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Snapolit1
04-19-2021, 01:33 PM
A serious question I think about many times reading the board.

If you are one of those people who looks at the hobby and sees fraud at every turn, and chastises others for looking the other way and not caring as much as you think they should, why are YOU still in the hobby? If the negativity is that pervasive and has ruined everything, wouldn't it make sense to find another hobby that makes you a happier person?

I know we are live with this fraud thing hanging over the hobby to some degree. But if it the joy is gone for you, why stick around? Fraud is pervasive in the art world and all over the place. If just a source of great angst, why torture yourself?

rhettyeakley
04-19-2021, 01:39 PM
Just because you hate fraud in a hobby that you love doesn’t mean you can’t still find some joy and excitement. It usually just requires a slight shift in focus.

I stick around because I love the hobby and it was my passion long before i realized how pervasive the fraud in the hobby really is. All that said, fraud has been happening longer than I have been collecting.

drcy
04-19-2021, 01:47 PM
I don't collect anymore, but do follow the items and hobby. So I observe the hobby issues from afar. Mostly, I sold off all my stuff, and never really gotten around to collecting again. Maybe someday.

I never submitted a card to a grader, and owned a total of perhaps five graded cards in my entire life. I never had an interest in high-grade items anyway. Though I also dealt with autographs and game-used that came with LOAs and their own set of issues.

RL
04-19-2021, 01:48 PM
whenever there is a chance to make "easy money" fraud rears its ugly head.

packs
04-19-2021, 01:51 PM
I think it's natural for you to want something you enjoy to be enjoyable and to get upset when outsiders are making it impossible to enjoy whatever it is. It would make me even more upset if someone told me I should just stop enjoying something I like. I don't agree with that philosophy.

It's kind of like when someone says "if you don't like it here, why don't you leave?" I always think the same thing when I hear that. Why can't it be nice here instead?

Jewish-collector
04-19-2021, 02:11 PM
Other hobbies like photography, gardening, playing sports, etc,... are more about techniques and skill rather than money. There are some expenses to them of course, but not to the degree of sports cards and memorabilia. Our hobby we all love has fraud, of course. If you're a low end collector like myself, you have to find other aspects of this hobby that give you happiness and enjoyment.

boneheadandrube
04-19-2021, 02:37 PM
A serious question I think about many times reading the board.

If you are one of those people who looks at the hobby and sees fraud at every turn, and chastises others for looking the other way and not caring as much as you think they should, why are YOU still in the hobby? If the negativity is that pervasive and has ruined everything, wouldn't it make sense to find another hobby that makes you a happier person?

I know we are live with this fraud thing hanging over the hobby to some degree. But if it the joy is gone for you, why stick around? Fraud is pervasive in the art world and all over the place. If just a source of great angst, why torture yourself?


I think, for some people that the drama of exposing fraud and subsequent finger pointing have become part of their hobby. You can get attention online (if your not blocked or ignored) and praise for "being the one to expose", even if its only the same 5-6 people who cheer you on every time. There's probably even a little feel good from virtue signaling to others because they are part of the problem for persisting on with collecting. It might say more about ones personal life to be this way if it does become their main connection to the hobby. Just my opinion.

Peter_Spaeth
04-19-2021, 03:31 PM
I think, for some people that the drama of exposing fraud and subsequent finger pointing have become part of their hobby. You can get attention online (if your not blocked or ignored) and praise for "being the one to expose", even if its only the same 5-6 people who cheer you on every time. There's probably even a little feel good from virtue signaling to others because they are part of the problem for persisting on with collecting. It might say more about ones personal life to be this way if it does become their main connection to the hobby. Just my opinion.

Speaking for myself and more importantly the guys I know on Blowout, to the extent you may be talking about us, that's an absolute crock of psychobabble. Nobody craves any drama or attention. It's done from a sincere desire to contribute as best we can to informing people and maybe, just maybe, helping in some small way to keep a lid on it.

Peter_Spaeth
04-19-2021, 03:42 PM
As to my friend Steve's original question, the answer is pretty simple. If you love something, you don't let fraudsters drive you away from it, you adapt. Do people abandon their families when they become a source of angst? Mostly not.

Casey2296
04-19-2021, 03:53 PM
Dishonesty in any industry is always damaging, from Joe six-pack all the way up to the Elite collector, but is really damaging to the people in the hobby who conduct themselves with integrity and honesty. They get painted with the broad brush of Fraud along with the scumbags. The collector trust is broken on a large scale and turns into a guilty until proven innocent dynamic. I'd love to see how fast this industry sobers up if you sent a couple of folks to jail for even a couple of years, or if some company had to pay a large settlement in a class action lawsuit. Ruin the lives of a few shady characters in the hobby and they'll run to the darkness like the cockroaches they are. Will it happen? probably not, but count me in for bringing the popcorn if it does, so honest folk can enjoy watching them squirm while they role over on each other.

Personally, I applaud the efforts of Peter & the guys over at Blowout. Doing the Lord's work IMO.

rjackson44
04-19-2021, 04:12 PM
Hi steve fraud will never end ,,art ,stocks ,cards ,sneakers,its been going in for 100s of years ,,never will it end ,,

Aquarian Sports Cards
04-19-2021, 04:14 PM
I'd love to see how fast this industry sobers up if you sent a couple of folks to jail for even a couple of years. Ruin the lives of a few shady characters in the hobby and they'll run to the darkness like the cockroaches they are.

