THE Hall of Fame this year and next:

[clydepepper]

If nobody gets voted in this years...which looks possible, next years ballot will included:

Schilling, Bonds and Clemens in their 10th and last year on the ballot.

and

Ortiz and A-Rod in their first year on the ballot.




If not this year, next year is when 'the rubber meets the road' - where all arguments come to a head and the most difficult decisions as to the role of a player's character have to be made.

Thoughts?


.

[sportscardpete]

I think Bonds is in. Clemens, not sure.

[Aquarian Sports Cards]

Never understood the pass Ortiz gets. I guess being lovable forgives a lot of sins.

[vintagewhitesox]

I think Bonds is in. Clemens, not sure.

I'm with you on this one. I think Bonds gets in. at least he should.
so should clemens.

[Harliduck]

I'm with you on this one. I think Bonds gets in. at least he should.
so should clemens.

I agree. I hate those guys, hate that era full of cheaters, hate that some iconic records were broke. I still LOVE baseball, and I recognize that era will be historically remembered like many other eras and taken in that vein. With that said, I am TIRED of players with crooked numbers not being in the HOF. I think Rose, Bonds, Clemens, eventually Arod...they just need to be in. When I look at the back of a baseball card and see Bonds stats compared to Barry Larkin, it's just not right. I consider myself a purist, but the old argument that there are already a bunch of a$$holes in the HOF is true. They were the greatest players of that era, and with everyone juiced they still stood out (and without would have still made it, which is frustrating).

Just my .02$

[bbcard1]

If you have an organization where Harold Baines, Rabbit Maranville and Lloyd Waner are in but Pete Rose, Barry Bonds and Roger Clemens are not...well it's kind of counterintuitive to what the Hall of Fame is supposed to be.

[AGuinness]

Never understood the pass Ortiz gets. I guess being lovable forgives a lot of sins.

Bud Selig, who's career was built on the backs of steroid users, is in.

Anybody who played in that era, before testing, and whose career numbers are worthy, should be in. Likewise for those players who never tested positive after testing was implemented.

I don't understand how people accept the double-standard with Selig in the Hall and Clemens and Bonds not being in.

[rats60]

If you have an organization where Harold Baines, Rabbit Maranville and Lloyd Waner are in but Pete Rose, Barry Bonds and Roger Clemens are not...well it's kind of counterintuitive to what the Hall of Fame is supposed to be.

Not really. In 1936 Shoeless Joe Jackson received 2 votes for the Hall of Fame. In 1937 he received 0. It is pretty clear from the beginning that character was a major component of election to the Hall of Fame.

[rats60]

Bud Selig, who's career was built on the backs of steroid users, is in.

Anybody who played in that era, before testing, and whose career numbers are worthy, should be in. Likewise for those players who never tested positive after testing was implemented.

I don't understand how people accept the double-standard with Selig in the Hall and Clemens and Bonds not being in.

Easy. Two wrongs don't make a right. Should everyone with better stats than Harold Baines or Tommy McCarthy be elected to the HOF?

[AGuinness]

Easy. Two wrongs don't make a right. Should everyone with better stats than Harold Baines or Tommy McCarthy be elected to the HOF?

This is nothing about "two wrongs," this is about the criteria for enshrinement and a double standard for Selig vs. Bonds and Clemens. And I'm not sure how that can reasonably be a jumping off point to connect it to Baines or any other Hall of Famer who people think don't belong.

[riggs336]

Bud Selig, who's career was built on the backs of steroid users, is in.

Anybody who played in that era, before testing, and whose career numbers are worthy, should be in. Likewise for those players who never tested positive after testing was implemented.

I don't understand how people accept the double-standard with Selig in the Hall and Clemens and Bonds not being in.

I totally agree. I was a Clemens fan and not a fan of Bonds, but both should be in the Hall based on their early careers at least.

[AGuinness]

If not this year, next year is when 'the rubber meets the road' - where all arguments come to a head and the most difficult decisions as to the role of a player's character have to be made.

Thoughts?


.

I think nobody will be elected. And I also don't think next year will necessarily see the rubber hitting the road. At this point, the writers have seemed to embrace punting on Clemens and Bonds (Schilling is a different case) to let the Hall's Era Committees handle it. For other players, very likely with Rodriguez, the same could be the case.
I think Rolen will eventually make it, if not next year then shortly after. Wagner, Sheffield, Helton and Jones seem to have made sizable jumps this year, if the numbers fall in line with the pre-results. They bear watching, although all of them are still on the fence, so to speak, with where they are at.
Vizquel seems to have dropped and I'm guessing the recent news about him would likely continue the drop in future years. He's probably not going to be elected via the writers at this point, but I'd think the Era Committees might put him in down the road.

[Kutcher55]

This is a complex issue. Normally I have always been against moralizing but then I think Bonds and Clemens both blatantly disrespected the game. I would probably vote for them if I had a vote but you gotta admit the ceremony would be pretty awkward. Yes there's plenty of guys who weren't saints in the HOF, the spitballers, the guys who didn't welcome the black players in the 50s, and there are probably a few women beaters in there as well (law of averages).
I don't blame anyone who wouldn't vote for Bonds or Clemens. Like I said complex, highly subjective issue and you can defend either position quite well.

I would personally vote for Schilling (worthy of induction, played the game the right way), Manny Ramirez (I know a HOFer and this guy is a HOFer) and I'd hold my nose and vote for Clemens and Bonds as well. But that's just me. It makes for great debate.

[Mike D.]

Nobody elected in 2021. On the bright side, if there is an induction ceremony, they have the 2020 class to honor.

[Mike D.]

Ortiz’s situation is significantly different than Bonds, Clemens, and Arod...I expect he’ll have a good showing in 2022. May not get 75% (some people still believe in the whole “skipping first year” thing).

[PowderedH2O]

A HOF without the HR champion, Hits champion, the guy with the most Cy Young Awards, and arguably the best postseason pitcher of the last 50 years... But Selig is in. Cap Anson is in. What a joke.

[riggs336]

If nobody gets voted in this years...which looks possible, next years ballot will included:

[B]Schilling, Bonds and Clemens in their 10th and last year on the ballot.



.

Well, as you surmised, no one got in. It will be tough for Bonds and Clemens to pick up over 50 votes next year. Schilling might make it.

[jjp3rd]

Never understood the pass Ortiz gets. I guess being lovable forgives a lot of sins.


Me neither...he was nothing in MN, got to Boston, took the juice and voila!


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

[Mike D.]

Of note that Schilling said some pretty unpopular things AFTER voting was over this year...probably doesn’t bode well for next year.

[Mike D.]

Me neither...he was nothing in MN, got to Boston, took the juice and voila!
Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

If it wasn’t for mandatory testing, then this would be a possible thing.

[AGuinness]

Nobody elected in 2021. On the bright side, if there is an induction ceremony, they have the 2020 class to honor.

Plus there's always a writer who gets elected, I believe. I _think_ in a normal year there would still be a ceremony, but I then I don't think there has been a shutout on the writer's ballot since 1996.

[ThomasL]

Of note that Schilling said some pretty unpopular things AFTER voting was over this year...probably doesn’t bode well for next year.

Honestly I dont think that should matter, nor should a persons voting record or who the stump for politically. Pragmatism of voters should look past that kind of thing and doesnt fall into the purview of the moral clause as who is to dictate who someone can vote for? Say you replace the "issues" with Schilling over to Mike Trout, if we all agree Trout is a lock HOFer would he then not be one simply based on who he voted for or supported as president? Or some jack-assy things he says after his career is over? I argue it shouldnt and this is an ugly precedent being set by voters and a misuse of the morality clause (in Schilling's case). But that's just my take right now.

PED guys, my issue is I would bet there are multiple PED users already in and Selig who turned a blind eye to it is in, plus was what they did against the rules at the time? I dont like it very much but I dont think it is fair to keep Bonds or Clemens out...but would be fair for Ortiz and Ramirez as their infractions came after the bans.

To be nihilistic about it...I dont see anyone getting elected with 75% from now on save for maybe a Trout or Kershaw...unless they vote for the wrong person and are vocal about it

Feel free to tell me Im wrong., as I hope I am.

[AGuinness]

Me neither...he was nothing in MN, got to Boston, took the juice and voila!


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

I guess it's easier to try and rewrite history and wildly speculate rather than look at the facts. This is from Puckett's Pond, so it's from a Twins perspective:

"Ortiz flew through the Twins’ minor league system, hitting almost everything on the way, before making his major league debut at the end of 1997, hitting .327 and one home run in 49 at-bats. In 1998, Ortiz wanted to be the team’s starting first basemen, but manager Tom Kelly had other plans.

Kelly was a good manager for the team, but he valued defense and avoiding strikeouts, and Ortiz wasn’t amazing at either of those parts of his game. Because of this, Ortiz was forced to sit for almost half of the season, only producing a .277 batting average, nine homers, and 46 RBI in 86 games.

Despite his strong hitting, he had to fight for playing time with Doug Mientkiewicz, as Mientkiewicz was a better defender. He was forced to spend 1999 in the minors, where he destroyed Triple-A pitching and greatly outperforming the players in the majors.

Ortiz improved every season, and by 2002, he was a twenty-six year-old who had just hit .272, 20 home runs, and 75 RBI. He was expected to get a large raise over the next offseason, but the Twins were worried about paying him despite his .266 BA, 58 homers, and 238 RBI, and that he was a playoff hero just entering his prime."

[ThomasL]

also Rose knew exactly what he was doing and the consequences of it...fully support his banishment as that was very clear what would happen if you bet on baseball games (doesnt matter if you are manager, player, umpire, owner or bat boy...read up on the rule's history when it was created in 1926-27).

Now when he dies you have a case as I think a lifetime ends when someone dies

[AGuinness]

Honestly I dont think that should matter, nor should a persons voting record or who the stump for politically. Pragmatism of voters should look past that kind of thing and doesnt fall into the purview of the moral clause as who is to dictate who someone can vote for? Say you replace the "issues" with Schilling over to Mike Trout, if we all agree Trout is a lock HOFer would he then not be one simply based on who he voted for or supported as president? Or some jack-assy things he says after his career is over? I argue it shouldnt and this is an ugly precedent being set by voters and a misuse of the morality clause (in Schilling's case). But that's just my take right now.

