Not defending Koos or the Mantle, but- [Archive]

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07-31-2002, 11:33 AM

Posted By: Harry  maybe there is a reason why the card is listed on eBay without the proper description. Maybe there is some sort of lawsuit going on and they are trying to figure out the value of an UNaltered PRO 8 Mantle. Maybe the reserve is $1,000,000 and there is no chance that anyone is going to get stuck with the card. After all, the bidding is over $8,000 and if Koos really wanted to get rid of it then I would have thought $8,000 would have certainly met his reserve. If Koos really wanted to pass the card off on an unsuspecting buyer then he could have someone else sell the card for him so that he did not tarnish his reputation. I do not know the story with this particular card, but something is just not adding up. I have a feeling that there is more here than meets the eye.

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07-31-2002, 11:50 AM

Posted By: BruesoI was one of the bidders (now up to 24) who genuinely was bidding on this card and found out later it was a bogus auction someone was just conducting so they could get a value on it for it for a lawsuit, I'd be pretty p.o.ed. Of course, we have no way of knowing how many of the 24 are genuine, since the "private auction" is being used to protect the "integrety" of the auction.

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07-31-2002, 11:56 AM

Posted By: HarryI guess that I was speculating that something is not adding up here. I think that there is more to this situation than just Koos trying to pass the card on to someone else.

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07-31-2002, 12:49 PM

Posted By: DavidIf there was a lawsuit or similar and they were trying to determine value, one would think they would hire an appraiser. Offering it on eBay this way, would probably be neither accurate or legal. My opinion is that, if the card is altered, it should be reomoved from any holder, 'altered' should be written across the back in invisible ink, and it should forevermore be represented as altered in sale or show. If it isn't altered, then why the heck is it in a PRO Holder?

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07-31-2002, 01:37 PM

Posted By: Dr.Koos... posts displaying a whirlwind of common sense offering a possible explanation???? And one of the "bitch & moan" faction STILL has a problem with Harry's sensible and plausible theorey (as if nobody ever auctioned a card with a reserve that wasn't met...should I cite examples?) "Oh..(in the most meeley-mouthed sarcastic voice I'm capable of effecting)..I'm going to upset everybody bidding if someone doesn't win it and make the reserve, Heavens to Betsy". HEY Brueso..WAKE UP!!! If somebody WINS it..you'll complain, and now, given Harry's theorey, if someone DOESN'T win it..you've got a problem with THAT too, meanwhile it's MY $25.00 for the featured ad, not YOURS. And if I want to run the card with a MILLION dollar reserve, THAT'S my right as well. And if you can't deal with it, form a lynch mob. I'm sure that you and Scott would be good at that, given the sufficient strength of numbers behind you.

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07-31-2002, 02:34 PM

Posted By: BruesoYou just demonstrate more and more what a class act you are, Doc. Why don't you see whether the guys at Shop at Home can use another huckster- you seem equally as willing to prey on the uninformed- you know, the "unsuspecting dolts" out there.

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07-31-2002, 03:49 PM

Posted By: jay behrensto properly quote Don West, "You have to be stupid not to buy this." I just wonder if there is anyone that can force Doktor (I refuse to use the Koos part ebcuase it besmerches Jerry Koosman's good nickname) to make an apology like Don West had to after it was pointed out that he was the stupid one. Jay

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07-31-2002, 04:32 PM

Posted By: warshawlawThis guy has shown his character repeatedly over the last few days and has availed himself of all the scoundrels' tools that eBay furnishes. Let's just resolve not to do further business with him, and let's relegate his further views to the garbage can where his ethics already are. Given what we've seen here, perhaps this fine fellow should be banned from the board. And BTW, "Doc", don't bother to offer to kick my butt again or launch another misspelling-laden screed. In the words of the Bard, "methinks thou dost protest too much."

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07-31-2002, 09:19 PM

Posted By: Dr.Koos...and BTW, save your lies for defending your clients, unless you can you please point out where I threatened to "kick your butt"???? That's PURE BS. And wouldn't that suit you just fine, to have me BANNED from posting on the message Board, so you can levy your charges and bandy about my name without distraction and another side of the story.