Like Bill Mastro, Doug Allen, John Rogers etc.? Didn't see much in the way of sobering up.

Brian Van Horn
04-19-2021, 04:16 PM
"Fraud in the Hobby"

Redundant many the time.

Wimberleycardcollector
04-19-2021, 04:18 PM
There is fraud in many of my hobbies - cards, vintage autos and vintage toys like Star Wars and GI Joe. Like someone said when big money gets involved it just happens. There is always someone just out to make a few bucks at the expense of others. I've always shrugged it off and made sure I am as educated as I can be when purchasing items, particularly big ticket items. It is just a part of life and you can constantly complain or work hard to make sure you know what you are doing by reading and staying connected to online communities like this one that constantly educate and make folks aware of shysters.

Casey2296
04-19-2021, 04:20 PM
Like Bill Mastro, Doug Allen, John Rogers etc.? Didn't see much in the way of sobering up.

The only way to move an elephant is to keep pushing, keep throwing them into jail, throw their wives and kids into jail too on conspiracy charges, they wont stick but if you've ever spent a night in jail you tend to reflect on your life a bit. Make it so painful to be dishonest that they'll think twice next time.

Peter_Spaeth
04-19-2021, 04:30 PM
Like Bill Mastro, Doug Allen, John Rogers etc.? Didn't see much in the way of sobering up.

Yeah, I'm not sure broadly speaking how much people who commit crimes are ever deterred by punishment to others. I think it may be inherent in the fraudster's character to think he is smarter and will get away with it.

Parenthetically, for me anyhow, talking to people with no apparent ethics (as I have in this hobby) can be downright disturbing. But it does give you insight into their character and conduct.

Johnny630
04-19-2021, 04:34 PM
I believe the card doctors get a thrill over coning people.....this will never stop.

Exhibitman
04-19-2021, 04:35 PM
Bottom line: most of the people I meet are good folks who enjoy similar interests and are fun to socialize with, and I still enjoy my collection. When that is not the case, I will walk away. Until then, I just try to steer clear of the worst aspects and worst asshats in the hobby.

Peter_Spaeth
04-19-2021, 04:46 PM
I believe the card doctors get a thrill over coning people.....this will never stop.

What's really galling is how some will con people who consider them friends. But this is the way of the criminal I suppose.

Johnny630
04-19-2021, 05:46 PM
What's really galling is how some will con people who consider them friends. But this is the way of the criminal I suppose.

Agree ! It’s so slime ball ! I believe what goes around comes around, being honest and fair with people has always suited me well.

perezfan
04-19-2021, 05:48 PM
A serious question I think about many times reading the board.

If you are one of those people who looks at the hobby and sees fraud at every turn, and chastises others for looking the other way and not caring as much as you think they should, why are YOU still in the hobby? If the negativity is that pervasive and has ruined everything, wouldn't it make sense to find another hobby that makes you a happier person?

I know we are live with this fraud thing hanging over the hobby to some degree. But if it the joy is gone for you, why stick around? Fraud is pervasive in the art world and all over the place. If just a source of great angst, why torture yourself?

It could be argued that the more you dislike and oppose fraud in the hobby, the more you love the hobby and want to protect it.

If you did not love the hobby or were apathetic to the molestation of cards for huge profits, then the fraud would probably not make your radar screen.

The people profiting from (and authenticating) fraud love the monetary aspect of the hobby. Those opposing fraud and corrupt practices love the hobby for what it is.

And when you love something, you do not stand by silently to watch it fall apart.

Tao_Moko
04-19-2021, 06:04 PM
Bitching about fraudulent practices that impact your hobby shouldn't mean you have to leave it. What sense does that make? Those who expose it are doing a service to the hobby.

dio
04-19-2021, 06:10 PM
There is fraud in wall street
Basically everything in this world there is fraud if there's money involve

Snapolit1
04-19-2021, 06:47 PM
There is fraud in wall street
Basically everything in this world there is fraud if there's money involve

I agree. Just watched the documentary on WeWorks.

Guy was charged with an incredible fraud and walked away with a severance of $1.8 billion.

Snapolit1
04-19-2021, 06:49 PM
Bitching about fraudulent practices that impact your hobby shouldn't mean you have to leave it. What sense does that make? Those who expose it are doing a service to the hobby.

But when you shake your fist at others and say constantly "how stupid are you guys to stay involved with this bullshit" . . . at the same time that you stay involved with it all . . . that's the part I struggle with . . .

glchen
04-19-2021, 06:49 PM
Since I am back to the hobby in 2010, there has been fraud in the hobby. Whether it's shill bidding, counterfeits, etc, it's been everywhere. I think it's still really important to know what's going on and trying to educate yourself as much as possible, so that you can make the best decisions on what to buy and whether what you are buying is the item that you are expecting it to be. You can still enjoy the hobby with all that going. Frankly for me, I'm more discouraged by the crazy prices going on than the fraud. The fraud I can try to avoid, but the prices is more difficult. It's like when I was a kid when I couldn't afford a lot of stuff that I wanted to buy.

rainier2004
04-19-2021, 06:57 PM
I dont know, we have all been worried about fraud since I started collecting 37 years ago. But the hobby has changed so much since then, its hard to compare times. I would bring up the possibility that TPGs have just increased fraud and not limited it in any way. And today is the same as 37 years ago, if you dont enjoy collecting whatever your focus is anymore you find something else...but eventually you rn out of things to shift to.

