Proper action for a stolen package from a Buy/Sell/Trade transaction

[facingthelake1188]

I am posting this at the suggestion of a fellow member with whom I have had the pleasure of several mutually beneficial trades/sales.
I would appreciate the input of the many veteran members on this forum as to the proper action that should be taken in this regrettably unfortunate situation. On Nov. 19, I purchased a 1916 Altoona Tribune Ray Caldwell for $225 + shipping from a long standing member with over 4000+ posts. Being a new member, I was understandable hesitant to enter into transactions paid via PayPal F/F with little recourse if things went bad but I saw that so many of you post all your successful transactions that I felt comfortable dealing within such a large community of fellow collectors.
Postal tracking indicated that my package status was “delivery delayed” while showing “delivered to” my local post office “on Nov. 23. Knowing that mail this time of year can be slow, I waited until after Thanksgiving before going to the post office to check on the delay. I spoke with the branch manager, a lovely woman who I have interacted with for many years. After going to her office, she came back and showed me an email she had already sent out to the postal inspector listing about ten tracked items within the same “satchel” (her word), including mine, that were supposed to have been delivered to the branch on Nov. 23, but were not on the truck. [She explained that even though tracking shows the package as delivered to the branch, in actuality that scan is done at the regional hub when the satchel is set for inclusion of the next truck delivery to the local branches in my area. They do not actually scan the packages when they arrive at the local post office. Strange but true] She apologized profusely knowing that these packages were clearly stolen by a crooked postal employee. A bunch of packages do not just go missing without help.
So of course I contact the member and relayed news of this mess and asked that he file a claim with his branch for the insured value (I do not know if he ever insured the package but most now come with a minimum $50 of insurance standard.) NO RESPONSE. I waited another week hoping the postal inspector might get lucky and again emailed the member requesting a refund. NO RESPONSE. Not wanting to out this person on the forum immediately because I truly believe the card was shipped as promised, and me being a fairly new member, I asked a veteran member with whom I have had several successful transactions, both trades and sales (cards and cash exchanged both ways) for his opinion on the appropriate resolution in such a situation. He responded...
“That's a real bummer about your card being stolen. That really sucks. Did the seller confirm it had been insured?*
Ultimately it's the seller's responsibility to get the card delivered to you, and if it fails to get there he should issue you a refund. My guess would be he's holding out hope that the package is found or delayed considering the issues with the post office of late?... but in the end it's on him to get you the card and if it doesn't get there he needs to issue you a refund. Is this a board member regular?”
You will not be roasted for bringing this up, but you can consider posting about it and not outing the board member but asking opinions on what to do. You will get a lot of people saying you deserve a refund... Name the card, what you paid and detail it all. But don't name the seller... yet.”

Sorry for the long story, but I wanted to tell it as accurately and completely as possible. Please give me your opinions, shouldn’t it be the sellers responsibility? Would it be wrong to warn others about the actions of this member?

[Shoeless Moe]

Can you post the tracking number, or screenshots of what the tracking shows?

[Fred]

You know what's gonna suck - after a bunch of opinions are rendered and sides are taken, the package will show up.

I really hope it shows up soon.

All of my transactions through the BST have all been completed without issue. I count myself fortunate. Lots of wonderful people on this board.

[Leon]

If nothing was mentioned, imo, it is the seller's responsibility to get the card/item to the buyer. It is the buyer's responsibility to pay for it. If the card doesn't get there it is on the seller for a refund. That is if nothing is agreed to beforehand concerning shipping.

I believe all 1st class now comes with tracking and $50 insurance. Again, on the seller to go get it if he wants it.

Here is a 1949 Vis Ed card of Doby....because threads need cards.

https://luckeycards.com/phuncviseddoby1949.jpg

[x2drich2000]

I think your actions so far have been appropriate and reasonable. I'm also in the camp that it is the seller's responsibility to get the card delivered, unless otherwise stipulated. Since you indicate you have been pretty friendly with your local PO, have you tried following up with her or the postmaster/postal inspector to see if they have anymore info? Has the board member been active lately? If so, I would send him another message with a set deadline to make things right, or at least give you a good update/plan on how to address, before outing him. If the deadline passes without any communication, I would say to out him. Just because you are new to the board is not a reason for them to ignore communicating with you about the situation and it is not a reason you should be concerned about outing him. We were all new at some point. That said, the USPS right now is really messed up so I could see him wanting to hold off refunding for now, but he should still at least be communicating.

[bigfish]

Is the desired outcome of you’re post to get the seller to respond on the main forum?

Did you purchase insurance or ask about paying for insurance?

I have done over 100 buys from this seller. He’s not the type to not send the card.

I think the card could still show up. The postal service is a mess.

No great solution. I hope it all works out.

Merry Christmas

[jayshum]

If nothing was mentioned, imo, it is the seller's responsibility to get the card/item to the buyer. It is the buyer's responsibility to pay for it. If the card doesn't get there it is on the seller for a refund. That is if nothing is agreed to beforehand concerning shipping.

I believe all 1st class now comes with tracking and $50 insurance. Again, on the seller to go get it if he wants it.

Here is a 1949 Vis Ed card of Doby....because threads need cards.

https://luckeycards.com/phuncviseddoby1949.jpg

Based on recent packages I have mailed for cards I have sold, I think only priority mail comes with the $50 insurance. First class can include tracking but any insurance is extra. Given how things have been with USPS lately, I have been buying insurance on everything I have shipped because I would assume the buyer would expect a refund if the cards never showed up. Just like any other purchase from any other seller (business, eBay, private, etc), if the item is never received, the buyer would expect their money back.

[notfast]

Based on recent packages I have mailed for cards I have sold, I think only priority mail comes with the $50 insurance. First class can include tracking but any insurance is extra.

This is correct.

Also, it’s always on the seller to make sure the item is delivered. Sucks that it was “stolen” if that was what actually happened but it’s still the sellers responsibility.

Not really much to discuss here. Cut and dry.

[cardsagain74]

Name the card, what you paid and detail it all. But don't name the seller... yet.”

This part of the advice wasn't the best. Combine that info w/ the date you mentioned, and it takes just a few seconds to figure out the seller

[Gorditadogg]

It is the seller's responsibility to deliver the package, it is up to the seller whether to buy insurance.

Sent from my SM-G955U using Tapatalk

[Casey2296]

I had that happen recently with an eBay seller, he mailed the package and it got lost in usps hell. I emailed him after about 3 weeks, he was frustrated and concerned, went to his post office, I went to mine both of us trying to track the package.

Our email exchange was fun, we talked about him being at Woodstock in 69 and my girlfriends family connection to that event, my love of the Giants, and his life as a retired guy selling cards. I made a new friend, as they say.

I could tell he was distraught over the missing item, I could also tell that it would have been hard for him to issue an entire refund, this was his biggest card that I had bought, a 4-in-1 at $340 I think. I told him we'll just wait it out, use our power of positive energy to will that card showing up at my office and not to worry about. He asked what we should do in the event it never shows up. I suggested he could refund me what he would have made on the card as a solution so we both shouldered a little of the pain instead of only one of us. And then I forgot about it.

Two weeks later the card showed up.

I don't have a suggestion on what you guys should do but I wish you both well in coming up with a fair solution.

[Jim65]

It sounds like you've given the seller ample time to respond to your PMs. If he has been active since you sent the PMs, theres really no excuse for not responding. If it were me, I'd file for PayPal refund. If you paid by Goods and Services, you'll get a refund. If paid by Friends and Family, you are shit out of luck and just learned a valuable lesson.

[Fred]

Jim, most of the people selling on the BST request F/F paypal because there are no fees associated with the transaction. Just curious, what does paypal charge for the sales/service selection? What does it cover? Who pays for the fee associated with sales/service transaction?

[Peter_Spaeth]

Not his fault of course, but it's on the seller. So it goes.

[Jim65]

Jim, most of the people selling on the BST request F/F paypal because there are no fees associated with the transaction. Just curious, what does paypal charge for the sales/service selection? What does it cover? Who pays for the fee associated with sales/service transaction?

The fees are roughly 3%. I never ever pay by Friends and Family, I always pay the extra fees myself and pay by Goods and Services, no matter who the seller is. Its about protecting yourself. When you pay by Friends and Family, you are giving up any Buyer Protections that PayPal offers.

[bounce]

OP - can you post a picture of what the tracking says?

I've had a couple items go "missing" for about 3 weeks in the past month plus, if you get them to run a "trace" on the package at both your post office and at it's last known scan location, it wouldn't surprise me at all if it all of a sudden shakes loose in the system and turns up.

[LincolnVT]

Two words...registered / insured.

[Jim65]

Not his fault of course, but it's on the seller. So it goes.

Its not his fault but ignoring the buyer while he has the buyers money is his fault.

[Wimberleycardcollector]

Two words...registered / insured.

Agreed. I never ship packages without insurance especially now with service being so inconsistent. Someone was correct above in that only priority mail comes with 50.00 insurance included. Anything else is on the seller and buyer to figure out. IMO if the seller offered insurance and it is refused then it's not on the seller. Doesn't sound like the case here though.

[Tyruscobb]

This board’s proper etiquette is to refund the buyer. However, proper etiquette and whether the seller must legally refund the buyer are potentially two different things. Although people often forget, they are entering into binding and enforceable contracts when they b/s/t. Words and phrases have meaning and legal significance. Did the contract’s terms state shipped or delivered?

In some states, if the contract just indicates shipped, the risk transfers from the seller to the buyer as soon as the third-party carrier takes possession. Thus, the buyer bears the loss if the third-party carrier losses/damages the item during shipping.

This is why it’s always good practice to specify “delivered.” This denotes that the seller bears the risk until the item is delivered to the buyer. Thus, the seller is responsible for a lost/damaged item.

So, this issue is not legally cut and dry. We need more information, such as the actual contract’s language, the terms and conditions, the parties’ jurisdiction(s), etc. However, the etiquette is cut and dry.

[Directly]

FYI--Good luck on filing a USPS insurance claim. I filed a claim for $650.00 10/26/20 for a lost card, denied, Filed first appeal, under review--sadly a suggestion to send overnight or registered mail is good advise right now.

[Eric72]

As a seller, I've found it helpful to use the USPS website when packages go missing. Speaking with a postal employee is good. If you've developed a rapport with the Postmaster, that's a great person to ask for help. However, also consider this site:

https://www.usps.com/help/missing-mail.htm

A couple items I've mailed this year got "stuck" at a USPS facility for more than a week. When I used the website, the package got "knocked loose" within a day or two and arrived safely at its destination shortly thereafter.

Something to keep in mind - in my case, it's possible that having a USPS account online helped.

Posting this as a "general help" topic for sellers here. With regard to the OP, the missing satchel makes this case more complex than what I've dealt with.

[Jim65]

As a seller, I've found it helpful to use the USPS website when packages go missing. Speaking with a postal employee is good. If you've developed a rapport with the Postmaster, that's a great person to ask for help. However, also consider this site:

https://www.usps.com/help/missing-mail.htm

A couple items I've mailed this year got "stuck" at a USPS facility for more than a week. When I used the website, the package got "knocked loose" within a day or two and arrived safely at its destination shortly thereafter.

Something to keep in mind - in my case, it's possible that having a USPS account online helped.

Posting this as a "general help" topic for sellers here. With regard to the OP, the missing satchel makes this case more complex than what I've dealt with.

The mail is so ridiculously slow right now but the OP said his branch manager thinks the package was stolen and a month later, its still lost.

The most troubling thing is this seller is choosing to ignore a buyer who has a rightful problem, especially when the seller has a history of this. Sellers should not have the right to ignore buyers when they have the buyers money in their pocket.

This site is great but really needs some kind of feedback system to protect members. If this buyer had read about the sellers previous problem, he could have chosen to pay for PayPal buyer protection.

[sportscardpete]

The seller has an obligation to get the card to the buyer. However, there’s no rule on the BST forum that states the item must be insured. I don’t think the seller owes you the money, but the right thing to do would be For him/her to refund you.

One of the reasons people use FF here is because it is a trusting group.

[facingthelake1188]

Let me first say thank you all very much for taking the time to read my long post and give me your honest feedback. I plan to respond to each of your questions/comments as time allows but let me quickly post a quick update. One veteran member was kind enough to send me this link from this past year detailing the same situation involving the same member. Since the member outs himself, I will just leave it up to whoever is interested to read and discover who this seller was. And maybe he will finally decide to reply to me...

https://www.net54baseball.com/showthread.php?t=278177&highlight=lost+package

And Merry Christmas to you all. I am extremely grateful to have found this site with so many like minded collectors. Being a pre-war Yankees collector, I am so amazed by all the rare cards that are posted here. I look forward to posting some of my own personal favorites from my collection in the future.

[Leon]

The seller has an obligation to get the card to the buyer. However, there’s no rule on the BST forum that states the item must be insured. I don’t think the seller owes you the money, but the right thing to do would be For him/her to refund you.

One of the reasons people use FF here is because it is a trusting group.

If the buyer paid, no shipping was mentioned and card not received, then the seller owes the buyer a refund. On at least this forum it is not debatable.

[Tyruscobb]

The seller has an obligation to get the card to the buyer.

Maybe. Did the contract’s terms and conditions state shipped or delivered? These are two different things. If just shipped, the seller satisfied his “obligation” once he paid for shipping and the third-party shipper took possession.

If the contract’s terms stated delivered, the seller bears the risk of loss until the item is delivered. Thus, his obligation doesn’t end until the third-party carrier delivers the item.

The same rules that auction websites and credit card companies may have does not always apply across the board to transactions between two individuals with a non-secured or guaranteed payment method. People, however, forget this aspect.

The etiquette is to refund and move on.

[Leon]

Maybe. Did the contract’s terms and conditions state shipped or delivered? These are two different things. If just shipped, the seller satisfied his “obligation” once he paid for shipping and the third-party shipper took possession.

If the contract’s terms stated delivered, the seller bears the risk of loss until the item is delivered. Thus, his obligation doesn’t end until the third-party carrier delivers the item.

The same rules that auction websites and credit card companies may have does not always apply across the board to transactions between two individuals with a non-secured or guaranteed payment method. People, however, forget this aspect.

The etiquette is to refund and move on.

I politely disagree on shipped vs delivered. To me they mean the same thing. I don't play the semantics games.

.

[Tyruscobb]

I politely disagree on shipped vs delivered. To me they mean the same thing. I don't play the semantics games.

I’m just trying to help educate and explain how some states’ laws address this exact issue. It’s not semantics. There is a legal difference between a shipping contract and a delivery one.

Your the site’s ultimate arbiter. So, if you say the site’s rule is for the seller to reimburse the buyer then that is the rule. I’ve always personally followed this rule selling on here anyways (although thankfully all my items arrived), because it’s not worth the hassle and reputation damage fighting a buyer.

[bobbyw8469]

I’m just trying to help educate and explain how some states’ laws address this exact issue. It’s not semantics. There is a legal difference between a shipping contract and a delivery one.

Your the site’s ultimate arbiter. So, if you say the site’s rule is for the seller to reimburse the buyer then that is the rule. I’ve always personally followed this rule selling on here anyways (although thankfully all my items arrived), because it’s not worth the hassle and reputation damage fighting a buyer.