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07-31-2002, 09:30 PM

Posted By: jay behrensyou would actually gain a small measure of respect here IF you were to amend your listing noting that card is altered/trimmed AND removing the private status of the auction. Jay

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08-01-2002, 12:33 AM

Posted By: Bruce MorelandI don't know Dr. Koos from Adam, but I think that people should leave him alone. He's auctioning a card. The reserve could very well be very high, which would make his position consistent. If the reserve is met, then feel free to howl at him for being a hypocrite. Until then it's not really anyone's business. I think that people should leave his auction alone unless they have real interest in the card. Remember that the real villains here are PRO, the grading service for those who professional grading is supposed to protect us against, and the guy who had the bright idea of having PRO grade that abortion, so he could sell it to someone who didn't understand that a PRO slab is no protection, rather, it is the opposite. bruce

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08-01-2002, 01:43 AM

Posted By: benge610..... but I think it's high time that MW and Julie weigh-in on the Shakespeare reference, so we can send this train wreck completely over the cliff and into the gully awaiting far, far below! I love this stuff! or maybe I just need to get some sleep, really bad. Party on, Bard. Ben.

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08-01-2002, 06:04 AM

Posted By: Dr.Koos...trying to FORCE the Devil into turning on the AC.

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08-01-2002, 08:01 AM

Posted By: SalDr. Koos ruin his reputation? That was a good one!!

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08-01-2002, 09:37 AM

Posted By: Brueso"Remember that the real villains here are PRO, the grading service for those who professional grading is supposed to protect us against, and the guy who had the bright idea of having PRO grade that abortion, so he could sell it to someone who didn't understand that a PRO slab is no protection, rather, it is the opposite." Bruce- I agree the person who had PRO slab the card was a villain, but frankly, I don't see any difference between what he did and what "Doctor" Koos now is doing. Even if he's trying to assess what the card would sell for given it's in a PRO holder, the results of that experiment are faulty. If you were buying the card and heard later that the seller said it was garbage and anyone who bought it was an unsuspecting dolt, would you be satisfied? And this "well, maybe he won't allow the sale to be completed" is crap, too. I don't care who the seller is- if you put something out there on E-bay, I think you should have to stick to it and sell it (unless you make a mistake like putting a reserve price down as a buy it now price). Koos has already demonstrated (bragged even) that he doesn't give a crap whether a "temporary" auction screws with anyone else's collecting action because he does what he does for his own benefit (that's right, Doc- they're "only rules")- but I am completely contemptuous of anyone who uses something like E-bay as a vehicle to get some attention for their product and then pull it before auction's close. How could a temporary auction screw with someone's budget? What if you have something like $8,000 and an auction like this pops up and you bid on it, then something else you are interested in pops up and it is going for the same amount- and you don't bid on the second because you've already bid on the first. Yeah, I don't expect Koos to give a crap about something like that because since he has been screwed over by someone else, he now feels he has free reign to screw over the next "unsuspecting dolt".

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08-01-2002, 09:57 AM

Posted By: Brueso"..... but I think it's high time that MW and Julie weigh-in on the Shakespeare reference, so we can send this train wreck completely over the cliff and into the gully awaiting far, far below!" How's this for an applicable quote: "What shall become of a man when he gains the world and loses his soul?"

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08-01-2002, 11:42 AM

Posted By: Dr.Koos...a RARE commodity in these related "hate" threads. What you fail to realize is that your words will fall on the same myopically deaf ears that mine do as well. This is 16th century "dipping chair" mentality. If I drown I'm innocent, and if I somehow manage to float, I'm guilty. The ability to descriminate and process information that is VITAL for forming intelligent opinions that YOU possess (called in some circles...rationality, sanity, or common sense), which you will soon realize by the responses to YOUR post, is NOT an ability shared by those that are unwarrantedly berating me. You would ASSUME that like yourself, someone SHOULD have the intelligence to arrive at simplistic concepts. Not so, when put into practice. Over 70% of those responding unfavorably to me either aren't reading an entire post before they mindlessly respond to it, or lack the friggin' (tm@ T-Bob) ability altogether to do so. It's quite a simple concept that both YOU and I understand without even having to give it a second thought: Fraud requires a victim. Someone that is de-frauded for there to be fraud. Without knowing the reserve, there is no way to determine whether I am even ATTEMPTING to defraud someone at this point in time. Yeah, I know, I've heard the BS..."I'm guilty of wasting some poor bidder's time and tying up his resources". What a crockfull! Over 50% of the time I bid on items that I was interested in winning the reserve was never acheived.