But TPGs have given a a false sense of security to collectors. People do not spend the time holding the cards and browsing thru them like we used to when shows were every weekend. You always bought beaters to educate yourself with, dip that toe into the water before taking the plunge. But these steps are skipped now with all the holders, same holders that prevent a "collector" from feeling a card, its thickness, texture and even smell. Now people drops 10's and 100's of thousands of dollars within months of entering.

The best way to defend yourself is still educating yourself. Blindly trusting a TPG with this much money just seems odd to me. And no, they arent the best at grading and detecting worked cards. People that have sat at home with their loupes, scan a card at 1200 dpi, handled 100s of the issue are just as good if not better. I handled 2-3000 CJs thru the years, I dont need a TPG to tell me what to look for.

But if the worry of fraud becomes to much then its just time to go and that sucks...but we should still be educating ourselves. If you dont know reach out to a member, super easy way to make a hobby buddy and very rarely has that person not responded to me. Its just part of it, a fun part of IMO.

CurtisFlood
04-19-2021, 07:11 PM
whenever there is a chance to make "easy money" fraud rears its ugly head.

You said it for me. My exact thoughts. Reminds me of the late eighties and early nineties with all the easy money. Many of these guys are more sophisticated in their schemes. You have to have your guard up at all times.

68Hawk
04-19-2021, 07:23 PM
I kind of understand where the heart of this question comes from....
If all of this place we share and talk about the hobby is 'stunk' with talk of fraud and wrongdoing, much of the pleasure is stolen.

The question is, does the endless dissecting of the problems do anything other than share misery and reduce joy in what should be a fun/pleasant distraction from Life's more serious requirements?

If the hobby set up a 'complaints corner', with a couple true expert and motivated hobby cops versed in law and available to give free of their time to the pursuit, where discovery of fraud was brought and was left in the hands of those same to execute whatever was really feasible, perhaps we could then shift more focus to the cards and what they mean to us??

I mean, what gets talked about here doesn't really do anything, right?
For real action, the knowledge needs to be acted upon.
Here it's really just kvetching.

I can understand why the OP and others might get tired of it, and why it's a downer to their hobby time. It's not because they don't know of the serious issues, or don't want to know, but because of the 'end of the earth' laments that trail each posting and thread on the topic.
And also because the idea of extending further questioning of ALL cards and condition regardless of accuracy of thought, so that only those precious few who think their sanctified collecting of lower grade cards can be true and honest, is plain tiresome.
For all the messed with nice condition cards, I as a hobbyist am sure there are innumerable 'right' cards that are beautiful and high end simply because they were put away at the time of collecting.

And yet now ALL these nice cards I"m being told are fake nice.
The leap from wrongdoing on one level to wrongdoing everywhere is just debilitating to any real joy in collecting, much as the OP is wondering.

G1911
04-19-2021, 08:03 PM
I collect in a way to avoid the fraud, drama, and garbage that comes with any hobby in which peoples financial stakes are such that ethics are easily shoved aside. The prevalent fraud is more annoying than personally affecting. In 20 years I've yet to be scammed. I'm sure it will happen one day.

I buy low grade. There's not a graded card or sharp corner in sight. Heck, there's not even a plastic sleeve in sight at all most of the time.

I don't buy mega expensive cards that if it turns out it's altered and suddenly worthless, I just lost the downpayment on a house. Every penny spent is treated as money lost, beer money without the liver damage.

I focus on rarities, cards and master sets I like that scammers are generally not targeting, or for which the scams are blatantly obvious. I have as much fun outside of Baseball as in it.

I trade with fellow collectors who think alike and am friends with outside the cards alone whenever possible. Swapping $10 of cards back and forth whenever we can help each other isn't liable to produce fraud.

I operate with the philosophy that if it doesn't make sense, don't buy it. Cards from 1910 shouldn't be NM-MT condition. Legitimate signed cards of players who died before autographed card collecting was popular exist in tiny, tiny numbers. For every card undersized and unaltered there should be a roughly equal number of oversized ones.

I have a great time researching my tobacco sets, putting together the mysteries and unknowns, check listing master sets, the minutia that altering doesn't affect and doesn't even cost a cent.

No one is altering fair grade T42's, making copies of T220's, trimming 1971 Topps cards in Good with a crease. And if they are, since I don't care about condition and just enjoy the images and building sets, it doesn't really matter to me. If it turns out my t206 common with 18 creases was trimmed, oh well. I hate the fraud, but I have a grand time with the hobby. I'm not going to make money, but I have a good time and good friends in the hobby. that's enough. If you avoid the areas of the hobby that are dominated by scammers and for which it can be reasonably expected that that will be prevalent (which would you focus on if you were an unethical scammer, $20,000 cards or $2 ones?), it's as much fun as it has ever been, in some ways better than ever.