What happens when the item turns up after a refund has been issued?? Is there a rule for that scenario as well?

[Jcfowler6]

There is no easy way with things like this. And I believe both parties have done the right things.

The risk could have been remedied by paying the 3%. I believe if the buyer wanted insurance it should have been paid for it. The seller mailed it then his/her job is done. I’ve always operated under that assumption when buying PayPal f/f. If I wanted insurance I’d add the fee and feel good knowing it’s covered.

I sure hope the card is found for both parties sake.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

[bobbyw8469]

I am curious to know the tracking number......can the OP share that?

[bnorth]

I am curious to know the tracking number......can the OP share that?

Why when you are not involved in any way would you want the tracking#? I have never understood why someone would ask this.

[Shoeless Moe]

Why when you are not involved in any way would you want the tracking#? I have never understood why someone would ask this.

He's asking ours opinions/advice, we should be able to see all the evidence to be able to make a fully informed opinion.

He should give the tracking info, or screenshots showing the dates and info.

Granted more than likely this is an open and shut case, and the seller will need to refund, but still never hurts to see all the info/facts and hear from both sides.

[RL]

it is the sellers responsibility to get the package shipped/delivered,
no delivery the seller needs to refund.

insurance is to protect the seller, not the buyer.

if you do get refunded and the card shows up, repay for the card.

[Peter_Spaeth]

What happens when the item turns up after a refund has been issued?? Is there a rule for that scenario as well?

Obviously the buyer then must pay.

That actually happened to me after I had received a refund through ebay. The card showed up after three months lol.

[Vegas Cards]

I sold a nice Nolan Ryan card on eBay for $15 to someone and apparently forgot to seal the media envelope when I shipped it. The buyer got the empty package with the removable tape still on and no card :confused:.

I refunded him and I think we were mainly both upset that a really cool card had been lost.

Different situation because it was clearly my fault and not a huge deal because the amount was small.

But I'm just selling stuff from my PC, not trying to make money when I sell. I imagine that for those on the forum that are trying to make extra money at this the loss of funds, time, energy etc. would be a drag.

Best of luck to you both in getting this resolved.

[bobbyw8469]

Why when you are not involved in any way would you want the tracking#? I have never understood why someone would ask this.


Because I have shipped so many packages, I would consider myself an "expert" on whether the package was truly indeed "lost" or if he had a chance still to show up. Like someone else said, if he is solitciting advice, then he shouldn't have a probably sharing a tracking number....not like I can do anything bad with it....geez.......

[Brian Van Horn]

Only the tracking number for my sister's Christmas present has been deleted from this response I sent earlier today to Larry (12/.26/2020):

Larry,

I responded to your December 12 e-mail. I just did a search and found your December 21 e-mail which I wlll read shortly. Why shortly? I had brain surgery at UPMC Presbyterian on Wednesday December 2 for removal of 3 cm of the left side of my brain by Dr. Gregoris Zenonos. On Monday of this week, I went to UPMC Shadyside for fitting of a mask for radiation of the rest of the growth. I will also have chemotherapy over a same six week timeframe starting in January 2021. According to Dr. Zenonos, the surgery removed 91-95% on Wednesday December 2. The diagnosis is Anapolastic Astro Cytoma. Originally diagnosed this past Monday December 21 at a grade 3. The following day, Dr. Megan Mantica on a video call with my brother and myself lowered the diagnosis to grade 2. That was Tuesday December 22.

Now, given the problems with the post offices across the country, the plan was and is on my end to act on the matter today. Why? Covid and its resulting lack of USPS employees. This to give you another example. I ordered a Christmas present for my sister-in-law Tammy on November 30 (Order number -------) through Luca+Danni.

Also, please note I have mentioned my diagnosis to Al Crisafulli on Wednesday December 23 as well as to Helen Brose of Heritage Auctions on December 23.

Thank you,

Brian Van Horn

[Casey2296]

Wishing you a speedy recovery Brian. Op, what kind of card was it. If I have it I’ll send you mine. Let’s keep things in perspective.

[facingthelake1188]

Brian,
I can appreciate you not being able to address my emails and concerns due to your health issues if it were not for the fact that a search of your posting activity on the forum indicates that you were actively posting on the following dates:
Nov. 26, 27, 29, Dec. 6, 12, 13, 14, 15, 16 (2x), 21 (4x). It is now Dec. 26 and it is only today, after bringing this issue to the attention of fellow members, that you have first responded to my inquiry and began to address my concerns.
I hope you have had a chance to read the many responses I have received to my thread. Overwhelmingly, members who offered their opinion confirmed that proper etiquette is that the seller is responsible for issuing a refund for a lost/stolen package. I continue hoping you will abide by forum etiquette and refund my purchase price. Thank you and I truly do wish you well and good health.
Best wishes for a happy and healthy New Year!
Larry

Only the tracking number for my sister's Christmas present has been deleted from this response I sent earlier today to Larry (12/.26/2020):

Larry,

I responded to your December 12 e-mail. I just did a search and found your December 21 e-mail which I wlll read shortly. Why shortly? I had brain surgery at UPMC Presbyterian on Wednesday December 2 for removal of 3 cm of the left side of my brain by Dr. Gregoris Zenonos. On Monday of this week, I went to UPMC Shadyside for fitting of a mask for radiation of the rest of the growth. I will also have chemotherapy over a same six week timeframe starting in January 2021. According to Dr. Zenonos, the surgery removed 91-95% on Wednesday December 2. The diagnosis is Anapolastic Astro Cytoma. Originally diagnosed this past Monday December 21 at a grade 3. The following day, Dr. Megan Mantica on a video call with my brother and myself lowered the diagnosis to grade 2. That was Tuesday December 22.

Now, given the problems with the post offices across the country, the plan was and is on my end to act on the matter today. Why? Covid and its resulting lack of USPS employees. This to give you another example. I ordered a Christmas present for my sister-in-law Tammy on November 30 (Order number -------) through Luca+Danni.

Also, please note I have mentioned my diagnosis to Al Crisafulli on Wednesday December 23 as well as to Helen Brose of Heritage Auctions on December 23.

Thank you,

Brian Van Horn

[Shoeless Moe]

Since you have not showed the tracking, for whatever reason, just curious do you have a PO Box, and does it show Delivered?

[facingthelake1188]

Thank you all for your opinions and comments. Here is the tracking number for anyone interested. I have no issue sharing it. I was just having a problem posting a photo from my iPad. It seems I can only do that from my Mac.

9500115895080326668817

I do wish to reiterate one point I mention in my original post...

Postal tracking indicated that my package status was “delivery delayed” while showing “delivered to” my local post office “on Nov. 23. Knowing that mail this time of year can be slow, I waited until after Thanksgiving before going to the post office to check on the delay. I spoke with the branch manager, a lovely woman who I have interacted with for many years. After going to her office, she came back and showed me an email she had already sent out to the postal inspector listing about ten tracked items within the same “satchel” (her word), including mine, that were supposed to have been delivered to the branch on Nov. 23, but were not on the truck. [She explained that even though tracking shows the package as delivered to the branch, in actuality that scan is done at the regional hub when the satchel is set for inclusion of the next truck delivery to the local branches in my area. They do not actually scan the packages when they arrive at the local post office. Strange but true] She apologized profusely knowing that these packages were clearly stolen by a crooked postal employee. A bunch of packages do not just go missing without help.

[facingthelake1188]

Obviously, (or maybe not) I would reissue payment. As I told the seller in a recent pm:

“If it arrives, even if several months from now, I would certainly contact you and resubmit payment. At my age, almost 60, retired and collecting a pension, money is not an issue. Honesty and integrity mean too much to me to ever compromise myself over cash. I hope to continue being a productive member of the collecting community for years to come. I’ve had the pleasure of meeting and completing successful transactions with a bunch of members in my short time here. Please read the overwhelming opinions of members regarding the proper etiquette re: seller responsibilities. Then ask yourself, wouldn’t you expect the same if the situation were reversed? Thanks for listening and happy holidays!”


Obviously the buyer then must pay.

That actually happened to me after I had received a refund through ebay. The card showed up after three months lol.

[Shoeless Moe]

No brainer at this point.

Seller must issue Refund ASAP. Today.

Seller need to go to the PO and make their claim.

Case closed.

[MGHPro]

I completely disagree with the seller must issue a refund today . Usps is beyond messed up . I had 2 packages from a seller in Kentucky shipped to me on nov 28. No scans at all , then they showed up last week. The package will show . Have patience . If I was the seller , I would not isssue a refund at this point but I would stay in contact with buyer .
Matt

[Casey2296]

No brainer at this point.

Probably not the best phrase to use in this particular case.

[insidethewrapper]

If it was stolen , I'd be checking ebay etc to see if the card you bought shows up there.

[Peter_Spaeth]

Brian,
I can appreciate you not being able to address my emails and concerns due to your health issues if it were not for the fact that a search of your posting activity on the forum indicates that you were actively posting on the following dates:
Nov. 26, 27, 29, Dec. 6, 12, 13, 14, 15, 16 (2x), 21 (4x). It is now Dec. 26 and it is only today, after bringing this issue to the attention of fellow members, that you have first responded to my inquiry and began to address my concerns.
I hope you have had a chance to read the many responses I have received to my thread. Overwhelmingly, members who offered their opinion confirmed that proper etiquette is that the seller is responsible for issuing a refund for a lost/stolen package. I continue hoping you will abide by forum etiquette and refund my purchase price. Thank you and I truly do wish you well and good health.
Best wishes for a happy and healthy New Year!
Larry

Dude, the guy just had brain surgery. It's hardly appropriate to be cross-examining him about his posting activity. Maybe he spent a little time here as a diversion from the physical and emotional stress he was under, and your refund wasn't his highest priority. Let it go for now. Show some grace.

[Bcwcardz]

Probably not the best phrase to use in this particular case.


I thought the same. The gent had brain surgery on Wednesday December 2 and was posting cards for sale by Sunday December 6. That’s not a bad recovery time. I hope all is well.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

[unamuzd1]

Dude, the guy just had brain surgery. It's hardly appropriate to be cross-examining him about his posting activity. Maybe he spent a little time here as a diversion from the physical and emotional stress he was under, and your refund wasn't his highest priority. Let it go for now. Show some grace.
I'm not the type to reply with something like "+1," but I will write an entire sentence that includes a "+1" or two to indicate agreement.

[Jim65]

Dude, the guy just had brain surgery. It's hardly appropriate to be cross-examining him about his posting activity. Maybe he spent a little time here as a diversion from the physical and emotional stress he was under, and your refund wasn't his highest priority. Let it go for now. Show some grace.

Sorry Peter, I disagree. While I do have sympathy for the seller, if he can post here, he can take 10 seconds to reply to a PM. If someone sells an item and it was potentially lost or stolen, it should be higher up on the priority list.

A short response explaining his situation and this whole thing could have been avoided.

[bigfish]

dude, the guy just had brain surgery. It's hardly appropriate to be cross-examining him about his posting activity. Maybe he spent a little time here as a diversion from the physical and emotional stress he was under, and your refund wasn't his highest priority. Let it go for now. Show some grace.

+ 100

[Peter_Spaeth]

Sorry Peter, I disagree. While I do have sympathy for the seller, if he can post here, he can take 10 seconds to reply to a PM. If someone sells an item and it was potentially lost or stolen, it should be higher up on the priority list.

A short response explaining his situation and this whole thing could have been avoided.

We see it differently. I understand that it's not necessarily the best look, but I am going to be very loath to come down on a man who's just been through brain surgery about a baseball card transaction.

[Brian Van Horn]

https://tools.usps.com/go/TrackConfirmAction?tRef=fullpage&tLc=3&text28777=&tLabels=9500115895080326668817%2C%2C&tABt=false

One other thing to note is that when I spoke with Audra

Phone: 845-268-8742 on Saturday December 19 who indicated the shipping containing the package was NOT stolen and that they were checking USPS departments for the shipping which included more shipments than one packaging. The phone number is for the post office that handles deliveries to Larry's address.

[notfast]

I’m just trying to help educate and explain how some states’ laws address this exact issue. It’s not semantics. There is a legal difference between a shipping contract and a delivery one.

Your the site’s ultimate arbiter. So, if you say the site’s rule is for the seller to reimburse the buyer then that is the rule. I’ve always personally followed this rule selling on here anyways (although thankfully all my items arrived), because it’s not worth the hassle and reputation damage fighting a buyer.

I’m pretty sure it has been proven in the courts that a “basic” online sale is a destination contract by definition.

Either way, if you pull that card, legal or not....you’re not someone I want to deal with.

[Peter_Spaeth]

I’m pretty sure it has been proven in the courts that a “basic” online sale is a destination contract by definition.

Either way, if you pull that card, legal or not....you’re not someone I want to deal with.

Actually and we have discussed this several years ago,
Uniform Commercial Code, section 2-509. Unless there is a specific provision requiring the seller to deliver at a particular location (a so-called "destination contract"), risk of loss passes to the buyer when the seller delivers to the common carrier.

https://www.net54baseball.com/showthread.php?t=214348&highlight=carrier

But that said, who cares, people should do what's right.

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

[Shoeless Moe]

Actually and we have discussed this several years ago,
Uniform Commercial Code, section 2-509. Unless there is a specific provision requiring the seller to deliver at a particular location (a so-called "destination contract"), risk of loss passes to the buyer when the seller delivers to the common carrier.

https://www.net54baseball.com/showthread.php?t=214348&highlight=carrier

But that said, who cares, people should do what's right.

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------


Ebay sure doesn't go by that.

[Peter_Spaeth]

Ebay sure doesn't go by that.

Correct. The Code only applies in a default situation. Parties can write their own contract.

[jbsports33]

USPS is delayed so much this year, try and work it out - so you can get some sleep. If the package was not tracked then you have a problem, I am sure there is some tracking with your order. I do see this is a good discussion and we need to keep decent communication, just remember the tough year we all had. Good luck! and Happy Collecting to All!

Jimmy

[notfast]

Actually and we have discussed this several years ago,
Uniform Commercial Code, section 2-509. Unless there is a specific provision requiring the seller to deliver at a particular location (a so-called "destination contract"), risk of loss passes to the buyer when the seller delivers to the common carrier.

https://www.net54baseball.com/showthread.php?t=214348&highlight=carrier

But that said, who cares, people should do what's right.

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------


Does UCC apply to average Joe selling online? I thought it only applied to commercial businesses...

[Seven]

Does UCC apply to average Joe selling online? I thought it only applied to commercial businesses...

Could it be argued that if you sell through Goods and Services that you qualify for UCC?

[RCMcKenzie]

Best of luck on your recovery, Brian.

[Bcwcardz]

We see it differently. I understand that it's not necessarily the best look, but I am going to be very loath to come down on a man who's just been through brain surgery about a baseball card transaction.


But he is continuing to post for sale after Sx is he not? I wish the man well and hope everything turns out fine for him.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

[Peter_Spaeth]

Does UCC apply to average Joe selling online? I thought it only applied to commercial businesses...

I haven't thought about it in a long while but I believe that generally speaking, and of course individual states could modify it, it applies to all sales of goods. To be sure there are certain rules applicable to merchants.

