BBCX wrapping and what it exactly represents..

[55koufax]

Not a huge collector of unopened material, however, I am curious if it is well known what exactly a Steve Hart BBCX wrapper on a box exactly represents...

I would naturally assume it means the product is authentic and unsearched.

Is this correct?

[Jason19th]

You are correct. BCE does an excellent job of certifying that the packs are authentic and not searched. What is important however that BCE cannot and doesn’t claim to be making any statement about the condition of the cards in the pack. There is a YouTube channel called Jabs Family were they shop for cards and open wax (with slots sold to buyers prior to opening). He recently bought a box of 1972 Opechee (sp?). At some point the box must have been in heat or humidity and the gum pretty much killed most of the cards. The YouTuber freaked out and started talking about how disappointed he was with BCE and went on about how he should get some sort of refund. My pint to all of this is BCE is not able to account for what’s in the box other then to say it’s authentic and unsearched. They cannot know about the coalition or the condition of the cards and cannot be expected to be able to do so. When you open wax it’s st your risk

[55koufax]

You are correct. BCE does an excellent job of certifying that the packs are authentic and not searched. My pint to all of this is BCE is not able to account for what’s in the box other then to say it’s authentic and unsearched. They cannot know about the coalition or the condition of the cards and cannot be expected to be able to do so. When you open wax it’s st your risk

Thank you for your insight.

So I knew all the above. Here is my story of disappointment. Won a lot of (4) BBCX wrapped and authenticated boxes of what I thought to be unopened and unsearched '89 Score FB sets - not packs. I recently opened two diff of the same product of which I had stored in my attic for 30+ years. Hence, I know how this set was packaged and collated within the box. First issue (with Score) is this product was never factory sealed in any way. Of the two of my own I opened, the majority of the contents were well centered and will yield a high rate of PSA Gem Mt 10s. This is in line with a diff factory set box I had purchased in '89 and opened and had several keys graded last year. My only disappointment was the B Sanders came back 9. Virtually every other key and some of the desirable stars commons delivered 10s at almost a 70% clip. The other two I owned since '89 appear that they will deliver much of the same 10 rate.

Now, comes the REA part of this. I opened the 1st REA BBCX box and the contents were not in sync and collated like my others. Huh? Close examination of the 8 HOF RCs and several other hi $$ cards shows nothing but OCs and poorly ctr'd cards that will maybe yield 7 or 8 if PSA grades with NQ. Not only that, NONE of the 8 diff HOF RCs were even close to being placed in proper sequence like my other three boxes I had opened previously. As a matter of fact, one of them was not even there. Missing was a Thurman Thomas rc. Not even in the box! To be certain this box was not just some freaky anomaly I opened one more REA BBCX wrapped box.....

Virtually identical results. Cards totally out of sequence with all keys OC or very poorly ctr'd. This time all 8 diff HOF RCs were at least there (totally out of factory collation), however, other keys were missing! Obviously, contents cherry picked and NOT UNSEARCHED.

I stopped and did not open the other two sets, as I am awaiting to hear back from Brian at REA as to how he wants to handle this.

I thought of contacting Steve Hart, but feel it best to go to my source - REA first. Generally Brian is fair and I believe he will take care of this (and likely give Steve some "feedback" about all this).

[Orioles1954]

Your beef should be with BBCE.

[Jason19th]

Interesting

When you say that score was never factory sealed do you mean that there was never even any adhesive or tape keeping the box closed. If that’s the case I don’t see how you could possible certify something as unsearched

[Yastrzemski Sports]

Thank you for your insight.

So I knew all the above. Here is my story of disappointment. Won a lot of (4) BBCX wrapped and authenticated boxes of what I thought to be unopened and unsearched '89 Score FB sets - not packs. I recently opened two diff of the same product of which I had stored in my attic for 30+ years. Hence, I know how this set was packaged and collated within the box. First issue (with Score) is this product was never factory sealed in any way. Of the two of my own I opened, the majority of the contents were well centered and will yield a high rate of PSA Gem Mt 10s. This is in line with a diff factory set box I had purchased in '89 and opened and had several keys graded last year. My only disappointment was the B Sanders came back 9. Virtually every other key and some of the desirable stars commons delivered 10s at almost a 70% clip. The other two I owned since '89 appear that they will deliver much of the same 10 rate.

Now, comes the REA part of this. I opened the 1st REA BBCX box and the contents were not in sync and collated like my others. Huh? Close examination of the 8 HOF RCs and several other hi $$ cards shows nothing but OCs and poorly ctr'd cards that will maybe yield 7 or 8 if PSA grades with NQ. Not only that, NONE of the 8 diff HOF RCs were even close to being placed in proper sequence like my other three boxes I had opened previously. As a matter of fact, one of them was not even there. Missing was a Thurman Thomas rc. Not even in the box! To be certain this box was not just some freaky anomaly I opened one more REA BBCX wrapped box.....

Virtually identical results. Cards totally out of sequence with all keys OC or very poorly ctr'd. This time all 8 diff HOF RCs were at least there (totally out of factory collation), however, other keys were missing! Obviously, contents cherry picked and NOT UNSEARCHED.

I stopped and did not open the other two sets, as I am awaiting to hear back from Brian at REA as to how he wants to handle this.

I thought of contacting Steve Hart, but feel it best to go to my source - REA first. Generally Brian is fair and I believe he will take care of this (and likely give Steve some "feedback" about all this).

That is very odd. According to their site they only deal in sealed packs. I have seen them do vending boxes and sets but only when they come from a sealed case.

[Yastrzemski Sports]

Not a huge collector of unopened material, however, I am curious if it is well known what exactly a Steve Hart BBCX wrapper on a box exactly represents...