Fuddjcal
04-19-2021, 08:22 PM
But when you shake your fist at others and say constantly "how stupid are you guys to stay involved with this bullshit" . . . at the same time that you stay involved with it all . . . that's the part I struggle with . . .

Stop struggling. People are inherently assholes. Look at all the dickwads around you..... Flip, flop, pop. You try and tell them it's a billion dollar fraud (which we all know it is) and not only do you/they want to argue about it, you want to support the known criminals. :D:D:D:D I just have always found it fascinating.

It's no skin off of my ass but it does affect me like a festering boil somewhat. Itches and hurts for a while but then it pops. It's mostly funny as I watch America deteriorate. I could give 3 shits about it. Like others, if I can help 1 person not get scammed it's all worth it. Much like I felt about calling out autograph forgers and other losers trying to game the system. Just a bad gene pool a piss poor upbringing. I feel bad for the honest guy trying to make it of which there are many here including yourself. I have 10 lifelong friends I have beers with every 2 weeks. Many of us have our own business making 100's of thousands per year. Guess how many of the guys try and fuck other people? ZERO. Guess how many guys try and pick up the bill? All of them.

I love the way the cards look and what can be done to them. Please Forgive me if I just don't like people getting rich off of scamming others. I made my fortuney the old fashioned way with out fucking people and with integrity. I was taught to try and stand for something and to try and help others. I just try to enjoy the hobby I loved for 50 years. So don't struggle, really...I don't lose a minute of sleep and continue to enjoy what I have been blessed to collect over the years. While trying not to take it too far up the ass by the multi level shysters "investors" in the "Business". Good luck to you and enjoy!:)

doug.goodman
04-19-2021, 10:29 PM
Stop struggling. People are inherently assholes. Look at all the dickwads around you..... Flip, flop, pop. You try and tell them it's a billion dollar fraud (which we all know it is) and not only do you/they want to argue about it, you want to support the known criminals. :D:D:D:D I just have always found it fascinating.

It's no skin off of my ass but it does affect me like a festering boil somewhat. Itches and hurts for a while but then it pops. It's mostly funny as I watch America deteriorate. I could give 3 shits about it. Like others, if I can help 1 person not get scammed it's all worth it. Much like I felt about calling out autograph forgers and other losers trying to game the system. Just a bad gene pool a piss poor upbringing. I feel bad for the honest guy trying to make it of which there are many here including yourself. I have 10 lifelong friends I have beers with every 2 weeks. Many of us have our own business making 100's of thousands per year. Guess how many of the guys try and fuck other people? ZERO. Guess how many guys try and pick up the bill? All of them.

I love the way the cards look and what can be done to them. Please Forgive me if I just don't like people getting rich off of scamming others. I made my fortuney the old fashioned way with out fucking people and with integrity. I was taught to try and stand for something and to try and help others. I just try to enjoy the hobby I loved for 50 years. So don't struggle, really...I don't lose a minute of sleep and continue to enjoy what I have been blessed to collect over the years. While trying not to take it too far up the ass by the multi level shysters "investors" in the "Business". Good luck to you and enjoy!:)

What he said.

Casey2296
04-19-2021, 10:40 PM
I would also suggest that members here make a concerted effort to post interesting collecting stories that have nothing to do with the "business", after all, it is required as per Leon's rules of the sub if anybody bothered to read them.

doug.goodman
04-19-2021, 10:48 PM
I would also suggest that members here make a concerted effort to post interesting collecting stories that have nothing to do with the "business", after all, it is required as per Leon's rules of the sub if anybody bothered to read them.

We all make those posts in other threads, this thread is specifically talking about the "business". If you were looking for interesting stories, and based on your post it sounds like you are, you should have taken the title of this thread as a pretty clear hint that there weren't going to be any here, and clicked on a different thread.

Here's an interesting card for you, which has plenty of interesting stories attached to it, and most of them are about "fraud in the hobby".

Doug

Casey2296
04-19-2021, 11:18 PM
This thread is talking about losing the joy of the hobby because of the "business" of the hobby. While the business is an important aspect of the hobby I would posit that one less divisive thread about politics and one more thread about acquiring that card or finishing that set and the journey along the way would reinforce the joy of the hobby for collectors here.

ALBB
04-20-2021, 06:23 AM
what about the collector who " accidently " gets caught up in fraud ...

ex- the guy ( guys) who was fooled by these mighty grading services that " didnt do their job " and bought one of these high dollar vintage cards that was doctored ...paid thousands for a card that was later deemed trimmed ..but PSA slabbed it as - EX MT 7.

This guy now knows the card is bad

Maybe it sits in his collection for a while

sooner or later he will sell it ..maybe he breaks it out and try's to get it graded again.... maybe breaks it out and " plays dumb" and sells it raw....

bottom line is he knows the card is bad...but he wants to recoup his money

With all the cards that have been uncovered as doctored in the past...I believe this scenario will happen ( or has happened) many times

Johnny630
04-20-2021, 06:48 AM
what about the collector who " accidently " gets caught up in fraud ...

ex- the guy ( guys) who was fooled by these mighty grading services that " didnt do their job " and bought one of these high dollar vintage cards that was doctored ...paid thousands for a card that was later deemed trimmed ..but PSA slabbed it as - EX MT 7.