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08-01-2002, 12:09 PM

Posted By: Bruce Moreland"Even if he's trying to assess what the card would sell for given it's in a PRO holder, the results of that experiment are faulty. If you were buying the card and heard later that the seller said it was garbage and anyone who bought it was an unsuspecting dolt, would you be satisfied?" Since this would be a true statement, I wouldn't be that upset. All PRO cards have something wrong with them, it's axiomatic. Anyone who buys one is bottom fishing in a lake full of mercury and PCB's. Has anyone here ever bought a PRO card? Drop me an email and tell me so, and I'll call you a dolt. I'd do this as a favor to you, in order to give you some incentive not to ever to this again. "And this 'well, maybe he won't allow the sale to be completed' is crap, too. I don't care who the seller is- if you put something out there on E-bay, I think you should have to stick to it and sell it (unless you make a mistake like putting a reserve price down as a buy it now price)." I don't think there is a maybe here. For all I know, Dr. Koos is Satan's younger brother, but he has a blank slate with me. I don't have preconceived notions about the guy, so when I saw him go on about how it was evil to sell this card without any indication it was altered, and then I saw him auctioning the card with no reference to its being altered, rather than assuming that he was Satan's younger brother, I assumed that the reserve was infinity. His subsequent comments here have confirmed that assumption. If it says "reserve met" for any amount other than infinity, I'll join you in calling him a hypocrite. It's a test auction. I don't know why he's running it. It's not my business. I hope he gets the data he's trying to get. I hope that the people who read these words have enough maturity that they don't intentionally screw it up. Regarding this messing up anyone's buying plans because they need to have vast wads of cash ready to pay for this, they are all bidding on something in a PRO slab, which is STUPID, so anything that screws up this person's collecting experience without actually parting them from their money is probably a good thing. I'd rather have them tie up their money trying to win a bogus card that's not really for sale than have them actually win any number of bogus PRO cards that are for sale. This is much better than getting an email from someone who has read my professional grading page, and they tell me they've spent $2,000 on PRO stuff, and ask me if I think they got burned. This happens. It is totally not fun. For all we know, he's going to send email to all of his bidders, calling them dolts, educating them about how badly PRO bites. The sins being committed here by Dr. Koos are minimal. Worse sins are committed hourly on used car lots all across America. Worse sins are committed innumerable times every day on eBay. Everyone who sends me an EXMT card with a wrinkle is doing worse than this. Dr. Koos has a bunch of people following him around, all waving those little bats that they give out on "bat night" at baseball games. For all I know, he deserves to be followed around by this crowd, but I don't see that the crowd has much real reason to be enraged about this particular auction. bruce

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08-01-2002, 12:14 PM

Posted By: MWedited

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08-01-2002, 12:16 PM

Posted By: BruesoSince the DOC has made bids in the past where the reserve isn't acheived, therefore it shouldn't bother anyone else who is potentially committing funds to his auction if his reserve isn't achieved- you see, he may never have intended for it to be achieved at all. Why don't you just post a little addition to your auction, Doc, that "Bidders may be wasting their time". Oh- that's right- let the suckers learn, like you had to do, huh? Since you've been burned in the past, you have a blank check to burn anyone else, right?

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08-01-2002, 12:52 PM

Posted By: BruesoBruce- you're talking from the perspective of experience when you say anything PRO is probably crap. But to someone who doesn't have that experience- which is what Koos himself didn't have at one point and that's how he ended up with this piece of garbage- they see slab and they will probably think it's legit. Should we not care if a big money greenhorn gets burned because they've got big money? That's kind of what Koos is asking us to do- "the reserve hasn't been met, so no harm, no foul". I disagree- post legitimate auctions or don't waste anyone's time. Prior to the past week, I had no experience w/Koos either and thus no opinion- but his actions in even setting up such an auction particularly considering his prior grandstanding about what a saint he was for not passing the garbage he bought onto someone else, plus his insults to others here who DARED question his behavior- formed my opinion of him.

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08-01-2002, 12:54 PM

Posted By: Brueso...