I would naturally assume it means the product is authentic and unsearched.

Is this correct?

There are 2 types of authentication. Their regular wrapper means the box is complete and all packs are factory sealed. The From A Sealed Case (FASC) means that they received the original intact case of cards and they guarantee they are exactly as you would have gotten from the company when they were released. Boxes that don’t have FASC have all sealed packs but they can come from different boxes. There’s no way to tell if all of the packs in a 1983 Topps box are original to that box. Hope that helps.

[JollyElm]

Did you happen to record yourself opening up the packages (to show there was no subterfuge on your end)? Hope so.

[55koufax]

Did you happen to record yourself opening up the packages (to show there was no subterfuge on your end

No I did not film myself, nor should I ever think this step be a necessity. I still have two BBCX wrapped and unopened boxes ready for the film shoot!

[Jason19th]

Wow just looked at eBay- had no idea how expensive of an item these sets are

[55koufax]

There are 2 types of authentication. Their regular wrapper means the box is complete and all packs are factory sealed. The From A Sealed Case (FASC) means that they received the original intact case of cards and they guarantee they are exactly as you would have gotten from the company when they were released. Boxes that don’t have FASC have all sealed packs but they can come from different boxes. There’s no way to tell if all of the packs in a 1983 Topps box are original to that box. Hope that helps.

Yes, in the past 24 hours I have come to learn this.....that said, why doesn't Steve Hart disclose this (without expecting one to research it) on the label? Until yesterday, I had no idea he did TWO diff types of authentication, and I have bought and consigned stuff with him. He has even been to my house.

It would be easy to disclose and differentiate the two, and even put a disclaimer of sorts on the "non-guar" aspect of it.

The whole thing smells and the big picture is in this industry, virtually nobody can be trusted. Hard to believe there are scumbags who would cherry-pick cards, replace them sloppily, then somehow, at some point, somebody (REA?) would authenticate in a BBCX wrapper.

[55koufax]

Wow just looked at eBay- had no idea how expensive of an item these sets are

I actually paid a premium for these 4 sets from REA, because they were BBCX wrapped and authenticated. They could have been had off eBay for much less - unwrapped.

In the latter half of 2020, the demand and prices have taken off, as many commons in PSA 10 going for $40+. Of course all the keys got a large uptick in $$$ during 2020. My dream of a 330 card complete set in PSA 10 is on the backburner...

[ocjack]

I was speaking with Reed at Dacardworld about selling some cases and boxes. I told him I had a 1991 Topps Archive that I bought in 1991 that was shrink-wrapped and a 1984 Donruss Wax that was also shrink-wrapped.

Reed told me that neither box (I knew the Donruss was after-market) was sold with original shrink-wrapping and he would have to break the wrap and then check each pack to determine if they were unopened.

I don't see how anyone could guarantee a box of individual cards from an unsealed box, unless they saw the box taken from a sealed case. But, that being the case, it should have had the "fasc" label.

Can't wait to hear the responses.

[Hxcmilkshake]

Yes, in the past 24 hours I have come to learn this.....that said, why doesn't Steve Hart disclose this (without expecting one to research it) on the label? Until yesterday, I had no idea he did TWO diff types of authentication, and I have bought and consigned stuff with him. He has even been to my house.



It would be easy to disclose and differentiate the two, and even put a disclaimer of sorts on the "non-guar" aspect of it.



The whole thing smells and the big picture is in this industry, virtually nobody can be trusted. Hard to believe there are scumbags who would cherry-pick cards, replace them sloppily, then somehow, at some point, somebody (REA?) would authenticate in a BBCX wrapper.I knew a dealer who would search 1987 Donruss for Greg Swindell rookies..so if it can be searched it likely was. Probably a cynical view but at today's prices I just don't have the confidence as a buyer.

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[55koufax]

Brian at REA got back to me last pm, with a full apology, and sent a call tag - 100% refunded - nothing in question. He did say they arrived BBCX wrapped from consignor.

[D. Bergin]

I knew a dealer who would search 1987 Donruss for Greg Swindell rookies..so if it can be searched it likely was. Probably a cynical view but at today's prices I just don't have the confidence as a buyer.

Sent from my SM-G981U using Tapatalk

I remember back in the mid to late 80's doing card shows in CT, you would have won the lottery if you could find a 1984 Topps Rack pack at a dealers table that still had a Don Mattingly rookie in it.

They were so easily searched and the collations cracked, unless you saw it come straight out of a sealed case, somebody likely had already snagged all the packs with Mattingly in it.

There was one particularly unethical dealer who had cases and cases of 1984 Topps wax and rack packs, but you could spend a week opening packs from him, and you'd never pull a Mattingly or Strawberry from one of his boxes.

[GrayGhost]

I remember back in the mid to late 80's doing card shows in CT, you would have won the lottery if you could find a 1984 Topps Rack pack at a dealers table that still had a Don Mattingly rookie in it.

They were so easily searched and the collations cracked, unless you saw it come straight out of a sealed case, somebody likely had already snagged all the packs with Mattingly in it.

There was one particularly unethical dealer who had cases and cases of 1984 Topps wax and rack packs, but you could spend a week opening packs from him, and you'd never pull a Mattingly or Strawberry from one of his boxes.

Louie the crook. He was as bad with 85 topps if you remember

[swarmee]

Brian at REA got back to me last pm, with a full apology, and sent a call tag - 100% refunded - nothing in question. He did say they arrived BBCX wrapped from consignor.
Edit: read your early posts wrong and incorrectly lambasted you. Sorry about that.

