Opinions on T206 error cards

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Posted By: <b>warshawlaw&nbsp; </b><p>I was curious as to what the board repondents thought would be the values of two specific types of printing errors: (1) the "reverse ghost" on the card back and (2) a long card with the name cut in half at the bottom and cut in half at the top. <BR><BR>Also, how do you put a picture on here?

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Posted By: <b>runscott</b><p>Charlie's Weimer is the best "ghosted image on the back" card I've seen. I think his was a deliberate test by the printer, unlike an extremely poor example I have that was almost certainly caused by a wet sheet. Mine is probably worth very little, but his is certainly valued by those who collect that type of card (me)....Charlie is getting very,very tired...you will give your Weimer card to Scott!! Wake up!<BR><BR>Regarding the second type of card you mentioned (partial names) I've bought a few but haven't noticed any premium attached to them by buyers. They sometimes go for around $60 in vg if two bidders get into a tiny war over them. John D recently picked up a Chance with 3/4 of the name on the bottom and practically the entire name at the top - seems very unusual. I just picked up a miscut Dolly Stark on ebay with the top edge of the top border appearing at the bottom - I'd never seen one of those before, but I didn't pay a premium for it.<BR><BR>Whether they are "garbage" or not is debatable, but there is definitely a small group of collectors who buy and trade them and their value is going to be determined by the market, not someone elses determination that they (the cards,not the collectors) should have been thrown in the trash originally and are therefore worthless.

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Posted By: <b>David</b><p>You have to log in first, than you can post images. If you can't do it, feel free to email your images to my and I will.<BR><BR>I agree with Scott. The above/below name plate T206s are not uncommon and usually only have a small premium. If the card is especially tall, that might be another story.<BR><BR>As far as the ghosted cards go-- whether on back or front, its the card's overal aesthetic value that counts, including darkness/clarity of the ghost. As Scott noted, Charlie has (had) the best back ghost I've seen, and also one of the nicer front ghosts.

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Posted By: <b>Lee Behrens</b><p>There is a Happy Smith T206 up for auction that fits your description of half name on top and bottom, Is this yours? <BR><BR>I can do that card one better, I have a T206 Schlei with his name on the top AND bottom. If The Happy card goes for that kind of money I will happily put mine up for sale. I will post a scan later.<BR><BR>I personally think they are miscut, but one man's junk is another man's treasure.<BR><BR>Hoping to be Happier <img src="/images/happy.gif" height=14 width=14><BR><BR>Lee

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Posted By: <b>David</b><p>I know a collector in Conneticut who, like the Honorable Frank Ward, specializes in unique and uncatalogued baseball cards, who owns the 1930s printing plates for an unknown baseball card issue, including stars like George Sisler. I saw them. Others are welcome to fill in my brain, but I am only aware of the existence of one other Pre-War baseball card printing plates-- which, incidentally, were auctioned on eBay some time ago.<BR>

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Posted By: <b>MW</b><p>Warshawlaw --<BR><BR>To post an image, type the following without the "!" symbol:<BR><BR>&lt;!img src="location of image/name of image"&gt;

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Posted By: <b>runscott</b><p>Thousands and thousands of plates were created for these cards - why have so few survived? You would think that some would have been saved.

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Posted By: <b>Charlie</b><p>Hi Everyone...some of you know me and some of you don't. I'm going to give you my straight up view on T206 errors (Scott made me do it). I was also trying to send pictures along with explanations but...I couldn't.... Let me also say I'm 45 years old and have been around these cards when they were pretty plentiful...even a Wagner was obtainable for hundreds of dollars. (of course condition was not too good...maybe mint from some grading companies??? Ha Ha )<BR>(1) As far as The No name on front card go, this used to be a fairly common error....collectors would shy away from them for not being "complete"... What happened to them all??? Pretty scarse...There was a card on ebay with I believe a "Team designation and "no Name" or the other way around....unheard of ...very rare or "unique" if the real thing.<BR>(2) Wrong backs or "shifted backs" (or miscuts)where it looks as though there is a 1/4 of one back and 3/4 of the other (same backs of course)...just off centered...used to be around and people did actually collect them... Fairly scarce.<BR>(3) Partial "Ghosts" (on front) is what I call them...is when a color thats added ...say a brown...is kinda like pushed onto the card...causing a spreadout look on the glove and the belt or shoes...only seen one...got one on ebay and it looks trimmed...sure there's more out there somewhere???? Just haven't seen them....no opinion...<BR>(4) Of course you have the partial name on top...name on bottom cards...these are not errors but miscuts... pretty common....Larger examples with more of the names shown...not at all common.<BR>(5) Miscut fronts...where you have 90% or so one player and 10% or so another...not common....but out there...<BR>(6) "Light or Fake Ghost Backs" Cards that come from sheets that were actually placed on sheets that were still wet....not a pronounced image....Not seen often nowadays...<BR>(7) "Actual Ghost Backs" A card where the image of the front is so pronounced on the back of the card that it could never be caused by a "wet sheet"...This is a mystery....Negative???...No one really knows for sure...or does someone?????... Rare<BR>(8) T206 Snodgrass (Nodgrass) Regular Snodrass cards probably has it beat 50 to 1...but examples still coming onto the field.<BR>(9) T206 Fred Mitchell Toronto "No O" error. Excellent card to pick at....very controvertial...only two known!!! and only one graded SGC 80...is there more???<BR>Probably somewhere...Thanks Scott for getting me into this...See ya buddy.<BR>