This guy now knows the card is bad

Maybe it sits in his collection for a while

sooner or later he will sell it ..maybe he breaks it out and try's to get it graded again.... maybe breaks it out and " plays dumb" and sells it raw....

bottom line is he knows the card is bad...but he wants to recoup his money

With all the cards that have been uncovered as doctored in the past...I believe this scenario will happen ( or has happened) many times


The problem is the cards altered or not are worth just as much if not more if they're in a holder. Sending it to a major auction house seems to work.

bnorth
04-20-2021, 06:55 AM
what about the collector who " accidently " gets caught up in fraud ...

ex- the guy ( guys) who was fooled by these mighty grading services that " didnt do their job " and bought one of these high dollar vintage cards that was doctored ...paid thousands for a card that was later deemed trimmed ..but PSA slabbed it as - EX MT 7.

This guy now knows the card is bad

Maybe it sits in his collection for a while

sooner or later he will sell it ..maybe he breaks it out and try's to get it graded again.... maybe breaks it out and " plays dumb" and sells it raw....

bottom line is he knows the card is bad...but he wants to recoup his money

With all the cards that have been uncovered as doctored in the past...I believe this scenario will happen ( or has happened) many times

It happens every single day.

From what I have seen it goes something like this.

1) Sell it and don't worry because that slab says it is a PSA 7 so it is a PSA 7.
2) Sell it and don't say anything because as the seller getting your cash back is #1.
3) Sell with full disclosure knowing no one will care anyway because the flip rules.
4) Send to PSA to get the grade confirmed. Then sell in the same slab because PSA confirmed their opinion.
5) Eat the loss, LOL I know it likely will never happen but someday it might.:D
6) PSA honors its guarantee.

steve B
04-20-2021, 08:40 AM
But when you shake your fist at others and say constantly "how stupid are you guys to stay involved with this bullshit" . . . at the same time that you stay involved with it all . . . that's the part I struggle with . . .

I've had cards graded in the past, not many, but some of my nicer/better ones. Mostly because someday my kids or wife will probably sell them, and assuming the grading still gets respect, they'll do much better.
SGC only for ones I sent in. But I've also bought a handful of cards from other companies.

I saw some stuff a few years ago that made me really not want to continue send in cards in and support companies I didn't think were honest.

But recently, there's some stuff I'm considering selling, and the price difference is big enough to make a real difference to me. So maybe?
It's still hard, or I'd have already done it.

I have pretty much moved away from the grading aspect.

steve B
04-20-2021, 08:50 AM
Many of us have our own business making 100's of thousands per year. Guess how many of the guys try and fuck other people? ZERO. Guess how many guys try and pick up the bill? All of them.



That's very real.

I went to a hydraulics convention, mostly to get a certification as they were doing the class/testing there.

Boss sent me with a company card saying "be responsible with it, but buy a round or two"
Sat at a table with 10 guys, more than half of them company owners or executives at a large company. First round comes, 11 cards hit the table.
The guy who was a VP of a big company picked them all up, handed his to the waitress and stacked the others. I think in order by company size and whether the person was an owner.
Looked at me and asked if it was my first time with a company card.
"yes"
"Ok, then this means something to you"
And he put mine on top of the stack for the next round.

That was the only time they let me buy the round all week, except for one time when it was all employees at the table.

Great bunch of people, and we just happened to have a common industry and not much more.

egri
04-20-2021, 11:28 AM
That's very real.

I went to a hydraulics convention, mostly to get a certification as they were doing the class/testing there.

Boss sent me with a company card saying "be responsible with it, but buy a round or two"
Sat at a table with 10 guys, more than half of them company owners or executives at a large company. First round comes, 11 cards hit the table.
The guy who was a VP of a big company picked them all up, handed his to the waitress and stacked the others. I think in order by company size and whether the person was an owner.
Looked at me and asked if it was my first time with a company card.
"yes"
"Ok, then this means something to you"
And he put mine on top of the stack for the next round.

That was the only time they let me buy the round all week, except for one time when it was all employees at the table.

Great bunch of people, and we just happened to have a common industry and not much more.

Right after I commissioned, I went out to lunch at the O-Club with a CDR and a retired CAPT who are both family friends. When the bill came, the three of us took out our cards. The other two pushed mine out of the way, and the Captain looked at me and asked "Do you know how many times I touched the bill as an Ensign? Never.", and the Commander nodded in agreement.

Seven
04-20-2021, 11:34 AM
On the subject of fraud:

I try to not allow it to affect my enjoyment or the connections I have made with other collectors. While they're have certainly been times where I have been effected by it, at the end of the day the good in my opinion outweighs the bad. I love talking cardboard with people that are truly interested in the hobby. While it is a little unfortunate that in recent times the business aspect has been getting more coverage, it just is what it is. The people that are strictly in this for the money will come and go while the people that collect and trade for enjoyment will stay.