[bobbyw8469]

Brian at REA got back to me last pm, with a full apology, and sent a call tag - 100% refunded - nothing in question. He did say they arrived BBCX wrapped from consignor.

That's good on them. More than likely the buyer thought it was legit, and BBCX definitely thought it was good.

[ALBB]

Oh yea, stuff from the early -mid 80s... I recall guys figuring out the sequence,
I remember in a card shop with guy saying..about 85 T...if you see Joe. xxx . in the pack..the next card is Eric Davis rookie...and it was

[Aquarian Sports Cards]

Next time, do better research, IMO. You got much more than you should have expected. If you didn't realize a BBCE wrapped box could be a Frankenstein box of loose packs assembled, then you should learn more before purchasing and opening them.
REA did more than enough for you, and IMO, probably set a bad precedent. But hey, that's what whining on message boards gets you nowadays.

Except these were sets, not wax boxes.

[swarmee]

Except these were sets, not wax boxes.
Ah, didn't see that. I am not sure how Steve certifies sets as unopened without them coming from a sealed case. Cards are rarely in order. My apologies to the OP.

[Directly]

Around a month or so ago a collector I have known for years called me wanting to sell his 3 or 4 boxes 89 score FB and 17 or so factory sets. He has owned the product since 1989. I thought his asking price was high, but after reading this discussion and again revisiting some recent sales, comparing last month prices, this product has really escalated in price ! (the factory sets I bought in 1989 were shrink wrapped ??)

[55koufax]

Ah, didn't see that. I am not sure how Steve certifies sets as unopened without them coming from a sealed case. Cards are rarely in order. My apologies to the OP.

Lots of misunderstanding here.....and I thought it was straightforward. Apparently Brian @ REA thought it open and shut too!

Even Steve Hart makes errors sometimes.

Always have to keep the guard up in this card collecting world.

[BRoberts]

I think you should consider yourself lucky this happened with REA. Not sure how many auction houses would have considered this as open and shut as you think it is.

[Johnny630]

Most already know this but if you don’t the big Lesson to Be Learned Here is that Brian From REA is, has, and will always do the right thing for the collector and Hobby.

[Bcwcardz]

I remember back in the mid to late 80's doing card shows in CT, you would have won the lottery if you could find a 1984 Topps Rack pack at a dealers table that still had a Don Mattingly rookie in it.

They were so easily searched and the collations cracked, unless you saw it come straight out of a sealed case, somebody likely had already snagged all the packs with Mattingly in it.

There was one particularly unethical dealer who had cases and cases of 1984 Topps wax and rack packs, but you could spend a week opening packs from him, and you'd never pull a Mattingly or Strawberry from one of his boxes.


I believe it because I bought some 84 racks in the late 90s. I bought 6. Guess what? 3 Mattinglys and 2 Straws. It wasn’t a coincidence, whoever sold those to the guy I got them from probably knew.


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[dani0100]

It seems that there are still some things that are misunderstood about BBCE. Here's what I know from my experience in collecting 80's unopened material:

1) For items like factory sets or vending boxes, BBCE will not wrap items unless they are FASC and come directly from a sealed outer case that BBCE examines, determines to be unopened, and then opens. It's not clear to me from the thread here whether the OP is saying he got a factory set that was wrapped but not marked FASC, but such a thing should not exist and I think BBCE would buy such a thing back.

2) In the case that a FASC wrapped box turns out to be bad, it is possible that BBCE mistakenly believed that a case it opened was sealed. Crazier things have happened, but I believe this is a fairly rare occurrence since most cases are pretty easy to tell if they've been opened, tampered with, and resealed. Again, I think if this happened and there were video evidence of it, BBCE would happily refund.

It doesn't seem like there are many unopened wax collectors in here since mostly that's a hobby that pertains to the late 70s and 80s, but I can tell you that among serious collectors of this stuff, Steve Hart and BBCE have a very sterling reputation, and for good reason. Steve is extremely responsive in communicating, always willing to go above and beyond, and generally does work that's about 100% more reliable than most "professional" authenticators in the hobby.

[Pack The Ripper]

It seems that there are still some things that are misunderstood about BBCE. Here's what I know from my experience in collecting 80's unopened material:

1) For items like factory sets or vending boxes, BBCE will not wrap items unless they are FASC and come directly from a sealed outer case that BBCE examines, determines to be unopened, and then opens. It's not clear to me from the thread here whether the OP is saying he got a factory set that was wrapped but not marked FASC, but such a thing should not exist and I think BBCE would buy such a thing back.

2) In the case that a FASC wrapped box turns out to be bad, it is possible that BBCE mistakenly believed that a case it opened was sealed. Crazier things have happened, but I believe this is a fairly rare occurrence since most cases are pretty easy to tell if they've been opened, tampered with, and resealed. Again, I think if this happened and there were video evidence of it, BBCE would happily refund.

It doesn't seem like there are many unopened wax collectors in here since mostly that's a hobby that pertains to the late 70s and 80s, but I can tell you that among serious collectors of this stuff, Steve Hart and BBCE have a very sterling reputation, and for good reason. Steve is extremely responsive in communicating, always willing to go above and beyond, and generally does work that's about 100% more reliable than most "professional" authenticators in the hobby.

Hey fellow unopened wax collector! That makes two of us. :)

Seriously though, I've been collecting unopened wax for a long time and BBCE wrap is a must for anything of real value. Sports and non-sports alike, I won't touch anything over 100 bucks without authentication. Almost all of my collection is BBCE wrapped.

