How come with every size variation, the smaller card always has sharper corners? [Archive]

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01-19-2002, 12:06 PM

Posted By: Plastic Dog  Ever wonder about size variations in E, T, and N-cards? How come in every size variation that people describe "within tolerance," it is always, without fail, the smaller card that has straighter edges and sharper corners. For example, here are two T206 Jacksons currently on EBay (please don't bid against me lest I have to snipe you unmercilessly over the next year): <a href="http://cgi.ebay.com/aw-cgi/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=1063093489" target=_new>http://cgi.ebay.com/aw-cgi/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=1063093489</a> <a href="http://cgi.ebay.com/aw-cgi/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=1064455305" target=_new>http://cgi.ebay.com/aw-cgi/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=1064455305</a> The 7 is clearly shorter top to bottom than the 6. (By the way, I'm not saying anything about the sellers - they probably picked up the cards already slabbed. I am bidding on both, after all.) But this whole thing about "tolerance" in size is problematic. I bet the overwhelming percentage of smaller cards are in better condition than the larger cards. Which makes absolutely no sense, unless we recognize the obvious: dealers/sellers/others have trimmed down vintage cards to improve condition. We all know it happens, but I have several PSA-graded cards which are obviously trimmed. But graded by PSA nonetheless. There is a certain PSA Wagner which was clearly trimmed from some type of sheet. The card, in my opinion, is still worth the money (given its history and importance for the hobby), but I don't think that any of the previous owners of the card can in honesty deny this. I don't even think that anyone did anything wrong (unless they tried to pass it off as actually being issued in a pack, which certainly it wasn't). But all of this begs the question: How can you be sure that your high-grade cards aren't trimmed, even if they fall within the size tolerance (but on the smaller end)? Blue light or no blue light, I'm sure someone has worked through that minor inconvenience. Pretty soon the size tolerance on cards will vary by a whole inch. And 100 years from now people will question the published sizes in those "ancient" Standard Catalogs, as they clearly must have overstated the sizes of early tobacco and candy cards. After all, no cards will exist in such oversized dimensions. And what is this VG condition anyway? All of the cards still in existence will be a beautiful NM or better - especially the smaller ones.

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01-19-2002, 12:44 PM

Posted By: petecldI agree with you 100%. I think collectors rely too heavily on the old "production standards" excuse. I also don't think PSA or any grading company for that matter gives a flying rats butt. They have the submitters money and any "size" challenge is really a matter of opinion so there is no legal recourse. fact is you can not argue there are legitimate variance in sizes for "T", "N" and "E" cards. I think the best approach for has been using my gut instinct. I've seen some really nice cards that "looked" great but something "seemed" wrong. I will trust how a card "seems to me" over how it "looks to me" every time. Naive? Maybe. But when I look at a card I bought I don't want to fell like I've done something I'll be sorry for later. If I am offered a VG card, full size or a Nm/Mt card that is not full sized, I will always opt for the full sized, Vg card. Too much money is spent on cards not to be comfortable with your purchase and I was never a condition freak any way. I hear so many collectors complain about the grades they get so then I have to wonder what are the grading companies good for any way. I haven't seen a PRO card that I would consider buying and don't even get me going on NASA. It is this size issue that I felt so strongly about the E94 cards "billjo" sold on ebay. If I didn't know about the Lipset auction I may have bought some of those trimmed cards which "looked" fine and were just as the seller stated - merely "short". I'm sorry, but a "short" card and a "trimmed" card are two vastly different cards and yet both may measure the same. It's all about the integrity and motivation of the seller or in the example "plastic.dog" brought the integrity and motivation of the grading company.

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01-19-2002, 05:50 PM

Posted By: Julie Vognar<img src="/images/sad.gif" height=14 width=14>

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01-19-2002, 06:37 PM

Posted By: runscottI haven't seen an ex or better t206 yet that I was sure wasn't trimmed, slabbed or not. A 10x magnifier hasn't helped me much, nor has my gut instinct. On the other hand, I've seen plenty of t206's that I am positive are trimmed, both in and out of plastic. I haven't held as many cards as most of you, but I've held enough to know this isn't likely to change.

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01-19-2002, 07:08 PM

Posted By: Plastic Dogare the ones that I've purchased (directly or indirectly) from an original collection. I must say, however, that I'm much more comfortable purchasing SGC-graded tobacco and candy cards than those from PSA or anywhere else. I don't know how much of that confidence is truly warranted; how can they actually be sure either?

