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12-05-2001, 09:19 PM
Posted By: <b>David Watkins</b><p>what is everybodies opinion on the E94's in nr/mt shape by billjo on ebay right now. The bidding seems quite low for cards of this condition. Does anybody have inside knowledge on these cards.<BR>David

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12-06-2001, 06:06 AM
Posted By: <b>leon</b><p>I will email him and see what his response is. He is a very gracious and nice gentleman as far as I know. (at least treated me that way at the Nationals last year).....I am probably alone on this but if the seller states the card is "short" I feel they are telling you it is "potentially trimmed", depending on what series of cards...also, if there is a question then an astute buyer should get a guarantee of "unadulterated" and if there is no guarantee I would not buy the card.........not sure if I would construe this as dishonest as much as disingenuous. best regards all....from Alaska

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12-06-2001, 06:39 AM
Posted By: <b>runscott</b><p>- I just bought a Lipset auction trimmed Matty from him which he described as "slightly short". Some of the other cards from the set were "obviously butchered". I knew what I was buying and I'm happy about it, but if I didn't know about the Lipset auction I'm not sure how I would feel about it.

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12-06-2001, 07:38 AM
Posted By: <b>petecld</b><p>Ask ANY collector or seller of vintage cards and they will confirm that there are size variations that happened naturally at the printing level.<BR><BR>I have E92s, E94s, E96s, E98s and E102s that are slightly taller then the standard size of 2 3/4 or 2 5/8". Therefore a card above or below that card on the same sheet has to be slightly smaller - very legitimately.<BR><BR>To me "slightly short" means just that. A card that has NOT been altered but just came from the factory cut slightly shorter then the intended size.<BR><BR>Trimmed means the card was purposely cut by someone other then the issuer or printer and was done so for what ever reason (in this case to fit into sheets of all things).<BR><BR>Leon, ask any person who has been scammed and most will say the same thing, "He/she seemed like such a nice person."

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12-06-2001, 07:45 AM
Posted By: <b>petecld</b><p>. . . and how much you paid. If you got a FANTASTIC deal then you might wonder why. On ebay even low grade Wagners sell for $300. If you were bidding in good faith thinking you were getting a legitimate card that hasn't been altered I would try to get my money back.<BR><BR>If he says no, then you'll know how "nice" of a guy he is. A professional seller will give the money back to an unhappy customer.

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12-06-2001, 10:14 AM
Posted By: <b>petecld</b><p>These are the trimmed E94 cards from the Lipset auction. He is pulling the same thing the seller "jonstats" did with the E90-1 Jackson and just used the phrase "slightly short" and never mentioned that they were bought as trimmed. Brian Parker sold the trimmed E93s he won from Lipset on ebay and was honest about it and stated in the description they are trimmed cards. I admire him for that.<BR><BR>"billjo" knows darn well they are trimmed but doesn't seem to mind ripping people off. I had a hunch they were the Lipset cards when they first appeared and stayed away. When I compared the newly listed Cobb to the image from the Lipset catalog - I now know for sure.<BR> <BR>Probably not a coincidence that the ONE image used in the Lipset auction catalog that others can use for comparison was one of the last (24th of 30) cards he posted.

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12-06-2001, 10:40 AM
Posted By: <b>Lee Behrens</b><p>I was the winner of the E94 Wagner, I guess i would like the opinions of some of you on what to do return it, keep it, or ask for some compensation?<BR><BR>Thanks<BR><BR>Lee

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12-06-2001, 11:01 AM
Posted By: <b>Lee Behrens</b><p>I agree with Pete on the size variations of cards, and bid knowing the fact it was slightly short. What bothers me is if he is knowingly selling trimmed cards, but describing them as slightly short.<BR><BR>I won the auction for $416. I am satisfied with the bid if it is NOT knowlingly trimmed.<BR><BR>Your opinions are very helpful and would like to hear more.<BR><BR>Thanks<BR><BR>Lee

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12-06-2001, 11:15 AM
Posted By: <b>leon</b><p>Hey Pete,<BR>My brother told me something recently that stuck. "People are always nice when they want your money". John should have said they were trimmed.<BR>best regards

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12-06-2001, 03:14 PM
Posted By: <b>Lee Behrens</b><p>I received the card today and measeured it , it is really close to the standard measurements, just a very minor angle cut.<BR><BR>Lee

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12-06-2001, 05:55 PM
Posted By: <b>runscott</b><p>I really feel for you Lee - since you're such a good guy, and I hate to see you grieving, I will take that awful butchered card off your hands to ease your pain. Yes, it will be tough for me, but since I already have one of his trimmed cards, there's no need for both of us to suffer - it might as well be me (sob). When February comes around and I'm well on the way to paying off Christmas bills, if you decide you're tired of it, let me know. I would of course give you what you paid for it plus postage and a genuine "cross-eyed" T206 Honus as a replacement.