As things get more popular, and valuable, the chances of fraud always increase. Art, photography, etc have been things brought up by previous posters. It's why I try to be as diligent as possible when buying cards, doing my research, posting here, or purchasing from sellers I explicitly trust.

I've only thankfully had one negative experience with fraud, and it wasn't even mine directly. I recieved a Jordan Rookie, years back from my father, I don't know how much he paid for it, but it was holdered by SGC. Turns out after some research and posting on here, the card ended up being fake. The original slab was cracked, a fake was inserted and then the slab was resealed. It's unfortunate, because it was a gift, and I could never bring myself to tell my father, something he spent his hard earned money on, for me, turned out being something that wasn't real, because he was fooled by some shady conman. Despite the card being fake, the emotion is still there, so are the memories of the gift itself. Those are genuine and real, so I take a little bit of solace in that.

Wimberleycardcollector
04-20-2021, 12:35 PM
There is fraud in wall street
Basically everything in this world there is fraud if there's money involve

Yep, just watch American Greed. A whole TV series built on stories of fraud. Bill Mastro was on one episode. It's a shame we have so much an annual TV series can be made from the stories.

Johnny630
04-20-2021, 01:01 PM
Does anyone really think the card doctors/fraudsters could, yet alone be charged but be found guilty by a jury of their peers ?

Aquarian Sports Cards
04-20-2021, 01:26 PM
Does anyone really think the card doctors/fraudsters could, yet alone be charged but be found quality by a jury of their piers ?.

packs
04-20-2021, 01:47 PM
Pier review

Peter_Spaeth
04-20-2021, 01:51 PM
For 10 points name a song whose lyrics include the word pier.

ASF123
04-20-2021, 01:56 PM
Paul Simon, "Still Crazy After All These Yiers"?

packs
04-20-2021, 01:57 PM
Sitting on the pier of the bay

perezfan
04-20-2021, 02:14 PM
Yep, just watch American Greed. A whole TV series built on stories of fraud. Bill Maestro was on one episode. It's a shame we have so much an annual TV series can be made from the stories.

Since we are in "spell check mode" it's actually Mastro, as opposed to the guy pictured below...

But agree with your point. John Rogers was also more recently featured on American Greed. Next year's episode should be quite interesting, with far too many potential candidates to speculate who'll be the "star". The frontrunners are Moser, Huigens and Orlando. But Forman, Heritage and the Phantom Cracker Jack Butcher might be primed for a late run.

Stay tuned!

packs
04-20-2021, 02:19 PM
My issue with Maestro stems from an unsuccessful attempt at renting a house in Tuscany

perezfan
04-20-2021, 02:21 PM
For 10 points name a song whose lyrics include the word pier.

Blondie did a clever little number called "Love at the Pier", but I doubt that's the one you're looking for? :confused:

moeson
04-20-2021, 02:30 PM
For 10 points name a song whose lyrics include the word pier.

4th of July (Sandy)

ASF123
04-20-2021, 02:41 PM
My issue with Maestro stems from an unsuccessful attempt at renting a house in TuscanyNice. My problem involved being forced to hold a note until it caused the roof of the opera hall to cave in, maiming me. There is video of the incident.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=R4AOKEjbPgA

ASF123
04-20-2021, 02:42 PM
4th of July (Sandy)Dammit, I should have gotten that one right away. Huge Springsteen fan.

Peter_Spaeth
04-20-2021, 03:09 PM
4th of July (Sandy)

And another? Clue -- 60s.

Eric72
04-20-2021, 03:42 PM
..be found quality by a jury...

Sadly, yes. The card doctors have been found to be "quality" by many.

Johnny630
04-20-2021, 03:46 PM
Sadly, yes. The card doctors have been found to be "quality" by many.

Man You Make a Couple Spelling mistakes and you get destroyed oh well I’m a easy target I suppose.

Hope y’all enjoyed the laughs at my disposal.

timzcardz
04-20-2021, 04:38 PM
For 10 points name a song whose lyrics include the word pier.

Beach Boys of course . . . Surfin' Safari

Peter_Spaeth
04-20-2021, 04:43 PM
Beach Boys of course . . . Surfin' Safari

Damn I missed that one myself. Still have another in mind.

Aquarian Sports Cards
04-20-2021, 05:02 PM
For 10 points name a song whose lyrics include the word pier.

Pretty sure it's in Surfin' Safari

Peter_Spaeth
04-20-2021, 05:45 PM
Pretty sure it's in Surfin' Safari

Already named above.

Aquarian Sports Cards
04-20-2021, 05:53 PM
I need to refresh threads before I answer lol.

How about Up the Pool by Tull?

Tao_Moko
04-20-2021, 06:10 PM
But when you shake your fist at others and say constantly "how stupid are you guys to stay involved with this bullshit" . . . at the same time that you stay involved with it all . . . that's the part I struggle with . . .

I hear you and don't disagree when it comes to supporting tpg's and auction houses found party to fraud. My collection suffers because I don't pay premiums for graded cards, or bid in most auctions(including many on ebay). Graded cards rarely make it 30 minutes in my possession before being busted. But, passion isn't normally accompanied by complacency. If my Marines and Sailors weren't bitching then something was wrong.