[buymycards]

I have this package coming that contains 2 items that were won from an auction house.

Date Time Location Status
December 12, 2020 IN TRANSIT, ARRIVING LATE
December 8, 2020 16:16 LEHIGHTON,PA,18235 DEPARTED POST OFFICE
December 8, 2020 09:39 LEHIGHTON,PA,18235 USPS PICKED UP ITEM
December 8, 2020 05:22 NESQUEHONING,PA,18240 SHIPPING LABEL CREATED, USPS AWAITING ITEM

No movement since December 8th. The PO is inundated with packages and they currently have 19,000 employees who aren't working because of COVID. I think the OP needs to chill and give this a little more time.

[Brian Van Horn]

Best of luck on your recovery, Brian.

Thank you, Rob.

[Peter_Spaeth]

This is going to Boston lol. Now it will be stuck in Jersey City.

December 26, 2020, 10:56 am
Arrived at USPS Regional Origin Facility
JERSEY CITY NJ NETWORK DISTRIBUTION CENTER
Your item arrived at our JERSEY CITY NJ NETWORK DISTRIBUTION CENTER origin facility on December 26, 2020 at 10:56 am. The item is currently in transit to the destination.

December 12, 2020
In Transit to Next Facility

December 8, 2020, 4:15 pm
Departed Post Office
FERRISBURGH, VT 05456
December 8, 2020, 2:22 pm
USPS in possession of item
FERRISBURGH, VT 05456

[Aquarian Sports Cards]

I have this package coming that contains 2 items that were won from an auction house.

Date Time Location Status
December 12, 2020 IN TRANSIT, ARRIVING LATE
December 8, 2020 16:16 LEHIGHTON,PA,18235 DEPARTED POST OFFICE
December 8, 2020 09:39 LEHIGHTON,PA,18235 USPS PICKED UP ITEM
December 8, 2020 05:22 NESQUEHONING,PA,18240 SHIPPING LABEL CREATED, USPS AWAITING ITEM

No movement since December 8th. The PO is inundated with packages and they currently have 19,000 employees who aren't working because of COVID. I think the OP needs to chill and give this a little more time.

Thanks for your patience Rick. I have someone who has filed a Paypal claim against me who's on the same timeline as you.

[Tyruscobb]

I’m pretty sure it has been proven in the courts that a “basic” online sale is a destination contract by definition.

Either way, if you pull that card, legal or not....you’re not someone I want to deal with.

This is inaccurate. The majority rule is courts generally find a shipping contract absent express language to the contrary. Thus, the default/presumption is for a shipping only contract - not a delivery one.

[jayshum]

I have shipped several packages lately that have taken around 2 weeks for delivery, but so far, there haven't been any that have not been updated in more than a week which at least gave hope that they would eventually be delivered (a few are still out there so hopefully they will be as well). I appreciate the patience of the buyers with whom I have been in contact several times to let them know what the tracking is showing.

For the OP, there has been no update in a month now, and he was told by someone at the post office that the package was likely stolen along with some others. Of course, the seller was told it wasn't stolen so with everything going on with USPS right now, who knows what really happened.

As many others have said, this is what insurance is for. It protects the seller in case something happens in transit. You can get into semantics about if the the seller is responsible just for shipping or for actual delivery, but if I buy something from any company and my purchase is being shipped through the mail, if I never receive it, I will be calling them and expecting a refund as I'm sure everyone on this board would do. I don't see why the expectation would be any different when buying from a private individual unless it was specifically discussed as part of the purchase. If insurance was offered but turned down and the buyer was told they should then not expect a refund if something happened in shipping, that would clearly be different, but it doesn't sound like that is the case here.

[RL]

shipping is slow....priority package sent 120 miles away

December 26, 2020, 12:25 pm
Delivered, Front Door/Porch
FRANKLIN, MI 48025
Your item was delivered at the front door or porch at 12:25 pm on December 26, 2020 in FRANKLIN, MI 48025.
December 26, 2020, 6:41 am
Out for Delivery
FRANKLIN, MI 48025
December 26, 2020, 6:30 am
Arrived at Post Office
SOUTHFIELD, MI 48037
December 26, 2020, 4:47 am
Departed USPS Regional Facility
DETROIT MI NETWORK DISTRIBUTION CENTER
December 25, 2020, 7:23 pm
Arrived at USPS Regional Facility
DETROIT MI NETWORK DISTRIBUTION CENTER
December 3, 2020
In Transit to Next Facility
November 29, 2020, 1:28 am
Arrived at USPS Regional Origin Facility
GRAND RAPIDS MI DISTRIBUTION CENTER ANNEX
November 28, 2020, 11:00 am
USPS picked up item
WEIDMAN, MI 48893
November 28, 2020, 12:50 am
Shipping Label Created, USPS Awaiting Item
WEIDMAN, MI 48893

[Leon]

This is inaccurate. The majority rule is courts generally find a shipping contract absent express language to the contrary. Thus, the default/presumption is for a shipping only contract - not a delivery one.

It could easily be argued that the default presumption on this forum is to guarantee safe delivery when otherwise not mentioned.

.

[drcy]

It could easily be argued that the default presumption on this forum is to guarantee safe delivery when otherwise not mentioned.

.

I don't agree with that. But that's just my interpretation/view.

Though you said "easily be argued that the default presumption," which is setting a commandment from Moses.

You are technically the boss and final word about board rules on this site, and I find your judgments to be fair and well-reasoned. And no rule will please everyone.

[pokerplyr80]

It could easily be argued that the default presumption on this forum is to guarantee safe delivery when otherwise not mentioned.

.

I certainly hope this is true. Any card I've ever shipped has either been insured or sent with the presumption that if it doesn't arrive it would be on me. I expect the same when I purchase one, although next time I will make sure to discuss and reach an agreement beforehand.

[Jcfowler6]

FYI. I just received a package that was shipped in Nov 2. These things are happening a lot. I have two other packages outstanding that have been be route for a few weeks.

I’d continue to be patient. And I would also give grace the same as I’d like to receive.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

[robertsmithnocure]

It could easily be argued that the default presumption on this forum is to guarantee safe delivery when otherwise not mentioned.

.

I agree with this. Would it make sense to post a few rules, with this included, in the BST forums so that everyone is on the same page?

[perezfan]

I agree with this. Would it make sense to post a few rules, with this included, in the BST forums so that everyone is on the same page?

I don't mean to Jump Someone Else's Train, but this is a good idea. Having a well defined set of rules would be Just Like Heaven. It would reduce stress during those Inbetween Days when the package is in transit.

Let's make the rules crystal clear, so we can all be Lovecats.

[Casey2296]

Or, we could rely on a man's integrity and word, also patience, understanding, etiquette, and sense of fairness. Quite a refreshing concept in a world where too many rules allow a person to escape personal responsibility and "the right thing to do".

Plus, we'll all get together and "Mize" you if you screw a member over.

[Peter_Spaeth]

Or, we could rely on a man's integrity and word, also patience, understanding, etiquette, and sense of fairness. Quite a refreshing concept in a world where too many rules allow a person to escape personal responsibility and "the right thing to do".

Plus, we'll all get together and "Mize" you if you screw a member over.

Where in the world is there in the world a man so extraordinaire? C'est toi?:D

[notfast]

It’s weird to me that anyone thinks the seller is free of all responsibility after shipping something.

I’ve been selling in this industry for 20+ years and that’s just not how people do business in this market.

Obviously communication is key between both parties but unless the package is stolen after delivery before pickup by buyer, it’s on the seller.

[Casey2296]

Where in the world is there in the world a man so extraordinaire? C'est toi?:D

My father actually, I just try and hold a candle.

[Kaneen]

My Dad had many wise pieces of advice he said to me all the time...when faced with a tough decision, he would always say to me,

"Son, always try to do the right thing...and if you get burnt, then just sit on the blister."
~ Clarence Thomas (1928-2013)

[Tyruscobb]

Or, we could rely on a man's integrity and word, also patience, understanding, etiquette, and sense of fairness. Quite a refreshing concept in a world where too many rules allow a person to escape personal responsibility and "the right thing to do".

Plus, we'll all get together and "Mize" you if you screw a member over.

What personal responsibility is a seller exactly escaping? Most b/s/t posts simply state, “1933 John Doe $225.00 shipped F/F.” Let’s examine the parties’ obligations under this clear, plain language contract.

Buyer: The buyer has satisfied his performance under the contract once he has timely sent the payment. The risk of loss is still with the seller at this point.

Seller: The contract only states “shipped.” The seller is only responsible for placing the card into a third-party carrier’s hands, paying the shipping expense, and providing the seller the relevant information (i.e. the carrier’s identity, and tracking number). After this has occurred, both parties have satisfied their obligations under the contract. The contract is satisfied and over. The risk of loss has now transferred to the buyer.

The seller has no obligation to ride on the third-party carrier’s plane, shadow the delivery person, and personally watch the delivery person hand the card to the buyer. The seller, under my above hypothetical, has no obligation to provide a refund if the package is lost.

If a third-party carrier loses an item, why is the alleged “right thing to do” for the seller to incur the lose? What did the seller do wrong? He did everything the contract required!

He has no control over the third-party carrier’s personnel, equipment, security, etc. This is the reason why there is a huge difference between a shipping contract and a destination/delivery contract.

Most members will shout, “but the buyer is also innocent and did nothing wrong.” Although the buyer didn’t cause the package to become lost, he agreed to the shipping contract’s terms. The parties are entitled to the benefit of their bargain. A deal is a deal.

Ignorance of the law and how the contract’s terms and conditions, which the buyer voluntarily entered into, work is no excuse - especially if the result is the seller taking the loss when he satisfied the contract.

The buyer certainly has the ability to negotiate better terms and conditions. No one made the buyer agree to enter into a shipping contract. The buyer had the ability to negotiate a destination/delivery contract. He also had the ability to negotiate G/S. The buyer could’ve negotiated the seller to buy shipping insurance for him. The buyer did not.

So, who is trying to avoid personal responsibility - the seller who satisfied the term’s of the contract or the buyer who is now adding terms and conditions, and trying to rewrite it once an item is lost?

[Casey2296]

Here's a thought. This whole thread was a shitshow from the start and yes both the buyer and seller share responsibility. Seller clearly could have communicated better and the buyer could have had more patience. Either way it could have gone much better for both without any talk of contractual obligations.

I know of one member here who offered to anonymously pay the $225 to the buyer to make him whole without any recourse from either party. Why? because it was Christmas, the buyer is a nice guy who just lost patience, and the seller has brain cancer.

Sometimes people just do something nice for fellow humans when it seems the right thing to do.

[Peter_Spaeth]

If I sell you a card and it doesn't get there, I am going to refund you even if you technically bore the risk of loss under the UCC or whatever set of rules, because it's the right thing to do. Sometimes being ethical requires going beyond the law.

[Jim65]

What personal responsibility is a seller exactly escaping? Most b/s/t posts simply state, “1933 John Doe $225.00 shipped F/F.” Let’s examine the parties’ obligations under this clear, plain language contract.

Buyer: The buyer has satisfied his performance under the contract once he has timely sent the payment. The risk of loss is still with the seller at this point.

Seller: The contract only states “shipped.” The seller is only responsible for placing the card into a third-party carrier’s hands, paying the shipping expense, and providing the seller the relevant information (i.e. the carrier’s identity, and tracking number). After this has occurred, both parties have satisfied their obligations under the contract. The contract is satisfied and over. The risk of loss has now transferred to the buyer.

The seller has no obligation to ride on the third-party carrier’s plane, shadow the delivery person, and personally watch the delivery person hand the card to the buyer. The seller, under my above hypothetical, has no obligation to provide a refund if the package is lost.

If a third-party carrier loses an item, why is the alleged “right thing to do” for the seller to incur the lose? What did the seller do wrong? He did everything the contract required!

He has no control over the third-party carrier’s personnel, equipment, security, etc. This is the reason why there is a huge difference between a shipping contract and a destination/delivery contract.

Most members will shout, “but the buyer is also innocent and did nothing wrong.” Although the buyer didn’t cause the package to become lost, he agreed to the shipping contract’s terms. The parties are entitled to the benefit of their bargain. A deal is a deal.

Ignorance of the law and how the contract’s terms and conditions, which the buyer voluntarily entered into, work is no excuse - especially if the result is the seller taking the loss when he satisfied the contract.

The buyer certainly has the ability to negotiate better terms and conditions. No one made the buyer agree to enter into a shipping contract. The buyer had the ability to negotiate a destination/delivery contract. He also had the ability to negotiate G/S. The buyer could’ve negotiated the seller to buy shipping insurance for him. The buyer did not.

So, who is trying to avoid personal responsibility - the seller who satisfied the term’s of the contract or the buyer who is now adding terms and conditions, and trying to rewrite it once an item is lost?

When sellers say $225 shipped, I'm sure they mean no extra shipping charges. I've never took that to mean the seller is claiming once shipped, he is free from any responsibility.

[Peter_Spaeth]

Here's a thought. This whole thread was a shitshow from the start and yes both the buyer and seller share responsibility. Seller clearly could have communicated better and the buyer could have had more patience. Either way it could have gone much better for both without any talk of contractual obligations.

I know of one member here who offered to anonymously pay the $225 to the buyer to make him whole without any recourse from either party. Why? because it was Christmas, the buyer is a nice guy who just lost patience, and the seller has brain cancer.

Sometimes people just do something nice for fellow humans when it seems the right thing to do.

To me it became a shitshow when the buyer, having learned the seller just had brain surgery, turned up the pressure on him by pointing out his posting history and complaining that he was not getting priority. Over a baseball card? Seriously? And yes, I get it that others disagree and that's fine.

[Peter_Spaeth]

When sellers say $225 shipped, I'm sure they mean no extra shipping charges. I've never took that to mean the seller is claiming once shipped, he is free from any responsibility.

Agreed. It has nothing to do with risk of loss.

[Casey2296]

To me it became a shitshow when the buyer, having learned the seller just had brain surgery, turned up the pressure on him by pointing out his posting history and complaining that he was not getting priority. Over a baseball card? Seriously? And yes, I get it that others disagree and that's fine.

I would agree with you Peter, bad form as they say.

[Jim65]

Here's a thought. This whole thread was a shitshow from the start and yes both the buyer and seller share responsibility. Seller clearly could have communicated better and the buyer could have had more patience. Either way it could have gone much better for both without any talk of contractual obligations.

The seller didn't communicate at all. If he feels the buyer is being impatient, that does not give him the right to ignore a buyer. This whole thing could have been avoided by the seller taking 10 seconds to reply and ease the buyers mind.

[Tyruscobb]

If I sell you a card and it doesn't get there, I am going to refund you even if you technically bore the risk of loss under the UCC or whatever set of rules, because it's the right thing to do. Sometimes being ethical requires going beyond the law.

Pete, I agree. I’ve constantly stated throughout this thread that the proper etiquette is to reimburse. I only buy and sell $100 to $200 cards on here, as my two local card shops and other connections provide my bigger purchases, so I’m not too concerned with whether I get burned as a buyer or seller. Plus, I wouldn’t mess with the hassle.

