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03-19-2002, 11:25 AM
Posted By: <b>Tom Boblitt</b><p>What the crap is BCCG? Beckett Collectors Club Grading..........see the McGwire below:<BR><BR><a href="http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=1812627458" target=_new>http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=1812627458</a><BR><BR>Never heard of this arm of beckett. The website is part of the real Beckett site.

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03-19-2002, 12:20 PM
Posted By: <b>Marc S.</b><p>Grading fees are less, time spent with cards is less, and subjectivity is greater. AVOID.<BR><BR>BCCG: An Identity of its Own <BR>3/15/2002 3:26:04 PM<BR><BR><BR>Beckett Collectors Club Grading isn't out to rule the world. It's just looking to be understood. <BR><BR>Beckett Collectors Club Grading. . .just what exactly is it?<BR><BR>Since BCCG launched in late December, several questions about the service have arisen in hobby circles, most of it centering on the BCCG 10 - which is Mint or better. <BR><BR>Confusion over the BGS 10 - Pristine - was common, but now collectors are beginning to understand the distinct differences between BGS, BVG and BCCG.<BR><BR>The most obvious difference is that the BCCG doesn't possess the internal sleeve that BGS and BVG does, nor does it offer a report card. It's also graded on a different scale. "We stand behind the grading of BCCG, and our 10 with BCCG is at least a Mint card," says Mark Harwell, president of Beckett. "This scale is something that is recognized in our industry - it's the way the hobby has always looked at cards. Until recent years, there weren't terms like 'Gem Mint' or 'Pristine.'<BR><BR>"We're just going back to the basics."<BR><BR>BCCG, Harwell says, is simply an alternative to Beckett's other grading services.<BR><BR>"There's a large market outside our industry," he says. "We feel we can reach them with this product at an attractive price point. It's not a replacement to BGS or BVG, it's a complement to those products."<BR><BR>And it's a brand extension of BGS.<BR><BR>"BGS is designed specifically for cards that need and should be protected even while in the slab and need the extra level of a report card," Harwell adds. "There's a lot of cards that need that. But, there are still thousands and thousands of cards that don't need that but are still cards that could be slabbed and sold in a quality product - a quality product where a $5 card might be valued at $15, $20 or $25 slabbed. These aren't cards worth thousands of dollars, and cards don't end up in PSA or BGS slabs. But without those various levels of services like BCCG, some of these cards probably never would get slabbed and probably would never wind up in the wider market."<BR><BR>Another distinct difference in BCCG and BGS is how consumers can acquire the cards. While BGS is open to small orders, BCCG is generally distributed by high-volume outlets including wholesalers and retailers. The BCCG quantities are almost always larger than those shown on the BGS rate card.<BR><BR>It's a quality graded product intended to reach the wider audience.<BR><BR>"The key thing is to meet the wider market that's out there, and to have a product that can meet it at an appropriate price point and also help bring people into the industry," Harwell says.<BR><BR>Beckett is continuing its initiative - through online postings and with Q&A's with various hobby publications - to set the record straight about BCCG. It's a product aimed at a specific audience - a wider market audience that wants a quality graded card at an affordable price.<BR>

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03-19-2002, 02:32 PM
Posted By: <b>MW</b><p>I really don't understand why everyone sees this as so surprising.<BR><BR>In dozens of different businesses, having secondary brands is common place. Automobile manufacturers, candybar makers, Textile subsidiaries, and beauty product distributors do it all the time. Talk to Andy -- I bet it is common in the bottled water industry too.

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03-19-2002, 04:09 PM
Posted By: <b>warshawlaw</b><p>About all I can see this being good for is the shop-at-home scammer crowd who can crow about the 10 from Beckett without telling their customers that the "real" Beckett isn't this outfit. <BR><BR>The ever-diminishing integrity at Beckett's makes me sick.

