely portray the players in their natural positions. Since, I think, there is a card of righty-hitting King Kelly batting lefty, I suppose the possibility does exist that the players could have been posed by the photographer in an unnatural position for some reason. <BR><BR>Not unlike some well-known modern-day situations, the possibility also exists that the players posed unnaturally on their own to play a trick on the photographer.<BR><BR>I find some of the poses in the Old Judge set to be so awkward or odd that they can certainly be ambiguous. The card I own of John Weyhing could certainly make you believe that the supposed lefty pitcher was a right-hander.

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Posted By: <b>Jay Miller</b><p>Jeff---Interesting question. Looking at the listing of Gruber poses he has two poses where he is in a pitching motion(I am not counting hands at chest). In both of those poses he is delivering as a righty. I would guess that it is less likely that both would be posed "wrong". <BR>As to Whitney with dog, legend has it that inclusion of the dog in the photo was meant to be a joke. The dog was an image of faithfulness at the time and Whitney was the type of player who jumped from team to team. Thus, the contrast was the humor. <BR>The classic joke card was McGreachery-Manager Indianapolis. There was no McGreachery who ever managed Indianapolis. The photo is that of Deacon White. The card, which as far as I know is unique, is pictured in Lew's Encyclopedia of Baseball Cards.

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Posted By: <b>Julie Vognar</b><p>but maybe it was boredom, light, or humor.<BR><BR>Interesting about the dog! certainly is a friendly little cuss; I'd always assumed it belonged to the player. Anyone know about McGuire's and Giambi's dogs on same cover?

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Posted By: <b>Julie Vognar</b><p>...

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Posted By: <b>Hankron</b><p>I think falsely batting as a switch hitter is one thing, as you can look fairly normal posing from the wrong side. However, I would think that the normal pitcher would not want to pose throwing with his correct arm. This is for the same reason we don't throw with our weak arms when there's a crowd wathing. Far worse than the ball not going far or being inaccurate, you might 'look like a girl.' I doubt that someone like Amos Ruse or Chas. Radbourne would take a chance on that. I'm sure Hoss considered himself a big man, and wanted to make sure that all those Old Judge smokers knew it too.

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Posted By: <b>Hankron</b><p>&lt;&lt; would not want to pose throwing with his correct arm &gt;&gt;<BR><BR>CORRECTION: would not want to pose throwing with his INCORRECT arm??<BR><BR>(Yes, I also know mispelled Rusie. Get off my back, Elliot)

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Posted By: <b>Hankron</b><p>Before anyone beats me to the punch: I think Radbourne might have pitched both lefty and right, so he may have not been the best example to use.<BR>

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Posted By: <b>Julie Vognar</b><p>...

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Posted By: <b>runscott</b><p>When photographing French people I always ask them to say "fromage" so that their mouths will look natural in the final print.