Worthpoint removes 30 million sports card listings

[Peter_Spaeth]

Cross posting this from Blowout.

https://www.blowoutforums.com/showthread.php?t=1443853

The lead-in but won't duplicate the complete post here:

n Monday morning (February 1, 2021) it was identified that all eBay sports card sales were removed from being searched on Worthpoint.com. Although the archive of listings still exists, as previously existing links to Worthpoint listings can still be accessed successfully, there is no longer any way to search for sports cards sold via eBay on Worthpoint. The only exception is cards that were listed in an incorrect category on eBay or items that are so old (circa 2011 or earlier) that the listed category of the item on Worthpoint is "Unknown". All sports and trading card related categories were totally wiped on Monday. Archive.org indicates that there were circa 63,000,000 listings in the "Sports" category on Worthpoint as of January 26, 2021. Today that number is approximately 33,000,000. These 33 million listings are solely composed of autographs, jerseys, memorabilia, tickets, bobbleheads, etc. Multiple correspondences with Worthpoint, including the one pictured below, indicate that the purging of sports card listings is part of a "normal optimization process". The message also indicates that 180,000 sales results still remain, meaning that Worthpoint removed 99.4% of their sports cards listings.

[h2oya311]

Wow! What’s the rationale? Or what’s the running theory about why these were removed?

[Peter_Spaeth]

Wow! What’s the rationale? Or what’s the running theory about why these were removed?

I don't know, but certainly there is speculation that it's to prevent BODA and anyone else like-minded from tracking down altered cards by comparing past images.

[Jeffrompa]

Every time I go there I have found something I have sold . What ripoff !

[Bigdaddy]

Wow! What’s the rationale? Or what’s the running theory about why these were removed?

I don't know and won't speculate, but I can almost guarantee that it is not a "normal optimization process".

[Rich Klein]

Ebay does also license their data and if Worthpoint found some way around that license then EBay has the right to remove that data.

Rich

[aelefson]

I highly recommend others calling and/or emailing Worthpoint as I just did. I have always considered buying a subscription as a lot of my research ends at their paywall, but if they are willing to erase so many results, I have no use for it.

The odd things is, the trimming scandal barely affects me as I do not collect graded cards (never bought one, nor have I ever had a card graded). It does bother me a lot though, and if there is a chance what Worthpoint did is related to the BODA work it should be a major story.

Alan

[Johnny630]

Very Suspicious......

[Peter_Spaeth]

It would be great if someone could post this to CU. I would do it myself but I was banned lol.

[D. Bergin]

"Normal Optimization" LOL!!!


Your entire business is designed on providing data to your customers. You then redact a large percentage of that data?

Nothing normal about that.

There's a multitude of different reasons why they would do something like that. Without getting into possible conspiracies (which may or may not be valid), the most obvious would be some kind of a cost cutting measure.

Cost of additional servers to archive that data. Cost of licensing to provide that data from Ebay or other sources. Cost of additional employees to corral, corroborate and archive that data, however they might be doing it.

It would be nice if they were upfront about it one way or another. The fact they cloak it in a phrase like "Normal Optimization", is what makes people think their explanation is likely suspect.

The idea of Worthpoint has always intrigued me. Been tempted to dip my toes past the paywall, but couldn't ever seem to justify the cost to myself. This pretty much settles it.

[samosa4u]

Do you think that Worthpoint received a letter from a lawyer threatening legal action unless they took the listings down?

[Peter_Spaeth]

Do you think that Worthpoint received a letter from a lawyer threatening legal action unless they took the listings down?

If it's a licensing issue, that's possible.

[griffon512]

If it's a licensing issue, that's possible.

Thanks for the head's up on this. I cancelled my subscription and they are giving me a pro rated refund. As expected, the representative I talked to had no explanation for the change but said corporate was having a meeting about it today.

[samosa4u]

If it's a licensing issue, that's possible.

No, that's not what I'm talking about. Imagine being in Brent's shoes here. A group of guys, who have nothing else to do, spend hours each day browsing through Worthpoint listings. They find so many altered cards, which you've sold, and now you have to refund everything, or most of them, from your own pocket. This is something that can go on forever, right? Are you not going to try and put a stop to this?

[doug.goodman]

I don't know and won't speculate, but I can almost guarantee that it is not a "normal optimization process".

Don't be so sure.

