T206 Wagner - what grade would you receive?

[brianp-beme]

What grade do you think you would receive if you sent this card into a TPG?

I think I would never get higher than a 1 no matter how many times I sent it in.

Brian

[sb1]

That particular card has been in a PSA 2 holder for many years. It traded well below $100K at one time. To your point, I do not think it would grade 2 if newly sent in today.

[Bigdaddy]

I don't think it's so much who sends it in as who is on the front of the card.

Simply amazing what the TPGs peddle, and we (the hobby) keep throwing money at them like baseballs at batting practice.

[hcv123]

I don't think it's so much who sends it in as who is on the front of the card.

Simply amazing what the TPGs peddle, and we (the hobby) keep throwing money at them like baseballs at batting practice.

+1

[PhillyFan1883]

Hard 1 if this was graded now raw.

[glynparson]

Old grade. Like it or not standards have changed. Had you sent it in when this one was you’d have gotten a 2 now you’d most likely get a one. Every single company that has been around for any amount of time in the grading business has tightened their standards. You can like it or hate it but it is what it is.

[philliesfan]

If it was mine, I would get "Not Authentic".
If it was someone else's, they would get at least a 1.
Bob

[Rhotchkiss]

As we learned from the “A” that recently sold in Heritage for $2.5mm, grade is not so relevant to value with this card.

[rats60]

As we learned from the “A” that recently sold in Heritage for $2.5mm, grade is not so relevant to value with this card.

In a rising market timing is everything. That card sold at the peak of the hype. There was new money being thrown around. Now that the new money has been burned, prices are settling down. PSA 10 Jordan RC sold for 738k with several 600k+ sales. Now sales are in the 300k range with a 288k sale.

If that Wagner sold today, it would sell for much less. That card had at least 4 places of paper loss on the face of the card. A much nicer one sold for less a two months later.

[Rhotchkiss]

We will never know, but I think if that A sold today it would still fetch close to $2mm with the provenance. And the ugly 2 that is topic of this thread just shattered records at $3.6mm. While the market is no doubt cooling, I think the t206 wagner is Teflon and mostly unaffected

[rand1com]

Agreed. As long as wealthy collectors need the Wagner to complete the set or investors with unlimited money want to have one, record prices will be recorded. This is an ugly 2. I agree it gets a 1 in today's grading world but if it comes back on the market two years down the road it sells for more than it did this time IMO.

[G1911]

Standards have changed over time, but I don't recall a time when a card with this much damage would normally, and be expected, to slab as a 2.

Not that it matters much, how picky can one be about a Wagner?

[sportscardpete]

In a rising market timing is everything. That card sold at the peak of the hype. There was new money being thrown around. Now that the new money has been burned, prices are settling down. PSA 10 Jordan RC sold for 738k with several 600k+ sales. Now sales are in the 300k range with a 288k sale.

If that Wagner sold today, it would sell for much less. That card had at least 4 places of paper loss on the face of the card. A much nicer one sold for less a two months later.

I don't know if the Wagner is subject to the same volatility as the Jordan.

[rats60]

We will never know, but I think if that A sold today it would still fetch close to $2mm with the provenance. And the ugly 2 that is topic of this thread just shattered records at $3.6mm. While the market is no doubt cooling, I think the t206 wagner is Teflon and mostly unaffected

I agree that it could do 2 million, but that is a 500k loss. That ugly 2 bringing 3.6 million just shows how important the 2 is rather than a 1 or 1.5. Rare cards like a Wagner aren't going to be hurt as badly by a cooling market, but new money seeing 6 figure losses is going to cause a pull back across the board. The Jordan RC is just the extreme example.

[Rhotchkiss]

I don't know if the Wagner is subject to the same volatility as the Jordan.

+1

[perezfan]

They are grading much tougher these days for the typical collector. But if submitted by the right people (Memory Lane, SCP, Mile High, etc.), I bet they'd still get the "2".

I wonder what grade they'd give Kendrick's sheet-cut Wagner, if it was re-submitted under their wonderful "guarantee"? Would they be willing to admit to the entire world what everyone else already knows?

[rats60]

They are grading much tougher these days for the typical collector. But if submitted by the right people (Memory Lane, SCP, Mile High, etc.), I bet they'd still get the "2".

I wonder what grade they'd give Kendrick's sheet-cut Wagner, if it was re-submitted under their wonderful "guarantee"? Would they be willing to admit to the entire world what everyone else already knows?