I hear you and don't want to go down the political rabbit hole here, but I think the case against Schilling isn't necessarily his politics.
I posted something to this effect on CooperstownCred earlier today:
I agree about the larger world of politics (blue/red, Dem/Rep) being kept out of the discussion when it comes to the HOF. Although I see the situation differently regarding Schilling, because his comments have denigrated groups of people (Islam, for instance). That’s not politics.
Along these lines, I think that some players have earned something with voters for having endured racial prejudices in society during their career. Hank and Jackie are two obvious ones. Furthermore, I think that in the future, a number of candidates who will be considered during Eras Committees will be discussed with the context of racism and social justice. As examples, Dick Allen, Minnie Minoso and Buck O’Neil are three potential candidates that could be discussed as early as later in 2021. These players all experienced racism, and I expect that experience will be considered when they are up for Era Committee election.
So in the same line of thought, shouldn’t electors also consider when a HOF candidate contributed (and continues to contribute) and promoted racist rhetoric? If some players are honored for their perseverance in the face of societal racism, shouldn’t those players who helped create that same societal racism have repercussions?

[Tyruscobb]

I respect the voters’ decision to make these guys wait. Most were never suspended and went unpunished for their actions. Keeping them out, at least temporarily, is their punishment for knocking other Hall of Farmers down in the record books. Bravo voters.

[AGuinness]

I respect the voters’ decision to make these guys wait. Most were never suspended and went unpunished for their actions. Keeping them out, at least temporarily, is their punishment for knocking other Hall of Farmers down in the record books. Bravo voters.

That's an interesting point and I was thinking earlier today about the future waves of players who have taken steroids and received suspensions, like Robinson Cano. Do you think the voters are likely to consider these offenders and having "done their time" for taking PEDs and therefore cast a vote (or not) without considering it again? Or will they continue the practice of prolonging the voting process as additional punishment... or not consider them at all?

[Aquarian Sports Cards]

Bud Selig, who's career was built on the backs of steroid users, is in.

Anybody who played in that era, before testing, and whose career numbers are worthy, should be in. Likewise for those players who never tested positive after testing was implemented.

I don't understand how people accept the double-standard with Selig in the Hall and Clemens and Bonds not being in.

Well Selig doesn't belong, so I'm at least consistent! He did more damage to baseball than any modern executive.

[perezfan]

A HOF without the HR champion, Hits champion, the guy with the most Cy Young Awards, and arguably the best postseason pitcher of the last 50 years... But Selig is in. Cap Anson is in. What a joke.

And don't forget Tony LaRussa.

[Tyruscobb]

That's an interesting point and I was thinking earlier today about the future waves of players who have taken steroids and received suspensions, like Robinson Cano. Do you think the voters are likely to consider these offenders and having "done their time" for taking PEDs and therefore cast a vote (or not) without considering it again? Or will they continue the practice of prolonging the voting process as additional punishment... or not consider them at all?

I think all these guys will eventually get in, and their numbers obviously support it. However, I personally like making them wait. How long? That’s up to the voters. Will be interesting to see how the Veterans’ Committee treats them.

I think the younger guys that were caught early in their careers, did their time, apologized and repented, and had solid careers afterwards will be fine. I think the voters will be more forgiving of them, as opposed to the guys that refuse to admit or accept responsibility. Just my two cents. I could be way off base here.

[perezfan]

Well, as you surmised, no one got in. It will be tough for Bonds and Clemens to pick up over 50 votes next year. Schilling might make it.

No on Schilling, unless the Veterans Committee elects him some day. He has asked to be removed from consideration in his final year of eligibility.

As for Bonds and Clemens, it will be interesting. Arod and Ortiz will be on the ballot, and both have an excellent shot. Under normal conditions, I believe Clemens and Bonds would indeed fall short. But it may be tough for voters to justify Ortiz and Arod while shunning Bonds and Clemens... especially on their final ballot.

[conor912]

No on Schilling, unless the Veterans Committee elects him some day. He has asked to be removed from consideration in his final year of eligibility.

I get the PED argument bc that affects performance, but Schill being left out for what mostly boils down to political views is disappointing. I can understand why he'd be fed up with the process.

[riggs336]

No on Schilling, unless the Veterans Committee elects him some day. He has asked to be removed from consideration in his final year of eligibility.

As for Bonds and Clemens, it will be interesting. Arod and Ortiz will be on the ballot, and both have an excellent shot. Under normal conditions, I believe Clemens and Bonds would indeed fall short. But it may be tough for voters to justify Ortiz and Arod while shunning Bonds and Clemens... especially on their final ballot.

Certainly a feasible perspective. We could have an All-PED class next year. On the other hand there were fourteen blank ballots this year; I predict many more blanks next year as a measure of protest.

[FrankWakefield]

I think Pete Rose was a great hitter. And I'm certain he shouldn't get into the Hall except for when he's purchased an admission ticket. Read The Fix Is In, by Daniel Ginsburg. After reading that, you can still be a Rose fan, but your brain will understand why Pete can't get in, even if your heart wants him in.

Some, a few, of the peds guys were using stuff before there were rules prohibiting use of some of the substances. I don't like the use of that stuff at all, but I see a difference in using something illegal, and in using something that hasn't been ruled on at the time.

I'm a bit biased about McGwire. I think he should one day get in, and definitely Bonds and Sosa. I think A-Rod should get in. Baseball already got their vengeance on him by banning him for a year.

I don't think Clemons should get in. And I think Schilling falls a bit short of my opinion of what a HOFer should be. He was a great pitcher, and great big game pitcher. A smart, thinking pitcher. But short of HOF caliber.

There's a dozen or more folks I'd unvote, if I were the Grand Poobah of the Hall. Kirby Puckett would be the first one out. Baines would be out. There are more who'd go. But fortunately for baseball fans I'm not the Grand Poobah.

Back to Rose... I saw him play in 1964. And I saw him get the hit to pass Ty Cobb's career hits record (I went to the game before that, no hits, and in the parking structure this guy was melting down about no hits, having to work the next night, and he had 4 tickets for the next night. My friends and I bought those tickets, I think $30 each, and saw history). I saw Pete lots. But gambling is what stymied the development of professional baseball at its inception, and only the strict prohibitions about gambling allowed the game to thrive. Pete knew this. He knew not to gamble on the games. BS on telling anyone he only bet for the Reds to win, what the hell is the bookie to think when Pete placed some bet but didn't want to bet on the outcome of the Reds' game??? Pete deserves his hit record, he was a hustling, hitting, pitcher studying machine. But he doesn't deserve the Hall. And hopefully the Hall doesn't go so far downhill that it deserves Pete.

[jayshum]

I think all these guys will eventually get in, and their numbers obviously support it. However, I personally like making them wait. How long? That’s up to the voters. Will be interesting to see how the Veterans’ Committee treats them.

I think the younger guys that were caught early in their careers, did their time, apologized and repented, and had solid careers afterwards will be fine. I think the voters will be more forgiving of them, as opposed to the guys that refuse to admit or accept responsibility. Just my two cents. I could be way off base here.

I have read numerous voters saying that they are willing to vote for players like Bonds, Clemens and Sosa because they never failed a test and were playing before baseball had specific rules on the books. However, they won't vote for people that were caught (like ARod and Manny) once testing was implemented. If Bonds and Clemens don't make it in, I find it hard to believe the ones that actually got caught by testing ever will. Their only real chance is that as new voters are added to the BBWAA and older ones stop voting, there may be different feelings about the PED era since they didn't live through it and weren't covering it when it was happening.

[jayshum]

I think Bonds is in. Clemens, not sure.

Curious why you think Bonds would get in but not Clemens. Their vote totals are usually almost the same each year so it looks like most voters either are a yes or no on both of them with very little splitting their votes.

[brett 75]

And don't forget Tony LaRussa.

I’ll drink to that😁😁.
The players like Rose , Bonds , Clemens may not have plaques in the hall with the others but they do have plenty of pictures, bats and balls etc.from there playing days that the Hall showcases. I found that a little odd. Rose not likely to ever get in , Bonds and Clemens will eventually I feel.
Brett

[jayshum]

The players like Rose , Bonds , Clemens may not have plaques in the hall with the others but they do have plenty of pictures, bats and balls etc.from there playing days that the Hall showcases. I found that a little odd. Rose not likely to ever get in , Bonds and Clemens will eventually I feel.
Brett

Many people make a distinction between the plaque gallery and the museum portions of the Hall of Fame. You're right that Bonds, Clemens, Rose, Jackson and others are part of the museum and have many artifacts and references from their playing days there. However, keeping them out of the plaque gallery is a way of not honoring them like those players who do have plaques.

[ThomasL]

I hear you and don't want to go down the political rabbit hole here, but I think the case against Schilling isn't necessarily his politics.
I posted something to this effect on CooperstownCred earlier today:
I agree about the larger world of politics (blue/red, Dem/Rep) being kept out of the discussion when it comes to the HOF. Although I see the situation differently regarding Schilling, because his comments have denigrated groups of people (Islam, for instance). That’s not politics.
Along these lines, I think that some players have earned something with voters for having endured racial prejudices in society during their career. Hank and Jackie are two obvious ones. Furthermore, I think that in the future, a number of candidates who will be considered during Eras Committees will be discussed with the context of racism and social justice. As examples, Dick Allen, Minnie Minoso and Buck O’Neil are three potential candidates that could be discussed as early as later in 2021. These players all experienced racism, and I expect that experience will be considered when they are up for Era Committee election.
So in the same line of thought, shouldn’t electors also consider when a HOF candidate contributed (and continues to contribute) and promoted racist rhetoric? If some players are honored for their perseverance in the face of societal racism, shouldn’t those players who helped create that same societal racism have repercussions?

I believe Schilling apologized publicly for those comments I think you're referring to didnt he? If so why cant we accept that and move on (as far as HOF voting goes)

What about his ALS charitable work or does only a persons mistakes, errors and terrible moments count here?

Im not intending to sound like a Schilling schill here but only trying to be pragmatic about his HOF candacy is all

I think he's a HOFer based on his postseason work on the field. Perfect person...far from it...someone worthy of ignoring his baseball career and good deeds based on things he's said (some if not all of which he apologized for) I think is pushing the meaning of the moral clause too far...again just my opinion and I may be wrong and that's fine with me too.

I will also add I love drinking Guinness

[Mike D.]

My take on Rose is that he can go in as soon as he's finished serving his lifetime ban. I don't have a problem with him being in, I just don't want him up on the podium giving a speech.

Maybe they need that option for guys like Rose and Schilling. The "you can attend and wave, but no talking" category. :D

Rose was a great player and a worthy Hall of Famer, but I feel like the ban makes him far more "famous" than his skills. I mean, if you look at his career WAR, it's 79.7. Rod Carew's is 81.3. Rose gets a LOT more ink than Rod Carew!