[Johnny630]

Me too ! All factory sealed from a case wrapped 6 Box 1985 Topps Rack
FASC BBCE

[dragonwagon9080]

I do not like how BBCE handles Tiffany sets. They will shrink wrap the plain outer box, instead of the Tiffany box. Now I can’t see all the color and beauty of the set box design or the individual set # on the bottom. All I see is a plain boring cardboard box. I get it if they did this for the 1989 set bc it is already shrink wrapped, but the rest... https://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20210101/1f4a724dd4b264ed655a930847424f2b.jpg


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[doug.goodman]

Hey fellow unopened wax collector! That makes two of us. :)

Seriously though, I've been collecting unopened wax for a long time and BBCE wrap is a must for anything of real value. Sports and non-sports alike, I won't touch anything over 100 bucks without authentication. Almost all of my collection is BBCE wrapped.

And this thread proves that just about anything could be inside those boxes.

[Pack The Ripper]

And this thread proves that just about anything could be inside those boxes.

You're right. It's a dangerous hobby and no niche is 100% safe. Whether it's a $10 box of 87 Topps or a $1,000,000 PSA8 Wagner, there are douches around every corner ready to screw us over. We all do our best due diligence and go from there.

On a more positive note, I've ripped a lot of BBCE wax and they've always been what they were supposed to be. I've heard that Steve Hart's reputation is beyond repute, so I put my trust and money in his hands. So far, so good.

[swarmee]

https://www.pokebeach.com/2021/12/logan-pauls-3-5-million-base-set-case-may-be-fake-pokemon-community-uncovers-significant-evidence#google_vignette

BBCE / Steve Hart being accused of making a bad decision to certify a case of Pokemon cards that recently was bought for $3.5 million. Could be a base case with a counterfeit label or it could be a complete counterfeit. Or there's still a slight chance it's real. Will be interesting to follow.

[bnorth]

https://www.pokebeach.com/2021/12/logan-pauls-3-5-million-base-set-case-may-be-fake-pokemon-community-uncovers-significant-evidence#google_vignette

BBCE / Steve Hart being accused of making a bad decision to certify a case of Pokemon cards that recently was bought for $3.5 million. Could be a base case with a counterfeit label or it could be a complete counterfeit. Or there's still a slight chance it's real. Will be interesting to follow.

Wow that sucks for everyone. I have not been a fan of BBCE since we had the guy on here brag and show proof how easy it was to get fake packs authenticated by them. Anyone know if that guy is still selling his fake star packs?

[parkplace33]

This post is 100 percent the reason I don’t collect unopened boxes or packs.

[Directly]

Heard someone trying to sell quantities of counterfeit 1989 UD Ken Griffey Jr RC. Even low enough to pull Authentic Griffey RC from factory sets and seeded the bogus reprints then resealing the sets! I haven't personally seen the reprints so cant say if they had the authentic Hologram sticker on the reverse--check out , you may need to turn on the sound https://twitter.com/cfree3344/status/1477165186561851393?s=10

[swarmee]

Heard someone trying to sell quantities of counterfeit 1989 UD Ken Griffey Jr RC. Even low enough to pull Authentic Griffey RC from factory sets and seeded the bogus reprints then resealing the sets! I haven't personally seen the reprints so cant say if they had the authentic Hologram sticker on the reverse--check out , you may need to turn on the sound https://twitter.com/cfree3344/status/1477165186561851393?s=10
That link took me to a blaster box break of 2020 football bought by StockX. You should probably put it in the thread devoted to them. I posted in this one because the story is about BBCE.

[Directly]

That link took me to a blaster box break of 2020 football bought by StockX. You should probably put it in the thread devoted to them. I posted in this one because the story is about BBCE.

I think its very relevant-

[cardsfan73]

https://www.pokebeach.com/2021/12/logan-pauls-3-5-million-base-set-case-may-be-fake-pokemon-community-uncovers-significant-evidence#google_vignette

BBCE / Steve Hart being accused of making a bad decision to certify a case of Pokemon cards that recently was bought for $3.5 million. Could be a base case with a counterfeit label or it could be a complete counterfeit. Or there's still a slight chance it's real. Will be interesting to follow.

Yeah, this story doesn't end well for Jake Paul.. other than a lot of publicity. He ended up spending $3.5 million on Gi Joe cards!

https://youtu.be/i8lmQ5Ls6bw

[Bigdaddy]

Yeah, this story doesn't end well for Jake Paul.. other than a lot of publicity. He ended up spending $3.5 million on Gi Joe cards!

https://youtu.be/i8lmQ5Ls6bw

I'm not sure who to feel sorry for in this.....if anyone at all.

[swarmee]

Logan Paul, but it looks like he's already been refunded by the previous seller, who is trying to get paid back from the flippers who got it from Canada and had Steve authenticate it.

[cardsfan73]

Logan Paul, but it looks like he's already been refunded by the previous seller, who is trying to get paid back from the flippers who got it from Canada and had Steve authenticate it.

My bad! I always get those two mixed up.

I am almost wonder if this was all some kind of publicity stunt.

[Bigdaddy]

My bad! I always get those two mixed up.

I am almost wonder if this was all some kind of publicity stunt.

I was thinking that but there is no way BBCE would want to put something out there like that - basically ruin their creditability.

[bobbyw8469]

Insane.

[Stampsfan]

I was thinking that but there is no way BBCE would want to put something out there like that - basically ruin their creditability.

Exactly what I was thinking. This brings everything they have certified into question.

[x2drich2000]

This still leaves me with the same thoughts about BBCE as I have with PSA or SGC. These are the best authenticators trusted in the hobby, would you rather buy something they looked at, even if they are wrong once in awhile, or buy something completely blind without any other opinions?

