Buyer Beware: CMIZ5290 board member

[todeen]

Buyer Beware when dealing with Net54 member CMIZ5290 (Kevin Mize).

Nuts and bolts:
CMIZ5290 sold me a 33 Goudey Gehrig in June, and advertised it with a guarantee as "Fair condition....I guarantee the card to be authentic, and will grade," (See his OP in a screenshot). I sent it to SGC on June 16, shortly after I received it from Kevin, on a 10 day sub. After 130+ days with SGC, they determined the card as ALTERED (see SGC screenshot). I asked CMIZ5290 for a refund due to his guarantee, and he has declined.


More Details:
CMIZ5290 responded to my request by stating, "I guaranteed the card to grade as an orignal card (not a reprint, etc...), and it did... I did not guarantee a numerical grade." In my interpretation of his OP, that is not how he advertised the card. Personally, I wouldn't have had a problem if the Gehrig only graded as authentic, and I wouldn't be asking for a refund. However, I'm pretty sure some of the board members feel that the designation of ALTERED is less than the designation of Authentic. Some collectors just hate that designation. I am one of them. So even if he only guaranteed the card as authentic, the card did not receive that grade from SGC. I don't want to own an altered card, I wanted to own a beat up old Authentic card. That's why I'm requesting a refund.

This was my first TPG submission, so I'm not extremely experienced with grading. Maybe with more experience I could have foreseen this and not bought the card, but the description and guarantee of the card, in addition to Kevin's 6000+ posts led me to believe I could have faith in an honorable purchase and transaction from a veteran board member.

***I know some of you will be asking to see a picture of the returned card from SGC to determine if I made any alterations. I expect the card to be delivered from USPS today. I missed the delivery and signature confirmation yesterday 11/06, and if they don't deliver card today I can pick it up at the Post Office on Monday 11/09. I will post a picture when I have it in hand, and you can see for yourself it is the same card I received from CMIZ5290 without any additional changes. But he is still actively selling on the board and I thought this was a timely Public Service Announcement***

[perezfan]

As a seller, I was stiffed twice by this same guy...

The first time, he simply never paid for an item that he reserved. Didn't even have the courtesy to write me to say he changed his mind. I had to reach out 4 times, before being graced with his rude reply that he no longer wanted the item. His inappropriate tone indicated that I was somehow out of line for pursuing the issue (after two weeks of being ignored).

The second time, he simply lied about sending the money. He said the check was in the mail. Of course it never arrived. Had he really sent it, he would have inquired or followed up to see if I received the payment. Instead, I never heard from him again.

My fault on the second occurrence.... I should never have given him a second chance.

I hope you get your refund without having to endure a huge ordeal. I really wish this member could be barred from this site, or at a minimum from the BST.

I've had well over 100 easy/successful transactions here, and only 2 that went bad... BOTH from the same person.

[iwantitiwinit]

I have bought several higher dollar cards from cmiz5290 and have never had an issue. Cards were as advertised and sent within a reasonable amount of time. In my experience communication is not always instantaneous but is adequate.

[Eric72]

"I guarantee the card to be authentic..."
- CMIZ5290

Easy enough to understand.



"...and grade."
- CMIZ5290

What does this mean, if not to mean grade numerically?



I am genuinely curious.

[Leon]

"I guarantee the card to be authentic..."
- CMIZ5290

Easy enough to understand.



"...and grade."
- CMIZ5290

What does this mean, if not to mean grade numerically?



I am genuinely curious.

I am with you. I think what he did is a bunch of BS and am contemplating what to do .....

.

[conor912]

It begs the question, is “authentic” a grade?

Talk amongst yaselves.

[3-2-count]

It begs the question, is “authentic” a grade?



In my opinion, it is not!

[Leon]

It begs the question, is “authentic” a grade?

Talk amongst yaselves.

No, saying something will grade is not meaning AUT in our sphere. Period. That is my thought But i am listening. And the OP asked me about this situation and if he should post it. My answer is obvious....
I don't think we want weasley semantics on our forum. But I am listening...


.

[conor912]

No, saying something will grade is not meaning AUT in our sphere. Period. That is my thought But i am listening. And the OP asked me about this situation and if he should post it. My answer is obvious....
I don't think we want weasley semantics on our forum. But I am listening...


.

I agree, but apparently there’s at least one person who perhaps doesn’t.

[Leon]

I agree, but apparently there’s at least one person who perhaps doesn’t.

My thought is when everyone else is wrong then you (not you specifically) need to look in the mirror. This place needs to be as collector friendly as possible. I doubt Kevin will be able to sell on here any longer if he doesn't offer the refund.

,

[Casey2296]

-Integrity-

The choice between what is convenient and what is right.

[clydepepper]

Well said Boss!

[Throttlesteer]

Its an authentic Gehrig. At the very least, the seller should accept the return and refund + grading fee. Its not like the card can't be sold again. Its not worth your reputation based on a misunderstanding of semantics for a $1k card.

[Exhibitman]

Lemme inject a little contract law here: first, we take words of a contract at their common meanings unless there are terms of art involved, and second, we do not assume that people insert meaningless clauses. The statement "authentic, and will grade" is a guarantee of two things, set apart by the ", and'. Authentic means it is not a fake but it could be altered. "Will grade" means it will be assigned a numerical grade by a TPG. In the hobby "grade" is commonly understood to refer to a numerical grade. If the guarantee was only meant to be "authentic" and if "authentic" also was intended to itself be a grade, then the second clause of the guarantee would be superfluous. The fact that it was added to the guarantee means one of two things:

--The seller warranted the card to not only be authentic but to also get a numerical grade, as the buyer understood it; or

--The seller misled the buyer, whether or not intentionally, by using this phrase.

Either way, the likely outcome in my court is a ruling for the buyer.