[Mike D.]

It'd be really nice if the hall would come out with some clarity on the "character clause" - maybe say focus just on their playing career and that stuff (did they do charity work, were they a good teammate, etc.)

Because man, this isn't nearly as fun as it should be...the HOF debate should be the highlight of the winter, and a celebration of the greats of the game...not a discussion of how much leeway we give to loudmouths, PED users (real or imagined), spouse abusers, and the like.

Give me the good old days of Bert Blyleven, Tim Raines, Jack Morris, etc.

[riggs336]

I remember a guy from White Plains telling me Duke Snider should never be in the Hall because "Ebbets Field was a bandbox". Now that was the kind of HOF argument I miss. I was Team Duke by the way.

[ThomasL]

It'd be really nice if the hall would come out with some clarity on the "character clause" - maybe say focus just on their playing career and that stuff (did they do charity work, were they a good teammate, etc.)

Because man, this isn't nearly as fun as it should be...the HOF debate should be the highlight of the winter, and a celebration of the greats of the game...not a discussion of how much leeway we give to loudmouths, PED users (real or imagined), spouse abusers, and the like.

Give me the good old days of Bert Blyleven, Tim Raines, Jack Morris, etc.


100% with you on this...sad by product of the world we find ourselves in

[Ricky]

I think Pete Rose was a great hitter. And I'm certain he shouldn't get into the Hall except for when he's purchased an admission ticket. Read The Fix Is In, by Daniel Ginsburg. After reading that, you can still be a Rose fan, but your brain will understand why Pete can't get in, even if your heart wants him in.

Some, a few, of the peds guys were using stuff before there were rules prohibiting use of some of the substances. I don't like the use of that stuff at all, but I see a difference in using something illegal, and in using something that hasn't been ruled on at the time.

I'm a bit biased about McGwire. I think he should one day get in, and definitely Bonds and Sosa. I think A-Rod should get in. Baseball already got their vengeance on him by banning him for a year.

I don't think Clemons should get in. And I think Schilling falls a bit short of my opinion of what a HOFer should be. He was a great pitcher, and great big game pitcher. A smart, thinking pitcher. But short of HOF caliber.

There's a dozen or more folks I'd unvote, if I were the Grand Poobah of the Hall. Kirby Puckett would be the first one out. Baines would be out. There are more who'd go. But fortunately for baseball fans I'm not the Grand Poobah.

Back to Rose... I saw him play in 1964. And I saw him get the hit to pass Ty Cobb's career hits record (I went to the game before that, no hits, and in the parking structure this guy was melting down about no hits, having to work the next night, and he had 4 tickets for the next night. My friends and I bought those tickets, I think $30 each, and saw history). I saw Pete lots. But gambling is what stymied the development of professional baseball at its inception, and only the strict prohibitions about gambling allowed the game to thrive. Pete knew this. He knew not to gamble on the games. BS on telling anyone he only bet for the Reds to win, what the hell is the bookie to think when Pete placed some bet but didn't want to bet on the outcome of the Reds' game??? Pete deserves his hit record, he was a hustling, hitting, pitcher studying machine. But he doesn't deserve the Hall. And hopefully the Hall doesn't go so far downhill that it deserves Pete.

Frank, curious as to why you think bonds and Sosa should definitely get in but not Clemens?

[FrankWakefield]

At a point in time when the rules were clear, he continued using, and lied about using.

Imagine a count of all the Clemens fans back then... subtract out everyone under 13 and over 25, then subtract out those guys and gals not playing baseball or softball... what's left are a bunch of possible imitator kids who were good candidates for trying peds because they wanted to do better at high school or college ball.

I admit I'm biased against Clemons. I think he was a HOF caliber pitcher who persisted in fooling with peds way too long. It was bad for him, bad for baseball, bad for baseball fans, and bad for a bunch of kids.

And I think I'm in the minority and there's a bunch of Clemons fans and supporters. I understand we live in a democracy of sorts. I'm ok with going along with what the majority votes. But that doesn't mean the majority is right... sometimes they are, and sometimes in some instances a majority can be mistaken or wrong.

[Peter_Spaeth]

A HOF without the HR champion, Hits champion, the guy with the most Cy Young Awards, and arguably the best postseason pitcher of the last 50 years... But Selig is in. Cap Anson is in. What a joke.

And 100 guys who used amphetamines.

[Rich Klein]

Curt Schllling on his FB page has officially sent a letter to the HOF asking that he not be on the 2022 ballot. We'll see if that stands,

https://www.foxnews.com/sports/curt-schilling-blasts-baseball-hall-of-fame-after-falling-short-requests-off-2022-ballot?fbclid=IwAR0B8iIWNBYvJjV6iFyYEUkETuBDYAU8sX o357MTeCoF3KsgCzIvUMMaTBo

Rich

[Peter_Spaeth]

Seeing who is in there how is Curt Schilling not a HOF pitcher? Or do you now have to be politically correct too?

[Peter_Spaeth]

Curt Schllling on his FB page has officially sent a letter to the HOF asking that he not be on the 2022 ballot. We'll see if that stands,

https://www.foxnews.com/sports/curt-schilling-blasts-baseball-hall-of-fame-after-falling-short-requests-off-2022-ballot?fbclid=IwAR0B8iIWNBYvJjV6iFyYEUkETuBDYAU8sX o357MTeCoF3KsgCzIvUMMaTBo

Rich

It's probably reverse psychology or something.

[Gorditadogg]

I totally agree. I was a Clemens fan and not a fan of Bonds, but both should be in the Hall based on their early careers at least.That's not a good argument. You want to say your Moser card should get a PSA 7 because that's what it was before it was doctored, but it doesn't work that way. Bonds and Clemens' careers were fraudulently altered, so they don't get a grade.

And Bud Selig needs to be booted from the Hall, that man is much more of a disgrace to the game than any player, because he knew what was going on with steroids and condoned it.

Sent from my SM-G955U using Tapatalk

[Peter_Spaeth]

That's not a good argument. You want to say your Moser card should get a PSA 7 because that's what it was before it was doctored, but it doesn't work that way. Bonds and Clemens' careers were fraudulently altered, so they don't get a grade.

And Bud Selig needs to be booted from the Hall, that man is much more of a disgrace to the game than any player, because he knew what was going on with steroids and condoned it.

Sent from my SM-G955U using Tapatalk

Suppose it was undisputed that Clemens didn't start until after he won his 300th game, or Bonds until after his 600th home run. Careers still altered? You see where the logic of this is going I assume

[AGuinness]

I believe Schilling apologized publicly for those comments I think you're referring to didnt he? If so why cant we accept that and move on (as far as HOF voting goes)

What about his ALS charitable work or does only a persons mistakes, errors and terrible moments count here?

Im not intending to sound like a Schilling schill here but only trying to be pragmatic about his HOF candacy is all

I think he's a HOFer based on his postseason work on the field. Perfect person...far from it...someone worthy of ignoring his baseball career and good deeds based on things he's said (some if not all of which he apologized for) I think is pushing the meaning of the moral clause too far...again just my opinion and I may be wrong and that's fine with me too.

I will also add I love drinking Guinness

Guinness is just a wonderful beer. It gets partial, yet significant, credit for my username. Also a big fan of Alec Guinness...

Schilling may have apologized for some of his comments, but there has been at least one recent one I would include as racist. But yes, apologies begin the healing process and should be factored in.
His ALS work should totally be factored in, too. In fact, I find it surprising that I never see it mentioned that he won the Roberto Clemente Award in 2001. He's done positive things, for sure. His candidacy is so complicated on so many levels, way beyond the field.
Limited to his performance on the field. I think Schilling is a beyond-a-doubt Hall of Famer, a clearly worthy candidate who should have/would have been in years ago.

Now... let's continue this conversation over a Guinness...

[conor912]

It’s a slippery slope trying to determine who started taking PEDs to stay on top vs get on top.

[Peter_Spaeth]

It’s a slippery slope trying to determine who started taking PEDs to stay on top vs get on top.

For sure, but I think at least in theory there is room for an argument that a guy who clearly had a HOF career pre stuff is deserving.

[Redleg25]

The fact that Gil Hodges isn't in is a travesty

[Harliduck]

The fact that Gil Hodges isn't in is a travesty

1000% agree. I simply don't understand. Total travesty...

[Wimberleycardcollector]

Is anyone surprised by any of this? This day and age where people are completely cancelling out founders, leaders and people who accomplished great things for our country and people? People who by any standards were flawed and not perfect? People who lived during a time when social culture was different. The game is no different. People and players aren’t less perfect and never will be. The lines will just be drawn differently to allow some other imperfect people to reach their goals. This country used to be about equal opportunity based on your efforts. It’s becoming more about equal outcomes with less effort and a whole bunch of asterisks added at the end. In other words if you have it I should have it. If I can’t have it then either should you no matter how hard you worked for it at your job or on the field. I’m referring more to schilling here. All around not a perfect person but either we’re a lot of greats. His efforts on the field deserve recognition though.

[Seven]

The Hall is a Museum that honors baseball History. We try to make history as objective as possible. To not enshrine the players, that have accomplished some of the greatest feats in the game's history, aided or not by the use of PED's does not paint the whole picture.

The "Character and Integrity" Clause seems to only apply to certain players but not others. Put Bonds and Clemens in, Throw an asterisk on their plaque or put it in a wing for PED users, but they belong in the Hall of Fame, in my opinion.

[Wimberleycardcollector]

Well said. Agree 100 percent. I Probably shouldn’t be posting while fighting COVID. This stuff is a beast.

[Rich Klein]

The fact that Gil Hodges isn't in is a travesty

I was watching the MLB Network announcement *TY Facebook as my cable system no longer carries MLB* and Gil Hodges is as of today, the ONLY person no longer on the ballot who has garnered 50 percent or more of the writers votes and not be inducted.

I think if he had lived a normal life span and managed another decade or so, he'd have been in around 1980.

Rich

[toledo_mudhen]

The fact that Gil Hodges isn't in is a travesty

Have thought the same thing for many years - WTF - How is he not in?

What am I missing?

[Gorditadogg]

Suppose it was undisputed that Clemens didn't start until after he won his 300th game, or Bonds until after his 600th home run. Careers still altered? You see where the logic of this is going I assumeThe analogy still holds I think all the way to the fringes. I am sure you could list examples where it is arguable whether or not a card should be considered altered.

But the reality for Bonds and Clemens is the alteration was blatant and significant. PED use distorted their skills over several years and as a result most of the major awards they received are undeserved and their career numbers are fake.