However, I can’t blame some sellers if they don’t want to reimburse. You never know another man’s financial condition. Maybe the seller can’t afford to take the hit. I know there are a lot of wealthy people on here. I’m sure there are also collectors on here with limited budgets as well.

I’ve practiced law for the better part of two decades, and am just trying to educate and provide a perspective on both parties’ sides.

[Peter_Spaeth]

Pete, I agree. I’ve constantly stated throughout this thread that the proper etiquette is to reimburse. I only buy and sell $100 to $200 cards on here, as my two local card shops and other connections provide my bigger purchases, so I’m not too concerned with whether I get burned as a buyer or seller. Plus, I wouldn’t mess with the hassle.

However, I can’t blame some sellers if they don’t want to reimburse. You never know another man’s financial condition. Maybe the seller can’t afford to take the hit. I know there are a lot of wealthy people on here. I’m sure there are also collectors on here with limited budgets as well.

I’ve practiced law for the better part of two decades, and am just trying to educate and provide a perspective on both parties’ sides.

A seller can purchase insurance against that contingency, if worried about it.

[Casey2296]

The seller didn't communicate at all. If he feels the buyer is being impatient, that does not give him the right to ignore a buyer. This whole thing could have been avoided by the seller taking 10 seconds to reply and ease the buyers mind.

Of course, communication solves most issue. I do find it odd that the seller is posting here without addressing a satisfactory solution to the transaction in question.

[Jcfowler6]

Two points to consider Well here is “Goods and services” vs “friends and family”.

Why is there such a thing as goods and services via PayPal? The buyer can pay for protection. The buyer chose not to pay the extra fee.

The other side of this - did the seller imply that he takes all risk by offering “friends and family”.? To me That’s the question

With these both in mind. Caveat emptor - the risk falls on the buyer. Protect yourself. When you don’t you should not cry foul in my opinion.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

[danmckee]

If nothing was mentioned, imo, it is the seller's responsibility to get the card/item to the buyer. It is the buyer's responsibility to pay for it. If the card doesn't get there it is on the seller for a refund. That is if nothing is agreed to beforehand concerning shipping.

I believe all 1st class now comes with tracking and $50 insurance. Again, on the seller to go get it if he wants it.

Here is a 1949 Vis Ed card of Doby....because threads need cards.

https://luckeycards.com/phuncviseddoby1949.jpg

+1 on Leon's explanation and I have a Feller in that weird issue Leon.

[Tyruscobb]

Agreed. It has nothing to do with risk of loss.

It has everything to do with risk of loss. Even though the card may be 3,000 miles away, you become the legal owner as soon as you pay the buyer. You don’t become the owner when you open the package at your house and physically take possession. You become the owner when payment is made.

However, despite your ownership before the card is even shipped, the question becomes when the risk of loss transfers from the seller (the possessor, but no longer owner) to buyer (the current owner, but not possessor).

“225 shipped F/F” means in exchange for $225, the seller will sell you the card and ship it to you. That’s it. There are no implied or other implicit conditions or terms. You can try to read them in all you want. Shipped does not mean delivered.

[Peter_Spaeth]

It has everything to do with risk of loss. Even though the card may be 3,000 miles away, you become the legal owner as soon as you pay the buyer. You don’t become the owner when you open the package at your house and physically take possession. You become the owner when payment is made.

However, despite your ownership before the card is even shipped, the question becomes when the risk of loss transfers from the seller (the possessor, but no longer owner) to buyer (the current owner, but not possessor).

“225 shipped F/F” means in exchange for $225, the seller will sell you the card and ship it to you. That’s it. There are no implied or other implicit conditions or terms. You can try to read them in all you want. Shipped does not mean delivered.

To the extent you are arguing the use of the word "shipped" suggests both parties understood it to be a "shipping contract" with what that implies for who bears the risk of loss, I disagree. Nobody thinks about it in those terms except maybe you LOL. But as to the legal effect of the contract, I agree with you, I was the first to post the relevant UCC provision if memory serves. But my point is that the ultimate question here is ethical, not legal.

[jayshum]

What personal responsibility is a seller exactly escaping? Most b/s/t posts simply state, “1933 John Doe $225.00 shipped F/F.” Let’s examine the parties’ obligations under this clear, plain language contract.

Buyer: The buyer has satisfied his performance under the contract once he has timely sent the payment. The risk of loss is still with the seller at this point.

Seller: The contract only states “shipped.” The seller is only responsible for placing the card into a third-party carrier’s hands, paying the shipping expense, and providing the seller the relevant information (i.e. the carrier’s identity, and tracking number). After this has occurred, both parties have satisfied their obligations under the contract. The contract is satisfied and over. The risk of loss has now transferred to the buyer.

The seller has no obligation to ride on the third-party carrier’s plane, shadow the delivery person, and personally watch the delivery person hand the card to the buyer. The seller, under my above hypothetical, has no obligation to provide a refund if the package is lost.

If a third-party carrier loses an item, why is the alleged “right thing to do” for the seller to incur the lose? What did the seller do wrong? He did everything the contract required!

He has no control over the third-party carrier’s personnel, equipment, security, etc. This is the reason why there is a huge difference between a shipping contract and a destination/delivery contract.

Most members will shout, “but the buyer is also innocent and did nothing wrong.” Although the buyer didn’t cause the package to become lost, he agreed to the shipping contract’s terms. The parties are entitled to the benefit of their bargain. A deal is a deal.

Ignorance of the law and how the contract’s terms and conditions, which the buyer voluntarily entered into, work is no excuse - especially if the result is the seller taking the loss when he satisfied the contract.

The buyer certainly has the ability to negotiate better terms and conditions. No one made the buyer agree to enter into a shipping contract. The buyer had the ability to negotiate a destination/delivery contract. He also had the ability to negotiate G/S. The buyer could’ve negotiated the seller to buy shipping insurance for him. The buyer did not.

So, who is trying to avoid personal responsibility - the seller who satisfied the term’s of the contract or the buyer who is now adding terms and conditions, and trying to rewrite it once an item is lost?

When I buy something online, there usually is a charge for shipping not delivery. Are you saying that if I never receive the item, a company could tell me they fulfilled their legal requirement by sending out the item and it's not their fault it never arrived? Since you indicated in a later post you practice law, I am interested in the answer to my question because while I am fairly certain any company would issue a refund if an item never arrived, I would like to know if you are saying that legally, they wouldn't have to.

[Jim65]

Two points to consider Well here is “Goods and services” vs “friends and family”.

Why is there such a thing as goods and services via PayPal? The buyer can pay for protection. The buyer chose not to pay the extra fee.

The other side of this - did the seller imply that he takes all risk by offering “friends and family”.? To me That’s the question

With these both in mind. Caveat emptor - the risk falls on the buyer. Protect yourself. When you don’t you should not cry foul in my opinion.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

Friends and Family was never intended to be used to buy stuff. It was meant for sending money to friends and family.

In this sale the seller asked for F&F and didn't give an option that includes buyer protection. I think some people don't understand paying by F&F means giving up any protection that PayPal offers. This isn't the sellers fault, buyers should educate themselves.

[Jim65]

It has everything to do with risk of loss. Even though the card may be 3,000 miles away, you become the legal owner as soon as you pay the buyer. You don’t become the owner when you open the package at your house and physically take possession. You become the owner when payment is made.

However, despite your ownership before the card is even shipped, the question becomes when the risk of loss transfers from the seller (the possessor, but no longer owner) to buyer (the current owner, but not possessor).

“225 shipped F/F” means in exchange for $225, the seller will sell you the card and ship it to you. That’s it. There are no implied or other implicit conditions or terms. You can try to read them in all you want. Shipped does not mean delivered.

If the seller accepts PayPal, they must abide by PayPal's terms and that means Goods and Services are protected until the product is delivered, not just shipped.

[Jcfowler6]

Friends and Family was never intended to be used to buy stuff. It was meant for sending money to friends and family.

In this sale the seller asked for F&F and didn't give an option that includes buyer protection. I think some people don't understand paying by F&F means giving up any protection that PayPal offers. This isn't the sellers fault, buyers should educate themselves.


I’ve had that option as a buyer presented to me many times before. To pay with f&f. I will often add 3% and pay via goods and services in those instances. I don’t always do that but when I don’t I know I am taking a risk.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

[Tyruscobb]

To the extent you are arguing the use of the word "shipped" suggests both parties understood it to be a "shipping contract" with what that implies for who bears the risk of loss, I disagree. Nobody thinks about it in those terms except maybe you LOL. But as to the legal effect of the contract, I agree with you, I was the first to post the relevant UCC provision if memory serves. But my point is that the ultimate question here is ethical, not legal.

You may be right. I’m probably one of the few that thinks about these things. I can’t turn it off. That is what a legal education and career does to you. :D

Ethically, I think the fair thing to do amongst friends is to split the loss. However, I’m sure this too won’t satisfy some of the folks here. They will want the seller to reimburse the buyer and pay him for his emotional distress. :p

[Jim65]

I’ve had that option as a buyer presented to me many times before. To pay with f&f. I will often add 3% and pay via goods and services in those instances. I don’t always do that but when I don’t I know I am taking a risk.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

I agree, I always add the 3% and keep my protection. Transactions can always go bad, if the OP used G&S, he'd have his money back.

[Peter_Spaeth]

You may be right. I’m probably one of the few that thinks about these things. I can’t turn it off. That is what a legal education and career does to you. :D

Ethically, I think the fair thing to do amongst friends is to split the loss. However, I’m sure this too won’t satisfy some of the folks here. They will want the seller to reimburse the buyer and pay him for his emotional distress. :p

In my fourth decade practicing and I have long since turned it off … well, sort of lol.

[Tyruscobb]

If the seller accepts PayPal, they must abide by PayPal's terms and that means Goods and Services are protected until the product is delivered, not just shipped.

I understand that. But, the parties apparently negotiated and agreed to opt out of G/S, and agreed on F/F. The buyer lost all his protections at that point.

People are forgetting (or maybe they honestly do not know) that their experiences and transactions with/through large commercial companies, who have certain policies and rules, do not always apply to private individuals entering into a private contract. These large company transactions have created expectations that are not always the law, and do not always apply to private transactions. People, however, are applying these large companies’ rules and their conditioned consumer expectations to other contracts. This is a mistake. You cannot mix apples and oranges.

[Tyruscobb]

In my fourth decade practicing and I have long since turned it off … well, sort of lol.

Sounds like you may have 20 years on me. I got an A+ in my UCC and secured transactions class by the way. Ha.

[Peter_Spaeth]

Sounds like you may have 20 years on me. I got an A+ in my UCC and secured transactions class by the way. Ha.

And it shows. :)

[bnorth]

Friends and Family was never intended to be used to buy stuff. It was meant for sending money to friends and family.

In this sale the seller asked for F&F and didn't give an option that includes buyer protection. I think some people don't understand paying by F&F means giving up any protection that PayPal offers. This isn't the sellers fault, buyers should educate themselves.

To the bold part. I have sold many items on here and used PP FF as one of several payments options accepted. I have no problem with the buyer then paying with regular PP as long as they pay the fees. I usually list stuff for the absolute cheapest I will sell it for. So it pisses me off when the buyer pays with regular PP and doesn't add the fees. Yes it is usually only a dollar or a few dollars but I still think it is BS.

To the original post, after a month a seller should refund no matter how bad USPS is at the time. If it does show up later the buyer needs to then pay the seller. Just my 2 cents.:)

[Tyruscobb]

And it shows. :)

I’ve enjoyed discussing/debating the law with you Peter. I’m an insurance defense attorney. Maybe if I pick up a few more insurance carriers or third-party administrator clients this coming year, I can afford some of your cards! You are always offering nice items.

[Peter_Spaeth]

I’ve enjoyed discussing/debating the law with you Peter. I’m an insurance defense attorney. Maybe if I pick up a few more insurance carriers or third-party administrator clients this coming year, I can afford some of your cards! You are always offering nice items.

It's funny, I just bought collectors' insurance and despite all my legal training and experience I just got too bored to read through all the fine print lol. I did, however, get the agent to confirm my understanding of the policy in writing which is something I suppose.

[cammb]

When I sell a card and state shipped it means free shipping, nothing else. There isn’t a person on this board who can guarantee that the card will be delivered. If the buyer wants insurance or priority shipping, he should state it. I am on the side of the seller on this one.

[bnorth]

When I sell a card and state shipped it means free shipping, nothing else. There isn’t a person on this board who can guarantee that the card will be delivered. If the buyer wants insurance or priority shipping, he should state it. I am on the side of the seller on this one.

BS, there are many of us on this forum that guarantee the card(s) they sell will be delivered or a refund will be given.

[Leon]

When I sell a card and state shipped it means free shipping, nothing else. There isn’t a person on this board who can guarantee that the card will be delivered. If the buyer wants insurance or priority shipping, he should state it. I am on the side of the seller on this one.

You need to communicate that because it is not the norm on this forum. I would be pissed if you said shipped and didn't guarantee delivery.

[Peter_Spaeth]

When I sell a card and state shipped it means free shipping, nothing else. There isn’t a person on this board who can guarantee that the card will be delivered. If the buyer wants insurance or priority shipping, he should state it. I am on the side of the seller on this one.

Of course you can't guarantee it. But you can and should, and apparently according to the rules do, bear the risk of loss.

[Peter_Spaeth]

BS, there are many of us on this forum that guarantee the card(s) they sell will be delivered or a refund will be given.

+1
or maybe even +2

[Tabe]

When sellers say $225 shipped, I'm sure they mean no extra shipping charges. I've never took that to mean the seller is claiming once shipped, he is free from any responsibility.

Your understanding is exactly correct. Arguing otherwise is disingenuous, at best.

[todeen]

BS, there are many of us on this forum that guarantee the card(s) they sell will be delivered or a refund will be given.Concur. Standard practice of Amazon has forced every other e-business to guarantee delivery. Standard practice of internet sales should be expected on this site of collectors as well.

Sent from my SAMSUNG-SM-G930A using Tapatalk

[Kidnapped18]

This is like a law school Contracts I exam from First Year!

Larry (Buyer) is due a full refund of $225 + shipping from Brian (Seller).
Buyer never received card that he fully paid for and he should not bear any loss. Absent any language to the contrary, it is the Seller's responsibility to ensure mailing AND delivery of the card and if card is mailed but not delivered then Seller (Responsible Party) needs to refund the purchase amount.

As stated in an earlier post, 'parties can write their own contract.' You can always request/negotiate insurance be purchased on a card and incorporate that into the final price.

I don't understand why there is even a discussion of G/S v F/F via PayPal...to me both are irrelevant in this instance.

All that said Buyer does need to realize Seller did just have major surgery and have just a little more patience regardless of how many posts Seller has made in recent weeks.

It is still the Christmas season right?

Tony

[JK]

I don't mean to Jump Someone Else's Train, but this is a good idea. Having a well defined set of rules would be Just Like Heaven. It would reduce stress during those Inbetween Days when the package is in transit.

Let's make the rules crystal clear, so we can all be Lovecats.

A defined set of rules would certainly Cure some of the issues being discussed in this thread (sorry, couldn't resist).