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Posted By: <b>MW</b><p>(10) Either pose of "Nodgrass" -- most likely fake<BR>(11) Mitchell -- no "o" in Toronto -- fake

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Posted By: <b>Charlie</b><p>would happen and you're wrong...You have no clue of what you are talking about with these two cards. You didn't see them to make an observation. Before we go on with a 40 page argument back and forth would you care to make a little wager? We will take both cards to an independent source...you got the nerve tough guy?

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Posted By: <b>Charlie</b><p>I don't think Shakespere knows the answer...

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Posted By: <b>MW</b><p>Charlie --<BR><BR>I'm not trying to be confrontational here. I'm just stating my opinion, which, I'm sure, is agreeable to some and disagreeable to others.<BR><BR>FYI: It was once pointed out to me that the "Nodgrass" error has been around (perhaps) longer than I have. My response? So have erasers.

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Posted By: <b>MW</b><p>It <b><i>should</i></b> read, "Another rare opportunity!"<BR><BR><a href="http://cgi.ebay.com/aw-cgi/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=1803681673" target=_new>http://cgi.ebay.com/aw-cgi/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=1803681673</a>

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Posted By: <b>MW</b><p>Art M?

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Posted By: <b>David</b><p>Lithographic (T206, Goudey, Allen & Ginter, Topps, etc) plates were usually 'wiped clean' when finished weren't designed to last forever. Photengraving plates(Just So, Sporting Life, Sporting News, etc) would last if kept. I've seen a number of newspaper releif plates from the 19th century with baseball subjects that are still around-- so there's no reason a few old card plates wouldn't exist, other than the printers' closets were getting full.

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Posted By: <b>Lee Behrens</b><p>Here is a scan of the T206 Schlei with a double name it measures correct.<BR><BR>Leehttp://www.network54.com/Realm/tmp/1013371040.JPG

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Posted By: <b>Lee Behrens</b><p>Her we go again.<BR><BR><img src="http://www.network54.com/Realm/tmp/1013371040.JPG">

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Posted By: <b>Charlie</b><p>Nice card...How did you post the picture? I tried last night a few times but really don't know how...<BR>Thanks

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Posted By: <b>Charlie</b><p><img src="http://www.network54.com/Realm/tmp/1013377036.JPG"> <img src="http://www.network54.com/Realm/tmp/1013377056.JPG">

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Posted By: <b>petecld</b><p>If the images you posted are examples of #4 on your list I don't know how you can call these errors. <BR><BR>They just suffer from poor print registration and aren't the same thing as the "ghost" examples you see. Some of which I've seen I do find facinating and their value to me is the insight they give to the process used print T206 cards. <BR><BR>Off registration is very common in the "E" world I live in. I've never known a collector to give these cards a premium. Matter of fact it tends to bring the value down.<BR><BR>To each his own.<BR><BR>BTY - Basd on the examples I have been able to compare - not buying the "nodgrass" thing either.

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Posted By: <b>Charlie</b><p>were errors...just unusual cards. Thought some collectors would like to see them...thats all. As far as the "Nodgrass" I'm sure there are fakes out there where the "s" was erased etc....we all know that. I seriously doubt that someone could remove the s and get it past SGC or PSA...but there are people that feel the Wagner was trimmed too...In my opinion it has not been trimmed. Also nothing is 100% and there's always a chance mistakes happen...but I'd take my chances with PSA or SGC over someone looking at a scan on ebay and coming to the conclusion its no good. A lot has to do with where the card originated from...who had the card before....was he a collector etc etc...just my opinion...thanks.