Sent from my SM-G955U using Tapatalk

[OldOriole]

Not really. In 1936 Shoeless Joe Jackson received 2 votes for the Hall of Fame. In 1937 he received 0. It is pretty clear from the beginning that character was a major component of election to the Hall of Fame.

Well said.

There's no way I would every be able to vote for someone who knowingly cheated by taking a banned substance to better their game. They knew it was against the rules, then denied using, only to paint themselves into a corner. The sad part is they didn't need to do it - they were already amazing players. Couldn't control their egos.

[Aquarian Sports Cards]

The analogy still holds I think all the way to the fringes. I am sure you could list examples where it is arguable whether or not a card should be considered altered.

But the reality for Bonds and Clemens is the alteration was blatant and significant. PED use distorted their skills over several years and as a result most of the major awards they received are undeserved and their career numbers are fake.

Sent from my SM-G955U using Tapatalk

Looking at his health and numbers I speculate that Clemens started juicing on his arrival in Toronto. I don't feel he was a HOF'er based on just his numbers in Boston. I realize that it's conjecture, but it's my fake vote.

Bonds was on a HOF track all along and was jealous of juicers so he became one. I just think of the numbers Griffey would've put up if he had done the same. In all likelihood his down times would've been shorter (McGwire basically juiced to stay on the field, yes it increased his power but he hit 49 Home runs as a clean rookie, he was a beast who just couldn't stay healthy until he juiced.) and his production would've been ridiculous as he was a better hitter than clean Bonds.

Bonds should be in, but I don't care when or if it happens.

[insidethewrapper]

I never understood why some drugs are OK and others are not OK to enhance performance. More than 10% of the players use medication for Attention Deficit Disorder, this greatly helps their attention and concentration at the plate. How about eye surgury etc. which has increased better vision to 20/10 etc. These are Ok because they are legal. Tommy John surgery is becoming routine to increase speed etc. It's all a bunch of crap. Put the best players in the Hall ( Rose, Bonds, Clemens, Arod ). I have no problems with these 4 guys. Tons of players took steroids but they were not as good as these guys.

[packs]

I disagree. The punishment fits the crime in each case. These guys cheated because they couldn't accomplish what they did otherwise. So, in exchange they got to hit their milestones but the HOF is closed to them. They should have known as much when they did what they did and they did it anyway. Therefore, you can only assume it was more important to Bonds that he break the record than it was for him to get into the HOF. We should not feel as though he has been cheated in anyway because he's gotten exactly what he bargained for.

[Chris Counts]

No new HOFers = another big fail for the Hall of Fame. I despise this country club mentality that keeps so many great players outside Cooperstown. There are a couple dozen guys that should have been in years ago. Once MLB put Selig in, the HOF shredded whatever credibility it had. Which shouldn't be too much of a surprise, since the entire concept of the Hall of Fame is based on the lie that Abner Doubleday invented baseball in Cooperstown. It was nothing but a real estate scheme, combined with an attempt to deny the debt baseball owned to older sports like cricket and rounders. It's as if baseball magically sprouted up in a cow pasture in upstate New York.

I agree Selig needs to get the boot. He was a disgrace to the game.

[campyfan39]

Gil Hodges and Curt Schilling should be in and no doubters IMO

I also agree with the poster who said Bud Selig should not be in.

[rats60]

The Hall is a Museum that honors baseball History. We try to make history as objective as possible. To not enshrine the players, that have accomplished some of the greatest feats in the game's history, aided or not by the use of PED's does not paint the whole picture.

The "Character and Integrity" Clause seems to only apply to certain players but not others. Put Bonds and Clemens in, Throw an asterisk on their plaque or put it in a wing for PED users, but they belong in the Hall of Fame, in my opinion.

There is a display on steroids at the HOF. Bonds, Clemens and other steroids users are part of that. There is no need to honor them with a plaque.

[packs]

Who hasn't had the character clause appropriately applied to them? Popular answer is usually Ty Cobb but in the interest of transparency let's get it out there that Stump's book was a work of fiction and nothing common knowledge about Cobb is true.

[clydepepper]

I'll repeat my plea for the three Cubans to join Tony Perez.

Minoso, Tiant and Oliva.

.

[Ricky]

I never understood why some drugs are OK and others are not OK to enhance performance. More than 10% of the players use medication for Attention Deficit Disorder, this greatly helps their attention and concentration at the plate. How about eye surgury etc. which has increased better vision to 20/10 etc. These are Ok because they are legal. Tommy John surgery is becoming routine to increase speed etc. It's all a bunch of crap. Put the best players in the Hall ( Rose, Bonds, Clemens, Arod ). I have no problems with these 4 guys. Tons of players took steroids but they were not as good as these guys.

Rose bet on baseball and should not be grouped in with the others.

[clydepepper]

Rose bet on baseball and should not be grouped in with the others.



If Rose ever gets in it should be after he's dead. So many others have waited and waited - only to end up like Santo- he deserves at least that punishment.

[insidethewrapper]

Now you see former players advertising to Bet and gamble. Times sure have changed. How many people even watch anymore without playing daily fantasy ? Or now you can bet on every play and at bat during the game. I think Rose bet on his team to Win. Doesn't seem so bad based on the current state of affairs. I guess it's ok to use an emory board or rosin bag or grease the ball to get a better grip and throw the ball faster, or throw a spit ball in the past and cheat etc. etc.

[steve B]

I never understood why some drugs are OK and others are not OK to enhance performance. More than 10% of the players use medication for Attention Deficit Disorder, this greatly helps their attention and concentration at the plate. How about eye surgury etc. which has increased better vision to 20/10 etc. These are Ok because they are legal. Tommy John surgery is becoming routine to increase speed etc. It's all a bunch of crap. Put the best players in the Hall ( Rose, Bonds, Clemens, Arod ). I have no problems with these 4 guys. Tons of players took steroids but they were not as good as these guys.

It sort of depends which one they're taking, and if they do or don't actually have it.

I do, and my current stuff is...... exactly what the ballplayers were taking in the 70's. In fact, I remarked to my doctor that the initial dose, made me feel like a major league ballplayer. I had to explain that the pills were green, just like the "greenies" the 70's guys took... she thought that was pretty funny.

If you're "normal" all it does is make you wired. If you have an appropriate amount and need it? It gives you enough focus to pay attention to a pitchers/batters current tendencies in team meetings.

That's about all. Anything different I'd chalk up to a placebo effect.


------------------------------
There's a weird hyperfocus thing that happens, all I can say is that it's probably like when a player says they're "in the zone". At least it is for me. Everything seems to happen like slow motion, perfectly and easily, and it's almost like knowing the result in advance. But it comes unbidden, and lasts anywhere from a few seconds to maybe a minute and a half? And goes just as quick.
Last time for me was pre medication, playing basketball, at which I'm normally just bad. But then there was a stretch of three no look no hesitation jump/hook shots that were as perfect as anything. Immediately followed by a shot so bad it hit nothing at all. As were my next two shots and most of the passes after I gave up shooting....

Started meds soon after, and it hasn't happened in about 15 years.

[Scocs]

Can someone please explain how and why Bud Selig got inducted into the hall of fame?! Does every commissioner eventually get inducted?

[Ricky]

Now you see former players advertising to Bet and gamble. Times sure have changed. How many people even watch anymore without playing daily fantasy ? Or now you can bet on every play and at bat during the game. I think Rose bet on his team to Win. Doesn't seem so bad based on the current state of affairs. I guess it's ok to use an emory board or rosin bag or grease the ball to get a better grip and throw the ball faster, or throw a spit ball in the past and cheat etc. etc.

It’s very clearly explained to every player about not betting on baseball and what the penalty is. Whether Rose bet on his team to win or not, he knew exactly that he shouldn’t be doing it and he is paying the price.

[egri]

It sort of depends which one they're taking, and if they do or don't actually have it.

I do, and my current stuff is...... exactly what the ballplayers were taking in the 70's. In fact, I remarked to my doctor that the initial dose, made me feel like a major league ballplayer. I had to explain that the pills were green, just like the "greenies" the 70's guys took... she thought that was pretty funny.

If you're "normal" all it does is make you wired. If you have an appropriate amount and need it? It gives you enough focus to pay attention to a pitchers/batters current tendencies in team meetings.

That's about all. Anything different I'd chalk up to a placebo effect.


------------------------------
There's a weird hyperfocus thing that happens, all I can say is that it's probably like when a player says they're "in the zone". At least it is for me. Everything seems to happen like slow motion, perfectly and easily, and it's almost like knowing the result in advance. But it comes unbidden, and lasts anywhere from a few seconds to maybe a minute and a half? And goes just as quick.
Last time for me was pre medication, playing basketball, at which I'm normally just bad. But then there was a stretch of three no look no hesitation jump/hook shots that were as perfect as anything. Immediately followed by a shot so bad it hit nothing at all. As were my next two shots and most of the passes after I gave up shooting....

Started meds soon after, and it hasn't happened in about 15 years.

When one of my cousins was at boarding school, the school had a big scandal where kids with prescriptions were selling Adderall to other students right before the SATs and AP Exams. He wasn't involved, but I've always wondered how much of a boost it gave the kids who did use it, if it actually worked or if it was just hypercompetitive kids psyching themselves.

[Seven]

There is a display on steroids at the HOF. Bonds, Clemens and other steroids users are part of that. There is no need to honor them with a plaque.

I've seen the display, It's nice. But why do we draw lines in the Sand with Clemens and Bonds when we didn't for Ivan Rodriguez? There are confirmed PED users in the Hall already. Why do they get to stay in, when they cheated the game, just like Bonds and Clemens did?

I just hate the "Holier than thou" attitude the Writers take. Clemens and Bonds statistically are two of the greatest players to step on a Baseball field. That will never change, the numbers are set in stone. You stick an asterisk on the Plaque and it ensures that while they made the Hall, that they cheated and that will be apart of their legacy until the end of time.

This is just my opinion, we can agree to disagree though.

[triwak]

I'm disappointed by the lack of inductions, but for more personal (and somewhat sentimental) card-related reasons. There's still a small brick and mortar card shop in my town, very near my favorite watering hole. Every January, I would go down to the shop, pick up the latest Hall inductees (usually for a buck or two), and march over to the bar to show them off to the 3 or 4 friends who are baseball fans (and drink pretty much daily)! This would invariably lead to discussions like we're having here, and more importantly, predictions about the upcoming season, Spring training, player transactions, etc. Well... none of that this year. The pub has closed (at least for now), no one's really out and about anyway, the start of the season may still be in flux, and now no HOFers to add to my collection. Sorry for the sappiness, but this has become a ritual that I really enjoy. Plus, I will be moving to another state soon, so this may have been the last brick and mortar purchase ever? We'll see, I guess. And for what it's worth, I would have voted for Schilling, Bonds, Clemens, and Rolen.