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08-01-2002, 02:15 PM

Posted By: Bruce MorelandIt's not a big deal. People test the waters all the time. It's not against eBay policy. The "time wasting" aspect of it is trivial. I'm sure that many of us have bid on auctions where the reserve was not met, even though the amount we bid was very reasonable for the item in question. I've had this happened, and I was a little tweaked, but not enough that I'd write a letter to my congressman. I'm sure that many of us have bid on premium auctions where a hidden reserve wasn't met. None of this is a big deal. You are on this guy's case bacause of who he is, not because he's done anything particularly awful here. This started out as, "Dr. Koos is bring a hypocrite and trying to stick someone with a bad card!", and is now "Dr. Koos is wasting people's time with an auction with an impossible reserve!" The same tone is there, even though the charge has reduced to nothingness. Let's see: - He hasn't broken any eBay rules. - He hasn't broken any laws. - He hasn't shipped anyone garbage. - He hasn't given a buyer a hard time. Aren't there plenty of cases where people have done any or even all of the above, and aren't those the cases we should be outraged about? bruce

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08-01-2002, 02:29 PM

Posted By: Bruce MorelandI would bet a small amount of money that the reserve is higher than anyone could reach. I think this is a test auction. Regarding PRO, yes, I have some experience, and I have a certain amount of self control -- I will not buy any PRO graded card for any amount of money. Dr. Koos made a mistake and got nuked. People have accused him of trying to foist this off onto someone else, but I don't think that he is doing that. If he were doing that, it would make him a hypocrite. We will know when the auction ends. I am not saying that Dr. Koos is a nice guy. I have no idea if he's a nice guy or not, but this issue is not about whether or not he's a nice guy, is it? If that's all it's about, someone should just make a thread called "Dr. Koos is not a nice guy", and everyone should pile on him there. bruce

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08-01-2002, 02:31 PM

Posted By: Bruce Moreland...

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08-01-2002, 02:49 PM

Posted By: BruesoBruce, I'm probably as tired of talking about this as you are. But you're right- my annoyance with him did change from "he's sticking someone with a card" to "he's wasting people's time and potentially making them miss out on other legitimate auctions by keeping their financial resources committed to his auction". If YOU don't think that's worth mentioning- so be it, you and I disagree. Besides which YOU are taking it on faith that he doesn't intend to complete this auction- I start out giving people the benefit of the doubt, but his baloney has made me NOT do that in his case.

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08-01-2002, 03:26 PM

Posted By: CySomeone brought up the possibility that all Dr. Koos wants to do is get a feel for the market value of the card. But, from all of the discussion, this card is altered or misrepresented in one way or another. What if the good doctor has an extremely high reserve price that no one will meet, but then he will contact one, or more, of the eager bidders, and sell the card outright to one of them? By doing this, the good doctor will have sold an altered card for a substantial price and there is no ebay trail to follow him. Since this is a private auction, only he and the buyer would know about these shenanigans (I had to get the word shenanigans into one of my posts.) and Dr. Koos gets a substantial payment for an allegedly fraudulent card. Pretty slick, Dr. My two cents (nowhere near enough to bid on the Mickey Mantle gem!) Cy

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08-01-2002, 03:42 PM

Posted By: jay behrensI was just about to make this same exact post. This definately reeks of this type of scam. Jay

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08-01-2002, 04:26 PM

Posted By: Bruce MorelandIt is also possible that he is going to contact the high bidder, collect payment, fly to the guy's town, and kill him while he sleeps, in order to avoid sending the card. Same amount of evidence for both possibilities. It will be interesting to see if he tries to auction this again, described as altered. bruce

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08-01-2002, 05:03 PM

Posted By: jay behrensYour scenarino has never played out. At least not that I know of. However, the scenario proposed by Cy and myself has happened on numerous occassions and is a well know scam by those who have been around eBay long enough. And with the way feedback works now, there is no way to take someone that pulls this stunt. Jay

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08-01-2002, 06:57 PM

Posted By: CyThat's why I never sleep after ebay auctions! <img src="/images/happy.gif" height=14 width=14> Cy

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08-01-2002, 08:52 PM

Posted By: Kenny Colethat there are a lot of theories as to what is happening and not too much evidence to back any of them up. I don't know Dr. Koos either and, as stated earlier, he could be the devil's brother. Then again, maybe not. Some of his posts are rather vulgar, but I've read vulgar posts from others as well. In any event, the issue isn't whether or not he's a boy scout in terms of what he says. There seems to be a lynch mob mentality forming. Perhaps it is justified, but I personally think its a little early for that. Yes, he could be going to contact the high bidder who didn't meet the reserve and sell him the altered card. Yes, he could be up to many other nefarious schemes. Maybe he doesn't own the card at all and has been bitching about this purportedly altered PRO card for months just to get the Board in a huge uproar before he tells everyone that its a practical joke. The point is that there are many theories, and there really isn't much evidence to support any of them. Why not indulge in some small amount of trust? The auction will be over in a few days and he's said he'll tell everyone what's going on then. That doesn't seem too unreasonable to me. And, for those of you who truly feel exorcised by the thought that he might really try to foist this piece of crap off on some unsuspecting buyer, here's a thought: do something about it other than scream. Be the high bidder and then refuse to pay because the card is admittedly altered and that wasn't set forth in the description. Maybe I'm naive, but it seems to me that he would surely have some difficulty, even with ebay, if he tried to enforce a winning bid on a card which he had admitted to this board was altered and he hadn't put that in his description. Bottom line is, if he really wanted to screw a newbie, he is surely smart enough to figure out a better way to do it than this. Consequently, I have real problems believing that's whats going on. It's something else. Kenny Cole