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03-19-2002, 04:24 PM
Posted By: <b>MW</b><p>EBay, via their auction format, facilitates a great number of fradulent transactions...shill bidding, reprints sold as originals, scraps of paper sold as vintage baseball cards. Are they (eBay) to blame?<BR><BR>Is it Beckett's responsiblity to "police" every transaction that takes place involving one of their graded products?<BR><BR>To assume "foul play" is to assume malevolent intent. I have found no such evidence.

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03-19-2002, 04:59 PM
Posted By: <b>David</b><p>Just be cause everyone does something, doesn't mean it's right<BR>

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03-19-2002, 05:15 PM
Posted By: <b>MW</b><p>David --<BR><BR>Not every consumer is interested in the same goods. Obviously, quality is a factor, but so is price. If every business only produced and marketed one major brand name, consumers would have far fewer choices.

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03-19-2002, 05:31 PM
Posted By: <b>David</b><p>Apparently, Shop at Home shares that opinion

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03-19-2002, 05:35 PM
Posted By: <b>BRIAN</b><p>This is an age old problem for alot of buisnesses. Does expanding the number of brands increase market share or dilute your initial brand? I have a friend who works in coke's advertising department who has been stuggling with this problem for years. However, selling products is different than selling services.<BR>You shouldn't be able to "buy" a better grade, 1-10 should be a fixed norm, not an arbitrary grid which standards are changed by price. While I understand the buisness reasons for a second tier system, namely creating more revenue, a fear the confusion will end up driving people away from the hobby. It reminds me of the early 90's,when the card companies produced so many multiple sets and insert cards that they confused collectors and investors which ended the prosperity of the late 80's hobby boom. I don't beleive it will have a positive impact on the hobby.<BR> thanks brian

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03-19-2002, 05:49 PM
Posted By: <b>Bill Cornell</b><p>MW-<BR><BR>Even though it was a rhetorical question, I feel stubborn enough to answer your question "Is it Beckett's responsiblity to <BR>'police' every transaction that takes place involving one of their graded products?" with a resounding "NO". Likewise, it's not eBay's responsibility to vouch for the legitimacy of seller items, as they themselves made clear (?) in the recent amendment to their User Agreements: "We are <i>not</i> an auction provider". That may sound like a cop-out, but how can they reasonably be expected to patrol millions of listings?<BR><BR>The problem here is the age-old one of balancing consumer protection with the freedom to do business. <i>Caveat Emptor</i>, for better or worse, must be the first and most important rule when buying. In almost all cases, eBay, Beckett, etc. aren't the problem - sellers are.

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03-19-2002, 06:35 PM
Posted By: <b>MW</b><p>Bill --<BR><BR>Well said...I agree. For any given product, there is always an opportunity to deceptively market it.

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03-19-2002, 06:46 PM
Posted By: <b>Elliot</b><p>that you could make this argument, when you used the "deceptive" argument to back up your contention that SGC should not provide an "authentication" grade. I don't want to open up that "kettle of fish", but would want comments to be tied in with BCCG. BCCG is a horrible mistake on the part of Beckett IMHO.

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03-19-2002, 06:55 PM
Posted By: <b>MW</b><p>In one case, (SGC) grading a creased card or a card with hidden defects as "authentic only" would be in direct conflict with SGC's current grading procedures. They would have to revise any and all policies concerning the encapsulation of cards and significantly alter their guarantees.<BR><BR>To me, grading a card as "authentic only" is, in itself, deceptive.<BR><BR>BCCG grading is not.

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03-19-2002, 06:55 PM
Posted By: <b>leon</b><p>It will diminish perceived brand quality/recognition. I think it will hurt their more quality concsious customer sales. Look what happens to things that get mass marketed. The quality almost always goes down. Yes, there might be a market for it but will it pay off in the long run? Just a few thoughts....regards

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03-19-2002, 07:05 PM
Posted By: <b>MW</b><p>I think Beckett should have every right to expand the grading market in this manner.<BR><BR>Remember the hostility and anti-grading sentiment that PSA once had to deal with in the early and mid-1990s?<BR><BR>Also, I see some of the anti-BCCG sentiment to be nothing more than the product of "hobby spin" created by PSA supporters who fear Beckett's tremendous gains in the graded card marketshare.