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01-19-2002, 07:13 PM

Posted By: warshawlawI have owned several T206's that are ex or ex+ and that I am sure are not in any way trimmed. So, I think it is a bit over the top to suggest that every higher grade specimen is altered. That being said, I do believe that many, many of the PSA 7 and up cards are altered. I also believe that my SGC 80 Waddell portrait is altered, which is why I won't even try to sell it. Personally, I stay away from high end baseball T cards unless I can inspect them personally then send them in for slabbing. I'd rather have a bunch of 4 and 5 cards that show honest wear on all corners than a supposedly near mint card that I can never be sure of.

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01-19-2002, 07:16 PM

Posted By: warshawlawLike it or not, there are legitimate size variations. I collect boxing T cards and I have several that are larger than the average. Most show excessive wear on a border, as though it had been sticking up over the edge of a stack. I also have seen quite a few obviously trimmed T cards that were probably cut down from oversized cards by some kid long ago. Unfortunately, when you get down to millimeters on items that were really throw-aways when they were made, you are going to find variations.

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01-19-2002, 07:33 PM

Posted By: runscottbut I personally can't tell. I've seen very small cards with perfect edges that are so small they must be trimmed, but other than size, I don't see the evidence. How can you tell for certain a card hasn't been trimmed? This would be great information to have.

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01-19-2002, 07:34 PM

Posted By: Plastic Dogthat there are graded cards out there that I'm comfortable with; but most of those take up the entire PSA holder (can't tell with SGC, since while some of their holders are precut, many are cut to fit a specific card.) It's the cards that have quite a bit of extra room in the holders (usually top to bottom) that I question. It's hard to justify paying $400-500 for a PSA-8 T-206 when it is a little short in the holder. Maybe it is good. But if you go through and look at all of the "8s" on EBay, it's ironic how many of them have quite a bit of extra room either above or below the card. On the flip side, here's a card I would be comfortable purchasing: <a href="http://cgi.ebay.com/aw-cgi/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=1064089697" target=_new>http://cgi.ebay.com/aw-cgi/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=1064089697</a> Clearly takes up the entire holder.

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01-19-2002, 08:44 PM

Posted By: Lee BehrensFrom what I read and I may be wrong, but aren't you incinuating that alot of Graded 6 or better have been trimmed. If this is the case, why are you bidding on these cards? Just wondering, I still don't like grading card companies. Lee

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01-19-2002, 08:59 PM

Posted By: Doug AllenIt is the not the size it is the cut and the edge. The cutting process for T206s and other vintage cards is much different than it is today. The problem is too many collectors depend way too much on whether or not a card measures up as opposed to learning what the cut and edge should look like on a T206. Regardless of whether or not you like or dislike PSA or SGC I commend them on understanding these nuances. I measure my cards and if they are within 1/16th of an inch I move beyond size to the cut and the edge.

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01-20-2002, 12:05 AM

Posted By: Davidbut all my rulers are metric. I knew that Canadian shopping spree would be the ruin of me.

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01-20-2002, 09:57 AM

Posted By: runscottIt would be nice to see images of "good" edges vs "bad edges" (under a magnifier). Does anything like this exist? Thanks

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01-20-2002, 09:57 AM

Posted By: Plastic DogDoug, I agree with you completely! In all honesty, I look at the edges before I even look at the size. I think the wear on the edges on the back is very telling. I'm not advanced enough to actually loop the type of cut, but I don't think that is really necessary 90% of the time. If something looks VG or VG-EX with appropriate wear, I don't really worry about size (unless obviously a problem). If something is suspiciously clean or straight on the back, I look at size a lot closer. Most of the times those "nice" cards are on the smaller size of tolerance, or just under by 1/16 of an inch. To me, that means that the card was in all likelihood trimmed (from a large or even oversize card). Rarely do these really "nice" cards end up on the larger end of the spectrum. If they were really unaltered, the proportion on the large size would be the same as the smaller ones. But that is not usually the case. I have a feeling technology is good enough now where people can approximate an "older" cut, at least good enough to fool most of the collectors out there. For example, the Gretzky Wagner was clearly cut from some type of sheet - whether a printer's proof, a salesman sample, or some unissued strip, there just is no logical way to argue otherwise. Especially when the only other Piedmont back was admittedly hand-cut. The difference between the two is that the Gretzky copy was likely "cut" a lot more recently, or at least cut further. The only problem I have with the whole sales process is the PSA grading of the card; if they will grade that without annotation, how are we to be sure that they can tell whether other cards have been similarly improved?