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08-01-2002, 09:21 PM

Posted By: DavidMy problem is that I cannot think of a single good reason to be offering fakes in a public and international auction. Fakes do not belong in eBay or MastroNet or Leland's or Sotheby's, no matter what the circumstances. This is not what these places are for.

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08-01-2002, 09:31 PM

Posted By: MWedited

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08-01-2002, 09:33 PM

Posted By: DavidIf, in the upcoming auction catalog, MastroNet says, "We've randomly put some fakes and forgeries in this auction, for testing purposes only. Don't worry about it, bid as normal," there would be an uproar and justifiably so.

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08-01-2002, 09:34 PM

Posted By: runscottPSA rejected this Mantle as altered, and Koos himself considered it altered as well...though he now sings a different tune. As far as I know, no owner of that Wagner has admitted it was trimmed, nor has it been rejected as altered by another grading company. -------------------------------------------- no disclaimer - temporarily taking responsibility for my actions

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08-01-2002, 09:35 PM

Posted By: leonlI said I wasn't going to post about this but DARN it. I think there could be some other issues we don't know about, and not related to this subject, but that's another story. I will say that on the face of it I don't like there being non-full disclosure of facts in an auction. It is fraudulent in my opinion, HOWEVER there could be a motive here to find out the value of the card, as it is advertised. That way you could see what damages could be, possibly in a lawsuit, if someone had it sold to them that way. I am not saying I know this for sure as I definitely DO NOT. I will also say that I don't necessarily like private auctions, HOWEVER (I keep saying that) I have mentioned also that I understand them a little bit and about 90% of them are scams. The other 10% are not....19thCenturyonly, Scott Gaynor, and a few others use them and I do not doubt their integrity for a minute.....and if someone has 600 or so feedback, or whatever Doc has, they are usually very trustworthy....so I say for the time being we back off and see what happens.....in a short amount of time (about 100 Scooby shows as my 5 year old would say) we'll know.......who on this board has not been totally wrong and stuck their proverbial foot in there mouth before? Just some things to ponder.....regards all ps...I am not taking any side....except I will say keep the trash talk off the board, guys. thanks..

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08-01-2002, 09:39 PM

Posted By: DavidMichael, as I said, fakes don't belong in any auctions, especially when the seller knows them to be fake. This statement should not be construed as an opinion on the T206 Wagner. I've never seen the Wagner in person, but Doug promised I would get a look next time they auction it.

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08-01-2002, 09:42 PM

Posted By: jay behrensbut why does he have to establish a value for it as unaltered when all that needs to be done use the the price that he paid for the card since that is how he bought it. Jay

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08-01-2002, 09:45 PM

Posted By: runscottIf he wanted a value for a law-suit, in order to collect damages, wouldn't he need to mention it was altered? That way the value would be lower and he could point out the difference in court. What you are saying makes absolutely no sense - put the peace pipe down! What he is doing only makes sense for insurance fraud or to hose a non-suspecting bidder when the auction ends...or the alien space monkeys. -------------------------------------------- no disclaimer - temporarily taking responsibility for my actions

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08-01-2002, 09:46 PM

Posted By: DavidMichael, how is that not consitant with my statement? If the Wagner was trimmed, it should not have been and should not be auctioned until it is desscribed accurately. On this, I'm sure we both agree.

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08-01-2002, 11:12 PM

Posted By: AnonymousWe're all so fortunate to have you favor us with your wit! You know, when you finally find your rightful place at Shop at Home, the other guys may be put off by your fancy language at first- but eventually you'll all bond in your mutual pursuit of the same goal- the sale of sports collectibles with integrity, and the "education" of the unsuspecting dolts of the world! Your future is very very bright at Shop at Home- congratulations!