[perezfan]

I'll repeat my plea for the three Cubans to join Tony Perez.

Minoso, Tiant and Oliva.

.

While I agree with nobody being voted into the Hall this year (by the writers), I do think those three fellows are "Hall Worthy" via the Veterans Committee. Especially Minoso.

Of all the names being thrown around in this thread, I most root for Hodges and Minoso to get in some day. Buck O'Neil is another (who's not yet been mentioned here, unless I missed it). I like to look at the Players' entire body of work, instead of just stats. Statistics do not tell the whole story.

[ejharrington]

If Curt is on the ballot next year, he gets my vote.

[Seven]

While I agree with nobody being voted into the Hall this year (by the writers), I do think those three fellows are "Hall Worthy" via the Veterans Committee. Especially Minoso.

Of all the names being thrown around in this thread, I most root for Hodges and Minoso to get in some day. Buck O'Neil is another (who's not yet been mentioned here, unless I missed it). I like to look at the Players' entire body of work, instead of just stats. Statistics do not tell the whole story.

I'd agree with that as well. Would love for Dick Allen to get some consideration, and Gil Hodges as well. I think Hodges can get in through the Golden Era Committee

[jayshum]

I'd agree with that as well. Would love for Dick Allen to get some consideration, and Gil Hodges as well. I think Hodges can get in through the Golden Era Committee

As a Phillies fan, I was hoping to see Dick Allen go in as well. I still hope it happens when the Veteran's Committee (or whatever it's called these days) meets at the end of the year, but now that he has died, it won't be the same even if he does get in. It will be a shame that he didn't live to enjoy the honor.

[Mark17]

I never understood why some drugs are OK and others are not OK to enhance performance. More than 10% of the players use medication for Attention Deficit Disorder, this greatly helps their attention and concentration at the plate. How about eye surgury etc. which has increased better vision to 20/10 etc. These are Ok because they are legal. Tommy John surgery is becoming routine to increase speed etc. It's all a bunch of crap. Put the best players in the Hall ( Rose, Bonds, Clemens, Arod ). I have no problems with these 4 guys. Tons of players took steroids but they were not as good as these guys.

I agree. From wikipedia: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sandy_Koufax

To get himself [Koufax] through the games he pitched in, Koufax resorted to Empirin with codeine for the pain, which he took every night and sometimes during the fifth inning. He also took Butazolidin for inflammation, applied capsaicin-based Capsolin ointment (called "atomic balm" by baseball players) before each game, and soaked his arm in a tub of ice afterwards.

So who had their performance enhanced by drugs more, Clemens or Koufax? Clemens was a well above average pitcher without drugs, while Koufax couldn't pitch at all without them.

I'm not running down Koufax at all, just saying, if you want to rank players in terms of the difference drugs played in their performance, Koufax is #1, benefiting far more than any other player, going from not being able to pitch, to having that great 1966 season.

[Mike D.]

Are there “confirmed” PED users in the hall, or “presumed”? I don’t recall Rodriquez failing a test. Unless we’re taking anything Jose Canseco said as “proof”.

I hate that the HOF discussion has come down to discussions of "back ache" and assumptions of guilt or innocence.

Can steroid use cause back-ache? Sure...but you know what else can? Squatting in the summer hear for the better part of 3 hours on a dusty field while wearing polyester. :)

[Mike D.]

Looking at his health and numbers I speculate that Clemens started juicing on his arrival in Toronto. I don't feel he was a HOF'er based on just his numbers in Boston. I realize that it's conjecture, but it's my fake vote.

Based on just the Boston years, Clemens probably just misses on longevity. At the time, he was 33 and coming off two so-so seasons. If instead of winning 4 Cy Young awards over the next 11 years, what if he'd had a "normal" decline phase...3-4 seasons at or just below the level of his prior two seasons (20-18, 3.83 ERA).

He was 192-111 with a 3.06 ERA in Boston. Add in two seasons like that, and he's 212-129 with an ERA around 3.20. Curt Schilling was 216-146 with an 3.46 ERA.

So, normal decline, I think Clemens is in...without, it's a "dominance without longevity" case for sure.

[Seven]

Are there “confirmed” PED users in the hall, or “presumed”? I don’t recall Rodriquez failing a test. Unless we’re taking anything Jose Canseco said as “proof”.

I hate that the HOF discussion has come down to discussions of "back ache" and assumptions of guilt or innocence.

Can steroid use cause back-ache? Sure...but you know what else can? Squatting in the summer hear for the better part of 3 hours on a dusty field while wearing polyester. :)

Rodriguez is "presumed" Frank Thomas made some comments about him a while back, but as for confirmed players that have taken PED's that are in the Hall:

Babe Ruth had Goat Testosterone Injected
Mantle, Aaron and Schmidt: All used Amphetamines at least once.
Koufax abused Pain Pills to pitch
Goose Gossage used Amphetamines as well.

Doesn't matter how little or how often they did it, they used at least once.

[Mike D.]

Rodriguez is "presumed" Frank Thomas made some comments about him a while back, but as for confirmed players that have taken PED's that are in the Hall:

Babe Ruth had Goat Testosterone Injected
Mantle, Aaron and Schmidt: All used Amphetamines at least once.
Koufax abused Pain Pills to pitch
Goose Gossage used Amphetamines as well.

Doesn't matter how little or how often they did it, they used at least once.

Those are all a bit different than taking steroids/HGH after it's been explicitly banned and is being tested for...both from a legal and "baseball rules" standpoint (written and/or enforced).

But on the other hand...there ya go. Instruct the voters to no longer consider PED use when filling out their ballots, and we're back to the normal arguments!

Also...goat testosterone?! Dear God...that stuff is problematic enough in GOATS, never mind baseball players! :eek:

[tedzan]

Gil Hodges and Allie Reynolds deserve to be in the HOF. I don't understand why Hodges isn't. He was a great team player (defensively and at bat). Other than Lou Gehrig....name
a (PED-free) BB player who had 7 consecutive 100+ RBI seasons (1949 - 1955) like Gil Hodges ?

Regarding Curt Schilling.....he has said some "politically incorrect" comments....SO WHAT ! His performance on the BB field, and his positive deeds (ALS charity work, etc.) off the
BB field are what really matter.

But, who am I to judge. I will leave you with a quote to consider from a man with a lot of wisdom.....

" Once a government is committed to the principle of silencing the voice of opposition, it has only one way to go,
and that is down the path of increasingly repressive measures until it becomes a source of terror to all its citizens
and creates a country where everyone lives in fear. " - - - - President Harry S. Truman


TED Z
.

[Seven]

Those are all a bit different than taking steroids/HGH after it's been explicitly banned and is being tested for...both from a legal and "baseball rules" standpoint (written and/or enforced).

But on the other hand...there ya go. Instruct the voters to no longer consider PED use when filling out their ballots, and we're back to the normal arguments!

Also...goat testosterone?! Dear God...that stuff is problematic enough in GOATS, never mind baseball players! :eek:

Concerning your first point I suppose your right, Iw as speaking more towards the "which players took substances" group when they played. That's just the tip of the iceberg when it came to Amphetamine abuse in baseball, people have speculated roughly half the league was on them at one point. Bowls of them were found in the Clubhouse, the notion that players, taking substances/drugs, is a recent problem is flawed.

Pud Galvin was taking Monkey Testosterone way back. Mantle was receiving injections with a concoction of "amphetamines laced with vitamins, human placenta, and eel cells" in 1961. Mantle actually ended up missing time because of it, the injection went bad and caused an abscess.



Gil Hodges and Allie Reynolds deserve to be in the HOF. I don't understand why Hodges isn't. He was a great team player (defensively and at bat). Other than Lou Gehrig....name
a (PED-free) BB player who had 7 consecutive 100+ RBI seasons (1949 - 1955) like Gil Hodges ?

Regarding Curt Schilling.....he has said some "politically incorrect" comments....SO WHAT ! His performance on the BB field, and his positive deeds (ALS charity work, etc.) off the
BB field are what really matter.

But, who am I to judge. I will leave you with a quote to consider from a man with a lot of wisdom.....

" Once a government is committed to the principle of silencing the voice of opposition, it has only one way to go,
and that is down the path of increasingly repressive measures until it becomes a source of terror to all its citizens
and creates a country where everyone lives in fear. " - - - - President Harry S. Truman


TED Z
.

Ted 100% agree with you. I think Schilling is very outspoken but there's nothing wrong with that. This is a free country, he can express whatever opinion he believes. He deserves to be in the Hall.

[Mike D.]

Concerning your first point I suppose your right, Iw as speaking more towards the "which players took substances" group when they played. That's just the tip of the iceberg when it came to Amphetamine abuse in baseball, people have speculated roughly half the league was on them at one point. Bowls of them were found in the Clubhouse, the notion that players, taking substances/drugs, is a recent problem is flawed.

Pud Galvin was taking Monkey Testosterone way back. Mantle was receiving injections with a concoction of "amphetamines laced with vitamins, human placenta, and eel cells" in 1961. Mantle actually ended up missing time because of it, the injection went bad and caused an abscess.


So, it's not that the player became less "pure" or "sportsmanlike", it's that the drugs got better?

Steroids/HGH > Greenies > Goat and Monkey juice and eels

[Ricky]

Are we really comparing amphetamines to steroids/HGH?

As far as Schilling, he has the right to say whatever he wants, like advocating the killing of journalists... and journalists, likewise, have the right to not vote for him.

[Scocs]

Again, how and why is Selig in?

[Ricky]

Lost all respect for Selig when he didn’t step in and protect Aaron’s record by stopping Bonds. He damn well knew what bonds was doing.

[Seven]

Are we really comparing amphetamines to steroids/HGH?

As far as Schilling, he has the right to say whatever he wants, like advocating the killing of journalists... and journalists, likewise, have the right to not vote for him.

Do they impact a players performance in a positive way? If the answer is yes, then they are a PED, If PED users are considered cheaters than I don't understand why we absolve the guys who used one type of drug and condemn the other set of guys that used a different type of drug

And I wouldn't normally have any issue with this, but the same writers that are keeping Bonds and Clemens out are the ones that voted for them for MVP and Cy Young. Plus Selig fully knew what was going on in the sport, profited from it, yet condemns the players after the fact.

[clydepepper]

Excuse me if I didn't read all the previous posts to see if anyone already said this (I'm old and it's late here) ...

