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10-27-2001, 12:51 PM
Posted By: <b>Lee Behrens</b><p>Hello everyone, I have a fair number of T202s. I have seen cards graded by PSA and SGC, and man are they tough on the grading for most of them. I occasionally sell cards but never provide a grade, just a description. I am not sure how to grade the cards, they have there quirks, miscuts,fold lines, ding on top center (which I have seen graded EX by SGC),print lines. I even have one card that has a fold line in the middle of the center panel (let me know if anyone has seen that before).<BR>I have an SGC 30 Cobb/Moriarity that only has 3 small creases, hardly noticeable and very slightly miscut on the bottom. It is the only graded card I owe because I paid $215 for the card and I have twice as bad go for double the price. <BR>Is there any truth that if you call the grading service that they will tell you why the card was graded in this fashion.<BR>Any help to explain the grading of these beautiful cards would be much appreciated.<BR><BR>Thanks<BR><BR>Lee

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10-27-2001, 02:37 PM
Posted By: <b>Vognar Julie</b><p>That's card no. 7, Birmingham Gets to third. To me, it looked just that--ex-mint. well-centered, good color and register, a really tiny bit of dirt in the creases in the back--and some tiny mark on the back. Nice corners, but at least one showed slight wear.<BR><BR>But I have almost NEVER had any luck buying T202s, except in person. I once called a very reputable dealer in old cards, discussed a T202 for half an hour, and then he sent it to me--no bottom border! When I asked him about this lack, he said "We didn't discuss centering." YAAGH. There are So. MAny. THINGS that could go wrong. When buying them on E-Bay, I ALWAYS ask for a back scan if one isn't provided. And even then, I'm usually a little disappointed.<BR><BR>When I was selling them, I would offer a grade, and then discuss all the various things the buyer would want to know (centering, register, color, corners, condition of folds, extraneous marks. Then, for good measure, I'd add a catagory: Why not a grade higher?<BR><BR>I imagine yuor low grade has to do with the "slight miscut." I know a dealer who knocks down a whole grade for the SLIGHTEST "ski slope" effect--even if I haven't even noticed it.<BR><BR>Call SGC--what harm can it do? <BR><BR>I have 79. Got any duplicates? (I don't)<BR><BR> Julie Vognar

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10-27-2001, 05:02 PM
Posted By: <b>warshawlaw</b><p>The fold line down the middle is common. If you fold the two end panels over the center panel, as was intended, the cards meet at the middle of the center panel. From there, a lot of kids undoubtedly folded the card again to make a standard T-card sized accordian fold. I have had several of these.

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10-27-2001, 09:51 PM
Posted By: <b>vorthian</b><p>&lt;&lt; I have seen cards graded by PSA and SGC, and man are they tough on the grading for most of them. &gt;&gt;<BR><BR>If you don't know how to grade, how can you tell if a company is tough or not?<BR><BR>The reason why PSA and SGC are so "tough" on these cards is that the back folds usually produce spider-web wrinkles that just kill the grade. There was a blazing NM/MT T202 Cobb in a Superior auction over a year ago that a Full Count member won and was slabbed a PSA 4. Nice NM/MT card, huh?<BR><BR>

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10-27-2001, 10:16 PM
Posted By: <b>Vognar Julie</b><p>It wasn't the kids; it was their fathers. Picture grabbing a handful of card out of your cigarette pack. It's got these built-in creases, but when it's stretched out, it's too long to fit in your jacket pocket. Having once opened it, instead of taking the trouble to carefully fold the card back up the way it should be, you shrug and fold the thing in half and cram it in your pocket. <BR>20 years ago, you couldn't find a un-creased center on a T202 in California. i started calling the center crease the western crease. We were pretty dumb back then. At the '88 National in San Francisco I first saw a T205; there were 5 of them, glowing and perfect, lying on some dealer's table--he wqsn't there (all of those eastern dealers vowed never to return to S.F.). I thought, gee, those look beautiful--but I never saw one before, so I'm not about to buy one. I knew T206, T202--and then nothing until Goudy. I'd been collecting since '79.<BR><BR> Julie<BR><BR>

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10-28-2001, 12:57 AM
Posted By: <b>Lee Behrens</b><p>Hi Julie, I do have about 15 duplicates in lower grades, but are very presentable cards. I have bought a couple of lots, the last lot I bought had 20 cards, I thought I needed 8, as it turned out I only needed 5. I have about 70 different, haven't counted exact number latley. If you are interested in trading, let me know.<BR><BR>It sounds like there is a little confusion as to my reference to the card with a center fold line. I line is factory made and has not been creased or folded, it looks like the fold lines on the end panels. I have plenty of T202's with center creases.<BR><BR>

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10-28-2001, 12:15 PM
Posted By: <b>Vognar Julie</b><p>I've never seen a center fold line, factory made, on a T202. But I suppose a man, or a machine, could have made a sheet or two before being stopped. What do they call the machines? Guillotines?<BR><BR>I disagree with whoever said the two normal folds create little creases around them. There's plenty of room, on a mint card, for the card to be completely folded without even breaking the paper on the back folds, let alone creating little creases. So all that leaves to go wrong are printers' lines (several kinds), creases, off-register lithography, "card ik" (that funny transparent mold that grows mainly on T202's, and can only be seen if the light glances off the front--unless it's REALLY thick), uneven borders (centering), miscut borders, ski-slope borders, man-made trim to get sharper corners or more even borders, corner wear, little marks made by people to compensate for lack of numbering, or for other reasons, dirt, especially in the folds, excessive wear around the top and bottom of the folds causing indentation, paper loss from photo or lithograph, under or over-exposed photo prints (very rare, as far as I have seen), missing or obscured print on back... I've probably forgotten a dozen...<BR><BR>Don't need lower grade cards, but thanks anyway.<BR><BR> Julie