I can't find the story right now but I read on OANN.com that Donald Trump bought worthpoint and in his initial briefing to their board pointed out that if they had fewer items in their database to search it would have the effect of optimizing the search process.

Doug "insert smiley face here" Goodman

[Peter_Spaeth]

No, that's not what I'm talking about. Imagine being in Brent's shoes here. A group of guys, who have nothing else to do, spend hours each day browsing through Worthpoint listings. They find so many altered cards, which you've sold, and now you have to refund everything, or most of them, from your own pocket. This is something that can go on forever, right? Are you not going to try and put a stop to this?

What basis would Brent have to demand that Worthpoint take down its listings? I mean we can speculate all we want but that doesn't make sense to me.

[swarmee]

Nat Turner, the new part-owner of Collector's Universe, would be a better bogeyman for the tin foil hat crowd. Obviously with PSA's liability in their Grade Guarantee and Turner's ability to buy companies at whim, it would at least be a more plausible conspiracy theory.

The same type of data is available for free through Brent's PWCC Marketplace with a free login for sports cards, maybe not every single listing that Worthpoint had, but a lion's share of it I'd guess.

It certainly seems bizarre that Worthpoint would go, "Man, we're getting a lot of people consistently searching for historical baseball cards and items! We should really clear them out!"

Another possibility is that eBay itself restricted the data feed, or tried to strong arm Worthpoint to remove it so eBay could charge more for its historical data. We know they're restricting sites like watchcount and 130point to run as many queries as they usually do.

Kind of reminds me of the VCP image quality "improvements" a couple of years ago where making lower fidelity images available was considered "optimization." Hopefully Worthpoint reverses their decision, because if PSA and PWCC are the only arbiters of historical images and pricing data, then the fox is guarding the henhouse again.

[Bigdaddy]

What basis would Brent have to demand that Worthpoint take down its listings? I mean we can speculate all we want but that doesn't make sense to me.

You wouldn't have to demand it, just pay them to do it.

[perezfan]

Nat Turner, the new part-owner of Collector's Universe, would be a better bogeyman for the tin foil hat crowd. Obviously with PSA's liability in their Grade Guarantee and Turner's ability to buy companies at whim, it would at least be a more plausible conspiracy theory.

The same type of data is available for free through Brent's PWCC Marketplace with a free login for sports cards, maybe not every single listing that Worthpoint had, but a lion's share of it I'd guess.

It certainly seems bizarre that Worthpoint would go, "Man, we're getting a lot of people consistently searching for historical baseball cards and items! We should really clear them out!"

Another possibility is that eBay itself restricted the data feed, or tried to strong arm Worthpoint to remove it so eBay could charge more for its historical data. We know they're restricting sites like watchcount and 130point to run as many queries as they usually do.

Kind of reminds me of the VCP image quality "improvements" a couple of years ago where making lower fidelity images available was considered "optimization." Hopefully Worthpoint reverses their decision, because if PSA and PWCC are the only arbiters of historical images and pricing data, then the fox is guarding the henhouse again.

Regarding the part in bold, I believe this (PSA) is a far greater possibility than Brent instigating this action. This theory makes complete sense, and is very suspicious. Think about it for just one second... If Worthpoint's objective really was to "optimize", then why would it only be done for sportscards? And why would they wipe out over 99% of the data for that one category?

That's completely ridiculous! Why leave all of the memorabilia, autographs, photos, jerseys, tickets, bobbleheads, and everything else in tact?

The fact that it's just sportscards says a lot about who instigated this. This decision is completely void of any logic, and wreaks of corruption (just when you thought you'd seen it all in this sleazy hobby). :mad:

[Republicaninmass]

It would be great if someone could post this to CU. I would do it myself but I was banned lol.

Myself as well! Per their moderator " they wont be reactivating my account"


I'm crushed

[chalupacollects]

Maybe the FBI folks running the trimming scandal can make a phone call and ask?

[wnp22]

Edit: Whoops saw this info was already given earlier in the thread. My bad. Still recommend these for your price research.

If you’re looking for something to fill the gap, PWCC has a free database of sold listings going back to like 2008ish and of course VCP is the best for tracking graded sales. (I have no part in either of these, just putting the info out there for people that don’t know)

[Peter_Spaeth]

Myself as well! Per their moderator " they wont be reactivating my account"


I'm crushed

I had the temerity to ask at the beginning of the BODA stuff something along the lines of, how are we to understand this? It really wasn't inflammatory at all. My account went poof within minutes. This after I had been told how the new mod was a great guy.