I think almost all of us believe the current system is bad.

______________________________________________

Why not split the vote between all former players and the baseball writers?

?????????????????????????????????????????????????? ????????????????

Or...even...split three ways and include the fans.

?????????????????????????????????????????????????? ???????????????

Of course, the candidates would still have to qualify as they do now...10 years of service and a post-career wait time...so that their last years don't weigh too much on everyone's mind (which, I believe, is why the wait period is there now.)

I realize this is kind of revolutionary, but it's time for a change.



.

[Casey2296]

Is anyone surprised by any of this? This day and age where people are completely cancelling out founders, leaders and people who accomplished great things for our country and people? People who by any standards were flawed and not perfect? People who lived during a time when social culture was different. The game is no different. People and players aren’t less perfect and never will be. The lines will just be drawn differently to allow some other imperfect people to reach their goals. This country used to be about equal opportunity based on your efforts. It’s becoming more about equal outcomes with less effort and a whole bunch of asterisks added at the end. In other words if you have it I should have it. If I can’t have it then either should you no matter how hard you worked for it at your job or on the field. I’m referring more to schilling here. All around not a perfect person but either we’re a lot of greats. His efforts on the field deserve recognition though.

Well said. Let's start delving into the lives of the people who vote on the Hall and see what social impropriety they may have committed in their past and judge them accordingly. For that matter let's judge the judgers on their life history and punish them if we think they have done bad.

[RCMcKenzie]

" Once a government is committed to the principle of silencing the voice of opposition, it has only one way to go,
and that is down the path of increasingly repressive measures until it becomes a source of terror to all its citizens
and creates a country where everyone lives in fear. " - - - - President Harry S. Truman


TED Z
.
+1

[rats60]

Excuse me if I didn't read all the previous posts to see if anyone already said this (I'm old and it's late here) ...

I think almost all of us believe the current system is bad.

______________________________________________

Why not split the vote between all former players and the baseball writers?

?????????????????????????????????????????????????? ????????????????

Or...even...split three ways and include the fans.

?????????????????????????????????????????????????? ???????????????

Of course, the candidates would still have to qualify as they do now...10 years of service and a post-career wait time...so that their last years don't weigh too much on everyone's mind (which, I believe, is why the wait period is there now.)

I realize this is kind of revolutionary, but it's time for a change.



.

No, the only system that is bad is the Veterans Commitees. The BBWAA has done a pretty good job in electing worthy players. It is the Veterans Committees with players voting that has elected guys like Harold Baines, Bud Selig, Rube Marquard, Tommy McCarthy, Rick Ferrell, George Kelly, etc. Why would they want to give them more voting power?

[Shoelessseb]

Never understood the pass Ortiz gets. I guess being lovable forgives a lot of sins.

Exactly. As a Yankees fan it’s pissing me off

[Pat R]

So based on the HOF standards any player on the 2017/18 Astros roster
shouldn't be eligible for the HOF correct?

[packs]

No one has silenced Curt Schilling. He is free to say and do whatever he wants. There is a difference between facing the consequences for what you say and being able to say what you want. Whether you think those consequences should carry over to something like HOF voting is up for debate. But I don't think it can be argued that Schilling can't say and do what he pleases.

[byrone]

I haven't followed Curt Schilling's post-career issues

What specifically is it that would change a voter's mind from "Yes he's a HOF'er" to "No"?

Without venturing too far into political talk.

Although if it's for things he said or wrote, is the First Amendment considered 'political'?

[jayshum]

I haven't followed Curt Schilling's post-career issues

What specifically is it that would change a voter's mind from "Yes he's a HOF'er" to "No"?

Without venturing too far into political talk.

Although if it's for things he said or wrote, is the First Amendment considered 'political'?

There have been quite a few things he has said or posted that have not been well received. I think the one that started to really impact his vote total was a few years ago when he either posted or retweeted something about lynching reporters.

https://www.washingtonpost.com/news/early-lead/wp/2016/11/08/curt-schilling-tweeted-that-journalist-lynchings-are-so-much-awesome/

As others have said, he is free to say or post what he wants, but there can always be consequences to doing that. The first amendment allows him to say what he wants, but it doesn't force reporters to vote for him for the Hall of Fame if they don't want to.

[Ricky]

there have been quite a few things he has said or posted that have not been well received. I think the one that started to really impact his vote total was a few years ago when he either posted or retweeted something about lynching reporters.

https://www.washingtonpost.com/news/early-lead/wp/2016/11/08/curt-schilling-tweeted-that-journalist-lynchings-are-so-much-awesome/

as others have said, he is free to say or post what he wants, but there can always be consequences to doing that. The first amendment allows him to say what he wants, but it doesn't force reporters to vote for him for the hall of fame if they don't want to.

+1.000

[Chuck9788]

Curt Schilling belongs in the Hall of Fame. It's terrible that politics and the "cancel culture" has penetrated into the halls of Cooperstown.

[Bigdaddy]

For sure, but I think at least in theory there is room for an argument that a guy who clearly had a HOF career pre stuff is deserving.

So if Pete Rose didn't bet on games until he passed Ty Cobb, is he deserving?

Personally, I don't buy that argument. But I also can't exclude anyone from the HOF who is on the ballot. That's telling me that MLB and the HOF both believe that they are eligible. As opposed to Pete or Shoeless Joe, who are not on the eligible list. If MLB or the HOF don't want them in the HOF, then suspend them from baseball and take them off the ballot. Stand up and make a decision MLB and HOF. It's the same no-show of leadership that Selig practiced his entire tenure as Commish.

[Ricky]

MLB and the HOF aren’t keeping Schilling out. Writers aren’t voting for him. Which is their right. Nobody has “cancelled” Schilling. He very possibly will get in through one of theVeterans Committees.

And no, doesn’t matter when Rose bet on baseball. Stupid on his part.

[rats60]

So if Pete Rose didn't bet on games until he passed Ty Cobb, is he deserving?

Personally, I don't buy that argument. But I also can't exclude anyone from the HOF who is on the ballot. That's telling me that MLB and the HOF both believe that they are eligible. As opposed to Pete or Shoeless Joe, who are not on the eligible list. If MLB or the HOF don't want them in the HOF, then suspend them from baseball and take them off the ballot. Stand up and make a decision MLB and HOF. It's the same no-show of leadership that Selig practiced his entire tenure as Commish.

Joe Jackson was on the ballot originally and got 2 votes. The writers can exclude anyone they want for any reason.

[earlywynnfan]

Is it possible that over 25% of writers actually think he wasn't HOF material? It's not like he was Greg Maddux. I don't think the Hall is watered down in any way if he isn't in there.

[perezfan]

MLB and the HOF aren’t keeping Schilling out. Writers aren’t voting for him. Which is their right. Nobody has “cancelled” Schilling. He very possibly will get in through one of theVeterans Committees.

And no, doesn’t matter when Rose bet on baseball. Stupid on his part.

Writers are part of the media, and yes it is the media that is canceling and censoring voices that don't match their agenda. Any way you slice it, Schilling is a borderline candidate that could go either way. His clashes with the media were probably just enough to tip the scales against him.

I personally don't care whether he gets in, but do wish it was based solely on his performance as a player.

[earlywynnfan]

Writers are part of the media, and yes it is the media that is canceling and censoring voices that don't match their agenda. Any way you slice it, Schilling is a borderline candidate that could go either way. His clashes with the media were probably just enough to tip the scales against him.

I personally don't care whether he gets in, but do wish it was based solely on his performance as a player.

How do you know they are cancelling him? Did I miss some sort of press conference??

[clydepepper]

No, the only system that is bad is the Veterans Commitees. The BBWAA has done a pretty good job in electing worthy players. It is the Veterans Committees with players voting that has elected guys like Harold Baines, Bud Selig, Rube Marquard, Tommy McCarthy, Rick Ferrell, George Kelly, etc. Why would they want to give them more voting power?



Thanks for reminding me...as I said, it was late and I'm old...should be so near a keyboard that late.

It has to do with exactly who is on the veterans committee...Frankie Frisch got a lot of his teammates in (Haines, Lindstrom...to name a few that did not belong)- I don't like Tony Larussa being on it either.

.

.

[Ricky]

Writers are part of the media, and yes it is the media that is canceling and censoring voices that don't match their agenda. Any way you slice it, Schilling is a borderline candidate that could go either way. His clashes with the media were probably just enough to tip the scales against him.

I personally don't care whether he gets in, but do wish it was based solely on his performance as a player.

How are they cancelling him? He got 70+% of the vote from them. He just didn’t get 75%.

[perezfan]

How are they cancelling him? He got 70+% of the vote from them. He just didn’t get 75%.

There are many examples, and I don't want to cite them all because this is not a place for politics. To pick just one, I suppose it's worth noting that ESPN fired him for voicing opinions that do not align with their woke agenda. But certainly don't want to debate it here.... feel free to PM me if you want.

As I said previously, Schilling is borderline either way, and his preclusion from the HOF won't cause me one minute of lost sleep. I respect all opinions as well as the fact that this forum is reserved for baseball and not politics.

[GaryPassamonte]

Writers are part of the media, and yes it is the media that is canceling and censoring voices that don't match their agenda. Any way you slice it, Schilling is a borderline candidate that could go either way. His clashes with the media were probably just enough to tip the scales against him.

I personally don't care whether he gets in, but do wish it was based solely on his performance as a player.


We have become a society where many/most people are constantly asking for tolerance and inclusion yet they fail to practice what they preach.
I, too, don't really care whether Schilling gets in or not. He's definitely not a slam dunk. However, excluding him because of what he has said, although over the top at times, is wrong. He has committed no crime and has broken no law. This would set a horrible precedent. I'm hard pressed to come up with a candidate that has been rejected from induction for similar reasons.

[Touch'EmAll]

Yes, agree Veterans Committee has let players in that should not be in the HOF. Why later after all the years of regular voting can the VC override the regular NO vote? Not good when VC says YES due to the Buddy system/Politics/other. Baines being in is a complete joke, a big ugly blemish on the HOF.

Then we have guys not in the Hall who actually did something significant, maybe actually started a few All-Star games, won an MVP award or two, were truly famous for their on-the-field accomplishments.

Ticks me off to see such things happen to the game I love. But alas, life is not always fair. Learned that long ago.

______________
Steve Parmentier

[Bigdaddy]

How are they cancelling him? He got 70+% of the vote from them. He just didn’t get 75%.

So I've already heard on ESPN radio this week that an interviewer had talked to a writer who had voted for Schilling for the first time this season. The writer then said that he would not be voting for Schilling next year because of the remarks he made after the raid on the Capitol on Jan 6. Is that not 'cancelling'?