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08-01-2002, 11:34 PM

Posted By: MWedited

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08-01-2002, 11:38 PM

Posted By: MWedited

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08-01-2002, 11:40 PM

Posted By: MWYou're referring to the fake Ichiro bat they auctioned, right?

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08-02-2002, 03:19 AM

Posted By: BCDaniels I have 19 feedbacks !!!!!!!

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08-02-2002, 09:09 AM

Posted By: runscottMW - you know as well as anyone that I have almost no respect for PSA, but they are still considered one of the top two grading companies, along with SGC, by "Almost everyone". PRO is considered rubbish - Koos should have known that when he bought the card, but the fact is that he knows it now, and he also knows the history of the card. I agree with others that anyone who auctions the Wagner card should also mention that it is trimmed, if in fact they know that it is. I have asked repeatedly for someone to show me a picture of the "before trimming" Wagner, prior to its encapsulation, and though many have said such photos exist, not one of you experts has come up with one. But, as you know, I still feel certain it IS trimmed. But that's another debate. -------------------------------------------- no disclaimer - temporarily taking responsibility for my actions

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08-02-2002, 09:09 AM

Posted By: runscott...

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08-02-2002, 09:09 AM

Posted By: runscott...

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08-02-2002, 09:12 AM

Posted By: Bruesowas my post. I'm not being anonymous in this debate- I just forgot to type my name in. Meanwhile, I've wasted enough time talking about or talking to "Dr." Koos. My final position- I don't care if this IS a test auction for whatever reason. If you do intend to sell this card without making your feelings known to your bidders about its probable altered state, then you're being as dishonest as the ones who stuck you with the card. If you DON'T intend to sell and are only doing a test auction, then you're wasting other people's time and possibly screwing up their bidding on legitimate auctions. But oh yeah- who cares about other people as long as you accomplish your goals. For all your cloak and dagger about how you CAN'T talk about the REAL reason for the auction until its end, you seem to ignore that it's unlikely anyone who reads this board is a bidder on your card. If they were, they would have retracted their bids a long time ago. Good luck with yourself, Doc- you've certainly made a reputation for yourself here.

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08-02-2002, 09:14 AM

Posted By: runscottThis is what you do when backed in a corner. I have never contacted anyone's bidders prior to an auction ending. You're just tossing ideas up in the wind and hoping they fly. So you think everyone is "out to get you"? Newsflash: No one really cares that much about you.

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08-02-2002, 09:14 AM

Posted By: runscott...

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08-02-2002, 10:17 AM

Posted By: Kenny ColeHe's clearly out what he paid for it. However, I can see an argument to be made that he's out more. Assuming for the moment that it was the real deal and he bought it for less than it was worth with the intent to sell it, it can be argued that he is out his expected profit as well. Its that buy low, sell high thing that I just can't seem to get the knack of. What is that amount for that card if it was as originally represented? I don't know. However, I do know that you can't recover it if its a speculative amount. A test auction on ebay may well be an effort to find out what the public (yes, I know its a private auction) thinks this particular card is worth. It may be an attempt, admittedly unscientific, to quantify what he believes his damages to be. But it more than likely isn't fraud. Kenny Cole

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08-02-2002, 10:21 AM

Posted By: runscottHe paid what the public thought it was worth. Nothing has changed since then. -------------------------------------------- no disclaimer - temporarily taking responsibility for my actions

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08-02-2002, 10:29 AM

Posted By: Dr.Koos...values do change.

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08-02-2002, 10:31 AM

Posted By: Dr.Koos..please add Kenny's name to the list of those I've previously mentioned with the ability, usually taken for granted, of being able to think clearly.

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08-02-2002, 10:33 AM

Posted By: runscottIf someone doesn't disagree with you, then they are sane. -------------------------------------------- no disclaimer - temporarily taking responsibility for my actions

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08-02-2002, 10:35 AM

Posted By: runscott...so I can get up and not go to work tomorrow. Wait a minute, maybe I'll be a doctor tomorrow...yeah, that's the ticket. -------------------------------------------- no disclaimer - temporarily taking responsibility for my actions

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08-02-2002, 10:36 AM

Posted By: vorthian<< A test auction on ebay may well be an effort to find out what the public (yes, I know its a private auction) thinks this particular card is worth. >> Maybe a more "accurate" read would be attained if he made his feedback public while not having a private auction.

