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10-18-2001, 03:38 PM
Posted By: <b>leon</b><p>Hey Folks,<BR>I am thinking that Mr. Bob Lemke might read these posts sometimes. I hope he does because if you do read this sir I would like to ask a small favor. Please do some more research on your pricing of valuable vintage cards. Most of them are way low. I see where the price of my PSA 7-T205 Johnson is now worth $1100.00. It was worth more 2 years ago. I believe that that would be far less than half of what the market really is. Your Just So series states something like $1000.00 in vg. although I sold one on ebay (for a loss) a few months ago for $8100.00. There are literally thousands of other situations like this too. While some prices are right on target and some are very close many are so far off base they are a joke. If anyone would like to shed some light on this subject I will again quote Ross Perot, "I am all ears"......by the way that was ironic and funny when he made the statement because if you see ole Ross he IS actually ALL EARS. Lastly I will state for the record that the SCD is the best resource out there, by far, I just wish the pricing was a little closer to on target. best regards all.....

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10-18-2001, 04:45 PM
Posted By: <b>HalleyGator</b><p>I also have a PSA T205 Walter Johnson card ... and the latest SMR price of $3,850 is much more accurate.<BR><BR>

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10-18-2001, 10:57 PM
Posted By: <b>Kevin Cummings</b><p>Although I do not yet have my own SCD big book to peruse, I am told the prices of Old Judges have gone up to reflect the increased recognition of the scarcity/demand for 19th century issues.<BR><BR>But $4000 for a Harry Stovey? That <b><u>has</u></b> to be a misprint!

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10-19-2001, 08:21 AM
Posted By: <b>Bob Lemke</b><p>Hello Kevin, I don't know where you got your information, but in the 2002 Standard Catalog of Baseball Cards Stovey is listed in NM at $1,500 (hands on knees) and $2,000 (with bat). Hope this helps.

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10-19-2001, 08:26 AM
Posted By: <b>Bob Lemke</b><p>Hello Leon,<BR>You need a new issue of Graded Card Price Guide . . . The T205 Johnson is currently listed at $1,900 in PSA 7. Prices in the big book are "messed up" because it is an annual. To get that many pages into print requires pricing be "frozen" by mid-year. We go with what we've got. Anybody who has bona fide information or informed opinions about card values is welcome to submit such to me. <BR>

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10-19-2001, 08:47 AM
Posted By: <b>Jay Miller</b><p>Bob--How (and why) do you differentiate in value between the various poses of a particular player in the Old Judge series? If we were talking about a particularly rare pose--like Walsh white uniform--then I wouldunderstand this, but the Stovey poses do not fit into this category and should be priced equally.

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10-19-2001, 09:11 AM
Posted By: <b>leon</b><p>Hello Mr.Lemke,<BR>I appeciate your response and understand. Some of us that collect the rare, scarce, obscure sets probably are able to spend more time on them than ya'll do. I am sure it comes down to where ya'll get the most information for the masses. Us vintage folks might not be the masses but there are some that have been doing this many years (not me yet) and would appreciate a little more accurate pricing. You could start by putting the Just So series at about 8k in vg....that is still a very low conservative price but I can show you 3-4 different sales in the last year where these brought this much. I do not want to sell my T205 PSA7 Johnson but I think it would be agreed that if you put a NM price of $3500.00 you would be very close to actual (market) value. I will make it a point to go through the big book over the next weeks and get with you on the subject. I will try to have examples for justification. I will again state that the "big book" SCD is the best out there and we appreciate you for it. As always ...best regards

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10-19-2001, 11:40 AM
Posted By: <b>Todd (nolemmings)</b><p>Leon, I thought you were a collector first and foremost:). I am, and I would prefer that the prices stay listed on the low side. I have no present intent to sell (many years until my daughter gets into college), so sales value is of marginal importance to me. I have found several very good deals, particularly at shows, from dealers who seem "bound to the book", and who are otherwise unfamiliar with many issues or the cards they contain. As for other dealers, let's face it, how many times have you heard the spiel about how the book is so out of whack, or "throw the book out on this one", etc. In some case, they're justified in saying this, but many times they just use it as an excuse to jerk up the price. Personally, I believe that if the prices were more accurately adjusted upward, the same speech would be given, and an upward price spiral would occur. I know all the drivel about how the market will adjust, and how eventually prices will go down if the market does not support them, but from a collector's standpoint, I need my gratification (a/k/a fix)now! <b>Leon, can you help me on this one? Leave the SCD guy alone!!!!</b> (no offense Mr. Lemke)