I know, I don't have the names of the folks, but the writer did go unnamed in the report. So take it as you wish.

[Bigdaddy]

The writers can exclude anyone they want for any reason.

And that is why there is a Veteran's Committee, to offset the 'any reason' part of the vote and have folks who played the game weigh in.

[vansaad]

I don't care if it's Frankenstein's monster, a dude that puts up these numbers should not only be in the Hall of Fame, but should be a centerpiece:

WAR Position Players
1987 NL 5.8 (9th)
1988 NL 6.3 (7th)
1989 NL 8.0 (3rd)
1990 NL 9.7 (1st)
1991 NL 8.0 (1st)
1992 NL 9.0 (1st)
1993 NL 9.9 (1st)
1994 NL 6.2 (2nd)
1995 NL 7.5 (1st)
1996 NL 9.7 (1st)
1997 NL 8.2 (4th)
1998 NL 8.1 (1st)
2000 NL 7.7 (3rd)
2001 NL 11.9 (1st)
2002 NL 11.7 (1st)
2003 NL 9.2 (1st)
2004 NL 10.6 (1st)
Career 162.8 (1st)


MVP (rank, share)
1990 NL (1, 99%)
1992 NL (1, 90%)
1993 NL (1, 95%)
2001 NL (1, 98%)
2002 NL (1, 100%)
2003 NL (1, 95%)
2004 NL (1, 91%)
7 MVPs

[BCauley]

Schilling was on the ballot eight other times previously and didn't get in. The first time he was on the ballot he was at 38% or something like that. Why is it suddenly now that people upset about him not getting in the eight other times he was on the ballot?

2013: 38.8%
2014: 29.2%
2015: 39.2%
2016: 52.3%
2017: 45%
2018: 51.2%
2019: 60.9%
2020: 70%
2021: 70%

[Bigdaddy]

Schilling was on the ballot eight other times previously and didn't get in. The first time he was on the ballot he was at 38% or something like that. Why is it suddenly now that people upset about him not getting in the eight other times he was on the ballot?

2013: 38.8%
2014: 29.2%
2015: 39.2%
2016: 52.3%
2017: 45%
2018: 51.2%
2019: 60.9%
2020: 70%
2021: 70%

Why not just give the writers one shot, one time on the ballot? You're either a HOFer or you're not. Nothing changes with a career between 5 and 15 years after a player retires. Not one additional home run, not one more All-Star appearance, not a single strikeout. So why do the judges change their mind?? If you don't get voted in the first year, then on to one of the other committees. And take away the maximum number of players a person can vote for on any given ballot. Vote for all the players who you think are deserving of the HOF every year and be done with the ones who are not.

[rats60]

And that is why there is a Veteran's Committee, to offset the 'any reason' part of the vote and have folks who played the game weigh in.

There have not been many misses by the writers. Eddie Plank, Arky Vaughan and Johnny Mize come to mind. The vast majority of their picks have been borderline candidates and players who don't belong.

[tedzan]

There have not been many misses by the writers. Eddie Plank, Arky Vaughan and Johnny Mize come to mind. The vast majority of their picks have been borderline candidates and players who don't belong.


One of the most egregious omissions by the "writers" was not inducting Johnny Mize into the HOF in the late 1950's (or early 1960's).
Johnny waited 23 years to finally be inducted into the HOF by the Veterans Committee in 1981.


https://photos.imageevent.com/tedzan77/images/websize/autog49b50bphotomize.jpg


I first met Johnny at the Meadowlands, NJ BB card Show in the Fall of 1981. I was set-up at this Show. Johnny was the guest signer.
His table was adjacent to mine. For 2 hours (in between "Big John" autographing), we had some really nice conversations Talkin' BB.
Before he left, he invited me to visit him in Demorest, Georgia, whenever I should be traveling down South.

On our way to Florida in 1987, I side-tracked into Georgia and visited with Johnny at his home. We reminisced for an hour (or more)
about the "good ole days". I recall asking him why he was traded by the Cardinals (1941), and then the Giants (1949) when he was
playing some really great BB. Johnny replied......
" I asked Billy Southworth (Mgr. St. Lo) for a pay increase. Southworth said no. Johnny told him....Pay me, or trade me ! "
This scenario was repeated with Durocher (Giants Mgr). The genius of Casey Stengel acquiring Johnny in 1949 benefited the Yankees
during their 1949 - 1953 "dynasty" years.

OK, having said all that, it's contemptible that the writers did not vote Curt Schilling into the HOF this year. He had 70% of their vote
last year. This year it was 71%. Shows you that a good number of these writers are just a bunch of "political hacks".

How does any one involved in Sports deny a Pitcher who achieved a Post-Season 11 - 2 Won - Lost record from being in the HOF ! ?
Show me another Pitcher in ML BB who comes close to that record.

Furthermore, Schilling has devoted a lot of his time, energy, and $$$$ for the ALS Foundation, and other Charities.


ENOUGH SAID !


TED Z

T206 Reference ( http://www.net54baseball.com/showthread.php?t=237816)
.

[Seven]

One of the most egregious omissions by the "writers" was not inducting Johnny Mize into the HOF in the late 1950's (or early 1960's).
Johnny waited 23 years to finally be inducted into the HOF by the Veterans Committee in 1981.


https://photos.imageevent.com/tedzan77/images/websize/autog49b50bphotomize.jpg


I first met Johnny at the Meadowlands, NJ BB card Show in the Fall of 1981. I was set-up at this Show. Johnny was the guest signer.
His table was adjacent to mine. For 2 hours (in between "Big John" autographing), we had some really nice conversations Talkin' BB.
Before he left, he invited me to visit him in Demorest, Georgia, whenever I should be traveling down South.

On our way to Florida in 1987, I side-tracked into Georgia and visited with Johnny at his home. We reminisced for an hour (or more)
about the "good ole days". I recall asking him why he was traded by the Cardinals (1941), and then the Giants (1949) when he was
playing some really great BB. Johnny replied......
" I asked Billy Southworth (Mgr. St. Lo) for a pay increase. Southworth said no. Johnny told him....Pay me, or trade me ! "
This scenario was repeated with Durocher (Giants Mgr). The genius of Casey Stengel acquiring Johnny in 1949 benefited the Yankees
during their 1949 - 1953 "dynasty" years.

OK, having said all that, it is contemptible that the writer did not vote Curt Schilling into the HOF this year. He had 70% of their vote
last year. This year it was 71%. Shows you that a good number of these writers are just a bunch of "political hacks".

How does any one involved in Sports deny a Pitcher who achieved a Post-Season 11 - 2 Won - Lost record from being in the HOF ! ?
Show me another Pitcher in ML BB who comes close to that record.

Furthermore, Schilling has devoted a lot of his time, energy, and $$$$ for the ALS Foundation, and other Charities.


ENOUGH SAID !


TED Z

T206 Reference ( http://www.net54baseball.com/showthread.php?t=237816)
.

Ted,

Thanks for a great story involving Mize. I've heard nothing but positive things about him. You look at his numbers and something just doesn't add up. How was he not elected sooner?

As to your point about Schilling, it's purely political at this point. Diamondbacks and Red Sox, do not win without him. He's one of four pitchers to strike out 300 batters in 3 seasons. He had 3, 20 Wins seasons as well. How he isn't in already, on numbers alone is shocking.

[rats60]

One of the most egregious omissions by the "writers" was not inducting Johnny Mize into the HOF in the late 1950's (or early 1960's).
Johnny waited 23 years to finally be inducted into the HOF by the Veterans Committee in 1981.


https://photos.imageevent.com/tedzan77/images/websize/autog49b50bphotomize.jpg


I first met Johnny at the Meadowlands, NJ BB card Show in the Fall of 1981. I was set-up at this Show. Johnny was the guest signer.
His table was adjacent to mine. For 2 hours (in between "Big John" autographing), we had some really nice conversations Talkin' BB.
Before he left, he invited me to visit him in Demorest, Georgia, whenever I should be traveling down South.

On our way to Florida in 1987, I side-tracked into Georgia and visited with Johnny at his home. We reminisced for an hour (or more)
about the "good ole days". I recall asking him why he was traded by the Cardinals (1941), and then the Giants (1949) when he was
playing some really great BB. Johnny replied......
" I asked Billy Southworth (Mgr. St. Lo) for a pay increase. Southworth said no. Johnny told him....Pay me, or trade me ! "
This scenario was repeated with Durocher (Giants Mgr). The genius of Casey Stengel acquiring Johnny in 1949 benefited the Yankees
during their 1949 - 1953 "dynasty" years.

OK, having said all that, it is contemptible that the writer did not vote Curt Schilling into the HOF this year. He had 70% of their vote
last year. This year it was 71%. Shows you that a good number of these writers are just a bunch of "political hacks".

How does any one involved in Sports deny a Pitcher who achieved a Post-Season 11 - 2 Won - Lost record from being in the HOF ! ?
Show me another Pitcher in ML BB who comes close to that record.

Furthermore, Schilling has devoted a lot of his time, energy, and $$$$ for the ALS Foundation, and other Charities.


ENOUGH SAID !


TED Z

T206 Reference ( http://www.net54baseball.com/showthread.php?t=237816)
.

He is one of the most underrated players of all time.
.312/.397/.562 OPS+ 158. 14th all-time in SLG, 16th in OPS, 17th in OPS+. Mize gets over looked because he lost 3 full seasons of his prime to the war and didn't hit magic milestones. Today he would be a 1st ballot Hall of Famer. My favorite stat is in 1947 he hit 51 HRs and struck out 42 times. The only time in history that a player hit 50 HRs with less than 50 SO. He led the NL in HRs 4 times and each season had less than 50 SO (in fact only one time did he SO 50+ times in a season with 57 in 1937).

[Seven]

He is one of the most underrated players of all time.
.312/.397/.562 OPS+ 158. 14th all-time in SLG, 16th in OPS, 17th in OPS+. Mize gets over looked because he lost 3 full seasons of his prime to the war and didn't hit magic milestones. Today he would be a 1st ballot Hall of Famer. My favorite stat is in 1947 he hit 51 HRs and struck out 42 times. The only time in history that a player hit 50 HRs with less than 50 SO. He led the NL in HRs 4 times and each season had less than 50 SO (in fact only one time did he SO 50+ times in a season with 57 in 1937).

the more you look at his numbers, the more impressed you get, especially considering the time he lost to the War. Would've easily had over 400 Home Runs, and close to, if not over, 2500 hits.