[Rich Klein]

I had the temerity to ask at the beginning of the BODA stuff something along the lines of, how are we to understand this? It really wasn't inflammatory at all. My account went poof within minutes. This after I had been told how the new mod was a great guy.

Peter:

I will vouch the moderator is a good guy, we've known each other for at least a decade and I finally met him at either the 2017 or 2018 NSCC.

However, being a good guy and having to follow corporate dictates are two very different things. Let's say his boss said your account has to go for that post, then he has no real option but to poof your account

Rich

[Peter_Spaeth]

Peter:

I will vouch the moderator is a good guy, we've known each other for at least a decade and I finally met him at either the 2017 or 2018 NSCC.

However, being a good guy and having to follow corporate dictates are two very different things. Let's say his boss said your account has to go for that post, then he has no real option but to poof your account

Rich

While obviously not remotely equivalent to the defense raised at Nuremberg, I am not sure I always buy the "my boss made me do it" rationale for doing something one doesn't believe is right. In any event, I would be surprised if the decision was made at a higher level, it was almost instant.

[Rich Klein]

The defendants at Nuremberg said the same thing, and I would be surprised if the decision was made at a higher level, it was almost instant.

Peter:

That comment is beneath you, this is baseball cards not something more serious. FYI my wife is the daughter of a survivor so I take all those references very seriously

Rich

[Peter_Spaeth]

Peter:

That comment is beneath you, this is baseball cards not something more serious. FYI my wife is the daughter of a survivor so I take all those references very seriously

Rich

Obviously I was not suggesting an equivalence in terms of seriousness, Rich. But I will edit it so as not to offend.

[Rich Klein]

Obviously I was not suggesting an equivalence in terms of seriousness, Rich. But I will edit it so as not to offend.

TY Peter, I appreciate the change

Rich

[pokerplyr80]

I have to agree you can't blame someone who's paid to be a chat board moderator for doing his job. I'm sure he is told what posts to remove, and under what circumstances to ban a user. Is he supposed to have some moral objection to banning those that violate the rules? I would think not.

[Peter_Spaeth]

I have to agree you can't blame someone who's paid to be a chat board moderator for doing his job. I'm sure he is told what posts to remove, and under what circumstances to ban a user. Is he supposed to have some moral objection to banning those that violate the rules? I would think not.

I didn't come close to violating any rule. I just asked what are we to make of all these cards being identified as altered. Anyhow I didn't mean to get off on a tangent, I was just explaining that I was banned by the supposedly good guy new mod and I guess it irritated me that Rich was defending him.

[pokerplyr80]

I'm not sure I have ever posted on PSA's boards. As I understand it they're very quick to remove posts that could be viewed as against the company's best interests. That is just what I gather from posts around here though. I have never looked up their rules.

I also assume I would be banned had I spent any time posting there.

[Rich Klein]

I didn't come close to violating any rule. I just asked what are we to make of all these cards being identified as altered. Anyhow I didn't mean to get off on a tangent, I was just explaining that I was banned by the supposedly good guy new mod and I guess it irritated me that Rich was defending him.

I was defending him because I know him outside of CU and I was pointing out the corporate view. I get Peter's frustration but let's also be thankful as long as you put your name on a post, we have reasonably fair ways to express ourselves on 54. As Peter noted, many boards are not that user friendly in terms of other opinions.

Rich

[perezfan]

I have to agree you can't blame someone who's paid to be a chat board moderator for doing his job. I'm sure he is told what posts to remove, and under what circumstances to ban a user. Is he supposed to have some moral objection to banning those that violate the rules? I would think not.

Violate the rules???

If an honest, pertinent and stimulating conversation violates company rules and results in banning, then who in their right mind would support such a company?

Never Get Cheated.

[Peter_Spaeth]

Violate the rules???

If an honest, pertinent and stimulating conversation violates company rules and results in banning, then who in their right mind would support such a company?

Never Get Cheated.

The usual rules of corporate behavior have never applied in the case of PSA and even less so now. 4 million item backlog, I am told.

[doug.goodman]

4 million item backlog, I am told.

That's not too bad.

If you figure 200 opinion givers, giving 1 opinion every 30 seconds, for 8 hours a day, for 5 days a week, then they are about a month from catching up...