[Peter_Spaeth]

This still leaves me with the same thoughts about BBCE as I have with PSA or SGC. These are the best authenticators trusted in the hobby, would you rather buy something they looked at, even if they are wrong once in awhile, or buy something completely blind without any other opinions?

I think, knowing not much about it admittedly, Steve just made a mistake going outside his comfort zone. I don't think it really calls the rest of his work into question.

[vintagetoppsguy]

I think, knowing not much about it admittedly, Steve just made a mistake going outside his comfort zone. I don't think it really calls the rest of his work into question.

What about the products that were within his comfort zone? Like '79 Topps wax trays? All the cello packs with stars on top that he authenticated?

As I mentioned in the other thread, BBCE is no stranger to scandals. The problem is, people just don't like to talk about it because, if he lost credibility, then the value of their "investments" would plummet.

Edited to add: I truly believe that anyone who has the desire to learn can go read Mark Murphy's book and study things like corner folds, roller marks (the lines the rollers leave in the wax as the pack is sealed), etc., and have just as much knowledge as Steve.

[Peter_Spaeth]

What about the products that were within his comfort zone? Like '79 Topps wax trays? All the cello packs with stars on top that he authenticated?

As I mentioned in the other thread, BBCE is no stranger to scandals. The problem is, people just don't like to talk about it because, if he lost credibility, then the value of their "investments" would plummet.

Edited to add: I truly believe that anyone who has the desire to learn can go read Mark Murphy's book and study things like corner folds, roller marks (the lines the rollers leave in the wax as the pack is sealed), etc., and have just as much knowledge as Steve.

If the standard is perfection, very few experts in any field are going to live up to it, IMO.

[vintagetoppsguy]

If the standard is perfection, very few experts in any field are going to live up to it, IMO.

I don't know of any profession where perfection is the standard, but why would he examine and authenticate something that isn't in his wheelhouse? That just doesn't make sense to me.

[Peter_Spaeth]

I don't know of any profession where perfection is the standard, but why would he examine and authenticate something the isn't in his wheelhouse? That just doesn't make sense to me.

Agreed.

[vintagetoppsguy]

If you watch the video, before the case is opened, his justification for authentication is based on 2 things: (1) he says the factory tape is aged to the case and (2) he points to the manufacturer's label (Wizards of the Coast) showing wear that is consistent to the lines in the cardboard.

The fact is, the tape obviously isn't aged to the case. It's not like he just made a simple mistake. He flat out said the tape was aged to the case. That proves that when examining a case that is supposedly factory sealed, he can't tell the difference in tape that is aged to the box or something that has been re-taped. That's scary given the number of factory cases he has authenticated as well as boxes that were supposedly FASC.

[53toppscollector]

As others said, I wouldn't really question everything hes ever authenticated, he does seem to know baseball, just not sure why he dove into something he isn't an expert in. I assume it has something to do with him bringing in a huge fee to authenticate it, but this clearly isn't going to help his reputation in the hobby, especially outside the baseball community.

Speaking more broadly, I've never really been a believer in buying sealed wax. I mean, I get why prices are really high, I just don't think it makes a ton of sense, and the downsides far outweigh the upsides.

[chriskim]

What about the products that were within his comfort zone? Like '79 Topps wax trays? All the cello packs with stars on top that he authenticated?

As I mentioned in the other thread, BBCE is no stranger to scandals. The problem is, people just don't like to talk about it because, if he lost credibility, then the value of their "investments" would plummet.

Edited to add: I truly believe that anyone who has the desire to learn can go read Mark Murphy's book and study things like corner folds, roller marks (the lines the rollers leave in the wax as the pack is sealed), etc., and have just as much knowledge as Steve.

Where is Mark Murphy now? He burnt down his own inventories and made millions from insurance, didn't he?

[clamendo]

I don't know of any profession where perfection is the standard, but why would he examine and authenticate something that isn't in his wheelhouse? That just doesn't make sense to me.


$. I believe the fee is based on a percentage of the value of the item. So, if the case is $3.5 M that’s a lot of coin. I would be shocked if this video was legitimate.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

[Exhibitman]

https://photos.imageevent.com/exhibitman/dropins/snoopy%20laughing%20gif.gif
https://photos.imageevent.com/exhibitman/dropins/Nelson%20Ha%20Ha.gif

scha·den·freu·de /ˈSHädənˌfroidə/
noun
The pleasure derived by someone from another person's misfortune.

[chalupacollects]

I don't know of any profession where perfection is the standard, but why would he examine and authenticate something that isn't in his wheelhouse? That just doesn't make sense to me.

Hmmm, docking into the space station calls for perfection! lol

[vthobby]

When I see this thread "BBCX" I cringe......as some others have pointed it is:

BBCE

BBCE

BBCE

ughhhhhh

I keep thinking its a motocross thread or something!

There is an "edit" button! ugh

:cool:

PS I don't usually take a thread seriously when the main title is in error! It's not rocket science really. Baseball Card Exchange.... I see the X but really? BBCE thank you, and yes, I get fired up over silly stuff lol~!

[bxb]

Any appraisal is just one person's opinion.

Caveat emptor.

[samosa4u]

If the standard is perfection, very few experts in any field are going to live up to it, IMO.

Peter is right.

Have you guys heard of a perfect doctor? Perfect basketball player? Perfect card grader? Mistakes happen. The hobby is much better with Steve in it.

Now, here is my concern: we all know that nobody is going to commit fraud just once. For example, if somebody trims a PSA 7 and turns it into a PSA 10, and makes twenty-thousand-dollars from that one sale, then we all know that he is going to do it again and again and again. So, whoever screwed around with this Pokemon box has definitely done this with many other boxes, packs, etc. Just think about it for a second. All those 1952 Topps baseball wax packs that you were drooling over at the last National could have GI Joe cards in them! LOL!