MORE TO THE POINT THIS IS A GEHRIG SOLD BETWEEN MEMBERS OF THE BOARD AND A GENTLEMAN WOULD REFUND THE BUYER AND RESELL THE CARD. A fellow member is unhappy and scorching your rep publicly, it isn't worth it. Besides, I'm sure there is a ready market for the card in any condition. Hell, in the four months since the sale and in this market it is probably worth more.

[samosa4u]

Tim is a great guy and he has had a pretty rough year due to health issues. I reached out to him and we had a nice chat (I've been down the same road). It's sad that somebody would put him through this. Kevin, stop behaving like a dickhead and give the guy his money back.

[Tyruscobb]

I do not personally know the seller or buyer. I have never transacted with them. I make these statements to illustrate that I am not biased, and have no dog in this fight. Im not saying one is right and the other is wrong. I’m just providing how I interpret the seller’s post.

I think the seller has painted himself into a corner. Let’s break down his advertising post, which is an invitation for an offer.

His first two words were “fair condition.” This is special language that the hobby universally recognizes means the card’s condition is equivalent to a 1.5 grade. The industry standard is that poor condition means a one grade, fair condition means a 1.5 grade, and good condition means a two grade. So, from the very beginning, the seller is telling potentially buyers that he thinks the card will grade a 1.5.

Later, the seller states, “I guarantee the card to be authentic and grade.” There are two reasonable inferences a potential buyer can draw from this statement. The first is the that seller is guaranteeing the card is authentic. Simple enough.

Secondly and significantly, the seller also guarantees the card will grade. But, what “grade” is the seller guaranteeing? Well, let’s go back to the post’s first two word - “fair condition” which again the hobby universally recognizes is a 1.5.

“Guarantee” is such a strong word. It undoubtedly helps any seller sell a card. The reason is a buyer relies on this word and trusts that the card is what the seller guarantees it is.

In this case, the post’s plain language and its reasonably inference is the seller guaranteed the card’s authenticity and that it would grade a 1.5. The card was not what the seller guaranteed. The question is now: what is the proper remedy, if any, if the card does not meet a seller’s guarantee on this site?

[Lorewalker]

Dunno either person here but the post by the seller was ambiguous in his using the word "grade". The buyer is not happy regardless so for 1K is it worth being seen as a deadbeat, losing selling privileges here and possibly being banned?

Even if those things are not on the line, it really should not be that hard to do the right thing.

[Leon]

Dunno either person here but the post by the seller was ambiguous in his using the word "grade". The buyer is not happy regardless so for 1K is it worth being seen as a deadbeat, losing selling privileges here and possibly being banned?

Even if those things are not on the line, it really should not be that hard to do the right thing.

Oh, trust me, all of them are on the line.

[Jcosta19]

As a seller, I was stiffed twice by this same guy...

The first time, he simply never paid for an item that he reserved. Didn't even have the courtesy to write me to say he changed his mind. I had to reach out 4 times, before being graced with his rude reply that he no longer wanted the item. His inappropriate tone indicated that I was somehow out of line for pursuing the issue (after two weeks of being ignored).

The second time, he simply lied about sending the money. He said the check was in the mail. Of course it never arrived. Had he really sent it, he would have inquired or followed up to see if I received the payment. Instead, I never heard from him again.

My fault on the second occurrence.... I should never have given him a second chance.

I hope you get your refund without having to endure a huge ordeal. I really wish this member could be barred from this site, or at a minimum from the BST.

I've had well over 100 easy/successful transactions here, and only 2 that went bad... BOTH from the same person.This alone is very concerning behavior and should make anyone pause.

If I could just send a quick "ill take it" before anyone else on new posts and THEN research the card and recent prices and only actually take it if the deal looked good....well I'd have a lot more cards right now.

Not saying that's what happened in these cases since I have no first hand knowledge but it is not a good look.

Sent from my SM-G960U using Tapatalk

[Seven]

I can't speak to the situation, Tim I'm sorry you're going through this trouble though. I can speak personally though in terms of purchasing from Tim, Tim is a great all around guy, very fair and communicative. He was one of the first people I purchased from on the board, and was more than happy to answer any and all of my questions.

I don't think it's particularly fair to you, Tim with everything going on, but I will say that at a minimum if you can't get a refund, I'm sure someone would be more than happy to purchase the card from you at the same price you paid for it, if not more.

[Lorewalker]

Oh, trust me, all of them are on the line.

Rightfully so, Leon. I guess this is why we have police. Some people need to be caught and punished because they cannot do the right thing on their own accord. Just don't get putting a 1K price tag on one's reputation.

Even if the seller refunds it should not have even taken being humiliated in a thread to make the correction.

[griffon512]

I guess this means shark's tooth necklaces may no longer be available to purchase on the Board. Damn shame.

[Fred]

Dunno either person here but the post by the seller was ambiguous in his using the word "grade". The buyer is not happy regardless so for 1K is it worth being seen as a deadbeat, losing selling privileges here and possibly being banned?

Even if those things are not on the line, it really should not be that hard to do the right thing.

Somehow I think it might be difficult for Kevin to make a sale to people he hasn't dealt with before because of this. He's probably done the right thing many times in the past and there will be people who trust him and those people will continue to purchase cards from him. But trying to make a sale to other members that have read this thread may be a "hard sell".

Just curious, was the card encapsulated with an ALTERED flip? Or was it not encapsulated at all? Any idea what the alteration is?

Question - if Kevin refunds the money, is he also so supposed to pay the grading fee?

Kevin,

If you've had the card over 30 years ago, then your cost on the card (cash or trade) would probably be a lot less than what you sold it for on the BST. Just my opinion, I'd refund the buyer, pay the grading fee (if the card is encapsulated) and sell it to someone that wouldn't mind the card with an ALT designation. If the card is not encapsulated, then that may be a tough sell.


Here are two recent sales for a 33G Gehrig card flipped as AUTH or ALT on fleabay.