[drcy]

"$225 shipped"

Plain language reading would mean shipped to the destination. If the destination is Toledo, I don't think "shipped to Buenos Aires" or "shipped to my cousin's house" qualifies as shipped under the circumstance. Shipped is short for "shipped to ___.

If shipped doesn't mean "shipped to you," and instead means "shipped to you or anywhere else in the world," then the word has no practical meaning and there would be no need for shipping insurance.

Not to say it isn't a "life is unfair" scenario for the seller you gave the package to the USPS. Sucks for the seller, and, as already said, it can be a financial problem for some people to have to suddenly reimburse the money.

If the seller means/wants something else ("My responsibility is to get it in the mail. If the USPS loses it, that's not my responsibility" or "$225 put it in the mail"), that can be written in the sales description.

[cammb]

BS, there are many of us on this forum that guarantee the card(s) they sell will be delivered or a refund will be given.

When you sell a card, do you state that you guarantee delivery? No one states that. It is implied. A good seller will always refund but that’s not to say he has to.

[Jim65]

When I sell a card and state shipped it means free shipping, nothing else. There isn’t a person on this board who can guarantee that the card will be delivered. If the buyer wants insurance or priority shipping, he should state it. I am on the side of the seller on this one.

Since you take the sellers side, do you think its ok for him to ignore PMs about lost package when he has the buyers $225 in his pocket?

[Leon]

When you sell a card, do you state that you guarantee delivery? No one states that. It is implied. A good seller will always refund but that’s not to say he has to.

Many times I will say "delivered" in my for sale posts. Other times I will say shipping but insurance is on the buyer if wanted. And other times I might say all shipping and insurance at the buyers expense (or words to that effect). And some other times I don't say anything and then I expect safe delivery is on me.

It is all about communication. But there won't be more rules on our forum for this. I don' feel the need to change now and don't like too many rules. If instituted they have to be enforced. The name/anonymity rule keeps me busy enough.

and to answer James' question right above. while I agree generally, with Brian's medical issues and postage the way it is, I think utmost patience should be given. In the end it is on the seller though if nothing was discussed.

Brian- I wish you a speedy recovery, btw


.

[mckinneyj]

If I get my $$ to a seller then I expect the seller to get their card to me. Deal is done when both actions have occurred. Absent that someone needs to be made whole.

[Jim65]

and to answer James' question right above. while I agree generally, with Brian's medical issues and postage the way it is, I think utmost patience should be given.

Leon, I don't necessarily disagree but at what point of no package and no response from seller is beyond being patient? I'd say a month is past that point.

The seller posted here on quite a few occasions in that time so a simple PM "I'm sorry, I'm having health issues" isn't too much to ask. Otherwise, how does the buyer know sellers situation? I assume the OP isn't heartless.

[cammb]

If I get my $$ to a seller then I expect the seller to get their card to me. Deal is done when both actions have occurred. Absent that someone needs to be made whole.

It is for you to get your money to the seller. Chances are you do it electronically.

[Leon]

Leon, I don't necessarily disagree but at what point of no package and no response from seller is beyond being patient? I'd say a month is past that point.

The seller posted here on quite a few occasions in that time so a simple PM "I'm sorry, I'm having health issues" isn't too much to ask. Otherwise, how does the buyer know sellers situation? I assume the OP isn't heartless.

I don't disagree he should have communicated. IF he is posting other stuff he can sure send a PM or email to the buyer. And 1 month is pretty long but right now I would almost give it about 6 weeks. But that is just me. A month is generally more than enough time without the holidays and the USPS issues.

[Peter_Spaeth]

Meanwhile, everything I order from Amazon arrives on time, whether it goes through the USPS or not.

[drcy]

When you sell a card, do you state that you guarantee delivery? No one states that. It is implied. A good seller will always refund but that’s not to say he has to.

I don't agree, but Cammb's points are legitimate.

People should be clear in their sales description what they mean. I don't think it's a bad argument to say "If the USPS loses it...," but, from this thread, that's obviously not what many buyers expect. Thus, be clear in the sales description.

Further, insurance can be the option of the buyer, and if the buyer chooses not to pay for postal insurance, then that buys into Cammb's argument that the buyer is choosing to take that chance on the item possibly being lost or damaged in the mail. There, it could be fairly argued that is on the buyer.

Seller in description: "I'm not responsible for the USPS's errors. You are welcome to pay for insurance, but if you choose not to have the item insured that is your choice, I am not responsible for loss or damage caused by USPS." That's a fair enough thing to say.

Obviously, Paypal, credit card company and Facebook are final arbiters of where the money goes or stays, making many arguments moot.

Also, you're choosing to take the risk when you pay with F/F. The buyer can't claim entire innocence when agreeing to do that, as he is both agreeing to give up normal protections and it involves some dishonesty.

[jchcollins]

To me, the simplest lesson here that bears repeating and is applicable in virtually any context - is that if you are buying something like a baseball card of moderate or more value from someone outside of a forum with another stated guarantee (i.e. eBay...) then DO NOT send funds FF via PayPal. They will not cover you, because the implication is that you were giving someone money, not paying for a good or service. Just because a seller has a good reputation on a forum, or nobody else has ever had an apparent problem with them in the past does not mean your particular transaction will go off without a hitch. (Anymore, likely...) the USPS is having horrible issues and sometimes takes longer to deliver packages these days than the time in which they might have been reasonably considered flat out lost in just the recent past. The seller might have major health issues, and not be able to communicate as expected.

All could have been avoided with PayPal G&S. Honestly even though it is increasingly more expensive, this is why I sometimes stick to buying things through eBay, because their guarantee is that you GET the item, without having to wade through a lot of legal mumbo-jumbo about who bears responsibility in the case that you DON'T get the item. Thusly they paid for a $150-ish card I bought about a year ago that was either lost or stolen, even though it had been marked delivered by the USPS. PayPal should have covered me as well had that transaction not been through eBay, however. I guess I'm a double glutton for fee punishment, but I don't lose $$ on cards.

Caveat Emptor. Which to me means also that the buyer should protect their purchases in some way in every situation...

[mckinneyj]

> if the buyer chooses not to pay for postal insurance

Postal insurance is something that may only be purchased by the sender(seller), and any claim on that insurance need be made by whomever is in possession of the original mailing receipt, and, if awarded, is collected by the that person. The claimant may have to produce proof of value. IMO, not much protection for the receiver(buyer)...

https://www.usps.com/help/claims.htm

fwiw

[Jcfowler6]

> if the buyer chooses not to pay for postal insurance

Postal insurance is something that may only be purchased by the sender(seller), and any claim on that insurance need be made by whomever is in possession of the original mailing receipt, and, if awarded, is collected by the that person. The claimant may have to produce proof of value. IMO, not much protection for the receiver(buyer)...

https://www.usps.com/help/claims.htm

fwiw


Goods and services thru PayPal is the buyers protection.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

[Shoeless Moe]

Has the seller contacted the buyer and have you two worked anything out yet?

It's been 3 days since this thread was opened. I hope by now the seller has reached out..............finally.

[Fred]

Just curious, if the seller requests F/F and S/S is selected (and the 3% fee is paid by the buyer), does that mean paypal is going to side on the buyers behalf if the package is NOT RECEIVED? What if the buyer produces a legitimate tracking number to paypal? Does that have weight in the decision to side with the buyer by paypal?

Bottom line, is paying paypal S/S like putting the seller on notice that they might want to consider insuring the package?

How many people on the BST pay the 3% for S/S even though the seller is asking for F/F?

Can the seller cancel the sale if F/F was requested by the buyer paid with the S/S option (and 3% paid for by the buyer)?

Just trying to get ahead of the curve here.

[Exhibitman]

Or, we could rely on a man's integrity and word, also patience, understanding, etiquette, and sense of fairness. Quite a refreshing concept in a world where too many rules allow a person to escape personal responsibility and "the right thing to do".


Precisely. Gambling debts are not enforceable but a gentleman pays his gambling debts regardless. If we have to resort to legalities here then we lose the concept of community. From a community-based standpoint, if you as a seller request PPFF you are telling the buyer that getting the item to him is on you because you are asking him to throw away all of his protections. For that reason I always, always pay via paypal's commercial process for anything expensive, even if I have to add in the 3%, just so I never have to deal with this scenario. If I want a truly unprotected transaction I can send a check or pay via Zelle or PPFF, with the understanding that I may have to eat the loss if the item doesn't arrive through no fault of the seller and if the seller chooses not to be a gentleman about the loss.

Legally speaking, I think we have a situation of in pari delicto here: both sides are culpable and the courts might not grant either relief. They agreed to use an unprotected method to transmit the payment and the item was truly lost in the mail.

[Jim65]

Just curious, if the seller requests F/F and S/S is selected (and the 3% fee is paid by the buyer), does that mean paypal is going to side on the buyers behalf if the package is NOT RECEIVED? What if the buyer produces a legitimate tracking number to paypal? Does that have weight in the decision to side with the buyer by paypal?

Bottom line, is paying paypal S/S like putting the seller on notice that they might want to consider insuring the package?

How many people on the BST pay the 3% for S/S even though the seller is asking for F/F?

Can the seller cancel the sale if F/F was requested by the buyer paid with the S/S option (and 3% paid for by the buyer)?

Just trying to get ahead of the curve here.

PayPal guarantees delivery. They will refund when package is lost or item is different than seller described. Buyers have 180 days to file a claim. Whether they take the money back from the seller is up to them.

I guess a seller could decline a G&S when a F&F payment was asked for. Why would a seller want a buyer to forfeit their Buyers Protection? I certainly wouldn't do business with that person.

2 additional things.
PayPal requires Signature Confirmation on items over $750.

Its against PayPal rules to use F&F to pay for items, I read they are going to start cracking down on people who abuse it so everyone should be careful.

[jchcollins]

Its against PayPal rules to use F&F to pay for items, I read they are going to start cracking down on people who abuse it so everyone should be careful.

And indeed they are. The vintage card forums on FB lately have more than a few tales of people's PayPal accounts that have been mysteriously suspended without warning. In many cases these folks have admitted to taking a lot of FF payments for cards.

[Brian Van Horn]

Well, put in a report with the local post office today given the fact of the understaffed masses working the post office. This would have been put in Saturday, but there was difficulty filling out the report in what fit what category for processing. Received a call from 845-315-2235 6:05 p.m. EST. Returned the call at 6:07 p.m. EST and given an indistinct answer as to the call location although the area code matches that of the post office for the Congers area.

[Seven]

And indeed they are. The vintage card forums on FB lately have more than a few tales of people's PayPal accounts that have been mysteriously suspended without warning. In many cases these folks have admitted to taking a lot of FF payments for cards.

+1 to this. I noticed this in the couple of card groups that I belong to on FB. I'd imagine Venmo might be a better alternative for those who are trying to skirt the 3% fee but still want to use an app/service.

Ultimately at the end of the day, Cash is king. I've put a hold on purchasing cards at the moment, just with all of the money being dedicated towards holiday purchases, however, I'd much rather make deals with people in person than through a service such as paypal. Not often the most convenient, and not always possible, but something that definitely ensures the card gets to the buyer and the money to the seller.

[Fred]

USPS Insurance rates:

$50.01 to $100 is $2.05.
$100.01 to $200 is $2.45.
$200.01 to $300 is $4.60.

The price per additional $100 of insurance, valued over $300 up to $5,000, is $4.60 plus $0.90 per each $100 or fraction thereof.

$500 = $6.40
$1K = $10.90
$2K = $19.9

If the insurance rate for USPS is about 1% (there about), then wouldn't it just make sense to pay the 1% USPS insurance cost rather than the PP G/S rate of 3%?

Based on the information provided, PPGS is 3% and is great for the buyer because of the protection offered.

If the buyer paid for PPGS and declined the insurance coverage offered by the seller, then it wouldn't matter if the package didn't show up (for any reason), because the buyer is protected whether or not they opted to pay for insurance. Is that abut the gist of it?

I'm still lost on how paypal could force PPGS on sales rather then PPFF. I suppose if paypal saw MANY transactions, then they could assume the payment transfers are for G/S rather than a friendly payment.

Last comment (hopefully) - Is paypal relying on the community to be honest in the transactions? I can see where paypal would like to collect fees because paypal is a business and PPFF payments are free to both sender and recipient.

[Jim65]

+1 to this. I noticed this in the couple of card groups that I belong to on FB. I'd imagine Venmo might be a better alternative for those who are trying to skirt the 3% fee but still want to use an app/service.

Ultimately at the end of the day, Cash is king. I've put a hold on purchasing cards at the moment, just with all of the money being dedicated towards holiday purchases, however, I'd much rather make deals with people in person than through a service such as paypal. Not often the most convenient, and not always possible, but something that definitely ensures the card gets to the buyer and the money to the seller.

For those who use Venmo, they offer zero buyer protection.

[jayshum]

USPS Insurance rates:

$50.01 to $100 is $2.05.
$100.01 to $200 is $2.45.
$200.01 to $300 is $4.60.

The price per additional $100 of insurance, valued over $300 up to $5,000, is $4.60 plus $0.90 per each $100 or fraction thereof.

$500 = $6.40
$1K = $10.90
$2K = $19.9

If the insurance rate for USPS is about 1% (there about), then wouldn't it just make sense to pay the 1% USPS insurance cost rather than the PP G/S rate of 3%?

Based on the information provided, PPGS is 3% and is great for the buyer because of the protection offered.

If the buyer paid for PPGS and declined the insurance coverage offered by the seller, then it wouldn't matter if the package didn't show up (for any reason), because the buyer is protected whether or not they opted to pay for insurance. Is that abut the gist of it?

I'm still lost on how paypal could force PPGS on sales rather then PPFF. I suppose if paypal saw MANY transactions, then they could assume the payment transfers are for G/S rather than a friendly payment.

Last comment (hopefully) - Is paypal relying on the community to be honest in the transactions? I can see where paypal would like to collect fees because paypal is a business and PPFF payments are free to both sender and recipient.

I have seen several posts that have indicated the difficulty in collecting on USPS insurance claims so that could be one reason to use G/S even if it costs more.

[notfast]

I’m surprised so many people are talking about USPS insurance. I thought it was common knowledge they don’t pay out on sports cards and in the limited cases they do, it’s a huge ordeal.

Third party or “self insure” — save yourself money over the long run.

[Directly]

I’m surprised so many people are talking about USPS insurance. I thought it was common knowledge they don’t pay out on sports cards and in the limited cases they do, it’s a huge ordeal.

Third party or “self insure” — save yourself money over the long run.

So if that's the case why do they sell insurance at all?

[Jcfowler6]

Tired of seeing the term “side”. Who’s side are you on blah blah blah.

The problem is the problem. Let’s be for fixing the problem. That’s the side I’m on. Otherwise this experiment of Net54 is a failure and is no different than anywhere else.

I see the delivery service as the problem. Use PayPal good and services to avoid this type of problem. I think this current situation sucks for both the buyer and seller.

I’ve had tons of great interactions on this board and many great deals. Let’s keep moving forward.

Let’s make net54 great again. Lol. I need another bourbon.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

[cammb]

One of my reasons for taking the sellers “side” is that I don,t like outing another member like he was some troll on eBay.

[drcy]

Tired of seeing the term “side”. Who’s side are you on blah blah blah.