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08-02-2002, 10:40 AM

Posted By: leonlIf he bought it, as he IS advertising it , then he could potentially say, that is what the value is since that is the way I bought it (albeit fraudelently)...and have more of a "market analysis" than just what HE paid for it....as most know a single auction, should not, but frequently does, set a market rate for near future sales...who on the board has not used the argument to buy a card cheaper by saying they saw a similar one cheaper....maybe Doc is trying to determine a market/legality issue...?? not sure but it could be possible....and the guy does have 605 positive feedbacks, from 372 unique users, with only 1 negative....if nothing else I will say try keeping 372 customers happy, each a few times, with only 1 pissed off person....and probably retalitory in that one.....that is just an overwhelming stat......and BTW , the darn card is at $10,100 as we speak....regards all

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08-02-2002, 10:55 AM

Posted By: Dr.Koos..Runscott and Brueso (ANOTHER cerebral individual), two bodies devoid of their severed chicken-heads, would have run rumpscottian up and down all my past bidders and winners trying to induce the same brand of friggin' (tm@T-Bob) hysteria they are prone to. Steve, you have NO idea how embarrassed I am for even addressing them. While YOU & I have to grin and bear it, I'll be damned if I'm going to subject my past winners and bidders to a spam barrage detailing their constantly shifting charges and madcap theories. I don't understand it. There are Comedy clubs STARVING for their brand of slapstick entertainment. They should take this act on the road. EVERYBODY loves micro-encephalics (pinheads). ESPECIALLY in drag (hint, hint, "guys"), and their wasting their un-natural abilities here on ME. Having experience with "institutionalized" individuals, I've already seen this act.

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08-02-2002, 10:57 AM

Posted By: Kenny ColeDon't get peevish. I don't know the answers either. I am simply suggesting alternative possibilities that seem to make some degree of sense, at least to me. As far as my sanity goes, all of my fraternity brothers in college seemed to think that I was: A) a drunk; and B) insane. They were right about point A. Then I went to law school, learned to drink more and better liquor, became a lawyer, and proved their point about point B as well. As my wife so often (gently) points out, who but an insane person would pay outrageous sums of money for pictures of baseball players on pieces of cardboard? Kenny Cole

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08-02-2002, 10:59 AM

Posted By: Bruce MorelandAnything is possible. There are reserve auctions with un-met reserves every day. I think that the damages someone incurs from looking at an auction like this are too trivial to mention. And if someone is out shopping for PRO cards, anything that wastes their time is probably good for them, because it gives them more time to think about it and become less stupid. bruce

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08-02-2002, 12:16 PM

Posted By: Dr.Koos...many have said that the Mantle is restored, myself included (repeating what I read and was told and taking that verbatem), but nobody has come forward with "before" pictures, or even SECOND hand knowledge of what conservations were performed! Also, if there WERE at one time a "before" photocopy of the PSA 8 T206 Wagner, check the lineage of ownership, do you actually think that ANY facsimile of that card PRIOR to trimming would STILL be extant? NOT DESTROYED by one in the line of ownership, MANY moons ago?

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08-02-2002, 12:28 PM

Posted By: Dr.Koos..about ME??? Your obsession with me is as unhealthy as your denial of it. Come on Scott. What's REALLY troubling you, son? Confide in us, it's for your own good. There are Boards I can recommend that will help with your inadequacies, whatever they may be, jSut (tm@Rumpscottian spelling)let it out and take that first "Baby-step".

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08-02-2002, 12:42 PM

Posted By: runscott...since you actually made a card-related post a moment ago (good job). -------------------------------------------- no disclaimer - temporarily taking responsibility for my actions

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08-02-2002, 12:53 PM

Posted By: runscottI don't have an archive folder of "posts and emails to be used against board members in the future", so I have no problem with accepting this explanation. If you thought it was trimmed purely because others told you so, and you didn't believe it yourself, then there's nothing wrong with you now rejecting their opinions and putting the card forth on ebay as you have done (I know I will catch hell for saying that). I can accept your old posts about the card being garbage, as just more senseless blathering, kind of like the references to male body fluids and back-sides, etc. BTW - it doesn't seem normal to me that a man's imagination would constantly run in that direction unless there was a problem. If you truly are a doctor, you must know someone who could help you get your imagination going in a more healthy direction. And regarding the Wagner, I can't speak to the integrity of any of the prior owners, but I HAVE heard that photos were taken of the card when it was "larger". I would like to see those photos - perhaps they were destroyed, but perhaps computer images exist. I don't know. Koos and Bruce - I'm through discussing the Mantle. Anyone who buys a PRO card, especially a high-dollar one, is a total idiot anyway. Sell it, burn it, put it in an SGC holder (hahaha), whatever. -------------------------------------------- no disclaimer - temporarily taking responsibility for my actions