I sure hope everyone finds a satisfactory conclusion to this.

https://www.ebay.com/itm/1933-Goudey-Lou-Gehrig-92-Baseball-Card-Beckett-BVG-Altered-AUTHENTIC-/224204512669?hash=item3433a15d9d%3Ag%3AZNcAAOSw%7E Zlfcpki&nma=true&si=Y4W9WBYhA8OLlMCvTC1FHl92wr8%253D&orig_cvip=true&nordt=true&rt=nc&_trksid=p2047675.l2557


https://www.ebay.com/itm/1933-Goudey-Lou-Gehrig-NNO-SGC-A-NICE-FRONT-HOF-Yankees/264847838372?hash=item3daa294ca4:g:Tu8AAOSwXQ1fKs3 0

[CJinPA]

Oh, trust me, all of them are on the line.

Pretty new to the net54 boards myself but one of the things I've really, really enjoyed is the integrity that people uphold here. I was originally clued in to the site by DJ x2drich2000 while completing a transaction on a card he was selling. Since then, I've purchased from Leon (via his site, nice E92 Dockmans, thank you!), Stetson_1883 and also from Gary Nuchereno through Ed Hans.

Not inexpensive transactions, to say the least but the integrity and 'birds of a feather' crowd make these transactions easy and worthwhile.

I'm not sure why the seller wouldn't refund and accept the card back. The words of the guarantee are there for all to see - INTEGRITY!

[Tao_Moko]

Am I the only one that doesn't like the look of this card? It is not a set I've ever given much attention to, but based solely on the above picture would have walked away. As far as the transaction - we are a community and sometimes bs has to be called out for buyer and/or seller conduct. This is the jury. Pretty overwhelming that a refund should be given.

[Leon]

I guess this means shark's tooth necklaces may no longer be available to purchase on the Board. Damn shame.

If something isn't illegal, or too offending and in the correct BST spot, a member could try to sell them.

>

[Casey2296]

I guess this means shark's tooth necklaces may no longer be available to purchase on the Board. Damn shame.

That would be in the Golf B/S/T under the Greg Norman subheader.

[Jgrace]

My $0.02:

Both buyers and sellers need to use clear language in these situations. “Grade” is not enough. “Grade numerically” or “grade authentic” should be used to set expectations. If a seller doesn’t provide that, the prospective buyer should demand that clarity.

That said, in this case I would have interpreted the language as a guarantee of a numeric grade, and expected a return if it turned out that the item was altered. I think that goes with the expectations of selling on this forum, and the trust that is required to make this whole thing work. However, I don’t believe the guarantee should extend to cover any grading costs (in this case, with the weak language).

[Leon]

That would be in the Golf B/S/T under the Greg Norman subheader.

That isn't that big of a deal, to me. This other stuff is. I move threads every day into the correct spots.

And fyi, Kevin might be away doing things outside the hobby, who knows. So the piling on is sort of that. It's an overwhelming sentiment of what should be done and should have already been done. We'll see. With longtime board members I don't think decisions like this should be made quickly, unless there is theft or something. (and I guess one could argue anything but this isn't theft to me)
.

[bnorth]

I am a little late to the party, here is my opinion. Kevin clearly posted the condition, fair. He guaranteed it to be an authentic card and grade.

The card did not grade so he should refund, pretty plain and simple in my opinion.

[bnorth]

That isn't that big of a deal, to me. This other stuff is. I move threads every day into the correct spots.

And fyi, Kevin might be away doing things outside the hobby, who knows. So the piling on is sort of that. It's an overwhelming sentiment of what should be done and should have already been done. We'll see. With longtime board members I don't think decisions like this should be made quickly, unless there is theft or something. (and I guess one could argue anything but this isn't theft to me)
.

Kevin HAS been on the board in the last hour.

[Leon]

Kevin HAS been on the board in the last hour.

ok, I didn't check. No response is a response, of course.


.

[ullmandds]

ruh roh?

[Gobucsmagic74]

I'm curious why the card did not receive a numeric grade? I mean aside from looking to be in fair/poor condition I see no obvious signs of alterations (and who would even bother on a card in this condition?)

[pokerplyr80]

If he just said the card is guaranteed authentic that would have been fine. And grade would be interpreted by most, myself included, as the card will receive a numerical grade.

This should be an easy call. Refund the purchase price and grading fees and move on. Or stop selling on this site.

[ullmandds]

My thought is when everyone else is wrong then you (not you specifically) need to look in the mirror. This place needs to be as collector friendly as possible. I doubt Kevin will be able to sell on here any longer if he doesn't offer the refund.

,

Aaaaand Keeping up With the Kardashians is ending?

[Tyruscobb]

I'm curious why the card did not receive a numeric grade?

It is difficult to access why the card received an altered grade without examining it in person, and potentially without a loupe. The seller has owned it since 1990. Back then, we all used screw-down holders, which can alter the stock.

(and who would even bother on a card in this condition?)

No need to insult a man. We all have limited resources and different disposable income levels. Some members can only afford lower grade vintage cards, while others here have the ability to purchase a T-206 Wagner. There was a great post in this month’s pickup thread on this very issue.

[wondo]

It is difficult to access why the card received an altered grade without examining it in person, and potentially without a loupe. The seller has owned it since 1990. Back then, we all used screw-down holders, which can alter the stock.



No need to insult a man. We all have limited resources and different disposable income levels. Some members can only afford lower grade vintage cards, while others here have the ability to purchase a T-206 Wagner. There was a great post in this month’s pickup thread on this very issue.


I believe he was referencing that the card is well-worn so why would somebody alter it. I do not believe Dan was disparaging the buyer.

[Tyruscobb]

I believe he was referencing that the card is well-worn so why would somebody alter it. I do not believe Dan was disparaging the buyer.

I stand corrected. I misinterpreted the post. I thought he was saying why even bother purchasing a card in that condition. I now see that he probably meant why would anyone bother altering a card in that condition.

My apologies, Dan.

[egbeachley]

I have bought several higher dollar cards from cmiz5290 and have never had an issue. Cards were as advertised and sent within a reasonable amount of time. In my experience communication is not always instantaneous but is adequate.