[mikemb]

Peter is right.

Have you guys heard of a perfect doctor? Perfect basketball player? Perfect card grader? Mistakes happen. The hobby is much better with Steve in it.

Now, here is my concern: we all know that nobody is going to commit fraud just once. For example, if somebody trims a PSA 7 and turns it into a PSA 10, and makes twenty-thousand-dollars from that one sale, then we all know that he is going to do it again and again and again. So, whoever screwed around with this Pokemon box has definitely done this with many other boxes, packs, etc. Just think about it for a second. All those 1952 Topps baseball wax packs that you were drooling over at the last National could have GI Joe cards in them! LOL!


My wife is perfect. she told me so herself.:D

[cmcclelland]

I don't visit this forum as often as I used to, so I just saw this thread. I wanted to go back to the original post and make some comments.

First, I want to be totally transparent and state that I have done a lot of business with both Steve Hart at BBCE and Brian at REA. I believe they are two of the most honest people I have ever done business with in my 40+ years in this hobby. You simply don't find very many people with their kind of integrity in this hobby. I also believe that Steve Hart is without question the foremost expert as it relates to unopened material.

As far as the 1989 Score Football Set goes, I wanted to shed some additional light on this. With factory sets like this, Steve Hart has three different designations that he provides: (1) Factory Set; (2) Tape Intact; and (3) From a Sealed Case. Obviously, the Tape Intact designation only applies to sets such as Topps Traded sets that sometimes came from the factory with a piece of scotch tape applied as a seal to the individual set. As previously mentioned, From A Sealed Case means that the Factory Set came from a Factory Case that was still sealed as it came from the factory and then opened by Steve and wrapped as "FASC".

I actually own several 1989 Score football sets that are BBCE wrapped with the designation "FASC", meaning they came out of a sealed case and were immediately wrapped without being opened or searched. If I were to sell these sets, I would get a significant premium over the price of a set that was simply BBCE wrapped as a "Factory Set". The unopened collector community understands this difference and pays for these products accordingly. Personally, I would probably never buy a Factory Set that was BBCE wrapped and did not either have the "Tape Intact" or "FASC" designation. If I were to buy such a set, I would do it knowing and probably expecting that the key cards were not perfectly gem mint, centered, etc. This is why collectors pay a premium for the Tape Intact or FASC designations.

I hope that sheds some additional light on this for folks who don't normally collect unopened material.

[Exhibitman]

This stuff is Schroedinger's wrapping: the case was both authentic and fake until it was opened.

[Frank A]

I've had several dealings with Steve Hart, and he is a stand up guy. As the saying goes, Shit Happens. No one is perfect all the time, and anyone who says they never made a mistake is a liar. He is the best at what he does .......

[Lorewalker]

It appears to me Steve was simply applying his understanding of sealing techniques to cases he has seen over the decades. He may very well have been correct that the tape was aged with the box. It seems he was outside his wheelhouse because there are things specific to Pokemon that were apparently not right with this case or at the least, questionable. He is the best the hobby has. Far better than Murphy, imo.

All TPG have made millions of dollars of errors. Most likely 10s of millions. Go ahead and break out any pre war card in a PSA or SGC 8 or above and come back and tell me if you ever got it back into a PSA or SGC holder with any number on it. Same could be said for many post war cards in 9s and above.

[vintagetoppsguy]

He may very well have been correct that the tape was aged with the box.

His exact words were, "The tape is aged onto the case." That's physically impossible since the case had been resealed. If he can't tell the difference in tape that is aged to a case and tape that is not, how can he authenticate cases that are supposedly sealed?

[JollyElm]

When I see this thread "BBCX" I cringe......as some others have pointed it is:

BBCE

BBCE

BBCE

ughhhhhh

I keep thinking its a motocross thread or something!

There is an "edit" button! ugh

:cool:

PS I don't usually take a thread seriously when the main title is in error! It's not rocket science really. Baseball Card Exchange.... I see the X but really? BBCE thank you, and yes, I get fired up over silly stuff lol~!


This one's for you...

128. Syntaxperation
Being driven absolutely bonkers with frustration whenever you see a blatantly obvious misspelled word in a thread title...and it never gets corrected by the OP, even though it’s been there for days, weeks, months or forever!!!

[Johnny630]

BBCE means this, when you sell it you will get more then if it wasn’t wrapped and authenticated. If you Croke with it your heirs will have a much easier time liquidating. To me it’s a no brained. This small blip will be meaningless in the long run. I have full confidence in BBCE resale value and ease of sale.

[Peter_Spaeth]

BBCE means this, when you sell it you will get more then if it wasn’t wrapped and authenticated. If you Croke with it your heirs will have a much easier time liquidating. To me it’s a no brained. This small blip will be meaningless in the long run. I have full confidence in BBCE resale value and ease of sale.

Getting millions of cards wrong hasn't hurt PSA resale any.

[Johnny630]

Getting millions of cards wrong hasn't hurt PSA resale any.

Your statement proves my point. It will go only go up, people are gullible and googly eyed over cards in slabs or authenticated.

[Bigdaddy]

Getting millions of cards wrong hasn't hurt PSA resale any.

So PSA got the very first, and probably most expensive (at the time) and well-known, card they ever graded wrong.

Now BBCE has not been able to detect fraudulent activity on one of, if not the, most expensive unopened case they've ever authenticated.

We saw what the bogus grade did to PSA's business; time will tell what the Pokemon case fiasco does to BBCE's. Time to invest in BBCE.