In the case of a card being lost or damaged by the USPS, both sides have been harmed. It's not that one side is innocent and the other guilty, good or bad. They're both in a spot not caused by either of them.

[Brian Van Horn]

Just to straighten out one thing in the title, for the third time this afternoon it was stated by Audra in Larry's Conger's mail office that there was no theft.

[jayshum]

Just to straighten out one thing in the title, for the third time this afternoon it was stated by Audra in Larry's Conger's mail office that there was no theft.

I'm curious how they can state with certainty that there was no theft. If that is the case, do they know where the package is and then why can't they just get the package delivered?

[Fred]

I’m surprised so many people are talking about USPS insurance. I thought it was common knowledge they don’t pay out on sports cards and in the limited cases they do, it’s a huge ordeal.

Third party or “self insure” — save yourself money over the long run.

I'm confused - why would USPS offer insurance if they're not going to cover the losses if they lose the package?

[bnorth]

I'm confused - why would USPS offer insurance if they're not going to cover the losses if they lose the package?

Insurance is a HUGE money maker, it wouldn't be a product if they lost money by paying out claims.

[hammertime]

If I sell you a card and it doesn't get there, I am going to refund you even if you technically bore the risk of loss under the UCC or whatever set of rules, because it's the right thing to do. Sometimes being ethical requires going beyond the law.

Sure but when do you throw in the towel on it "not getting there"? That's not so cut and dry. I think it's important people try to see things from the perspective of the other side. A very simple task but by no means easy. The buyer assumes the card was stolen because he was told it was most likely stolen, so to him the situation is over and he's due a refund. Additionally he's probably anxious about having paid via f&f, and not getting a response from the seller only ratchets up that anxiety. The seller probably sees the USPS dealing with historic delays that they're just now beginning to unwind and assumes it could still be delivered. Both of these viewpoints are reasonable.

As others have stated, communication is key. If I were the seller in a situation like this is like to think I'd refund the buyer with the agreement that the payment will be re-sent if the item ever shows up.

[Tyruscobb]

This thread’s pro-buyer crowd is placing sellers in an untenable position. A seller has no protection and is always at a buyer’s pure mercy/honesty. The issue boils down to proof. Let’s walk it through.

What proof do we have that a seller has ever shipped a card? Well, there is a tracking number. This is hard evidence that the seller upheld his end. Absent hacking, there is no way for a seller to fake a tracking number that then shows up in the third-party carrier’s computer/tracking system. The seller providing a tracking number does not rely on his word, mercy, or honesty. This is objective evidence that the seller did what he said he would do.

What proof do we have that a buyer never receives a card? Checking the tracking number is a good start. However, we have all read stories on this site and others' where buyers have claimed that they never received an item despite the third-party carrier’s system showing that it delivered the item.

Is this possible? Sure - computer glitches occur, and sometimes thieves raid mailboxes and porches. Let’s use this scenario – one where the carrier’s system shows it delivered the item, but the buyer swears he never received it?

Under this scenario, the seller has absolute proof that he shipped the card. He has a tracking number that he provided the buyer two weeks earlier. Moreover, the tracking number shows the card went from the seller’s location to the buyer’s location. This is nice evidence. The seller also has evidence that the carrier delivered the card. The carrier’s tracking number shows it allegedly delivered it.

Now, what proof does the buyer have that he never received the card? His own word - That is it. So, despite all the seller’s objective evidence, the seller is now at the buyer’s pure mercy that he is telling the truth. Sellers have to provide evidence – i.e. shipping receipts, tracking numbers, etc. Buyers do not – we simply have to just take their word?

This is a ridiculous position to place sellers in, and exactly why most states have passed laws determining that the the risk of loss passes from the seller to the buyer once he has placed the item into the third-party carrier’s hands, paid for the shipping expense, and emailed the buyer all the details – carrier identity, tracking number, estimated delivery date, etc. This rule is easy and makes sense.

To the insurance table beating crowd – under my hypothetical scenario, do you think the seller has any chance of collecting the insurance proceeds? Good luck. The third-party carrier will say our system shows we delivered the item. So, under my scenario, buying insurance will do nothing, and the seller wasted his money. You might as well use it as toilet paper. How does a seller protect himself, even if he has insurance, if the carrier’s system shows it delivered the item?

I have a hard time placing a higher standard on a private seller than a private buyer. This isn’t a small buyer dealing with a large, sophisticated, international, multi-billion dollar box store seller, who has the financial means to take the hit and wants to always keep the customer happy; this is private citizen John Doe seller dealing with private citizen James Doe buyer.

As I said before, this thread’s pro-buyer crowd has become accustomed to the policies and rules that large companies and financial institutes implement to protect the buyer. These rules are not laws, and do not apply to private individuals entering into private contracts. These companies have every incentive to protect buyers – they want future business. The customer is always right to them. This is why they have adopted rules that are oftentimes contrary to the actual laws that govern contracts and shipping.

Parties are free to negotiate a deal's terms. if a buyer wants protection then demand and negotiate it during the deal. Just know that the seller is probably not going to internalize this protection's added expense and may increase the deal's total price. Not using these protections benefits both parties. It allows the seller to not provide a refund if the buyer claims the card was never delivered. On the flip side, it allows the buyer to purchase a card for a cheaper price. Again, seller's don't simply internalize the added protection's cost, they pass it along to the seller and adjust the card's final price.

So, what is a nice compromise for a collegial collecting community? I say the two parties split the loss – King Solomon wisdom.

[notfast]

So if that's the case why do they sell insurance at all?

I'm confused - why would USPS offer insurance if they're not going to cover the losses if they lose the package?

It’s just not as cut and dry as you’d want or expect especially when dealing with something extremely valuable.

Fed Ex will let you insure a package for basically whatever amount you want but they only cover $1k in collectibles.

Buying third party insurance and following their requirements for shipping will save you significant amounts of money as well as give you a better piece of mind than trying to get a claim through USPS

[Exhibitman]

This thread’s pro-buyer crowd is placing sellers in an untenable position. A seller has no protection and is always at a buyer’s pure mercy/honesty. The issue boils down to proof. Let’s walk it through.

What proof do we have that a seller has ever shipped a card? Well, there is a tracking number. This is hard evidence that the seller upheld his end. Absent hacking, there is no way for a seller to fake a tracking number that then shows up in the third-party carrier’s computer/tracking system. The buyer providing a tracking number does not rely on his word, mercy, or honesty. This is objective evidence that the seller did what he said he would do.

What proof do we have that a seller never receives a card? Checking the tracking number is a good start. However, we have all read stories on this site where individuals have claimed that they never received an item despite the third-party carrier’s system showing that it delivered the item.

Is this possible? Sure - computer glitches occur, and sometimes thieves raid mailboxes and porches. Let’s use this scenario – one where the carrier’s system shows it delivered the item, but the seller swears he never received it?

Under this scenario, the seller has absolute proof that he shipped the card. He has a tracking number that he provided the buyer two weeks earlier. Moreover, the tracking number shows the card went from the seller’s location to the buyer’s location. This is nice evidence. The seller also has evidence that the carrier delivered the card. The carrier’s tracking number shows it delivered it.

Now, what proof does the buyer have that he never received the card? His own word - That is it. So, despite all the seller’s objective evidence, the seller is now at the buyer’s pure mercy that he is telling the truth. Sellers have to provide evidence – i.e. shipping receipts, tracking numbers, etc. Buyers do not – we simply have to just take their word?

This is a ridiculous position to place someone in, and exactly why most states have passed laws determining that the the risk of loss passes from the seller to the buyer once he has placed the item into the third-party carrier’s hands, paid for the shipping expense, and emailed the buyer all the details – carrier identity, tracking number, estimated delivery date, etc. This is the rule makes sense.

To the insurance table beating crowd – under my hypothetical scenario, do you think this seller has any chance of collecting the insurance proceeds? Good luck. The third-party carrier will say our system shows we delivered the item. So, under my scenario, buying insurance did nothing, and the seller wasted his money. You might as well use it as toilet paper. How does a seller protect himself, even if he has insurance, if the carrier’s system shows it delivered the item?

I have a hard time placing a higher standard on the seller than the buyer. This isn’t a small buyer dealing with a large box store seller, who has the financial means to take the hit and wants to always keep the customer happy; this is private John Doe seller dealing with private James Doe buyer.

As I said before, this thread’s pro-buyer crowd has become accustomed to the policies and rules that large companies and financial institutes implement to protect the buyer. These rules are not laws, and do not apply to private individuals entering into private contracts. These companies have every incentive to protect buyers – they want future business. The customer is always right to them. This is why they have adopted rules that are oftentimes contrary to the actual laws that govern contracts and shipping.

So, what is a nice compromise for a collegial collecting community? I say the two parties split the loss – King Solomon wisdom.

Good points and very reasonable. Had the facts played out this way I'd be with you: if the USPS shows an item I sold as delivered any problem after that is a "you" problem not a "me" problem. As I understand the fact pattern, though, the item never reached the buyer: it got swallowed up in the postal black hole. Happens sometimes. I've had a few packages go down the rabbit hole myself. So what to do when neither side is at fault? Well, had they not agreed to cheat the devil by using PPFF, the answer is clear: the buyer gets a refund and the seller is left to whatever insurance (private or USPS) that he has to cover these situations. Since they made the bargain they made, however, they have to allocate the loss somehow, and as between the two of them it is a coin-toss under the circumstances.

[bobbyw8469]

I am just now getting to this and looking at the tracking. Yea, that one is pretty bad. Over a month with no update. To the OP....have you ran a trace on the package yet?? There is a Consumer Affairs number you can call with the Post Office......I would get the ball rolling with that.

[icurnmedic]

I'm confused - why would USPS offer insurance if they're not going to cover the losses if they lose the package?

They will offer you insurance, but in a claim you MUST prove the value of the items. That is objective value , not a , " This is a 1/1 and the last like one that sold was a 1/100 and sold for $1 so this one must be worth $15" sort of thing. And just because you value a $7k package and they only allowed you $5k in insurance(online max) they only reimbursed you $4600 because that's all you could prove was in the package. Ask me how I know, SMH.

To the original thread, Im in the sellers camp, I think. To me being on both ends at one point or another makes this very difficult. In the end a buyer should always pay the measly 3% . I mean $7.50 would have solved this whole situation.

[Fred]

I had a package sent to me UPS RED (next day air) I needed that package to take on an international trip the next day.

The package was tracked, I waited for it and when I checked the status it said "delivered". Totally blew my mind. Someone had to sign for it. It was shipped to my home address and I was home ALL day waiting for that package.

After I saw the "delivered" status I called UPS and asked them where it was delivered and they indicated my home address. Obviously it was delivered elsewhere and they (UPS) had NO CLUE where it was.

I was so pissed off that I FEDEX'd an overnight letter to the UPS corporate office in Atlanta letting them know how incompetent they were. I was hoping a big Fedex truck pulled up and delivered it. After returning from my trip I received several calls from the UPS corporate office and regional offices.

This was shipped with the highest priority, signature required by a main delivery service and they totally screwed it up.

The point being - even though a delivery service package indicates "delivered", it doesn't mean it was to the correct address.

Not too long ago I was sent a package from an auction house (signature required) and the postal delivery person was trying to drop it off and run without my signature. I couldn't believe it. I happened to hear the postal carrier at my door. When I went to the door I saw the condition of the package. I about crapped my pants because there a good chance the contents could have been damaged. There was nothing wrong with the packaging by the auction house. What was a miracle is that the content was not damaged.

The point being - the idiot postal carrier that tried to drop a damaged package and run. What if I wasn't home or what if someone decided to steal the package from my front porch? It would have been shown as delivered, albeit no signature.

I asked the postal carrier why they didn't ring the door bell and wait for me to sign. They said covid protocols meant no signature had to be taken.

I was pissed and went to the post office the next day and spoke with a carrier supervisor and told them that type of service is why people are doubting the USPS. I used to try and support the USPS, but no more, not after that. The next day, I had all of my financial statements transferred to electronic delivery.

I've had several successful BST transactions (as a buyer) using USPS since then and no issues.

It might be easy to see which side of the fence I stand on in this case. I've always asked for the total price (including S/H) with the package "delivered" to my address. No ambiguity there.

I trust the people on the BST (try to make sure the seller isn't someone new on the board) and believe that we all have the bet of intentions and nobody's trying to screw anybody. Sometimes bad luck just seems to hit when it's a collectible. One more thing - communication is a good thing - even though there may be a debate about responsibility - always communicate.




https://www.net54baseball.com/attachment.php?attachmentid=433184&stc=1&d=1609275658

[drcy]

I had an important overnight UPSP delivery that took 13 days.

It is a legitimate issue that a seller and pro-sellers have that the seller does everything right shipping-wise, but the shipping is entirely in someone else's hands. This is why it isn't a clear cut matter of team-buyer versus team-seller. My view is it's the buyer's responsibility to have the package delivered (unless otherwise stipulated in the sales description). However, this USPS issue is why those in the minority here arguing that it's not automatically all on the seller have legitimate points. One may disagree with their perspective, but they aren't objectively wrong.

It's difficult to say something is black-and-white either a or c, when there's a b in the equation as well. One may disagree, but a legitimate argument can be that the seller is not responsible for "act of God."

In ethical (and moral) questions, there are no objective answers. It usually involves community shared subjective feelings.

It's also true that, as most people on Net54 are collectors/buyers, there tends to be a rote pro-buyer bias, and buyers often want things to all be in their forever. I remember a Net54 insisting an old auction house LOA guarantee should be forever and for the appreciated (not original sell) value, even though the document clearly said three years and he wasn't the original buyer. I said that life would be easy and we'd all be rich if we could rewrite contracts any way we wanted twenty years later and when we weren't even a party in the contract.

Likely some will say "Well, the buyer should self-insure" yet complain to high heaven when a seller adds a 25 cent self-insurance charge on a sale or even charges actual shipping and handling cost. Many or even most sellers lose money on shipping charge, so it's a curious argument that they should somehow derive self-insurance money out of that loss.

Maybe a new hobby norm is buyers should expect a small additional fee to all sales, as USPS insurance is no good and buyers expect sellers to take all the risk/responsibility. If buyers don't agree to that then maybe it shouldn't after all be on the seller when USPS fucks up.

[facingthelake1188]

Audra and I have had a friendly customer-postal worker relationship for quite a while. I sold on eBay for many years and dealt with her on a practically weekly basis. I complement her monthly new hair styles regularly and she goes out of her way to be helpful and straight forward with me as best as she can be given her employee status. Some things she may be comfortable telling me that would be inappropriate for her to tell other customers, ie: Brian. This definitely falls into that category. I have tried to explain this to thru pm not wanting to drag this out here but you disturbed by the tern stolen. Would you have felt better if I simply wrote lost/stolen? If it would make you feel better I would be happy to change the thread title to lost/stolen but I can’t and don’t see what difference or change of circumstances it would make. We are still here...same situation, same no package, same request for refund and same: I would simply resubmit payment if this package somehow shows up in weeks or months from now. How many weeks/months do you feel would be appropriate before you issue a refund as per forum (ie: Leon’s) policy on his forum? It’s now been almost 2 months, so what...3 months? 4 months?
On a side note, I am truly glad to see your recovery is going well.