I do not like these kinds of positive feedback. . Many sellers have good transactions..........until they don’t.

[Leon]

Just an fyi... Kevin and I are talking through emails at this point. ..Yawl will know how it comes out sooner than later.

[Gobucsmagic74]

No need to insult a man. We all have limited resources and different disposable income levels. Some members can only afford lower grade vintage cards, while others here have the ability to purchase a T-206 Wagner. There was a great post in this month’s pickup thread on this very issue.

That wasn’t an insult...slow your roll my man. All I’m saying is the card is clearly worn and I don’t understand how or why anyone would make an attempt to improve it.

[bnorth]

That wasn’t an insult...slow your roll my man. All I’m saying is the card is clearly worn and I don’t understand how or why anyone would make an attempt to improve it.

Because eye appeal makes a huge price difference in lower graded cards in general.

[Gobucsmagic74]

I stand corrected. I misinterpreted the post. I thought he was saying why even bother purchasing a card in that condition. I now see that he probably meant why would anyone bother altering a card in that condition.

My apologies, Dan.

No problem...right back at you

[Tyruscobb]

That wasn’t an insult...slow your roll my man. All I’m saying is the card is clearly worn and I don’t understand how or why anyone would make an attempt to improve it.

I screw up like the next guy. Ha

[todeen]

Kevin sent me an email, we're at least talking again.

Sent from my SAMSUNG-SM-G930A using Tapatalk

[sando69]

congratulations on an incredible display of salesmanship. :(

furthermore, thank you for the opportunity (for all of us) to formulate an accurate opinion in regards to your integrity. :eek:

seems this has been a particularly bad day for douchebags. :D

[Cliff Bowman]

seems this has been a particularly bad day for douchebags. :D
I see what you did there :rolleyes:.

[glynparson]

congratulations on an incredible display of salesmanship. :(

furthermore, thank you for the opportunity (for all of us) to formulate an accurate opinion in regards to your integrity. :eek:

seems this has been a particularly bad day for douchebags. :D

Great post

For the record I have bought from Kevin and even was able to get a bump
On a few higher dollar cards. Of course after that happened he pretty much wouldn’t sell me anything else. He is an odd duck. I wish i could say this shocked me but it really didn’t. I don’t think he’d totally stiff someone but I am not surprised by his position here at all.

[CobbSpikedMe]

Is it interesting that Kevin hasn't commented once in this thread in his own defense?

[Rhotchkiss]

+1. The silence is telling

[sportscardpete]

obviously being the center of attention in a post like this sucks, especially when you're used to being off center.

[ullmandds]

obviously being the center of attention in a post like this sucks, especially when you're used to being off center.

ba dum bum! pete will be here all week folks...twice daily!

[mintacular]

Is this the same guy that sells card with qualifiers and then quotes comps without qualifers, etc.? If so, this should clue you into what kind of person this is?

[Rhotchkiss]

Pete, you are not a PRO and you better (mis)cut it out with that humor...

[MikeGarcia]

http://imagehost.vendio.com/a/2042957/view/1933GEHRIG_NEW.JPG

....
..and to make things even worse the writing on the back is half gibberish....


...

[cardsagain74]

Pete, you are not a PRO and you better (mis)cut it out with that humor...

As long as he doesn't become a qualifier of off-centered jokes

[cammb]

I guess I am in the minority but I read it as saying He guarantees the authenticity and will grade AS SUCH. No one can guarantee any grade.

[3-2-count]

I too had a disappointing experience with Mize years ago and vowed never to speak or deal with him again. In fact I refuse to open any of his threads (except this one ;) )

As small as this community and hobby are its amazing that someone would behave this way so blatantly time and time again.

Reputation is everything.

[DanP]

Is this the same guy that sells card with qualifiers and then quotes comps without qualifers, etc.? If so, this should clue you into what kind of person this is?

Correct, what I never understood with this forum (and I’ve been a member for 10+ years) is that we can’t comment when a board member purposely does something like this. I guess we’re all supposed to help each other, unless it’s another board member being dishonest.

[CMIZ5290]

Is it interesting that Kevin hasn't commented once in this thread in his own defense?

I'll be glad to comment....For the final record, I offered a resolution to Leon and the buyer. And pertaining this card, Leon sent me an email himself today offering to buy the card, so boy this deal had to be a real rip-off didn't it!! But he managed to leave that out of the thread.. As far as this guy Tony Andrea, I don't even know who the Hell this guy is, period. And Leon, interesting that you are making these posts on this thread without one email to me other than the one offering to buy the card. I do have the email for anyone that would like to see.... Other than that, thanks for everything! Net54, I don't need you as you don't need me either. I do wish the best to the many buyers that I dealt with for over 11 years, thank you for that and happy holidays to you and your families...

[HRBAKER]

Merci

[BRoberts]

I'll be glad to comment....For the final record, I offered a resolution to Leon and the buyer. And pertaining this card, Leon sent me an email himself today offering to buy the card, so boy this deal had to be a real rip-off didn't it!! But he managed to leave that out of the thread.. As far as this guy Tony Andrea, I don't even know who the Hell this guy is, period. And Leon, interesting that you are making these posts on this thread without one email to me other than the one offering to buy the card. I do have the email for anyone that would like to see.... Other than that, au revoir! Net54, I don't need you...

Will you be consigning yourself to an auction house?

Bill Roberts

[todeen]

I know you're all interested to see his resolution from Saturday 11/07. So here's the screenshot.

"What approximate difference could there be between a grade of an SGC A versus an SGC 1? $200 maybe? In an effort to try and do the right thing with an unintended misunderstanding, I would be willing to do that...."


After I told him I just didn't want to own an altered card last night, he sent me these responses today, 11/08.