[Lorewalker]

His exact words were, "The tape is aged onto the case." That's physically impossible since the case had been resealed. If he can't tell the difference in tape that is aged to a case and tape that is not, how can he authenticate cases that are supposedly sealed?

I am not a case, pack or box authenticator...I am guessing that you are not either. You apparently feel qualified to voice your opinion that Steve should absolutely know the difference. These cases were issued in 1999. If it had been resealed in 1999 should Steve been able to tell? What about in 2003? Maybe the art/science of authenticating needs to be be able to distinguish with certainty so that is not something which is relied upon. Maybe the authentication of unopened has gone too far and should have stopped with packs?

Steve does not look good here but that was due to stepping outside his wheelhouse on a very significant item. The aging I don't think was the tip off to Pokemon experts who felt the case was bad when it was on ebay.

I will again state that I feel this was nothing more than a publicity stunt by Logan Paul simply going by the work of fiction he posted yesterday.

[vthobby]

This one's for you...

128. Syntaxperation
Being driven absolutely bonkers with frustration whenever you see a blatantly obvious misspelled word in a thread title...and it never gets corrected by the OP, even though it’s been there for days!!

That's me! You got me! Sometimes it stays forever just to tease me! ugh!

:eek:

Peace, Mike

[Peter_Spaeth]

I am not a case, pack or box authenticator...I am guessing that you are not either. You apparently feel qualified to voice your opinion that Steve should absolutely know the difference. These cases were issued in 1999. If it had been resealed in 1999 should Steve been able to tell? What about in 2003? Maybe the art/science of authenticating needs to be be able to distinguish with certainty so that is not something which is relied upon. Maybe the authentication of unopened has gone too far and should have stopped with packs?

Steve does not look good here but that was due to stepping outside his wheelhouse on a very significant item. The aging I don't think was the tip off to Pokemon experts who felt the case was bad when it was on ebay.

I will again state that I feel this was nothing more than a publicity stunt by Logan Paul simply going by the work of fiction he posted yesterday.

I haven't followed this over time, but my gut instinct about the video was that it felt staged and the reactions did not seem authentic/spontaneous. I suggest watching it with the sound turned down and just focusing on facial expressions and body language.

[vintagetoppsguy]

I haven't followed this over time, but my gut instinct about the video was that it felt staged and the reactions did not seem authentic/spontaneous. I suggest watching it with the sound turned down and just focusing on facial expressions and body language.

I feel like it was more of a publicity stunt rather than being staged. Logan and the others probably had a strong suspicion that the case was fraudulent before it was opened. But he wins either way. If the case was real, he looks good, it brings him attention. If the case is fake, he looks like the victim, it still brings him attention. But the entire thing couldn't have been staged IMO. Steve Hart wouldn't have been a willing participant.

[Peter_Spaeth]

I feel like it was more of a publicity stunt rather than being staged. Logan and the others probably had a strong suspicion that the case was fraudulent before it was opened. But he wins either way. If the case was real, he looks good, it brings him attention. If the case is fake, he looks like the victim, it still brings him attention. But the entire thing couldn't have been staged IMO. Steve Hart wouldn't have been a willing participant.

Right, they played Steve IMO.

[swarmee]

Sure, just make up any old story; I guess that's what we do now when we don't like what actually happened.

[vintagetoppsguy]

Some reading material if you're bored...
https://www.net54baseball.com/showthread.php?t=162027

I made this statement on this forum almost 5 years ago (06/26/17):

"I don't think Steve is dishonest at all. In fact, I would trust his products over most any other dealers. However, he does make mistakes and I don't think he has near the knowledge that most here give him credit for."

I sure nailed it.

[Snowman]

If you watch the video, before the case is opened, his justification for authentication is based on 2 things: (1) he says the factory tape is aged to the case and (2) he points to the manufacturer's label (Wizards of the Coast) showing wear that is consistent to the lines in the cardboard.

The fact is, the tape obviously isn't aged to the case. It's not like he just made a simple mistake. He flat out said the tape was aged to the case. That proves that when examining a case that is supposedly factory sealed, he can't tell the difference in tape that is aged to the box or something that has been re-taped. That's scary given the number of factory cases he has authenticated as well as boxes that were supposedly FASC.

How do you know the tape isn't aged to the case?

[vintagetoppsguy]

How do you know the tape isn't aged to the case?

Seriously? I've answered that question several times in both threads, but here it goes again. Because the case has been re-taped...even with a different kind of tape that wasn't originally used by the manufacturer.

If you still don't understand, I can provide pictures. That's not a jab, I'm being sincere. I can provide you with pictures of what aged tape looks like on cardboard compared to what fresh tape looks like on cardboard. Would that help?

[Snowman]

Seriously? I've answered that question several times in both threads, but here it goes again. Because the case has been re-taped...even with a different kind of tape that wasn't originally used by the manufacturer.

If you still don't understand, I can provide pictures. That's not a jab, I'm being sincere. I can provide you with pictures of what aged tape looks like on cardboard compared to what fresh tape looks like on cardboard. Would that help?

Yes, seriously. I have not seen the evidence that the case was retaped. Are there photos you can point me to that show this? I just watched the video, and Steve points out that the tape appears to be legit and aged to the case. I paused it several times where it showed the case close up and I don't see any evidence of it either. But you seem pretty confident that it was in fact retaped. Can you share why you think this?

[bn2cardz]

Yes, seriously. I have not seen the evidence that the case was retaped. Are there photos you can point me to that show this? I just watched the video, and Steve points out that the tape appears to be legit and aged to the case. I paused it several times where it showed the case close up and I don't see any evidence of it either. But you seem pretty confident that it was in fact retaped. Can you share why you think this?The case wasn't retaped. It is a total fabrication. The box isn't the right type of box, the label isn't the right size, the barcode isn't right, the tape is even wrong. This isn't a simple matter of repackage case, the entire case was a fake.