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12-06-2001, 06:04 PM
Posted By: <b>warshawlaw</b><p>I handle fraud cases for a living, so I know something about the nuances. <BR><BR>Take misrepresentations first. If you know something is true and you say something else (whether it is something different or something that is incomplete that will lead the listener to an erroneous conclusion), you are a fraud. If you don't know something is true and you say something anyway, you are a negligent fraud. If you don't know something is true and you say what you think based on your perceptions, you are stating an opinion that is not a misrepresentation. <BR><BR>Now let's talk about concealment. A fraudulent concealment consists of hiding material information from a buyer. If you hide information that may be material to the buyer, you are committing fraud. <BR><BR>Assuming that the cards came from the Lipset lot, could you nail the seller for affirmative fraud? Probably not. The problem with calling the card trimmed and accusing the seller of intentionally misrepresenting the facts is making the link between affirmative knowledge of the fact that the card was trimmed and making a misrepresentation on ebay as to the condition. We simply don't know whether this card was one of the trimmed cards in the Lipset lot. One of the reasons I stayed away from those lots is that I did not want to risk buying trimmed key cards. Lipset's auction description did not definitively state which cards were trimmed, it just said that most of the cards were trimmed. Since McPherson is dead, there is no way to determine whether the card really was trimmed or was merely short. I have on occasion purchased a card that was labeled as trimmed and found it to be in my view a legitimate size variation. For all we know, John bought the lot and independently decided that the card looked short but not trimmed. Now, if Lipset described the cards as all being trimmed, there might be an issue. <BR><BR>Is there a concealment case here? If the cards were indeed from the Lipset auction, probably. I as a buyer would want to know that the cards were from this collection and I as a seller would have posted the facts. I would have stated that the cards were from McPherson's collection and that they may have been trimmed, but that in my opinion after eyeballing the card, it was within tolerances for the issue and not trimmed. I also would have offered to permit the buyer to have SGC grade it (at his expense) with a return proviso should SGC decide it is trimmed. <BR><BR>My dealings with John have been good, by the way. I just refuse to buy anything listed as "short". If the cards are from the Lipset lot, I would probably decline them.

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12-06-2001, 08:34 PM
Posted By: <b>leon</b><p> Lee, you know to check for the same (except opposite) angle cut on the opposite side, correct? I have seen a lot of cards that had the same "type" cut on 2 sides and took that as to be some more evidence the card might NOT be trimmed. ....just a friendly reminder if you did not check that aspect, as you did not mention it............best regards

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12-07-2001, 01:58 AM
Posted By: <b>Lee Behrens</b><p>The left side of the card has an angle cut and the right side is straight. Is this a common practice? the edges are dirty on the side.<BR><BR>The top of the card has the strongest indictation of trimming, it does not appear to be a straight cut, and the edge appears cleaner than the other edges.<BR><BR>I am waiting for answer from Billjo.<BR><BR>Lee

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12-08-2001, 09:27 AM
Posted By: <b>petecld</b><p>In another thread on this board about this matter Billingsly's reply about his descriptions was "He said that Lew told him that that would be an ok description so that is what he did. Two things - <BR><BR>1. Does this not confirm that the cards are in fact from the Lipset auction where they were sold as "trimmed"? Why else ask Lew?<BR><BR>2. Upon asking Lipset about wording of future sales of these same cards without using the word "trimmed" as Lew did in his auction and with Lew now knowing the intention of the question was reselling of the cards - two people are now involved. Doesn't that fit the legal definition of conspiracy to commit fraud? <BR><BR>Can any of the lawyers on the board confirm or explain this?

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12-08-2001, 11:48 AM
Posted By: <b>Lee Behrens</b><p>Is there anyone that can email Lew Lipset and ask him about the matter. I have never had any dealings with him.<BR><BR>No response yet from Billjo, I am going to resend the message.<BR><BR>Thanks<BR><BR>Lee

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12-08-2001, 01:50 PM
Posted By: <b>David</b><p>If you have a question, email him-- but be forewarned, he often acts like a jerk.

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12-08-2001, 05:52 PM
Posted By: <b>warshawlaw</b><p>EOM

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12-08-2001, 07:31 PM
Posted By: <b>David</b><p>I was trying to be polite.

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12-09-2001, 12:31 AM
Posted By: <b>Lee Behrens</b><p>I received my reply today, it sounded the same as the other inquiry. He contacted Lipset and told it was alright to sell with that description. He did offer me a full refund. I invited him into the forum to give his view.<BR><BR>Lee

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12-09-2001, 10:32 AM
Posted By: <b>Lee Behrens</b><p>I received a response from John and sent him a link to the forum. He left me a response, I hope he leaves one himslf in the forum.<BR><BR>I have no ill feelings toward the guy and will bid on his auctions in the future. He has offered me a full refund including postage. I am still trying to decide whether to return the card.<BR><BR>Lee

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12-09-2001, 04:46 PM
Posted By: <b>leon</b><p> and looks like he will do the right thing... ..(which some don't do)...Like I said in my first post.......regards all....

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12-10-2001, 10:48 AM
Posted By: <b>Lee Behrens</b><p>I had a nice conversation with John this morning. He has actually given me a gaurentee for as long has he lives that I could return the card. I have no regrets buying the card, and will continue bidding on his auctions. We had a wonderful conversation that gave me a little history of the card. I hope that no one has got a sour taste in their mouth over this matter about him. I know many of you have had dealings with him in the past to great satisfaction and I'm sure it will be continued in the future.<BR><BR>Lee

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12-10-2001, 12:28 PM
Posted By: <b>runscott</b><p>...

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12-10-2001, 12:54 PM
Posted By: <b>Lee Behrens</b><p>If I die before he does I will be sure to will the card to you Scott.