[RL]

lots of different opinions for sure...

ftc says...

Two federal laws — the Mail, Internet or Telephone Order Merchandise Rule and the Fair Credit Billing Act — offer protections and procedures so you don’t have to pay for merchandise you ordered but never got. But first things first: Contact the seller to try to resolve the problem and get a refund.

[facingthelake1188]

Ok, I wasn’t going to post this but my wife and I just finished watching It’s a Wonderful Life, AGAIN and I cannot help but share this story of a fellow member’s most generous offer during this joyous holiday season. He may wish to remain anonymous and is clearly modest in his reference to what he did but here it is.
After reading about my plight, this member made the most generous offer to refund me out of his own pocket, clearly wishing to spread some holiday joy. And told me to simply pay him back if the card eventually shows up. I was beyond shocked. I politely declined explaining that at almost 60, retired and collecting a generous pension, money is not an issue. For those who already know him, his identity will not be a surprise. But for those who do not, please realize that you have amongst your membership, the most generous person I have ever had the privilege of conversing with...thanks again Casey!! I wish you a long and Wonderful Life ��

[jchcollins]

The point being - even though a delivery service package indicates "delivered", it doesn't mean it was to the correct address.


Very true. Several different parties thought I was losing my mind, but last year the USPS marked a package "delivered" to my office, and when I went to the mailroom less than 10 minutes later, the employees there (who had safely tendered to me literally hundreds of packages in the previous 3 years....) had no clue what I was talking about. Someone there could have put on an disappearing act, sure - but if they did it would have been the first one, and I considered them totally trustworthy.

Long story short, eBay paid for my "delivered" card that was not, and did not ding the seller. But they made me fill out a police report to allege the package had been stolen since the USPS officially deemed it delivered. Not sure this was fair either, but eBay just wanted a police report number to give to their insurance company. After that, they were more than happy to pay me out under their "Buyer's Guarantee."

A rare occurrence, at least for me - but prices and fees be damned, this is why I still lean heavily on the eBay marketplace. I'm covered by both eBay and PayPal if the seller doesn't want to cooperate. And in the increasingly likely scenario that the United States Postal Service totally F's up...I'm covered by eBay there regardless as well.

[Seven]

For those who use Venmo, they offer zero buyer protection.

Very true, I wouldn't have an issue using it with some of the long withstanding members on here though.

[Usc1]

It sounds like you've given the seller ample time to respond to your PMs. If he has been active since you sent the PMs, theres really no excuse for not responding. If it were me, I'd file for PayPal refund. If you paid by Goods and Services, you'll get a refund. If paid by Friends and Family, you are shit out of luck and just learned a valuable lesson.

Actually not completely true. I think numerous sellers think that F&f protect them. It may from paypal, but if the buyer pays via a credit card it could be charged back. It has happened to me when I sold an item on a different forum. The guy was a scammer.

[birdman42]

I came across this today. I used to live in Laurel, and am very familiar with this business.

https://www.washingtonpost.com/lifestyle/2020/10/31/postmark-1979-package-laurel-leather/

Bill

[Eric72]

Serious question:

If I sell a card here on Net54, and USPS tracking shows it as being delivered, have I satisfied my obligations as a seller on this board?

For the sake of keeping it simple, let's assume a PayPal Goods & Services payment. The buyer enters their own shipping address for those transactions.

[Seven]

Serious question:

If I sell a card here on Net54, and USPS tracking shows it as being delivered, have I satisfied my obligations as a seller on this board?

For the sake of keeping it simple, let's assume a PayPal Goods & Services payment. The buyer enters their own shipping address for those transactions.

I think it's a gray area. While not on this board, I did make multiple posts about a case i ran into early in the year. I had a card misdelivered to the wrong address by the USPS and the Card was stolen, and then relisted in another state. I went through a lengthy process with the post office, they eventually confirmed that they committed the error and the end result was me forwarding that email to ebay, and myself eventually receiving the refund, from ebay.

Something like this does not happen often however. I think there is only so much a seller can do to a certain extent. If the card is extremely valuable, I would think overnight it, or if possible an in person pickup would probably be the best bet in terms of the transaction being conducted. Obviously this is not always possible, but at the moment, with the way things are going with the postal service, I would say it's the best option.

I'm not sure if this really answers your question though. Just my thoughts on the situation.

[Kaneen]

3 weeks ago I made a purchase from a very trusted member of a Facebook collector's group. We had great communication, and I paid immediately via PayPal "Goods and Services." She mailed my package the next day via USPS Priorty Mail in Cincinnati, OH. The package was estimated to arrive at my PO Box address in Lexington KY (approx. 80 miles from the seller's shipping point) 3 days later, on a Saturday.
...On Friday, tracking showed that my package had arrived at the Lexington regional distribution center (nearly always says that the day before I get a package.)
...On Saturday, I checked the tracking before going to the PO to pick it up. Tracking says "Arrived at USPS Regional Facility, Des Moines IA." Well that's an interesting side trip.
...On Sunday, tracking shows it arrived back at the Lexington Distribution Center.
...On Monday morning, the package arrived at the Versailles KY post office (about 20 miles from my PO).
...Later on Monday afternoon, 1:26 PM, the package arrived at my Post Office. PO Box mail at my location is always placed in boxes by 11am.
...At 5:12 PM on Monday afternoon, the tracking now shows that my package was "Delivered, In/At Mailbox"
...Packages too large for the PO Box are placed in a lobby locker with a key left in the PO Box (I get them like this all the time, no issues).
...It is now 2 weeks later and I still have never seen the package, nor the locker key.

To recap...Seller clearly did her part; USPS screwed the pooch; who knows what actually happened to the package? (Probably mis-delivered and not returned by the improper recipient, but who knows); tracking shows "delivered"; ...and I never got the package.

Even if there was such a thing as a Net54 BST "policy" (which Leon says in this thread he has no intentions of instituting), or commonly accepted "board etiquette" (which is clearly not commonly accepted by everyone), there would still be cases where it is just not simple and clear cut.

[Jim65]

Serious question:

If I sell a card here on Net54, and USPS tracking shows it as being delivered, have I satisfied my obligations as a seller on this board?

For the sake of keeping it simple, let's assume a PayPal Goods & Services payment. The buyer enters their own shipping address for those transactions.

I assume the general consensus would be the seller is off the hook.

As for PayPal, as long as seller shipped to the confirmed address and package shows as "delivered" or "available for pickup", they are clear. If the buyer pushed the issue with them, PayPal would probably reimburse the buyer themselves.

[philo98]

I had a package sent to me UPS RED (next day air) I needed that package to take on an international trip the next day.

The package was tracked, I waited for it and when I checked the status it said "delivered". Totally blew my mind. Someone had to sign for it. It was shipped to my home address and I was home ALL day waiting for that package.

After I saw the "delivered" status I called UPS and asked them where it was delivered and they indicated my home address. Obviously it was delivered elsewhere and they (UPS) had NO CLUE where it was.

I was so pissed off that I FEDEX'd an overnight letter to the UPS corporate office in Atlanta letting them know how incompetent they were. I was hoping a big Fedex truck pulled up and delivered it. After returning from my trip I received several calls from the UPS corporate office and regional offices.

This was shipped with the highest priority, signature required by a main delivery service and they totally screwed it up.

The point being - even though a delivery service package indicates "delivered", it doesn't mean it was to the correct address.



I had this happen with Fedex last month. They said it was delivered at the house but never was, it was even signed for. I had to go to 5 different Fedex places to get an answer and finally track down the package. The security guard at the last location told me this is occuring often now. They have too many new drivers due to the increase in online ordering, plus being designated a supplier of vaccines. I would imagine these instances will continue. For that, I took out my own 3rd party insurance to cover these kind of things over the next year or so.

[bobbyw8469]

For that, I took out my own 3rd party insurance to cover these kind of things over the next year or so.

Can you say who you used and give a rough idea what it costs?

[mrmopar]

This comment is not meant to describe or imply anything similar with the transaction in question that started this thread, but I simply wanted to toss this out there in response to your post.

I was scanning a lot of the posts in this thread, so this may have been discussed somewhere along the way and I just missed it. If not though, here is one way that a seller could scam a buyer, but still provide tracking.

The tracking number is provided once you buy the label, at least with the Ebay/USPS system. Clearly the seller has purchased postage in which to send the package. That number is now recorded and trackable.

The package enters the system and we watch it move from A to B. Finally, it arrives, and is scanned in as delivered. The seller has now fully delivered on their end of the deal.

The buyer opens the package, and to help drive my point home, even notices that there seems to be no alteration of the package. It is sealed, no rips, tears, resealing, tape, etc.

Here is where my biggest fear of seller fraud comes into play. The buyer reaches into the package for their prize and the package is EMPTY! There is now proof of tracking and delivery, but the seller has simply sent an empty envelope. I do not believe the buyer has any recourse at all at this point and it is a matter of his word against that of the seller.

We hate to think of it, both as a buyer or a seller and thankfully it seems to happen infrequently enough, but there are people out there that are just looking to screw others, period.

I will now share the largest scam I was party to, since I started buying collectibles online. Thankfully the number of bad transactions is a tiny blip on the overall count, otherwise I probably would have quit online trading/buying a long time ago.

This was on the Beckett boards, I think. It's been a very long time, maybe 25 years, so the details may be a little hazy. I am obviously still sore about this after all these years, as i am sharing the story once more. A collector was looking for Brett Favre cards. He was offering one of those certified Topps Willie Mays autographs that were pack inserted. I should have seen this coming, but I allowed myself to trust the guy and ignore some red flags.

I don't recall any of the negotiations, but ultimately ended up sending him an appropriate amount of Favre cards equalling the BV of the Mays. Red Flag #1, this guy is willing to trade me a Mays auto for a stack of $2-5 Favre cards that add up to the Mays value! Who does that?

He gets my Favre cards and is happy with them. The Mays card arrives to me, as promised, except it is a regular commemorative reprint, not the hand signed one. The card was his 1954 Topps card. Those have facsimile autographs on them to begin with, but an authentic Topps autographed card would have had a 2nd signature, the facsimile and a real signature too. I let him know it was not the autographed version and he claims that he had no clue, that his local shop even confirmed it was the autographed version, red flag #2. Anyone with eyes and a clue would not have mistaken this card for a signed one.

He continues to communicate with me, claiming he'll make it right. In the end, I agree to some vintage FB star cards equal to the value of the Favres, red flag #3 similar to the first flag, who trades vintage star cards for common new inserts?

Needless to say, I never got anymore cards from him. Eventually he just stoped responding, after giving me excuse after excuse as to why he had not sent anything to me yet. Did I mention, he claimed to be in a wheelchair at some point after the trade was made. Perhaps that was true, but it just seemed a little too convenient for the scenario. I traded about $150 worth of Favre inserts for a $4 reprint card. Not the end of the world and glad i can call this my worst, especially at today's values. I'd still take the hit, but the gap in value would have shrunk considerably bewteen the late 90s and now.

This thread’s pro-buyer crowd is placing sellers in an untenable position. A seller has no protection and is always at a buyer’s pure mercy/honesty. The issue boils down to proof. Let’s walk it through.

What proof do we have that a seller has ever shipped a card? Well, there is a tracking number. This is hard evidence that the seller upheld his end. Absent hacking, there is no way for a seller to fake a tracking number that then shows up in the third-party carrier’s computer/tracking system. The seller providing a tracking number does not rely on his word, mercy, or honesty. This is objective evidence that the seller did what he said he would do.

What proof do we have that a buyer never receives a card? Checking the tracking number is a good start. However, we have all read stories on this site and others' where buyers have claimed that they never received an item despite the third-party carrier’s system showing that it delivered the item.

Is this possible? Sure - computer glitches occur, and sometimes thieves raid mailboxes and porches. Let’s use this scenario – one where the carrier’s system shows it delivered the item, but the buyer swears he never received it?

Under this scenario, the seller has absolute proof that he shipped the card. He has a tracking number that he provided the buyer two weeks earlier. Moreover, the tracking number shows the card went from the seller’s location to the buyer’s location. This is nice evidence. The seller also has evidence that the carrier delivered the card. The carrier’s tracking number shows it allegedly delivered it.

Now, what proof does the buyer have that he never received the card? His own word - That is it. So, despite all the seller’s objective evidence, the seller is now at the buyer’s pure mercy that he is telling the truth. Sellers have to provide evidence – i.e. shipping receipts, tracking numbers, etc. Buyers do not – we simply have to just take their word?

This is a ridiculous position to place sellers in, and exactly why most states have passed laws determining that the the risk of loss passes from the seller to the buyer once he has placed the item into the third-party carrier’s hands, paid for the shipping expense, and emailed the buyer all the details – carrier identity, tracking number, estimated delivery date, etc. This rule is easy and makes sense.

To the insurance table beating crowd – under my hypothetical scenario, do you think the seller has any chance of collecting the insurance proceeds? Good luck. The third-party carrier will say our system shows we delivered the item. So, under my scenario, buying insurance will do nothing, and the seller wasted his money. You might as well use it as toilet paper. How does a seller protect himself, even if he has insurance, if the carrier’s system shows it delivered the item?

I have a hard time placing a higher standard on a private seller than a private buyer. This isn’t a small buyer dealing with a large, sophisticated, international, multi-billion dollar box store seller, who has the financial means to take the hit and wants to always keep the customer happy; this is private citizen John Doe seller dealing with private citizen James Doe buyer.

As I said before, this thread’s pro-buyer crowd has become accustomed to the policies and rules that large companies and financial institutes implement to protect the buyer. These rules are not laws, and do not apply to private individuals entering into private contracts. These companies have every incentive to protect buyers – they want future business. The customer is always right to them. This is why they have adopted rules that are oftentimes contrary to the actual laws that govern contracts and shipping.

Parties are free to negotiate a deal's terms. if a buyer wants protection then demand and negotiate it during the deal. Just know that the seller is probably not going to internalize this protection's added expense and may increase the deal's total price. Not using these protections benefits both parties. It allows the seller to not provide a refund if the buyer claims the card was never delivered. On the flip side, it allows the buyer to purchase a card for a cheaper price. Again, seller's don't simply internalize the added protection's cost, they pass it along to the seller and adjust the card's final price.

So, what is a nice compromise for a collegial collecting community? I say the two parties split the loss – King Solomon wisdom.

[icurnmedic]

The package enters the system and we watch it move from A to B. Finally, it arrives, and is scanned in as delivered. The seller has now fully delivered on their end of the deal.

The buyer opens the package, and to help drive my point home, even notices that there seems to be no alteration of the package. It is sealed, no rips, tears, resealing, tape, etc.

Here is where my biggest fear of seller fraud comes into play. The buyer reaches into the package for their prize and the package is EMPTY! There is now proof of tracking and delivery, but the seller has simply sent an empty envelope. I do not believe the buyer has any recourse at all at this point and it is a matter of his word against that of the now.

Not a new trick. Happened to me almost 15 years ago on an eBay purchase of a Gretzky rc. Before eBay was pro buyer. I can’t stand a thief!