Peter_Spaeth
04-20-2021, 06:11 PM
I need to refresh threads before I answer lol.

How about Up the Pool by Tull?

Don't know that one. Still looking for a late 60s song by a major British group.

topcat61
04-20-2021, 06:14 PM
There's been reported fraud in the hobby since 1971, but the key to thwarting it is to be educated to know when it's happening and report on it.

RCMcKenzie
04-20-2021, 06:25 PM
Randy Newman, Linda, was 1968, but he is not a British group, so it can't be that one. Bob Geldof, Walking Back to Happiness is another I saw. I ran the word "pier" through a song list website and came up with hundreds of returns. I think My Morning Jacket has a song about a pier, but that's a newer band from the South.

Aquarian Sports Cards
04-20-2021, 09:31 PM
Moody Blues Legend of a Mind 1968. If that ain't it I quit lol. (and I had to look this one up even though I'm a huge Moody Blues fan)

Peter_Spaeth
04-20-2021, 09:32 PM
Moody Blues Legend of a Mind 1968. If that ain't it I quit lol. (and I had to look this one up even though I'm a huge Moody Blues fan)

Yes.
Signing of Timothy Leary: the little man who sells you thrills along the pier.

Great and different song, brilliant flute solo.

Wimberleycardcollector
04-21-2021, 09:15 AM
Yep, just watch American Greed. A whole TV series built on stories of fraud. Bill Mastro was on one episode. It's a shame we have so much an annual TV series can be made from the stories.

Corrected for those who find joy in pointing out other people's mistakes. :)

jchcollins
04-21-2021, 09:30 AM
"Fraud" in the hobby has been around as long as there has been a hobby, I hate to tell you. It's just got a lot more light on it now because we have graders and dealers and auction houses who can stand to benefit tremendously more from the fraud, and the technology / scans / wherewithal to detect 1/16 of an inch or less of perfect trimming, recoloring, bleaching, soaking, what have you. We also perhaps more importantly have the technology to share and disseminate the details of this fraud en masse quickly. Is this bad? Sure. But did certain unscrupulous people also do similar, if much cruder card doctoring in 1968? 1975? 1982? 1990? Of course they did. It simply did not get a ton of light on it due to the way the hobby worked and communicated at the time. Even so, one could argue this was the impetus for the birth of professional grading. But I digress.

Bottom line, are you happy with your cards? Do you know enough about them to detect the red flags of what may be a basic doctoring job? Then don't buy those cards. I've been doing this for 35 years and most of the vintage (my main focus as a kid...) that I had then was beat up to begin with. I will admit to liking nice, properly slabbed midgrade cards, but if too many of those become ripe with suspicion over alteration, then it's no problem for me to go back to buying lower grade raw cards (for cheaper...) that I don't suspect of having been altered. Just speaking personally, it would take things getting a lot worse than they have been over the previous 3-5 years with the scandals for me to get that much more disgusted with the hobby to where I would consider leaving entirely. But each unto their own.

Yoda
04-21-2021, 10:28 AM
Already named above.

Peter, not quite a*pier, but I struck upon that 50's classic by the Drifters, "Under the Boardwalk."

Wimberleycardcollector
04-21-2021, 10:33 AM
"Fraud" in the hobby has been around as long as there has been a hobby, I hate to tell you. It's just got a lot more light on it now because we have graders and dealers and auction houses who can stand to benefit tremendously more from the fraud, and the technology / scans / wherewithall to detect 1/16 of an inch or less of perfect trimming, recoloring, bleaching, soaking, what have you. We also perhaps more importantly have the technology to share and disseminate the details of this fraud en masse quickly. Is this bad? Sure. Bud did certain unscrupulous people also do similar, if much cruder card doctoring in 1968? 1975? 1982? 1990? Of course they did. It simply did not get a ton of light on it due to the way the hobby worked and communicated at the time. Even so, one could argue this was the impetus for the birth of professional grading. But I digress.

Bottom line, are you happy with your cards? Do you know enough about them to detect the red flags of what may be a basic doctoring job? Then don't buy those cards. I've been doing this for 35 years and most of the vintage (my main focus as a kid...) that I had then was beat up to begin with. I will admit to liking nice, properly slabbed midgrade cards, but if too many of those become ripe with suspect over alteration, then it's no problem for me to go back to buying lower grade raw cards (for cheaper...) that I don't suspect of having been altered. Just speaking personally, it would take things getting a lot worse than they have been over the previous 3-5 years with the scandals for me to get that much more disgusted with the hobby to where I would consider leaving entirely. But each unto their own.

Well said. I don't stress over baseball card collecting. But then again it's a hobby for me and not tied to financial gains or retirement. It all started with my love of baseball and continues to be tied to that. I also don't let politics ruin my love for the game.

jchcollins
04-21-2021, 11:25 AM
Well said. I don't stress over baseball card collecting. But then again it's a hobby for me and not tied to financial gains or retirement. It all started with my love of baseball and continues to be tied to that. I also don't let politics ruin my love for the game.

Thanks. Ugh, I see I cannot type or spell today.