Doug "easy" Goodman

[Peter_Spaeth]

That's not too bad.

If you figure 200 opinion givers, giving 1 opinion every 30 seconds, for 8 hours a day, for 5 days a week, then they are about a month from catching up...

Doug "easy" Goodman

Nope because the inflow exceeds the outflow. It will only get worse.

[doug.goodman]

Then they better step it up.

30 seconds IS a bit slow I suppose.

And if they hire another 100 "experts"...

I've been unemployed for 335 days, not that I'm counting, so if they want to drop the most recent submissions by Dmitri Young by my place, I can whip those out in a couple seconds because I don't even have to see them to know they are 10s.

Doug

[perezfan]

then they better step it up.

30 seconds is a bit slow i suppose.

And if they hire another 100 "experts"...

I've been unemployed for 335 days, not that i'm counting, so if they want to drop the most recent submissions by dmitri young by my place, i can whip those out in a couple seconds because i don't even have to see them to know they are 10s.

Doug

If you're still eligible for unemployment checks, I would not quit your "day job". You might actually bring some credibility to your new employer. :D

[todeen]

Then they better step it up.

30 seconds IS a bit slow I suppose.

And if they hire another 100 "experts"...

I've been unemployed for 335 days, not that I'm counting, so if they want to drop the most recent submissions by Dmitri Young by my place, I can whip those out in a couple seconds because I don't even have to see them to know they are 10s.

Doug

I've been meaning to ask you if the outlook looks hopeful for concerts and outdoor venues this summer. Think you'll get back on the road?

[doug.goodman]

I've been meaning to ask you if the outlook looks hopeful for concerts and outdoor venues this summer. Think you'll get back on the road?

I predict that all stadium level tours currently scheduled (Motley Crue / GnR / Green Day / etc.) will be "postponed" (again).

I have a couple festival shows scheduled in September but I'm not holding my breath about confirmation that 50,000 people can attend happening before infrastructure costs cause them to "re-schedule".

General consensus in the roadies with titles (tour managers, tour accountants, production managers) community is late, late, late, late summer at best.

The good news is I have plenty of time to sort thru my stuff.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jHPOzQzk9Qo

Doug

[Johnny630]

I think late spring early summer many people will be going out spending their disposable incomes on eating out, entertainment, and vacationing/traveling.

[doug.goodman]

I think late spring early summer many people will be going out spending their disposable incomes on eating out, entertainment, and vacationing/traveling.

But they won't be doing it at huge rock shows...

[Aquarian Sports Cards]

I predict that all stadium level tours currently scheduled (Motley Crue / GnR / Green Day / etc.) will be "postponed" (again).

I have a couple festival shows scheduled in September but I'm not holding my breath about confirmation that 50,000 people can attend happening before infrastructure costs cause them to "re-schedule".

General consensus in the roadies with titles (tour managers, tour accountants, production managers) community is late, late, late, late summer at best.

The good news is I have plenty of time to sort thru my stuff.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jHPOzQzk9Qo

Doug

In a past life I was a union carpenter for IATSE and would work occasionally at Atomic often building sets for rock tours. I know they are really suffering as are all the performing arts and support industries. Everyone thinks of the artists and maybe the tour people, but the people who build the sets and lighting and the designers and on and on are suffering. It really is a heartbreaking thing to watch so many friends struggle to keep their heads above water.

[doug.goodman]

In a past life I was a union carpenter for IATSE and would work occasionally at Atomic often building sets for rock tours. I know they are really suffering as are all the performing arts and support industries. Everyone thinks of the artists and maybe the tour people, but the people who build the sets and lighting and the designers and on and on are suffering. It really is a heartbreaking thing to watch so many friends struggle to keep their heads above water.

And the ushers, and the security staff, and the parking lot attendants, and the concessions workers, and the cleaning people, and the box office staff, and the caterers, etc.

The number of people employed by the average concert is far more than anybody thinks about.

Doug


PS - apologies to Peter for the accidental hijacking of his thread.

[perezfan]

... and all of the local bars and restaurants that surround these concert venues. Business owners, cooks, waiters, busboys, receptionists, food and beverage suppliers, and the list goes on.

Here in WA, you can't even go to a restaurant that has entertainment of any kind. You can cram hundreds of people into a Target, Wal Mart or Costco, but live entertainment is forbidden.