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03-19-2002, 07:27 PM
Posted By: <b>petecld</b><p>I know, who asked. But as long as you're reading. . . <BR><BR>I have always felt the the 10 grade should mean Mint since Mint is supposed to be defined as perfect. How do you improve on perfection?<BR><BR>When collectors are paying $900 for PSA 10 1980 Topps George Brett cards then something is wrong. I'm sorry, but "Gem Mint", "Prisitne Mint", "11-Untouched", etc. are nothing more then marketing pulls geared to play on eogmaniacs and those with deep pockets who are trying to over come some other "short coming". <BR><BR>If Mint means a card has no flaws then that should be a "10".<BR><BR>I think BCCG has it as it should be. Too bad if you can't squeeze another $10,000 into the asking price.

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03-19-2002, 07:30 PM
Posted By: <b>petecld</b><p>Leon,<BR><BR>Spent some time talking with the gentlemen at SGC at the Sun-Times show this weekend. We discussed the "authentic" grade issue. I tried, I pleaded my case, and did the best I could. I'm hoping it helped.

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03-19-2002, 07:37 PM
Posted By: <b>Elliot</b><p>...

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03-19-2002, 08:13 PM
Posted By: <b>leon</b><p>First of all in the post above I did not mean to imply that MW was FOR whatever I was saying....the post came out in the wrong place.....too many of us with nothing better to do I guess <img src="/images/happy.gif" height=14 width=14> I won't continue the debate on this thread suffice it to say my views have not changed much on the subjects mentioned and I am more well informed on competing views....next please (yeah right <img src="/images/sad.gif" height=14 width=14> )....regards all

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03-19-2002, 09:00 PM
Posted By: <b>Marc S.</b><p>about BCCG is that they have frankly confused collectors. There have been all too many isntances lately whereby collectors have paid BGS 9.5 prices for BCCG 10 cards. Which they are clearly not.<BR><BR>Beckett now has three different grading systems -- many of them all grading the same card. I can have my 1968 Topps common graded by BGS, BVG and BCCG, and I will likely get three (noticeably) different results.<BR><BR>Combined with the fact that Beckett only has one population report for all three tiers of services (with a 9 of one service co-mingled with 9's of other services) -- it is a great disservice to the community, and in my mind will negatively impact Beckett's long-term viability.<BR><BR>And there are also now people selling Beckett's "pre-grades reviews" on Ebay, as if that alone has value, too.

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03-20-2002, 01:46 AM
Posted By: <b>jay behrens</b><p>Part of the reason SGC appeals to me is that they use a 100 point gradin system. A 1-10 is just too restrictive for all the variance that can be found in the consition of a card. All you have to do is look at the PSA 4-6 cards and see the wild variations in conditions of teh corners and other flaws within even a given grade. The only PSA card I own is a PSA 5 Oakes Nadja. I have seen 6's that look worse than my card and 4's that look better. Even within the 5 grade there is a difference in the visiable conidtion of cards.<BR><BR>Jay

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03-20-2002, 06:49 AM
Posted By: <b>runscott</b><p>SGC was very hard on most of the e95's I've cracked from SGC-holders. No way a caramel card with this type of crease would get vg from SGC. What's the deal?<BR><BR><a href="http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=1812131583" target=_new>http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=1812131583</a>

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03-20-2002, 06:55 AM
Posted By: <b>leon</b><p>It is consistant with my Four Base Hits with a very similar, although a little less noticable crease. I think that a one to one and a half grade deduction is about right....but that's just my opinion....regards.....