"Is the card encapsulated?" @ 2:21 PM

"So what exactly is the difference between a grade of A or A altered? The grade of A indicates an alteration, no?" @ 2:29 PM

"I have just seen your thread on Net54....Was willing to help, I am now not going to do a DAMN thing....." @ 2:32 PM


I appreciate Leon's advice in handling this matter. I first asked Kevin for a refund and he said no. I asked Leon and two other members their opinions and all three said he misrepresented the card in his OP. They said press him for a refund. He said no a second time. I then asked Leon if I could present this matter to the Net54 community, and he said that would be fine. So then I posted my thread, and the overall sentiment is that his OP guarantee should be honored. Thanks for all your kind words.

I'm not going to cry over spilled milk, so I'm moving on. It looks like all of you enjoyed the locally produced Net54 Soap Opera. Next time, on Days of Our Lives......

[bnorth]

I know you're all interested to see his resolution from Saturday 11/07. So here's the screenshot.

"What approximate difference could there be between a grade of an SGC A versus an SGC 1? $200 maybe? In an effort to try and do the right thing with an unintended misunderstanding, I would be willing to do that...."


After I told him I just didn't want to own an altered card last night, he sent me these responses today, 11/08.

"Is the card encapsulated?" @ 2:21 PM

"So what exactly is the difference between a grade of A or A altered? The grade of A indicates an alteration, no?" @ 2:29 PM

"I have just seen your thread on Net54....Was willing to help, I am now not going to do a DAMN thing....." @ 2:32 PM


I appreciate Leon's advice in handling this matter. I first asked Kevin for a refund and he said no. I asked Leon and two other members their opinions and all three said he misrepresented the card in his OP. They said press him for a refund. He said no a second time. I then asked Leon if I could present this matter to the Net54 community, and he said that would be fine. So then I posted my thread, and the overall sentiment is that his OP guarantee should be honored. Thanks for all your kind words.

I'm not going to cry over spilled milk, so I'm moving on. It looks like all of you enjoyed the locally produced Net54 Soap Opera. Next time, on Days of Our Lives......

So after everything he did nothing, what a loser.
He gave the card a grade, it came back altered, I would hope anyone would refund when that happens.

Hopefully he gets banned or at least sticks to his promise of leaving the forum.

[CobbSpikedMe]

I hope he doesn't leave the forum as he is my main source of pricing data for unaltered high grade cards. :rolleyes:

[ullmandds]

if he leaves do my demerits leave too?

[Cliff Bowman]

He has picked up his marbles and moved elsewhere. https://www.blowoutforums.com/showthread.php?t=1423196

[atx840]

bump






:D

[Rhotchkiss]

Thanks for inquiries. Still available

[samosa4u]

He has picked up his marbles and moved elsewhere. https://www.blowoutforums.com/showthread.php?t=1423196

And BODA just stopped him right in his tracks! LOL!

[steve B]

I'm wondering if SGC changed the way they identify lower grade stuff.

I always checked off "don't encapsulate if it won't get a number grade"
About half the cards that got rejected 2/4? 2/3? were not rejected as alered. One was undersize, another had cuts that were too rough. They wouldn't grade them, so while being just fine, would have come back in an "A" slab, just like the one trimmed on multiple sides would have.

So do they now make the distiinction betweenauthentic but too non-standard to get a number and altered?

[Leon]

I was away from the computer this evening. He is gone. And for the record he said he told Tim he would refund him 200 dollars to make it good. I told Kevin if he didn't want to then send me the 200 and I would refund Tim for the card, getting it for a good price. That was the situation. It doesn't really matter his banishment was overdue.

Kevin says above that Tim left something out but it is actually Kevin that left out the 200 dollar refund part.

This is a small snippet of the email Kevin sent me.

I thought about the 11 years on N54 and I sent Tim an email offering a reduction of $200 to settle any misunderstandings and move on from this. Certainly the difference between an SGC A and SGC 1 should be well within this realm. This is more than fair. He has yet to reply, and I'm trying to do the right thing...

This is a cut and paste of what I said.

How about this? If you are offering a 200 dollar refund I will just have him send me the card. I will refund him the full amount. You PP FF me 200 dollars and we call it even? But the real better thing to do would be to just refund him. But there is a way out if you want it.

LL

.

[Mark17]

I have never understood why sellers won't accept returns, when there is a legitimate reason.

Guy sells a card, gets it back for the money the buyer paid him, and that puts him back where he started. Maybe in some cases the seller can make the buyer pay postage both ways, but my point is, accepting a return just puts everything back to before the transaction happened.

The seller really loses nothing.

[Casey2296]

I was away from the computer this evening. He is gone. And for the record he said he told Tim he would refund him 200 dollars to make it good. I told Kevin if he didn't want to then send me the 200 and I would refund Tim for the card, getting it for a good price. That was the situation. It doesn't really matter his banishment was overdue. This is a cut and paste of what I said.

How about this? If you are offering a 200 dollar refund I will just have him send me the card. I will refund him the full amount. You PP FF me 200 dollars and we call it even? But the real better thing to do would be to just refund him. But there is a way out if you want it.


LL


Morality floats to the top if you expect it. Thanks for running a good shop Leon.

[maddux31]

And BODA just stopped him right in his tracks! LOL!

He has been there for a while apparently, and made fast friends with the group:

Then I guess you're a dumbass.....Worried about it?, then don't buy the card. I have more trade references on Net54 than anybody on this forum, guaranteed..As far as the going rate, this card is graded by Beckett, NOT PSA....Holy Cow, do you not get that?? Also, I posted my email, it is: kmize1999@yahoo.com I love communicating with someone that has the IQ higher than a fireant that you obviously have...

I guess he will have to amend his Net54 references line now :eek:

https://www.blowoutforums.com/showthread.php?t=1250216

Jason Carter

[bbsports]

Usually I don't respond to these threads, but I do know Kevin for years and spoke a few times to him. This should have never gone this far from the start. Kevin knows the first rule of thumb is to send either send a computer or phone scans front and back to the buyer. I do this all the time. The buyer should then know what he wants to do. Also, if the scans are questionable, the buyer will either ask for another scan or will pass on the card. As a seller of t206 cards, I get these questions all the time. A card of the caliper, will never be hard to resell to another buyer. Kevin should know to always refund the buyer in full. This in return, he will keep his good reputation instead of having it tarnished on this site. If Kevin is still angry over this matter, just don't deal with the buyer anymore, but at least your still have a strong reputation and you can still buy and sell on this site. You and I Kevin didn't always agree, but we do have a mutual respect for each other. You do have a lot of knowledge in this hobby, but this was the right thing to do. Sometimes you have to bite your tongue over issues like this and at times like this a reputation is more important than a baseball card.