Peter_Spaeth
04-21-2021, 12:17 PM
Peter, not quite a*pier, but I struck upon that 50's classic by the Drifters, "Under the Boardwalk."

Its actually from 1964 although most think it's from the doo wop 50s.

Wimberleycardcollector
04-21-2021, 01:38 PM
Thanks. Ugh, I see I cannot type or spell today.

LOL. Don't worry the grammar police will let you know.

68Hawk
04-21-2021, 01:57 PM
"Fraud" in the hobby has been around as long as there has been a hobby, I hate to tell you. It's just got a lot more light on it now because we have graders and dealers and auction houses who can stand to benefit tremendously more from the fraud, and the technology / scans / wherewithal to detect 1/16 of an inch or less of perfect trimming, recoloring, bleaching, soaking, what have you. We also perhaps more importantly have the technology to share and disseminate the details of this fraud en masse quickly. Is this bad? Sure. But did certain unscrupulous people also do similar, if much cruder card doctoring in 1968? 1975? 1982? 1990? Of course they did. It simply did not get a ton of light on it due to the way the hobby worked and communicated at the time. Even so, one could argue this was the impetus for the birth of professional grading. But I digress.

Bottom line, are you happy with your cards? Do you know enough about them to detect the red flags of what may be a basic doctoring job? Then don't buy those cards. I've been doing this for 35 years and most of the vintage (my main focus as a kid...) that I had then was beat up to begin with. I will admit to liking nice, properly slabbed midgrade cards, but if too many of those become ripe with suspicion over alteration, then it's no problem for me to go back to buying lower grade raw cards (for cheaper...) that I don't suspect of having been altered. Just speaking personally, it would take things getting a lot worse than they have been over the previous 3-5 years with the scandals for me to get that much more disgusted with the hobby to where I would consider leaving entirely. But each unto their own.

Terrific post.

brob28
04-21-2021, 03:18 PM
It could be argued that the more you dislike and oppose fraud in the hobby, the more you love the hobby and want to protect it.

If you did not love the hobby or were apathetic to the molestation of cards for huge profits, then the fraud would probably not make your radar screen.

The people profiting from (and authenticating) fraud love the monetary aspect of the hobby. Those opposing fraud and corrupt practices love the hobby for what it is.

And when you love something, you do not stand by silently to watch it fall apart.

Well said Mark.

Snapolit1
04-21-2021, 03:31 PM
Well said Mark.

I get that.

Maybe my post wasn't particularly well worded. What I find odd is how many of the people who rail about fraud in the hobby aren't actually railing against the fraudsters, but railing against other collectors who in their minds are too happy and aren't sufficiently outraged. Saying basically "because of collectors like you guys buying the stuff you're buying fraud is flourishing. . . .you should be more pissed off like I am."

The most obvious example is anytime someone posts about buying from PWCC 3 people immediately post about how PWCC is all about fraud bidding and how basically if you purchase cards from that company you are somehow complacent in all sorts of horrors.

Maybe too fine a point, but that's what I was trying to understand.

Aquarian Sports Cards
04-21-2021, 03:39 PM
Well Steve, aren't they? If you support a company that does business the wrong way then you are giving the most important stamp of approval you can, your dollars, that keep them in business.

Snapolit1
04-21-2021, 05:09 PM
Well Steve, aren't they? If you support a company that does business the wrong way then you are giving the most important stamp of approval you can, your dollars, that keep them in business.

I'm just not that concerned with what other collectors do. Yes, I avoid companies that I don't think are ethical. But if someone else makes a different call I don't think it's my place to chastise them.

I vent at AHs all the time. I don't want to be in the business of venting at other collectors. The problem is the criminals, not their customers.

Aquarian Sports Cards
04-21-2021, 06:30 PM
Yeah I think we're on the same page. I don't understand doing business with creeps and crooks so I don't do it. While I don't understand anyone who continues to do business with them I don't think I actively harangue them about it, just in my head lol, Although if someone who is still doing business with a crook then complains about the crooks in the hobby I might be disinclined to bite my tongue.

Leon
04-23-2021, 01:11 PM
We all need to help root out fraud in the hobby. A few days ago a longtime member got shown the door as he completely reneged on a large item at a major auction house. He was still doing business on our BST daily. When I caught wind of it, in my estimation, he was no longer a good risk here. I had pm'd him and he was back on the board, 2x, but never answered the pm concerning the situation. Of course he followed up his banishment with the obligatory derogatory email.

To reply to the original question, I also don't understand folks who bitch and complain, yet stay in the hobby. The answer has to be money, doesn't it?


Every thread needs a random card.

https://luckeycards.com/pe222awa.jpg
.

obcbobd
04-23-2021, 03:22 PM
We all need to help root out fraud in the hobby. A few days ago a longtime member got shown the door as he completely reneged on a large item at a major auction house. He was still doing business on our BST daily. When I caught wind of it, in my estimation, he was no longer a good risk here. I had pm'd him and he was back on the board, 2x, but never answered the pm concerning the situation. Of course he followed up his banishment with the obligatory derogatory email.
.

Leon

A thankless task, for which I thank you!

Bob

egri
04-23-2021, 04:14 PM
Leon

A thankless task, for which I thank you!

Bob

+1