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Posted By: <b>runscott</b><p>It's fairly easy to find t206's with faint images of the cigarette ad on the front, made from wet sheets. I've been collecting these - one for each back, but I don't consider them valuable. But I've noticed recently that they've been commanding a premium when advertised as "error" cards. Seems ridiculous, but as long as the buyer recognizes what they're getting...<BR><BR>I've seen two different types of "wet sheet" ghosted player images on the back. I have one with a lousy black ink image on the back. I've seen two on ebay recently with much clearer black ink player images, but they still don't compare to the Weimer in quality.<BR><BR>The other type of "wet sheet" ghosted image I've seen has the color part of the player image, but NONE of the black. Seems like more of these would be around, but I've only seen the one. It's not particularly attractive, but hey, it's something I collect:<BR><BR><img src="http://www.network54.com/Realm/tmp/1013390285.JPG">

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Posted By: <b>MW</b><p>&lt;&lt; Let me also say I'm 45 years old and have been around these cards when they were pretty plentiful...even a Wagner was obtainable for hundreds of dollars. &gt;&gt;<BR><BR>This statement seemed kind of strange, so I took a look at some of the issues of "The Sport Hobbyist" and "The Trader Speaks" from the 1970s.<BR><BR>Going back to the Spring of 1972 (when Charlie would have been 16 or so), "The Sport Hobbyist" indicates that only half a dozen or so examples of the T206 Wagner were known to exist. The selling price at that time was $1,000.<BR><BR>In April of 1978 (when Charlie would have been 22 or 23), Lew Lipset indicates in his column (Lew's Corner, "The Trader Speaks") that a T206 Wagner in good condition had sold for $3,000. By September of 1979, when it was estimated that 30 Wagners were in existence, an Ex condition copy changed hands for $8,000.<BR><BR>Charlie –- I'm not saying you are completely wrong on this matter, but the facts that I have discovered just don't support your claims. When the T206 Wagner would have been selling for "hundreds of dollars" there just weren't a whole lot of them drifting about. Then, by the late 1970's when supposedly more were "available" the price was already several thousand dollars. Where and when did you see a T206 Wagner for hundreds of dollars?<BR>

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Posted By: <b>petecld</b><p>If you think I would make a conclusion based a few sellers from ebay the only person you're fooling is yourself. Didn't one seller have 11 Nodgrass cards or something? Oh yeah, I'm SURE they were all real.<BR><BR>For the record I tought I did come across something that would have proven if a Nodgreass card was legitimate or just a doctored "Snodgrass". I was proven wrong with the scans I received. I used scans from various sources and all are names you would recognize as being veteran collectors and contributors to the hobby including one man who authored a book on T206 cards that we are all greatly anticipating. I know I am and I don't even collect T206 cards!<BR><BR>Trust PSA and SGC? Aren't PSA the ones who graded a M101.4 Babe Ruth REPRINT! Aren't SGC the ones who graded an altered T206 Doyle? Oh yeah, they would never let a doctored card slip by them.<BR><BR>

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Posted By: <b>Charlie</b><p>11 but I guess it could be considering the collection the man has. I never bought a bad card from the guy and I've dealt me him a number of times. I wish I had saved the old SCD's...I could show you....<BR>PSA and SGC have made a couple of blunders like you say but for the most part its a safe bet to have cards graded.<BR>Charlie

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Posted By: <b>David</b><p>While useful trends may be discovered by extensive in person examination, I think these errors should be determined authentic or fake on a card by card, in person basis. It's as simple as that. While I enjoy a good rumor and theory as much as the other person, I think its problematic at best for people who haven't actually seen a subtle card to make blanket statements.<BR><BR>If someone has such an error (sans holder) and is in Seattle, I will happily eximine his/her card.<BR><BR>A black light may sometimes be less useful with T206s, as T206s have little fluorescence in the first place. There are, however, a wide variety of tests, including the use of an infrared viewer, that prove effective.

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Posted By: <b>runscott</b><p>Pete - that first card looks like they printed the brown ink twice and missed on the second attempt, but it could just be the orange/black combination. I've seen t206's where the seller claimed the card had been "double-struck" with one of the ink colors - does this seem likely/possible? Thanks

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Posted By: <b>Plastic Dog</b><p>Charlie, I have to side with MW in this debate. The Nodgrass cards that the seller in question has had graded are definitely fakes. A local collector purchased one of the catching varieties (PSA-graded) and while it passed a blue/black light examination, it failed another close inspection when held at an angle under a bright light. This guy has had cards graded by both PSA and SGC; his operation is more advanced than most. (And if you go back over his buying habits, he has purchased a large number of common Snodgrass cards. Coincidence? No way.)

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Posted By: <b>MW</b><p>edited