[buymycards]

I had this happen with Fedex last month. They said it was delivered at the house but never was, it was even signed for. I had to go to 5 different Fedex places to get an answer and finally track down the package. The security guard at the last location told me this is occuring often now. They have too many new drivers due to the increase in online ordering, plus being designated a supplier of vaccines. I would imagine these instances will continue. For that, I took out my own 3rd party insurance to cover these kind of things over the next year or so.

As a former Postmaster who tracked down many packages, I can tell you that if you think that a 'delivered" package was not delivered to your address, your Postmaster can tell you, within 2-3 minutes, where the package was actually delivered. There were many times when I looked at the GPS tracking, and I told my customer to look on their deck, or in the garage, or on their back porch, because the GPS shows, within a few inches, where the package and the carrier was when the "delivered" scan was made. Of course, there were many other times when I discovered that the package was delivered to 406 Oak St. rather than 406 Walnut St., or that the package was delivered to a neighbor.

[jchcollins]

There were many times when I looked at the GPS tracking, and I told my customer to look on their deck, or in the garage, or on their back porch, because the GPS shows, within a few inches, where the package and the carrier was when the "delivered" scan was made.

This is one of the reasons I quit having packages delivered to my office. With the one that was "delivered" last year, but nobody had it - the USPS claimed there was no GPS scan detectable because they were inside our loading dock and behind a bunch of concrete and thick walls. I haven't had to challenge it since, but would assume my local carrier does not have that problem out on the street next to my mailbox.

[Jim65]

As a former Postmaster who tracked down many packages, I can tell you that if you think that a 'delivered" package was not delivered to your address, your Postmaster can tell you, within 2-3 minutes, where the package was actually delivered. There were many times when I looked at the GPS tracking, and I told my customer to look on their deck, or in the garage, or on their back porch, because the GPS shows, within a few inches, where the package and the carrier was when the "delivered" scan was made. Of course, there were many other times when I discovered that the package was delivered to 406 Oak St. rather than 406 Walnut St., or that the package was delivered to a neighbor.

Problem is so many Postal employees are too lazy to do this or they play dumb when you ask.

[sb1]

I have had only two different PO boxes in over 30 years. At each PO, nearly every clerk new me and each Postmaster also knew me due to my daily drop-offs and pickups. They went to great lengths whenever there was a problem, to find the item or get it to me.(like a 52 mantle that Fedex dropped off at the wrong house that got taken to the PO by the elderly recipient and the lady at the PO new to contact me).. Even now I sometimes go in and ask for some help on one stuck in the system and they get me the internal detailed report.

On the two occasions that I had postal insurance claims back in the old days, each was promptly paid without delay.

They hold my packages and even call me when I have several registered or other express items so that I can come get them.

It certainly doesn't hurt to develop and maintain a rapport with those handling your valuable items....

[facingthelake1188]

Hi Rick,
So the postal service can actually track packages via GPS? Is that on all packages or does a package have to be shipped priority or by another delivery method? What is the GPS attached to, the label with the scan bar code? Thx for this info.
Larry

As a former Postmaster who tracked down many packages, I can tell you that if you think that a 'delivered" package was not delivered to your address, your Postmaster can tell you, within 2-3 minutes, where the package was actually delivered. There were many times when I looked at the GPS tracking, and I told my customer to look on their deck, or in the garage, or on their back porch, because the GPS shows, within a few inches, where the package and the carrier was when the "delivered" scan was made. Of course, there were many other times when I discovered that the package was delivered to 406 Oak St. rather than 406 Walnut St., or that the package was delivered to a neighbor.

[Bigdaddy]

I would assume the GPS tracker is part of their hand held scanner. Wherever that scanner is when it scans the barcode and marks the package as 'delivered', then that is the GPS location.

[Jim65]

I would assume the GPS tracker is part of their hand held scanner. Wherever that scanner is when it scans the barcode and marks the package as 'delivered', then that is the GPS location.

My old mail carrier would scan her packages at the truck before she put them in the bag. So its not foolproof.

[buymycards]

Hi Rick,
So the postal service can actually track packages via GPS? Is that on all packages or does a package have to be shipped priority or by another delivery method? What is the GPS attached to, the label with the scan bar code? Thx for this info.
Larry

All packages that have a bar-code can be tracked. First Class, Priority, Express, Registered, Media Mail, Parcel Post. The carrier's scanner scans the barcode on the shipping label, and immediately uploads the info into the tracking system. The information is available to the Postmaster within seconds of delivery and it only takes the Postmaster or Supervisor a couple of minutes to pull up a Google Map that shows exactly where the delivery scan was performed. This info isn't available to most clerks and carriers - just management employees.

The problem is that some carriers don't want to carry their scanner around the route, so they scan several packages while they are inside their vehicle, which is against the rules and doesn't provide useful tracking data. I always spot checked the scans my carriers were making to make sure they were not making the delivery scans until they were actually putting the package in the mailbox. If a customer had a problem, and the carrier didn't perform the scan properly, I would have the customer come to the Post Office so the carrier could explain why he didn't do his job properly.

When used properly, the info on Google Maps will show, within a few inches, exactly where the delivery scan was performed.

As far as what James said about some employees being too lazy to provide this information, he is correct. When I was still working, several times a day I would receive an email or a phone call from neighboring Post Offices asking me to look up the GPS information for them. I didn't mind because I loved trying to track packages for customers.

[icollectDCsports]

The problem is that some carriers don't want to carry their scanner around the route, so they scan several packages while they are inside their vehicle, which is against the rules and doesn't provide useful tracking data.

On several occasions, I've received notifications that USPS deliveries were made to me, often very late in the day, when that for sure wasn't the case, but with the items actually being delivered the next day. I assume carriers are just scanning multiple items they plan on delivering but don't want to actually spend the time scanning upon each delivery. Glad the items have all arrived, so far, in such cases but of course, until I do get them, I worry that they've been mis-delivered or stolen. Very frustrating.

[ASF123]

On several occasions, I've received notifications that USPS deliveries were made to me, often very late in the day, when that for sure wasn't the case, but with the items actually being delivered the next day. I assume carriers are just scanning multiple items they plan on delivering but don't want to actually spend the time scanning upon each delivery. Glad the items have all arrived, so far, in such cases but of course, until I do get them, I worry that they've been mis-delivered or stolen. Very frustrating.Seconded - I’ve had the exact same experience, also multiple times (in the last six weeks). The false “delivered” scans are always recorded as being about 5 minutes before the official close of the day they had been scanned as out for delivery, but I get the alerts at around 4 am, so I assume it has something to do with gaming the scanning system to avoid a negative mark on a delivery record or something.

[bobbyw8469]

Your tracking number just got a hit....you have movement!!!!!!

[hammertime]

Patience is a virtue.

(one I often don't possess myself, but nonetheless)

[bobbyw8469]

Due to be delivered today!!! Did the seller already refund??? Glad to see your item has been relocated.

[parkplace33]

I am glad this story will (hopefully) have a good ending.

[facingthelake1188]

Update... I awoke today to great news...the package is “out for delivery”. The seller never did refund my payment. Thanks to all for your comments and input. Wishing everyone a happy and healthy New Year!

[wondo]

Patience is a virtue.

[sando69]

yes, and so are tolerance, understanding and forgiveness.

[Aquarian Sports Cards]

Not so stolen after all...

[OldOriole]

Not so stolen after all...

Correct.

I wonder if the OP will go back to the branch manager and ask the "lovely woman" why she told him the were "clearly stolen".

Holidays + Pandemic = Have a little more patience than normal.

[Snapolit1]

I had two panicked eBay buyers in last two weeks, both sure their cards had been stolen because tracking wasn't updated for a while and delivery was crawling. They were 100% sure of theft. I apparently was the first person to alert them to the chaos in USPS. Still they were sure it was theft. It wasn't; both showed up late. The real kicker was one of them gave me a neutral rating on eBay after I politely walked him off the ledge of his building numerous times. Even sent him newspapers articles about the troubles in PA where he lived. Comment was something "It wasn't the sellers fault but it took me 16 days to get this delivered." Whatever. Not losing sleep over the neutral but that's what we used to call in the old days "a real dick move."

[bobbyw8469]

I had two panicked eBay buyers in last two weeks, both sure their cards had been stolen because tracking wasn't updated for a while and delivery was crawling. They were 100% sure of theft. I apparently was the first person to alert them to the chaos in USPS. Still they were sure it was theft. It wasn't; both showed up late. The real kicker was one of them gave me a neutral rating on eBay after I politely walked him off the ledge of his building numerous times. Even sent him newspapers articles about the troubles in PA where he lived. Comment was something "It wasn't the sellers fault but it took me 16 days to get this delivered." Whatever. Not losing sleep over the neutral but that's what we used to call in the old days "a real dick move"

I just got a card today I bought from the Net54 BST board. It was shipped on Nov.30th. I forgot about it until it showed up. Thankfully the seller was honest and shipped it.

[Aquarian Sports Cards]

I had someone file a paypal dispute and then, even after we talked (he had the tracking info) as soon as he could he escalated it to a claim. Only one of those so far out of the hundreds of end of year packages we sent, but still frustrating.

[bobbyw8469]

I had someone file a paypal dispute and then, even after we talked (he had the tracking info) as soon as he could he escalated it to a claim. Only one of those so far out of the hundreds of end of year packages we sent, but still frustrating.

And is there package still lost or did it turn up?? I bet that is a nightmare to have to go through.

[Aquarian Sports Cards]

It was delivered and he lost the claim. In my case it's even worse because the consignor has already been paid, so now I would be returning money that I don't even have anymore!

[bigfish]

Update... I awoke today to great news...the package is “out for delivery”. The seller never did refund my payment. Thanks to all for your comments and input. Wishing everyone a happy and healthy New Year!


When you get you’re package I expect you to not apologize to the sender for this fairly dramatic presentation.

I expect you to bash him for not responding to you fast enough or at all.... during a global pandemic with the USPS short staffed experiencing extra volume during the holidays.

[Jim65]

When you get you’re package I expect you to not apologize to the sender for this fairly dramatic presentation.

I expect you to bash him for not responding to you fast enough or at all.... during a global pandemic with the USPS short staffed experiencing extra volume during the holidays.

So his package was lost in the USPS system for over 30 days, he emailed the seller more than once and the seller ignored his emails and you think he doesn't have a legitimate beef?

[bigfish]

You can defend you’re friend all you want. He didn’t respond. I get it. The seller doesn’t have anymore information than the buyer. The usps portal had the info. Both parties had access to the same information. The seller doesn’t have magic bottle.

Patience was needed based upon the circumstances and any reasonable person would recognize that.

Not to pile on... the seller was recovering from
Brain surgery.

The fact that you and the buyer pile on is frankly disturbing.

[Snapolit1]

I just got a card today I bought from the Net54 BST board. It was shipped on Nov.30th. I forgot about it until it showed up. Thankfully the seller was honest and shipped it.

Geez, that's nuts.

[Snapolit1]

I can't blame people for getting nervous. I mailed maybe $2,000 worth of cards to someone in a small priority mail box and when it fell off the radar for 2 weeks I was apoplectic. It is a bit terrifying. And for heaven's sake don't blame the seller.

[Brian Van Horn]

Proper action for an item not stolen from the US Postal Service is first for the Post Office to check its system. At 7:10 p.m. EST time tonight, Audra tried calling me from the Congra, NY post office. I did not recognize the phone number because it isn't a regular phone number that I use, i.e. 845-268-8742. At 7:11 p.m. EST, the call was received again and wondering if this was a SPAM call, I coughed into the line. Audra identified herself much to my delight given this matter and indicated that item 9500115895080326668817 was delivered at 3:30 p.m. EST today to the address. My notification from the customer? Zip.

Here's the page from the USPS:

https://tools.usps.com/go/TrackConfirmAction?qtc_tLabels1=950011589508032666 8817

No theft.

[jayshum]

You can defend you’re friend all you want. He didn’t respond. I get it. The seller doesn’t have anymore information than the buyer. The usps portal had the info. Both parties had access to the same information. The seller doesn’t have magic bottle.

Patience was needed based upon the circumstances and any reasonable person would recognize that.

Not to pile on... the seller was recovering from
Brain surgery.

The fact that you and the buyer pile on is frankly disturbing.

You left out that the seller was still posting on the board while not responding to the buyer trying to contact him and that the buyer had been told by someone at the USPS (apparently incorrectly) that the package had been stolen based on what she could tell. Yes, the seller had health issues, but the buyer was not aware of that when he tried to contact him, and if the seller was able to keep posting here, a simple response to the buyer would have likely prevented this thread from ever having been started.

[irishdenny]

BS, there are many of us on this forum that guarantee the card(s) they sell will be delivered or a refund will be given.

'me!'

*PRIORITY MAIL FULLY INSURED AND/OR YOUR MONEY BACK ~

*EVEN IF YOU DON'T LIKE THE CARD!

i've had maybe 2 bad transactions in the 21 years i've been here...
one included a $15 lost check in the Mail... from when i was working in Iraq.

The other? i'm sure someone might inform me of the tragedy...
& "i'd Still Make it Right Today!"

Now... When Brian(Hey there Brian, my prayers are with You Sir!) has Paid Back ToppsAholic... i'm Sorry, what was this guys name AGaiN!?!?

Anyways... when the Card does Show up, Will He Return Brian's Money & Keep the Card? Return the Card(because it has this Stinky Stuff on it!) & Keep the Money? Or!?!?

"Side Bar Your Honor"... *Where is Your Compassion Dude ~ ?

Send me Your Paypal Address and i'll pay You back myself ~ "Truly!"

[Jim65]

You can defend you’re friend all you want. He didn’t respond. I get it. The seller doesn’t have anymore information than the buyer. The usps portal had the info. Both parties had access to the same information. The seller doesn’t have magic bottle.

Patience was needed based upon the circumstances and any reasonable person would recognize that.

Not to pile on... the seller was recovering from
Brain surgery.

The fact that you and the buyer pile on is frankly disturbing.

First off, I don't know the OP.

Second, the seller didn't tell the buyer he was ill, I guess he supposed to be a mind reader?

I'll say it again, if the seller had answered one email saying "I'm sorry its delayed, I'm ill at the moment. I'll look into it" This whole thing could've been avoided.

I'm not saying Brian is looking to scam anyone but I have been ripped off before and the first red flag is the seller ghosts you. It wasn't unreasonable that the buyer was worried.

[facingthelake1188]

Check your pm Brian.

Proper action for an item not stolen from the US Postal Service is first for the Post Office to check its system. At 7:10 p.m. EST time tonight, Audra tried calling me from the Congra, NY post office. I did not recognize the phone number because it isn't a regular phone number that I use, i.e. 845-268-8742. At 7:11 p.m. EST, the call was received again and wondering if this was a SPAM call, I coughed into the line. Audra identified herself much to my delight given this matter and indicated that item 9500115895080326668817 was delivered at 3:30 p.m. EST today to the address. My notification from the customer? Zip.

Here's the page from the USPS:

https://tools.usps.com/go/TrackConfirmAction?qtc_tLabels1=950011589508032666 8817

No theft.

[Brian Van Horn]

Thank you, Larry. All good.

[facingthelake1188]

Thanks for responding to my pm Brian! So everyone knows, we’re all good.