[JollyElm]

How about a cool 'Big Cat' card...

438118

[Brian Van Horn]

Just curious. Not sure if it is this year or next year, but when is the vote on Dahlen and other players of his era?

[Tabe]

Why not just give the writers one shot, one time on the ballot?
Congrats! You just kicked Joe Dimaggio out of the Hall. Took Joe D *three* times to get in.

[Tabe]

Gonna respond to lots points all at once here:

1) Why do people bring up that steroids weren't banned when discussing them? Does it matter? They were illegal, as in against the law. MLB doesn't have a rule against armed bank robbery either but do we really think somebody wouldn't be punished for committing one?

2) Lots of people talking about stuff Curt Schilling has said - FYI, advocating for the murder of journalists isn't an "opinion" - but no one talking about what he did. Let's not forget he ripped off the state of Rhode Island to the tune of $75 million.

3) Somebody asked for another example of somebody who had 100+ RBI in 7 straight seasons and isn't in the Hall, like Gil Hodge. Here ya go: Albert Belle, who did it in 9 straight seasons. Belle belongs in the Hall, btw, and should be an absolute no-brainer.

Personally, I don't care if players did PEDs. I've gone back and forth on that over the years and have decided I no longer care. There are guys in the Hall that did them - Piazza, Bagwell, Ivan Rodriguez, to name three - and they were ALL OVER THE game in the 90s and 2000s. Hitters and pitchers using them. It's impossible to separate that guys that did them from the guys that didn't. And, besides players, there's already two guys in the Hall who benefited from them (Bud Selig and Tony LaRussa, whose criminal history seemed to bother no one). So, no, I wouldn't keep somebody out based on their PED usage.

I will say, though, the idea of David Ortiz getting in before Barry Bonds or Roger Clemens makes my head spin. He couldn't carry the jock of Bonds or Clemens and definitely couldn't without the roids.

[Seven]

Gonna respond to lots points all at once here:

1) Why do people bring up that steroids weren't banned when discussing them? Does it matter? They were illegal, as in against the law. MLB doesn't have a rule against armed bank robbery either but do we really think somebody wouldn't be punished for committing one?

2) Lots of people talking about stuff Curt Schilling as said - FYI, advocating for the murder of journalists isn't an "opinion" - but no one talking about what he did. Let's not forget he ripped off the state of Rhode Island to the tune of $75 million.

3) Somebody asked for another example of somebody who had 100+ RBI in 7 straight seasons and isn't in the Hall, like Gil Hodge. Here ya go: Albert Belle, who did it in 9 straight seasons. Belle belongs in the Hall, btw, and should be an absolute no-brainer.

Personally, I don't care if players did PEDs. I've gone back and forth on that over the years and have decided I no longer care. There are guys in the Hall that did them - Piazza, Bagwell, Ivan Rodriguez, to name three - and they were ALL OVER THE game in the 90s and 2000s. Hitters and pitchers using them. It's impossible to separate that guys that did them from the guys that didn't. And, besides players, there's already two guys in the Hall who benefited from them (Bud Selig and Tony LaRussa, whose criminal history seemed to bother no one). So, no, I wouldn't keep somebody out based on their PED usage.

I will say, though, the idea of David Ortiz getting in before Barry Bonds or Roger Clemens makes my head spin. He couldn't carry the jock of Bonds or Clemens and definitely couldn't without the roids.


Concerning point one I've said multiple times that "it wasn't illegal then" as my argument, but really thinking about it, I don't think it's an issue of legality. Granted I cannot speak for others, I think that it's not so much that steroids were against the rules, or their legality, it's the fact that, the owners and the commissioner made out like bandits from guys like Bonds, Clemens, McGwire, etc but when it comes time to give the players their due for helping propel the sport post strike or keep baseball's popularity heading into the 2000's they shun them. Another thing I take issue with is the fact that the Writers that were voting for guys like Clemens, Bonds and Rodriguez to win the MVP are mostly the same writers, that are now in charge of putting them in keeping them out of the hall of fame.

Concerning two, well that's a very fair assessment, I completely forgot about his failed video game company.

Concerning Three and the ortiz issue, I agree on both fronts. Belle Belongs in the Hall of Fame, and if Ortiz gets in before Bonds and Clemens my head will spin

[Ricky]

Ortiz must still be on roids because he looks exactly the same now as he did when he played, unlike say, mark McGuire...

He had one test that came back positive and we don’t have any idea for what. He was tested many, many times over many years and never had another positive test yet kept putting up great numbers. He was never ripped like Bonds, just kind of roly-poly. I’m not convinced Ortiz was dirty.

[rats60]

Ortiz must still be on roids because he looks exactly the same now as he did when he played, unlike say, mark McGuire...

He had one test that came back positive and we don’t have any idea for what. He was tested many, many times over many years and never had another positive test yet kept putting up great numbers. He was never ripped like Bonds, just kind of roly-poly. I’m not convinced Ortiz was dirty.

Alex Rodriguez never tested positive for steroids That doesn't mean he wasn't using them.

[todeen]

One of the most egregious omissions by the "writers" was not inducting Johnny Mize into the HOF in the late 1950's (or early 1960's).

Johnny waited 23 years to finally be inducted into the HOF by the Veterans Committee in 1981.





https://photos.imageevent.com/tedzan77/images/websize/autog49b50bphotomize.jpg





I first met Johnny at the Meadowlands, NJ BB card Show in the Fall of 1981. I was set-up at this Show. Johnny was the guest signer.

His table was adjacent to mine. For 2 hours (in between "Big John" autographing), we had some really nice conversations Talkin' BB.

Before he left, he invited me to visit him in Demorest, Georgia, whenever I should be traveling down South.



On our way to Florida in 1987, I side-tracked into Georgia and visited with Johnny at his home. We reminisced for an hour (or more)

about the "good ole days". I recall asking him why he was traded by the Cardinals (1941), and then the Giants (1949) when he was

playing some really great BB. Johnny replied......

" I asked Billy Southworth (Mgr. St. Lo) for a pay increase. Southworth said no. Johnny told him....Pay me, or trade me ! "

This scenario was repeated with Durocher (Giants Mgr). The genius of Casey Stengel acquiring Johnny in 1949 benefited the Yankees

during their 1949 - 1953 "dynasty" years.



OK, having said all that, it's contemptible that the writers did not vote Curt Schilling into the HOF this year. He had 70% of their vote

last year. This year it was 71%. Shows you that a good number of these writers are just a bunch of "political hacks".



How does any one involved in Sports deny a Pitcher who achieved a Post-Season 11 - 2 Won - Lost record from being in the HOF ! ?

Show me another Pitcher in ML BB who comes close to that record.



Furthermore, Schilling has devoted a lot of his time, energy, and $$$$ for the ALS Foundation, and other Charities.





ENOUGH SAID !





TED Z



T206 Reference ( http://www.net54baseball.com/showthread.php?t=237816)

.Throw Ernie Lombardi into the egregious category. Kept out because of a personal issue with Warren Giles (if you believe the rumors).

Sent from my SAMSUNG-SM-G930A using Tapatalk

[cammb]

Gonna respond to lots points all at once here:

1) Why do people bring up that steroids weren't banned when discussing them? Does it matter? They were illegal, as in against the law. MLB doesn't have a rule against armed bank robbery either but do we really think somebody wouldn't be punished for committing one?

2) Lots of people talking about stuff Curt Schilling has said - FYI, advocating for the murder of journalists isn't an "opinion" - but no one talking about what he did. Let's not forget he ripped off the state of Rhode Island to the tune of $75 million.

3) Somebody asked for another example of somebody who had 100+ RBI in 7 straight seasons and isn't in the Hall, like Gil Hodge. Here ya go: Albert Belle, who did it in 9 straight seasons. Belle belongs in the Hall, btw, and should be an absolute no-brainer.

Personally, I don't care if players did PEDs. I've gone back and forth on that over the years and have decided I no longer care. There are guys in the Hall that did them - Piazza, Bagwell, Ivan Rodriguez, to name three - and they were ALL OVER THE game in the 90s and 2000s. Hitters and pitchers using them. It's impossible to separate that guys that did them from the guys that didn't. And, besides players, there's already two guys in the Hall who benefited from them (Bud Selig and Tony LaRussa, whose criminal history seemed to bother no one). So, no, I wouldn't keep somebody out based on their PED usage.

I will say, though, the idea of David Ortiz getting in before Barry Bonds or Roger Clemens makes my head spin. He couldn't carry the jock of Bonds or Clemens and definitely couldn't without the roids.


"he" didn't rip off the state of Rhode Island. That's your opinion. His company accepted a bond sale from thre state t move his company to Rhode Island. They went bankrupt and the state charged his company with fraud for the fact they weren't forthcoming in their projected sales etc. They settled for 2.5 million. Schilling maintains his innocense. He also lost 50 million of his own money.

[GaryPassamonte]

Just curious. Not sure if it is this year or next year, but when is the vote on Dahlen and other players of his era?

This election was supposed to take place in 2020, but was postponed until 2021 due to Covid.

[triwak]

Just curious. Not sure if it is this year or next year, but when is the vote on Dahlen and other players of his era?

Was supposed to have been this past December during the Winter Meetings, but everything was cancelled due to Covid. That Era's vote will now take place in December 2021.

[Ricky]

Alex Rodriguez never tested positive for steroids That doesn't mean he wasn't using them.

Wasn’t ARod suspended?

[jayshum]

Wasn’t ARod suspended?

Yes, but he never did test positive as far as I can remember. However, there was evidence from some place in Florida and he eventually admitted to using steroids even without a positive test.

[Tabe]

"he" didn't rip off the state of Rhode Island. That's your opinion. His company accepted a bond sale from thre state t move his company to Rhode Island. They went bankrupt and the state charged his company with fraud for the fact they weren't forthcoming in their projected sales etc. They settled for 2.5 million. Schilling maintains his innocense. He also lost 50 million of his own money.

The state actually won $61m from Schilling and his company. Schilling and his company lied to the state when getting the $75m, not telling Rhode Island that the money wasn't enough to fund development of the game they were promising. They also mismanaged the money they did receive.

So, yeah, he - and his company - ripped off the state.

[Ricky]

The state actually won $61m from Schilling and his company. Schilling and his company lied to the state when getting the $75m, not telling Rhode Island that the money wasn't enough to fund development of the game they were promising. They also mismanaged the money they did receive.

So, yeah, he - and his company - ripped off the state.

As a Rhode Island resident, this is true. Not many RIers are shedding tears for poor Curt in regard to him not getting into the HOF.