They aren't regrading any of the sheet cut cards that they graded the first 10+ years of their existance. They would be out billions of dollars.

[chriskim]

FYI.... Goldin estimated that Wagner PSA-2 was a $5Mil card.

[Leon]

The card shown is clearly a 1 by todays standards. Generous grade.

.

[darwinbulldog]

Don't be silly, guys. Centering is what really matters. This card should be submitted for a half-grade bump.

[metroac]

Did anyone else find the description of the card at Goldin's to be as utterly ridiculous as I did? Complete hogwash.

"Graded GD 2 by PSA. Hall of Famer. "Sweet Caporal - 150 Subjects/Factory No. 25" back. Offered here is a visually inspiring, properly authenticated and numerically graded specimen of this great rarity. Technically speaking, this compelling item – which was purchased by our consignor's father during the 1960s/70s for his personal collection – is in the correct holder, but that's only part of its story. No grade can adequately describe the magic inherent in the Wagner portrait's gaze (seen here with full clarity), or the holistic mystique of its overall appearance. Yes, there are faults, taking the form of spaced, horizontal creases, a small smudge or two, and the expected corner wear, but the item's intangibles are completely unbothered. Somehow, all of the piece's truly important features remain clear and attractive, and its Sweet Caporal reverse is legible in its dramatic, crimson-printed entirety. Other well-circulated copies of this fabled card have emerged in the hobby's past, and have received an equivalent numerical grade, but this Wagner is superior to virtually all of those challengers. Its surface faults' auspicious intervals have largely spared this T206's portrait area, its centering is admirable and its integrity of presentation is fabulous. Every card has its tales, and this one brings more to the table than most. Somehow, the past's cumulative traces only add to this wonderful collectible's wealth of personality. Here, waiting, is someone's future, prized possession, and it will be that person's own cherished, one-name treasure. Good condition."

[brianp-beme]

Hogwash has been washed out of my condensed version of their description:


"Graded GD 2 by PSA. Hall of Famer. "Sweet Caporal - 150 Subjects/Factory No. 25" back. Offered here is a properly authenticated and numerically graded specimen of this great rarity which was purchased by our consignor's father during the 1960s/70s for his personal collection. There are faults, taking the form of spaced, horizontal creases, a small smudge or two, and the expected corner wear. Other well-circulated copies of this fabled card have emerged in the hobby's past, and have received an equivalent numerical grade. Every card has its tales, and this one brings more to the table than most."

Brian

[Vintageclout]

We will never know, but I think if that A sold today it would still fetch close to $2mm with the provenance. And the ugly 2 that is topic of this thread just shattered records at $3.6mm. While the market is no doubt cooling, I think the t206 wagner is Teflon and mostly unaffected

+1 - spot on accurate Ryan! Premium rarity always seems to rise above standard market conditions. And just for the record, while pricing has somewhat cooled down a bit, it still remains way above its previous levels. There will be additional pricing spikes in the near future - especially for high-end vintage.

[mq711]

PSA would give me the old “questionable authentic,” without providing any reason why. Facebook responses would say ”fake,” because too well centered, edges too white and corners evenly damaged. Would have to send it to an AH where it would come back a 1.5.

[troutbum97]

Check out this doozy.

This "auction house" should be annihilated:

https://www.liveauctioneers.com/item/106246875_rare-1909-honus-wagner-t206-tobacco-baseball-card

[drcy]

Check out this doozy.

This "auction house" should be annihilated:

https://www.liveauctioneers.com/item/106246875_rare-1909-honus-wagner-t206-tobacco-baseball-card

Check out the other cards being offered and you get an idea

https://p1.liveauctioneers.com/6629/207292/105467505_1_x.jpg?auto=webp&format=pjpg&quality=80&version=1623537918

[bbcard1]

I'd probably get a "Ques Authen"

[drcy]

I'd probably get a "Ques Authen"

Is that French?

[troutbum97]

[QUOTE=drcy;2116345]Check out the other cards being offered and you get an idea

I raised the question of the T206 Wagner authenticity with them & included a link to a recent T206 Wagner auction on Heritage. The "auction house" was gracious enough to reply: :rolleyes:



As per your link,

"Most experts today calculate the full population of surviving T206 Wagners at about five dozen, thirty-six of which are housed in the slab of the hobby's leading grading service."

So this claims there are still 24 that are not accounted for. We have a high expertise of staff with over 70 combined years experience in the space that have come from companies such as Goldin, Sotheby's and Juliens Auctions.