You can't even have a single entertainer in a coffee house or restaurant.... despite the fact that they'd be performing 12-15 feet away, while the dining tables are spaced 6 feet apart.

Double standards galore in the PNW. An actual live concert seems like a pipe dream at this point. Getting a hole in one used to be my lifetime goal. Now it's simply to attend one more real concert. At least we crammed in a few good shows just before the lockdowns were enacted.

[doug.goodman]

... and all of the local bars and restaurants that surround these concert venues. Business owners, cooks, waiters, busboys, receptionists, food and beverage suppliers, and the list goes on.

Yep, and on, and on...

[Peter_Spaeth]

What baffles me, at least in MA, is the constantly shifting guidance in response to minor changes in the statistics, and the seeming arbitrariness of the guidance. So it's OK to have 10 people in a meeting but not 15? How is that really helpful?

[doug.goodman]

What baffles me, at least in MA, is the constantly shifting guidance in response to minor changes in the statistics, and the seeming arbitrariness of the guidance. So it's OK to have 10 people in a meeting but not 15? How is that really helpful?

I agree.

If the federal government had done what many would consider to be it's job and instructed the states with specific policies, guided by the elements of the federal government whose specific training and jobs were meant to deal with medical situations of the kind we were (and still are) facing 10+ months ago instead of telling the states to pretty much "do what you think is best" for an issue that was clearly on a national (technically international) scale, we might be in a better position now.

But, that didn't happen, so... here we are.

It's all certainly well beyond my pay grade, and I assume those of everybody who will read this post.

Doug "...but my friends in some other countries are doing pretty good..." Goodman

[Leon]

What baffles me, at least in MA, is the constantly shifting guidance in response to minor changes in the statistics, and the seeming arbitrariness of the guidance. So it's OK to have 10 people in a meeting but not 15? How is that really helpful?

10 people can be further apart than 15?

.

[Jim F]

Years worth of sales and free

https://www.sportscards.com/browse?categoryId=64482&kw=t206%20&sellingStatus=EndedWithSales&sort=endTimeEnded&order=asc

[cannonballsun]

Years worth of sales and free

https://www.sportscards.com/browse?categoryId=64482&kw=t206%20&sellingStatus=EndedWithSales&sort=endTimeEnded&order=asc

I gave the site a quick look, and it looks promising.
I've had a subscription to Worthpoint for a while. I like to use it to research some obscure issues. The way it stands now, that is over.
A recent noticeable change is that PWCC has started their own Market Research site. Perhaps they are giving eBay a better deal on the eBay results, and Worthpoint is now out.
PWCC 's search engine definitely seems better than Worthpoint's. Worthpoint's search engine was always very incomplete. But they did have pictures, which is very important. PWCC only has pictures for recent sales. Perhaps this will change, perhaps not.
Of course, this also would fit in perfectly if PWCC's goal is to stop all the research on trimmed and altered cards. That seems to be the most popular feeling of net 54 baseball members.
We shall see. At least I hope we will.

[thecatspajamas]

Whenever any change involves eBay, you can pretty much assume that it was a money grab by eBay in some form or fashion. While certainly important to the card collecting community, I would be surprised if eBay or Worthpoint either one are concerned or even aware of any "card alteration scandals." I find it more likely that eBay identified the recent spike in interest in sports collectibles as an opportunity to charge more for historic information in that category and/or Worthpoint looked at their users' search utilization for that category and decided the subscription fees no longer justified whatever eBay is charging for that category of data. With the other more-reliable and targeted sources for historic sales information available for sports cards, it seems unlikely that Worthpoint was the go-to source for this information, unlike other antique and collectible categories that do not have such strong third-party support for historic information. That doesn't meant eBay charges any less for that information though, and if they are charging by category (I have no idea how it gets broken down by eBay for third-party access to historic eBay information), it would make sense for Worthpoint and other users to evaluate which categories they/their users utilize most, and only pay for those.

Of course, I could be completely wrong about eBay's pricing schemes for 3rd-party use of historic sales info. If it's one set fee for all categories, for instance, then nothing I said holds water. I guess that's half the fun of conspiracy theories, right?

[doug.goodman]

...then nothing I said holds water. I guess that's half the fun of conspiracy theories, right?

That made me laugh out loud

[Jeffrompa]

When eBay starts authenticating cards .

[perezfan]

If eBay's authentication service includes cards, photos and autographs, we are all in for a massive headache. :eek: