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02-03-2002, 02:33 PM

Posted By: Plastic Dog  In restrospect, there seems another option. A "0" or "0.5" ("1/2") grade, given to authentic but altered cards. If a card, such as Leon's Matty will grade, then it should be graded if someone (you listening Leon?) wants to have it slabbed. If it won't grade, but is altered, then it should receive a grade below poor (the lowest level of unaltered card). Leon wants his rare, altered cards graded - he gets an SGC-1/2 (or .5 or even 0 grade), with the grade description written as "Authentic but Altered" or "Authentic but Restored" and maybe SGC could have a specific web page with serial numbers and a more in-depth description of the alteration (or restoration). A forgery still gets nothing. A hand-cut card - like the Ty Cobb Back in the one Mastro auction awhile back - would either be graded on its merits as a pre-production card or graded as "Authentic but Altered" (and the database would reflect "hand-cut"). Not sure where I stand on that one. Anyway, the bottom line is that this proposal would serve the purpose of: 1. Authenticating every authentic card 2. Any "gradeable" card still gets graded 3. Any altered/restored card is marked as such, and a buyer can check a database to learn the extent of alteration before purchasing the card. Any major gaps?

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02-03-2002, 02:57 PM

Posted By: Plastic DogMaybe some of the weird stuff - like the hand-cut Ty Cobb back or even the hand-cut Piedmont Wagners - should receive the same numerical grade (i.e. 0 or 1/2) and a description of "Authentic but Non-Standard." That would possibly be a descent option for some of the other pre-production printer's scrap and miscellaneous oddities. Items that wouldn't grade now because they were clearly hand-cut (but whether at the factory or in some 10-year-old's back-yard is unclear). Also, on the Snodgrass/Nodgrass, we would have to come up with a means of ensuring that Authentic but Altered is not passed off as "real trimmed Nodgrass" on the unsuspecting buyer. Maybe yet another category: "Authentic but Deceptive" So, in summary, you have a grade clearly below poor for altered, authentic cards, with a number less than one - maybe 0, maybe 1/2 or .5 - with the following qualifiers: Authentic but Restored Authentic but Altered Authentic but Non-Standard Authentic but Deceptive However, in all honesty, I hope that these cards never get slabbed.

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02-03-2002, 07:10 PM

Posted By: MW...that these cards should not end up in holders. I think you have some great ideas here, but all things considered, why would someone want to get their altered card graded like this in the first place? To enhance the value and make it seem legitimate? In the future, I agree that there might eventually be a demand for certain high-ticket cards in more affordable, restored states. Right now, however, I don't think this is something the hobby needs very badly. I'd rather submit to a grading company that concentrates solely on encapsulating unaltered cards without having to worry about all the other nonsense.

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02-03-2002, 07:41 PM

Posted By: runscottseems like a good card to debate this issue with. The one recently on e-bay, according to the seller, has been restored. What if the seller was someone you had never heard of - how sure would you be that this high-dollar card was real? How much has it been altered? Are the repaired holes he mentions the only alterations? Would you rather bid on this card the way it is, or in a slab that says "authentic", along with any qualifiers the authentication company could come up with to indicate the level of alteration?

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02-03-2002, 08:20 PM

Posted By: MWrunscott -- I would ask about the return policy and/or have the seller send it to me so I could examine it and then return it if I didn't like it. There's no need to put it in a holder -- that would only compound the problem.

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02-03-2002, 10:45 PM

Posted By: jay behrensI personally have no need for a grading service and prefer my cards loose, but sadly, about 90% or more this hobby is incapable accurately grading card or even being able to tell if it has been altered or even a fake. Grading services came about becuase of most people's inability to grade and the desire for a 3rd party to make a supposedly unbiased opinion of the grade. The same will more than likely happen with altered cards too. There just way too altered cards out there now. Jay

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02-04-2002, 05:04 AM

Posted By: runscottNo one I knew ever felt that way. I thought it came about because some opportunists saw a way to make money off cards the same way investors did off of graded coins. Potential card investors then jumped on it, and now collectors just have to deal with it. Please correct me if I'm wrong. Thanks

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02-04-2002, 07:03 AM

Posted By: Marc S.That it was partly opportunistic, and also as a response to the even-worse "opportunists" -- the dealers who routinely altered cards. I know many collectors who got burned in the late 1980s by spending thousands upon thousands of dollars buying high-grade Mantle, Williams, and Ruth cards that eventually turned out to be altered, bleached or re-colored. It is collectors that got burned like this, I thought, that helped fuel the initial demand for some of the graded-card industry. Of course, you have to wonder how they were so easily fooled on trimmed cards time and time again. But many of the trim jobs were done expertly, without many of the tell-tale signs that reveal a sloppy job by today's standards. I've seen a few examples where I needed professional guidance to identify the areas of alteration...

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02-04-2002, 07:55 AM

Posted By: runscottFor those of you who have never seen bleached cards (I was one until yesterday), check the most recent "Wayne Varner Shoebox Cards Catalog" - he has a load of these advertised as bleached. Damn they're ugly! He also has an e95 Wagner at 2x Catalog value for a vg, which has a heavy crease across the bottom, and which I want anyway...

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02-04-2002, 08:02 AM

Posted By: runscottWe've been supplying the White House with "cavernous heads" on a steady basis since the '60s, so we must be doing something right. Also, we never judge others except on the basis of their card-collecting tastes - yours is varied enough to appeal to all.

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02-04-2002, 10:29 AM

Posted By: Plastic DogI never used to really care one way or another about Texas until my roommate from college moved there and became brainwashed by the entire experience. Texas this, Texas that, "go Horns" ad nauseum. I actually used to route for the Longhorns in sports. But a couple of Bushes later and exposure to a few more rabid fans has me pretty cynical on the whole place. I'm sure I would love it if I ever moved there. But I won't ever move there, and so I continue to despise the place. Please let me continue to enjoy this one simple pleasure. Here's my take on grading companies. Not sure which one was first, but I know Alan Hager was early in the game. He moved from coins over to cards, applied similar philosophies (and ethical standards), and ASA was born. He sold the patents for the holders to PSA or CSA or whoever. I will not go into a diatribe about my experiences with ASA at this point; I've said it all before (plus Hager actually gave me a full refund for 3 trimmed US Caramels just last month after I managed to contact him - 8 years after I originally purchased the cards in one of his auctions. No kidding.) Anyway, I think that greed and need went hand and hand. Fake Roses in the 80s, altered Mantles in the 90s and other problems necessitated grading companies, but very little was graded for awhile (even when PSA started out - at the time I lived in California and saw pretty much the extent of their business at area regional and national shows). Pesonally, I always thought that PSA's holders were ugly, which is why I never got my stuff graded. However, I think that the continuing climb in prices throughout the 90s, combined with the increase in mail-order purchases (and in recent years internet purchases), increased the need and fed the greed. Some are greedier than others (anybody from PRO or NASA out there?). Today, I think that the companies can only stay in business by doing everything possible to ensure their integrity. PSA seems to be losing quite a lot of collectors' confidence. I honestly don't trust their grading anymore on anything prior to 1948. And I think that they're really questionable when it comes to impartiality in their relationship with high-volume customers. SGC has its problems, but they're the only company that I at least trust most of the time.