Yes there were repacked boxes in side the fabricated case, but that wasn't known unit the fabricated case was opened.


å̵̧͇̭͉͙̜͠n̴̨̻̬͙̯̗̋̎́̒̾͛̈́̾̕d̸̳̱̗̖̖̟͆͐̂́y̵̆͗̓̋̿̋̉͗̈ ̩́ ̷̢̧̗̳̫̭̼̒̒͗̇͐̉͒͠͝n̴̨̬̣͋̌͌̀̌̄e̵̘̞̙̯̯̰͋́̀̋͘͜u̵͌̾̉̇͐͂ ͙̜͙̤̗͍̤̥̽̈́b̶̡̛͕̋̃͒̒͛̐e̷̥̠̟̓͂͋̐r̴̗̜̲͇̘̙̾̾t̴̛͗͋͌ ̹͙̠̎

[Snowman]

The case wasn't retaped. It is a total fabrication. The box isn't the right type of box, the label isn't the right size, the barcode isn't right, the tape is even wrong. This isn't a simple matter of repackage case, the entire case was a fake.

Yes there were repacked boxes in side the fabricated case, but that wasn't known unit the fabricated case was opened.

This was my impression as well when I watched the video. I assumed the entire case was fraudulent. But VintageToppsGuy is claiming to have evidence that this was actually a resealed case, implying that the original tape was removed and then it was retaped or that it was simply taped over. But I see no evidence of that claim when I look at the pictures and videos of it.

Note, this isn't simply a distinction without a difference. If Steve can't tell the difference between a box that has had its original tape/seal removed and then later taped back over, then that has different implications for his ability to identify bad boxes in the sports card market than if he was right about the tape/seal and stickers all being aged correctly with the cardboard box, but was just ignorant about what that box was supposed to look like to begin with. Having the wrong tape correctly aged to a fake case is one kind of mistake, but having the right tape on the right box having been removed and then resealed is a different one.

[bn2cardz]

This was my impression as well when I watched the video. I assumed the entire case was fraudulent. But VintageToppsGuy is claiming to have evidence that this was actually a resealed case, implying that the original tape was removed and then it was retaped or that it was simply taped over. But I see no evidence of that claim when I look at the pictures and videos of it.



Note, this isn't simply a distinction without a difference. If Steve can't tell the difference between a box that has had its original tape/seal removed and then later taped back over, then that has different implications for his ability to identify bad boxes in the sports card market than if he was right about the tape/seal and stickers all being aged correctly with the cardboard box, but was just ignorant about what that box was supposed to look like to begin with. Having the wrong tape correctly aged to a fake case is one kind of mistake, but having the right tape on the right box having been removed and then resealed is a different one.There is a difference, and I would say authenticating a fake case is worse. Missing an altered, authentic, case is bad. But authenticating a fake case is worse.

This means all someone has to do is buy a generic box from the store and put any label on it and Steve Hart will think it is real because the tape wasn't altered?

He is the supposed expert and can't even tell a fake from an authentic. Not even a good fake mind you. This was so bad that others online could tell it was fake just from some photos. He has it in hand and still couldn't identify it as fake.

å̵̧͇̭͉͙̜͠n̴̨̻̬͙̯̗̋̎́̒̾͛̈́̾̕d̸̳̱̗̖̖̟͆͐̂́y̵̆͗̓̋̿̋̉͗̈ ̩́ ̷̢̧̗̳̫̭̼̒̒͗̇͐̉͒͠͝n̴̨̬̣͋̌͌̀̌̄e̵̘̞̙̯̯̰͋́̀̋͘͜u̵͌̾̉̇͐͂ ͙̜͙̤̗͍̤̥̽̈́b̶̡̛͕̋̃͒̒͛̐e̷̥̠̟̓͂͋̐r̴̗̜̲͇̘̙̾̾t̴̛͗͋͌ ̹͙̠̎

[vintagetoppsguy]

But VintageToppsGuy is claiming to have evidence that this was actually a resealed case, implying that the original tape was removed and then it was retaped or that it was simply taped over. But I see no evidence of that claim when I look at the pictures and videos of it.

I never said or implied that I had any such evidence nor am I claiming that it was a resealed case. I saw the video, I only know as much as you do.

Please try to follow me. It doesn't matter if it was the original factory case or just some random cardboard box that someone found somewhere to fabricate this product. Likewise, it doesn't matter if it was the original factory tape or some aftermarket tape bought at Wal-Mart. Here's is my point (that for some reason you just can't comprehend): The box and tape (irrelevant if they're actually factory or not) in question are supposed to be nearly 23 years old. Tape applied to a box 23 years ago is going to show wear consistent with it's age. The case in question did not. Therefore, I think common sense tell us this case wasn't sealed 23 years ago.

I have boxes in my climate controlled storage unit that were sealed 20+ years ago. They're not cases of sports cards, but the contents inside are irrelevant. The tape is still aged to the cardboard boxes. Tape that is aged to a box shows certain characteristics. The actual case in question didn't show those characteristics.

At this point I'm finished discussing it with you. It's apparent you just want to argue (such as in the other thread) and just make stuff up that I didn't actually say.

[Peter_Spaeth]

Thanks to a Blowout member, here's a comprehensive article on this mess.

I'll post in both threads since we can't seem to unify them.

https://www.cardlines.com/logan-pauls-fake-pokemon-case-a-comprehensive-guide/