[icurnmedic]

1: I see cards as " PSA Graded Authentic" for sale frequently.

2: I have had several large purchases from the Seller and never a problem.

3: Should have just refunded in the first place. No need to bicker in a place that we all should consider a safe haven to B/S/T.

Just my opine!

[bks14sr]

That’s definitely a justified refund request. This should not have been a big deal on either end imo. As a buyer, sure it’s a disappointment to not get the expected grading outcome, but there’s never a “guarantee” when it comes to receiving a numerical grade. As a seller, that grading outcome has to be considered as well, so a potential refund would be expected. Maybe just a poor choice of words or selling practice to put the guarantee on it.

I’ve had a few abrasive moments with the guy, not the biggest fan. But, it sucks to see another guy blackballed. Hopefully there’s some resolution to satisfy all. Seems like there are easy solutions for all involved in my eyes.

-Bill

[danmckee]

No, saying something will grade is not meaning AUT in our sphere. Period. That is my thought But i am listening. And the OP asked me about this situation and if he should post it. My answer is obvious....
I don't think we want weasley semantics on our forum. But I am listening...


.

I hate grading and am by no means an expert with any of it... That being said, even I know if you say it will grade that means a numerical number. Otherwise I say guaranteed to be Authentic. And I always accept returns as it may just actually be a collector (I know that is rare now a days) and I would want him happy with his card.

[Seven]

1: I see cards as " PSA Graded Authentic" for sale frequently.

2: I have had several large purchases from the Seller and never a problem.

3: Should have just refunded in the first place. No need to bicker in a place that we all should consider a safe haven to B/S/T.

Just my opine!

I agree with this sentiment. There was zero reason to ruin his reputation over this deal, a refund should have been granted. 33 Goudey Gehrigs, even ones that grade Authentic, sell pretty easily. Someone would've taken this off Kevin's hands almost immediately.

[Throttlesteer]

It shouldn't have led to this. But Leon gave him a way out and he chose not to take it. He asked for it as far as I'm concerned.

[pokerplyr80]

I hate grading and am by no means an expert with any of it... That being said, even I know if you say it will grade that means a numerical number. Otherwise I say guaranteed to be Authentic. And I always accept returns as it may just actually be a collector (I know that is rare now a days) and I would want him happy with his card.

Does this policy only apply to raw cards, but not to cards called out on blowout as altered?

[LEHR]

I'll be glad to comment....For the final record, I offered a resolution to Leon and the buyer. And pertaining this card, Leon sent me an email himself today offering to buy the card, so boy this deal had to be a real rip-off didn't it!! But he managed to leave that out of the thread.. As far as this guy Tony Andrea, I don't even know who the Hell this guy is, period. And Leon, interesting that you are making these posts on this thread without one email to me other than the one offering to buy the card. I do have the email for anyone that would like to see.... Other than that, thanks for everything! Net54, I don't need you as you don't need me either. I do wish the best to the many buyers that I dealt with for over 11 years, thank you for that and happy holidays to you and your families...


This guy seems like a real gem to deal with.:rolleyes:

[3-2-count]

This guy seems like a real gem to deal with.:rolleyes:

His abrasiveness was never ending. For those who claim to of had a good experience with him there were many more who did not.

Good riddance!

[ullmandds]

I tried!!!! I'd like my demerits changed to stars please!!!

[bnorth]

Does this policy only apply to raw cards, but not to cards called out on blowout as altered?

There are obviously exceptions to every rule.;)

[Gorditadogg]

Leon, thanks for taking care of this board. I know it's not easy trying to manage all of us but I appreciate what you have done to make Net54 what it is.

I joined for the BST, but started reading the other forums and I am amazed by the knowledge and helpfulness of the members here. I have learned so much and am very happy I found this place.

Sent from my SM-G955U using Tapatalk

[Joe Hunter]

"Authenticity" and "Grade" are two completely different concepts. Authenticity references whether the card is real or not, while grade is an indicator of its relative condition. There can be no such thing as an "authentic grade", even though you do see that phrase used from time to time. The buyer has every expectation of receiving a refund in this situation, in my opinion.

[BRoberts]

For those posting that they are surprised Kevin "would ruin his reputation over this," if you think *this* incident ruins his reputation, you've not been paying attention.

Bill Roberts

[perezfan]

1933 Gehrig still available.

[Tao_Moko]

Am I the only one that doesn't like the look of this card? It is not a set I've ever given much attention to, but based solely on the above picture would have walked away. As far as the transaction - we are a community and sometimes bs has to be called out for buyer and/or seller conduct. This is the jury. Pretty overwhelming that a refund should be given.

After looking at the card on a large screen in my office I ruled out some initial concerns that I had. The image appeared to have discoloration and wear patterns that are consistent with reproductions but appears better when viewed at 42 inches:) Also, I don't believe Kevin would intentionally sell a reproduction(and skilled at identifying them) so my apologies to him for my above statement. I'll also add, in the spirit of removing divisiveness, that Kevin and I had a disagreement years ago and what I found was our communication turned positive through conversation. Selling miscut cards and discounting/bumping them is not a big deal to me. Having a sales pitch doesn't really bother me either. Kevin has had some pretty beautiful cards that aside from their cut presented extremely well. So, I'm being positive here and suggesting the weight and pull of the community can drive a more positive outcome in the future. Might he have changed his tune with honoring his policy if he didn't feel called out publicly? I've been around card dealers since the early eighties and though some are wonderful, there is a hefty percentage of quirky, stubborn and even outright rude ones too. I would say we are not necessarily better with him gone and we don't know what impact being gone has on his lively hood. Maybe none, but he clearly generates some income from cards. I say give him another chance to make this right according to the communities standards, review his listing style and purchase agreement and be welcomed back for another shot.

edited to ad: GO IRISH!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

[cardsagain74]

There are two sometimes seen ways of "marketing" some cards in a listing that are, at minimum, a misrepresentation (and could even be considered fraudulent advertising):

- Quoting the nr-mt BV of a low grade card (in that manner which infers that the card is worth that much)

- Omitting a qualifier from the heading of a listing and/or directly comparing pops and prices of the qualifier card to non-qualifier ones

As others have mentioned, this seller has repeatedly done some of the latter. Regardless of the situation with the Gehrig card, I think any community is better off without that kind of participant.