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10-19-2001, 12:57 PM
Posted By: <b>leon</b><p>Hey Todd,<BR>You make a good point . The dealers use the spiel "you can throw the guides out on this one" so I absolutely agree with you. On the other hand they will use the same guide when they are buying as to get the best cost and NOT use the spiel. The fact is that you CAN throw the guides out on a lot of them. That is my point. The guys that live and die by the book are, in my avid-amateur opinion, few and far between and will still say whatever they want to. Seems like the dealers ALWAYS do what is best for them, which they should, but that involves using the addage or not depending on if they are buying or selling. In my brief 5 years of collecting (I have only ever sold 2 cards so I am a "true" collector although will probably sell a few more soon to buy others) I have seen almost every case of the dealer using whatever sales technique they can to make the most money. If the guide were more accurate then you could NOT throw the guides out. I don't really want to start any argument and do see your points. All things considered I would still like the guide to be more accurate. Of course, as usual, I may be the ONLY one with this opinion. Maybe I will just help Mr. Lemke with some pic's of cards he does not have and a few uncatalogued cards....like the pic of my 1886 New York Baseball Club card and the M101 Holmes-to-Homes card that is not even listed......on the positive side I see they included the "Martens Bakery" D304.....nice job !!! Happy collecting and best regards ps....would like to hear some other thoughts on whether or not the price guide being more accurate would be good or bad..

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10-19-2001, 03:49 PM
Posted By: <b>Bob Lemke</b><p>Hello Jay, Often the use of pose descriptions in the N172 listings "disguise" cards which may have been in one series or another that is either scracer or more popularly collected. I have been contemplating a complete revamp of the Old Judge listings in SCBC but it is a project currently on the back burner. I'd welcome input from Old Judge collectors on how they'd like to see the N172 listed for greatest utility both to existing collectors and newcomers.

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10-20-2001, 03:33 PM
Posted By: <b>Lee Behrens</b><p>This is great discussion on a topic, and it is nice to see the bickkering that had gone on is pretty much gone. Back to the Subject, Price guides are what they say They are GUIDES! No one has forced any of us to pay any more than we wanted to for cards. If you are selling and put a minimum bid on the item and it gets no bids, I guess you have over estimated the value of the item to other people. I think when you are buying you like to feel that you got a good deal when all is said and done. It comes back to the old adiage "It's only worth what someone will pay for it".<BR>Great discusion board!!! I still would like to know if anyone out there knows of anyone else that has a T205 Mathewson with a Cycle back. Thanks

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10-21-2001, 12:15 AM
Posted By: <b>Vognar Julie</b><p>Alphabetically, with as many poses for each player as you can authenticate, with a price following each listed pose. How else? For instance, it's nice that you acknowledge a Radbourn in NM should sell for $4,500--but it's too bad you don't say that's only the portrait. Other Radbourns would be cheaper. It's nice that you acknowledge a Hoy in NM might sell for $1500 (instead of $600, or $425), but Hoys in all sorts of conditions have been selling for $1500 for 2 years now. <BR><BR>On the other hand, why did you double the price of the Allegheny cards?<BR><BR>Oh heck, they new guide is always interesting.<BR><BR> Julie

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10-21-2001, 12:57 AM
Posted By: <b>Jaime Leiderman</b><p>Alphabetically with all the poses.<BR>Didn't SCBC had this kind of checklist on last pages of old issues?<BR><BR>As a N172 collector and 19th Century card researcher, I'm pretty jealous that sets like Jay Publishing Photos (lot less popular than N172), take more space to cover all variations.<BR><BR>And now that we can write our sugestions, how's the possibility to write the exact name of the auction sale when noted on extremely rare issues descriptions?<BR><BR>JMHO<BR><BR>Jaime<BR><BR>

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10-21-2001, 07:45 AM
Posted By: <b>Kevin Cummings</b><p>Bob:<BR><BR>It's great your are participating on the board - thanks!<BR><BR>The Stovey prices you quoted in your post are for the N173 cabinets. The $4000 price for the N172 is right there on page 260 in all its glory making Stovey more valuable than even King Kelly or Harry Wright.<BR><BR>As for the other prices, I agree with Todd - in your next issue, please report <b>only</b> the price increases of the cards I already own and report price decreases of the ones I am looking for! <img src="/images/happy.gif" height=14 width=14><BR><BR>Seriously, the pose-by-pose and team variation listing you had in the 1998 issue was great (I actually tore those pages out and saved them when I saw the 2000 version <b>didn't</b> have them). Prices for each variation - noting rarities and pricing accordingly - would make the Old Judge listing <font color = red><b><u>spectacular</u></b></font>!

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10-21-2001, 12:15 PM
Posted By: <b>Anonymous</b><p>Sorry I missed that; I was quoting the cabinets. Virtually all significant price increases you see for particular players in Old Judge (N172 and 173)are the result of bona fide auction sales (and we almost never increase the book value to the full price realized on a single auction appearance). As for listing/pricing every "pose" variation from the master list . . . that's not practical, if it's even possible. Most of those variations are the result of presence or absence of a comma, spelling of team with or without an "s" on the end, etc. All in all it's about 5,000 listings.I think a judicious combing through of that list to limit it to actual team changes and pose variations might work.