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01-20-2002, 01:30 PM

Posted By: Julie VognarDuring the '80s. financial situation forced me to sell a lot of T206s (and other cards). Of course, the dealers and collectors I sold to went for the ex-mint, near mint and (if there were any) mint cards. I was left with a bunch of ex, ex+ and occasionally vg-ex cards. A few weeks ago, Mark Macrae was over buying my rebacked Old Judge Kelly, and he took a quick look at my T206s--"What a NICE collection of T206s you have there!" he said. And I realized, they were nice, because nobody with any sense trusts the zillion near-mint T206s that are on the market today. Still, I'd give a lot for a really beautiful T206 Speaker. What a hard card to find in really great shape! Julie <img src="/images/happy.gif" height=14 width=14>

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01-20-2002, 02:36 PM

Posted By: warshawlawI recently went against better judgment and purchased a PRO graded card. When I got it, the first thing I did was look at the edges. Sure enough, two edges showed normal wear (the set, N28, tends to chip on the edges), two were RAZOR sharp. I believe it was trimmed. One of the reasons I like ex to ex-mt cards is that the modicum of honest wear on the cards makes it nearly impossible to alter the edges in any way without it being really obvious.

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01-20-2002, 03:06 PM

Posted By: Plastic Doghere is a PSA-8 copy currently on EBay: <a href="http://cgi.ebay.com/aw-cgi/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=1800100698" target=_new>http://cgi.ebay.com/aw-cgi/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=1800100698</a> I have no idea whether it has been altered or not, nor do I know the seller. But you were asking . . .

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01-20-2002, 07:59 PM

Posted By: Julie VognarEven when I have the dough, I don't buy $700 cards for $3000. never bought a graded card over a 6, or an 80--and less than ten of them. Besides, I just got a Mayo Hamilton, and I'm BROKE. Very nice card though (I think!). Thanks for pointing it out. Julie <img src="/images/happy.gif" height=14 width=14>

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01-20-2002, 08:12 PM

Posted By: Julie VognarCrazy seller! He only has two really vintage cards, the Speaker, and a "Nodgrass," both with high PSA grades. He's also selling '52 '56, and '59 Topps--and lots of Tootsietoys. Looks very enterprizing and successful. Julie <img src="/images/happy.gif" height=14 width=14>

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01-20-2002, 08:20 PM

Posted By: Art M.Ebay seller Greenhornet007 has now listed his 11th T206 Snodgrass, no "S", error card since 1998. Anyone care to figure the odds of 1 person ever owning that many of these? But who is counting? <img src="/images/happy.gif" height=14 width=14>

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01-20-2002, 08:32 PM

Posted By: DavidWere they all different? (as opposed to posting the same one several times without a winner)

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01-20-2002, 10:24 PM

Posted By: Brian Danielsis that some of them graded!!! ( PSA not SGC* of course ) and David, they are different! The guy does acyaully find suckers to buy them!

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01-20-2002, 10:33 PM

Posted By: DavidMaybe 'Snodgrass' will end up being the rarer variation. I've always enjoyed printing/design variations, but a Snodgrass missing a part of one letter never lit my fire. Just my personal taste, not begrudging those who collect it.

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01-21-2002, 04:50 AM

Posted By: JohnI once saw a nodgrass where someone wrote the "s" in,with pen because it was missing...what a difference in price one letter makes,especially when you put the letter in yourself

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01-21-2002, 05:36 AM

Posted By: Marc S.And most have gone through Ebay, various auction houses (including Mastro), etc. The PSA-grading of these cards seems to make them good as gold -- at least in the minds of whoever purchases them. So, Art, I thought this card was one topic that might be discussed in your (hopefully soon) forthcoming T-206 book. Any comments on that? I would actually love to hear if someone can explain, in a detailed process, how this achievement was accomplished.

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01-21-2002, 08:13 AM

Posted By: runscottHere's a card I picked up in a lot recently that had me fooled for a while. Certainly you can't tell from the scan that a letter has been removed. The only way I could tell was by holding it up to the light to catch a different reflection from the tampered area. <img src="http://www.network54.com/Realm/tmp/1011629586.JPG">

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01-21-2002, 04:48 PM

Posted By: Julie Vognarin an earlier auction of Greenhornet's, ending Jan. 3, with a BIN of $10,000. There were no bids. <img src="/images/happy.gif" height=14 width=14>

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01-21-2002, 05:01 PM

Posted By: runscottI sold this in a lot of 11 cards for about $83