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03-20-2002, 07:04 AM
Posted By: <b>runscott</b><p>I wasn't really complaining about the t206 grade - I agree that it's consistent with SGC t206 grading. But I would prefer a 'Good' grade with rough corners and no creases (or nice corners and back paper loss) <BR><BR>I'm just curious about their e95/e96 grading - blood pressure still okay...<BR><BR>I called SGC yesterday with some questions and they passed my question on to someone who called me back promptly...and didn't have an answer. I wanted to know if they would grade my Allegheny - no one there knew. They told me to send it in and they would give me a refund if they didn't grade it. Fair enough

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03-20-2002, 07:26 AM
Posted By: <b>leon</b><p>Gotcha......I believe they will grade an Allegheny card as their first source of reference is the SCD....and they are there...also PSA has graded them as I believe TIK had a Lajoie in a PSA 8 holder....you know all of these were hand cut and are sort of considered proofs.....but I don't really want to start that debate again either....isn't it funny how we don't want to start the long winded "no win" debates anymore? <img src="/images/happy.gif" height=14 width=14> best regards

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03-20-2002, 10:10 AM
Posted By: <b>MW</b><p>Beckett has diversified. I think they're trying to make a specific product available for every type of collector. Just because some dealers/sellers associate one Beckett grading service with another doesn't mean that they're all the same.<BR><BR>Like many new products, there's bound to be a period of time during which the market adjusts. I have a pretty good idea of what each product is and I think those who have either submitted to Beckett or studied their three-tiered grading service are pretty clear as well.<BR><BR>I don't think serious collectors are any more confused by Beckett grading than PSA graders are when they evaluate vintage baseball cards (well, OK, maybe I was kind of kidding about the last part!)

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03-20-2002, 01:23 PM
Posted By: <b>jay behrens</b><p>I have to agree, I have seen some decent looking SGC caramel cards with brutal grades, yet you can find a tobacco card in similar condition with significantly higher grade.<BR><BR>Jay

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03-20-2002, 08:36 PM
Posted By: <b>Jeff Obermeyer</b><p>Jay,<BR><BR>The problem with the SGC 100 point system is that it isn't a 100 point system. Now I'm no expert on SGC and their grades, but I know for a fact that there are a lot of numbers between 1-100 that are not possible within their scale... never heard of an SGC 99 or an SGC 81, for example. <BR><BR>I'm sure someone else on this board who uses SGC regularly can tell us how many actual "grades" SGC has... I'm not really sure, but I think it's something like 20 or so. <BR><BR>Kind of defeats the whole purpose of a 100 point scale, doesn't it?<BR><BR>Jeff

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03-20-2002, 08:47 PM
Posted By: <b>Elliot</b><p>...

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03-20-2002, 11:45 PM
Posted By: <b>jay behrens</b><p>true, they do not use a true 100 point scale, they do use more than 10. I really wish a grading company would use 1-100 scale and minimum of 3 graders and then average the scores given by them. That would make for a bit more accurate grading, maybe<BR><BR>Jay

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03-21-2002, 06:45 AM
Posted By: <b>Marc S.</b><p>That just seems to be way too detailed given the nature of this industry.<BR><BR>Who is going to form the explicity detailed rules and differences for each number? I mean, what is the difference between a 73 and a 74? When it is that detailed -- the perceived opportunity to crack/resubmit and have your cards' grade bumped is way too severe.

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03-21-2002, 12:54 PM
Posted By: <b>jay behrens</b><p>Marc, sounds like a great marketing scam to me <img src="/images/wink.gif" height=14 width=14> If you have 3 people averaging scores, it will ultimately hit an upper limit and once you get tot aht point, then there is just as good a chance that your card may come back with a lower score.<BR><BR>Jay

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03-21-2002, 01:59 PM
Posted By: <b>Julie Vognar</b><p>is fairly uneven.

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03-21-2002, 02:15 PM
Posted By: <b>MW</b><p>...that SGC currently does things. I think they utilize the most precision (and yet not ridiculous) grading standards in the hobby.