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08-02-2002, 01:12 PM

Posted By: Brian C DanielsNow why would a known restorator take before pictures? That is like going into the hous of a bank robber only to find servailance photos of all the banks recently robbed in the area! There is NO before photo! But you must have fogot that I informed you two years ago that I know where it came from....in addition, to imply it is not altered for certain is silly because why would Bill mastro want to loose money by listing the card ( if it were not ) as altered in one of his big auctions??? That would be silly..........to confirm it was/is altered no doubt it was sent to PSA just to confirm and no doubt came back rejected....it is done well which would give you a clue as to who altered it as only four guys in the country can do it well enough to get some stuff past the graders of any combination of graders ( PRO excluded because they graded my daughters "doodlings" which said " ROD ZABEW " on the bottom....lastly,your correct in stating the market has changed.....meaning the value.....it went down! When is the last time a high priced mantle went for large coin??? I have not seen or heard of one for some time.They won't sell well and the guys who own them are not selling now in a none "E" card depressed stock market. Mastro did not lie! The card is definately altered..I even worte you and told you exactly what was done to it.That is not even an issue. Frankly,if your trying to state that it has a high reserve to see what the market would bring ,that's fine I don't seeanything other than using e-bay as source of value info what else could you do but write everyone who ever bids on one,explain your situation and then ask them how much they think it's worth? It's easier just to post it to communicate with them I guess....just tell us what the RESERVE is? Isn't that also fair.......... it has some value heck for the right price it is still a conversation piece of sorts.

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08-02-2002, 03:03 PM

Posted By: jay behrensdid your wife marry you becuase she thought she could get free shoes? <img src="/images/wink.gif" height=14 width=14> Jay

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08-02-2002, 03:40 PM

Posted By: Dr.Koosoverwhelmingly positive feedback, 605-1, soon to be 605-0 once again as soon as Square Trade reverses the retailiatory negative from a RENEGGER, UNCONTESTED by him by NOT anwering any of Square Trade's communications asking for his side of the story, so important to you unless you desire to contact my past winners and bidders? What comments could I possibly be hiding? My feedback was 597-0 BEFORE the retaliatory negative, and MY FEEDBACK WAS ALREADY SHIELDED FOR THE PAST YEAR!!!! NOT recently. Face it! You're on a friggin' (tm@T-Bob) witch-hunt, nothing more. Your "humanitarian" efforts are as much a charade to shield personal shortcomings as they are unwarranted. Here...I'll prove it: Let's rate Runscott's performance! Who on this Board has his senseless prattle DISSUADED from bidding on the card? I'm sure that EVERYONE here was chomping at the bit to do bid-battling over it until Scott "Talked you out if it".

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08-02-2002, 03:48 PM

Posted By: runscott...magic mushrooms maybe?

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08-02-2002, 06:11 PM

Posted By: Brian C Danielsand you do not address issues one by noe as you should so to your defense of one of the statements above YES,PRO is bogus ,we all know it and anything ala PRO is suspect.KOOS did not know that when he purchased thr mantle or the ****ful Joe Jackson card he has! The idioys who saw he was green and hoodwinked him are Gerry Mosser his fat brother and Art VonDole....they are desciples of Highway Robbery Rick** ( but on a smaller scale) they are the ones who taught " jailtimefor All" to do the self-slabbing contridiction of business ethics thing....this very thing that David hall went to Prison for ala PCGS ( the coin portion of PSA** ) you guys all know the deal here right???? On the old Board Koos,myself ( also swindled from these pirates out of reversed VISA charges for a $2k Cobb I sold and sent to them prior to PayPal!!!)wrote allabout this only to have those guys come on and deny a bunch of accusations that ended up dismissing them from this group....."bedrock auctions" PSA-cards, Kardz-r-us and "beanies" and whaterver other handles they use are the ones who purchased the card from BilMastro who legit/auctioned it as altered.....for $8200...then ripped green boy Koos ( who calls Fraser son "YF" )for around $12500....and now here it is! THE REAL ISSUE IS RECOGCILLIATION FROM PRO FOR CONFLICT OF INTEREST WWITH INTENT TO COMMIT FRAUD*** I won't judge what Koos is up to but if PRO had gotten busted as they deserve than this would not be happeneing now!!! Leon,call me back after you hang out on the porch son!!