[Republicaninmass]

Just go and check the last sales of a few of them. Therein lies your answer. I'm all for making a fair profit on a card, but some are just an insult to one's intelligence

[cammb]

Where is the SGC screenshot that the OP mentions?

[bnorth]

There are two sometimes seen ways of "marketing" some cards in a listing that are, at minimum, a misrepresentation (and could even be considered fraudulent advertising):

- Quoting the nr-mt BV of a low grade card (in that manner which infers that the card is worth that much)

- Omitting a qualifier from the heading of a listing and/or directly comparing pops and prices of the qualifier card to non-qualifier ones

As others have mentioned, this seller has repeatedly done some of the latter. Regardless of the situation with the Gehrig card, I think any community is better off without that kind of participant.

LOL, we have one of those sellers on here.:) They acted like they were new to collecting so I PMed them a few times about how bad listing like that looked. Turns out in reality they own or at least owned a card shop because the PP account they paid me with for some cards was from a card shop.

[conor912]

There are two sometimes seen ways of "marketing" some cards in a listing that are, at minimum, a misrepresentation (and could even be considered fraudulent advertising):

- Quoting the nr-mt BV of a low grade card (in that manner which infers that the card is worth that much)

- Omitting a qualifier from the heading of a listing and/or directly comparing pops and prices of the qualifier card to non-qualifier ones

As others have mentioned, this seller has repeatedly done some of the latter. Regardless of the situation with the Gehrig card, I think any community is better off without that kind of participant.

Of all the things a seller does that bother me, these two don't even break the top 10.

[todeen]

Where is the SGC screenshot that the OP mentions?

Going to pick it up from USPS today 11/09. USPS took my signed delivery slip on Saturday that I left in my mailbox but didn't deliver said package. I promise I will post a picture when the card is in my hand.

Some of the posters in this thread state they have had smooth transactions with Kevin. I agree, my initial purchase went flawless. I paid, he delivered quickly. Very professional. It just became a different story when I asked for a refund. To me it seemed like a Target purchase: buy a vacuum, vacuum isn't what you expected, you return it with the receipt and get your money back. He was a little upset over the TPG turn-around time, I get that. But turn-around time was not in my control. After he refused refund the first time, I told him this wasn't a deal to turn into Custer's Last Stand. But he must have his reasoning, which he never made clear to either me or Leon.

[Throttlesteer]

For those posting that they are surprised Kevin "would ruin his reputation over this," if you think *this* incident ruins his reputation, you've not been paying attention.

Bill Roberts

Maybe, but I guarantee many of us who were unaware are in the know now.

[ramram]

Four and one half years of B/S/T bumps of the Wagner portrait coming to an end. :(

Rob M

P.S. Nice bst post Paul G. Just under the wire, lol.

[Tabe]

"Authenticity" and "Grade" are two completely different concepts. Authenticity references whether the card is real or not, while grade is an indicator of its relative condition. There can be no such thing as an "authentic grade", even though you do see that phrase used from time to time. The buyer has every expectation of receiving a refund in this situation, in my opinion.

Exactly. To me, a PSA slab that says "Authentic" is not graded, it's just verified as being a real card. To be graded, it's gotta have a number on it.

[Mikehealer]

I don't always adhere to the old adage, "if you can't say something good about someone then say nothing at all", so I'll say this about Kevin

[Shoeless Moe]

Four and one half years of B/S/T bumps of the Wagner portrait coming to an end. :(

Rob M

P.S. Nice bst post Paul G. Just under the wire, lol.

Leon just closed the thread - the most viewed BST thread 25,008 Views - that's like Cy Young's win record, I can;t see anyone sniffing it.

The man was ahead of time. No wait.......nevermind......I'm thinking of the fake Rolex he's probably wearing.

[AddieJoss]

5 years ago, I bought a couple cards from Kevin. After that he and I negotiated another deal, he accepted and then backed out of the deal ($200) and didn’t sell the cards. I was Not out any money but it was unprofessional, and never bought anything from him again, and would have if his posts were from a different seller.
Cory Weiser

[todeen]

Here are the shots. Not slabbed. I don't know what I needed to click to get it slabbed. Like I said, this was my first submission.

But my other submissions came back graded. I really like the black background.

https://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20201110/c4794b321d67d066b563cc557d98a4d7.jpghttps://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20201110/9fc4198e106df01cf8216c44d27f4a70.jpghttps://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20201110/f09d7f382a684bb84ed8cb2b21b088ab.jpghttps://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20201110/738ece509482f96e96156b242c394968.jpghttps://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20201110/47db8eb73ae4e53c938de845715a99a6.jpg

Sent from my SAMSUNG-SM-G930A using Tapatalk

[bnorth]

Here are the shots. Not slabbed. I don't know what I needed to click to get it cleaned. Like I said, this was my first submission.