Again please check our reviews. I have attached screenshots of the review tab and as you can see Heritage have many many 1 star negative reviews and we have zero. We have very strict rules as to what can enter our sales and this shows by our customer experience.

Our advice to bidders is always to question anything you are not comfortable with so we appreciate you brining it to our attention. If you are not comfortable with this lot then please do not bid, but do note that we guarantee all products we sell are 100% real and offer full refunds if they do not pass PSA or Beckett verification.

Please let me know If you have any other questions.

Thank you.
Jessica
Activity Team

[steve B]

[QUOTE=drcy;2116345]Check out the other cards being offered and you get an idea

I raised the question of the T206 Wagner authenticity with them & included a link to a recent T206 Wagner auction on Heritage. The "auction house" was gracious enough to reply: :rolleyes:



As per your link,

"Most experts today calculate the full population of surviving T206 Wagners at about five dozen, thirty-six of which are housed in the slab of the hobby's leading grading service."

So this claims there are still 24 that are not accounted for. We have a high expertise of staff with over 70 combined years experience in the space that have come from companies such as Goldin, Sotheby's and Juliens Auctions.

Again please check our reviews. I have attached screenshots of the review tab and as you can see Heritage have many many 1 star negative reviews and we have zero. We have very strict rules as to what can enter our sales and this shows by our customer experience.

Our advice to bidders is always to question anything you are not comfortable with so we appreciate you brining it to our attention. If you are not comfortable with this lot then please do not bid, but do note that we guarantee all products we sell are 100% real and offer full refunds if they do not pass PSA or Beckett verification.

Please let me know If you have any other questions.

Thank you.
Jessica
Activity Team



You'd think that with all that expertise someone, anyone? Could take a passably decent picture, or even a scan.

[rats60]

[QUOTE=drcy;2116345]Check out the other cards being offered and you get an idea

I raised the question of the T206 Wagner authenticity with them & included a link to a recent T206 Wagner auction on Heritage. The "auction house" was gracious enough to reply: :rolleyes:



As per your link,

"Most experts today calculate the full population of surviving T206 Wagners at about five dozen, thirty-six of which are housed in the slab of the hobby's leading grading service."

So this claims there are still 24 that are not accounted for. We have a high expertise of staff with over 70 combined years experience in the space that have come from companies such as Goldin, Sotheby's and Juliens Auctions.

Again please check our reviews. I have attached screenshots of the review tab and as you can see Heritage have many many 1 star negative reviews and we have zero. We have very strict rules as to what can enter our sales and this shows by our customer experience.

Our advice to bidders is always to question anything you are not comfortable with so we appreciate you brining it to our attention. If you are not comfortable with this lot then please do not bid, but do note that we guarantee all products we sell are 100% real and offer full refunds if they do not pass PSA or Beckett verification.

Please let me know If you have any other questions.

Thank you.
Jessica
Activity Team



Working for an auction house doesn't mean they know anything about cards. They say they will refund your money after PSA tells them it is fake. What does PSA charge for that service and will they refund that? Who is going to sell a 2 million dollar card ungraded and see it sell for a few thousand? What reputable auction house isn't going to get the card graded so they can get their percent of a 2 million dollar sale?

[Mark17]

Hogwash has been washed out of my condensed version of their description:


"Graded GD 2 by PSA. Hall of Famer. "Sweet Caporal - 150 Subjects/Factory No. 25" back. Offered here is a properly authenticated and numerically graded specimen of this great rarity which was purchased by our consignor's father during the 1960s/70s for his personal collection. There are faults, taking the form of spaced, horizontal creases, a small smudge or two, and the expected corner wear. Other well-circulated copies of this fabled card have emerged in the hobby's past, and have received an equivalent numerical grade. Every card has its tales, and this one brings more to the table than most."

BrianI desperately wish AH would describe their items like this, without all the literary BS. I think a lot of people who do the write-ups are really full of themselves. When I bid on an auction, I want to know its condition, whether it's original or altered/repaired/restored, and if there is interesting provenance, that too. That's it. I don't need a sales pitch nor do I need a biography of the player.

[theuclakid]

absolutely no better than a 1 today...that was graded many years ago obviously and standards have tightened more than once since then...but a Wagner is a Wagner....I had a chance to buy half a one from no other than Mr. Barry Sloate over 35 years ago but passed...Barry, remember?...maybe not as it was a long time ago...

Bruce Perry