But my other submissions came back graded. I really like the black background.

https://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20201110/c4794b321d67d066b563cc557d98a4d7.jpghttps://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20201110/9fc4198e106df01cf8216c44d27f4a70.jpghttps://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20201110/f09d7f382a684bb84ed8cb2b21b088ab.jpghttps://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20201110/738ece509482f96e96156b242c394968.jpghttps://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20201110/47db8eb73ae4e53c938de845715a99a6.jpg

Sent from my SAMSUNG-SM-G930A using Tapatalk

There seemed to be some interest in it. Put it in the BST section at a break even price. Best of luck.:)

[Casey2296]

There seemed to be some interest in it. Put it in the BST section at a break even price. Best of luck.:)

That card carries a premium now, it's famous after the last couple of days...

[Shoeless Moe]

I'm a card idiot mind you, so bare with me.

What about it is altered?

If it's the size, can you lay it over another Goudey you have and take a pix?

I'd like to see the difference.

[uyu906]

Good riddance . . . IMHO

[ullmandds]

I'm a card idiot mind you, so bare with me.

What about it is altered?

If it's the size, can you lay it over another Goudey you have and take a pix?

I'd like to see the difference.

my guess is color added...size looks good.

[perezfan]

I am guessing it's the corners that account for the "grade".

Rather than natural corner wear, it looks like the corners (at one point in time) were artificially rounded by a scissors. Just a guess, without having it in-hand.

[ullmandds]

I am guessing it's the corners that account for the "grade".

Rather than natural corner wear, it looks like the corners (at one point in time) were artificially rounded by a scissors. Just a guess, without having it in-hand.

Its possible...I'm no grading expert. BUT...It seems they could have been in a stack heavily handled and put in a kids pocket over and over...that would certainly round corners uniformly...all the cards in the stack.

[68Hawk]

Kevin clearly screwed the pooch.

However, as a buyer/seller of graded cards for 20 years, those on here judging an Authentic grade as not a 'grade' are incorrect.

A grade refers to an assessment, not a number.

Many many many many times I've been asked what grade a card received that I put in to a TPG. If the card can be holdered, even with an assessment of only 'authentic', that is the grade it received. There is even a column on all the big three TPGers that is for Auth. It is a grade, and sometimes will be considered superior to a 1 2 or 3 if fantastic eye appeal is of value.
This will happen regularly to cards like Old Judges, strip cards, and famously the 52' Topps Mantle.

Kevin is all kinds of wrong because he's a douche and finds the few extra dollars he can make more important than his hobby cred.
However, if this card WOULD grade Authentic because of an alteration like trimming and not meeting minimum size, and the card had indeed been entombed, he would technically be fine.

The first isn't mine...bummer.
The second I've owned for nearly 15 years.

https://hosting.photobucket.com/albums/ad12/flinchfree/sports%20cards%20and%20memorabilia/t206plankmissingcolor.jpg

https://hosting.photobucket.com/images/ad12/flinchfree/49leafpaigefront.JPG

[ullmandds]

Kevin clearly screwed the pooch.

However, as a buyer/seller of graded cards for 20 years, those on here judging an Authentic grade as not a 'grade' are incorrect.

A grade refers to an assessment, not a number.

Many many many many times I've been asked what grade a card received that I put in to a TPG. If the card can be holdered, even with an assessment of only 'authentic', that is the grade it received. There is even a column on all the big three TPGers that is for Auth. It is a grade, and sometimes will be considered superior to a 1 2 or 3 if fantastic eye appeal is of value.
This will happen regularly to cards like Old Judges, strip cards, and famously the 52' Topps Mantle.

Kevin is all kinds of wrong because he's a douche and finds the few extra dollars he can make more important than his hobby cred.
However, if this card WOULD grade Authentic because of an alteration like trimming and not meeting minimum size, and the card had indeed been entombed, he would technically be fine.

I tend to agree with this mindset...especially the first sentence in the fifth paragraph.

In this day and age it seems A is a grade?

[Tao_Moko]

Tough crowd. I reflect on the soft, pink, pot-bellied and balding crowds at shows and bet none of those guys are here slinging their daggers at Kevin. None of those briefcase weilding or fanny pack wearing(magnifier loupe at the ready) gentlemen passing their judgement here. If they were then I'm certain they would be equally as willing to throw the dagger in person. It's important for middle to advanced aged men to stand tall against the face of the beater card adversary. Of course you should be able to buy a beater and expect to get more than a beater. Caveat Venditor! Mount up prewar baseball collectors and off to forum war!!!! Grab your loupes and protective sleeves! Someone just bumped a post!!!! There's fantasy sports, golf at stake and latte's with special sprinkles to get to. Let no overpriced or too frequently a bump get in your way!!!! It's "go time" men.

[todeen]

I'm a card idiot mind you, so bare with me.



What about it is altered?



If it's the size, can you lay it over another Goudey you have and take a pix?



I'd like to see the difference.Laid over the Tris Speaker and they appeared to be the same size. I did that before I shipped / submitted them and couldn't tell a difference with my fingers running over the edges.

Sent from my SAMSUNG-SM-G930A using Tapatalk

[CobbSpikedMe]

I have to disagree that an "A" or "AUT" is a grade. It is an opinion of authenticity but not a grade. A grade is a numerical assessment of condition. When a number grade is assigned the authenticity is implied. But without a number it's not a grade of the card. Poor is the lowest grade, not Authentic.

[drmondobueno]

-Integrity-

The choice between what is convenient and what is right.

+1

[Joe Hunter]

Kevin clearly screwed the pooch.

However, as a buyer/seller of graded cards for 20 years, those on here judging an Authentic grade as not a 'grade' are incorrect.

A grade refers to an assessment, not a number.

Many many many many times I've been asked what grade a card received that I put in to a TPG. If the card can be holdered, even with an assessment of only 'authentic', that is the grade it received. There is even a column on all the big three TPGers that is for Auth. It is a grade, and sometimes will be considered superior to a 1 2 or 3 if fantastic eye appeal is of value.
This will happen regularly to cards like Old Judges, strip cards, and famously the 52' Topps Mantle.

Kevin is all kinds of wrong because he's a douche and finds the few extra dollars he can make more important than his hobby cred.
However, if this card WOULD grade Authentic because of an alteration like trimming and not meeting minimum size, and the card had indeed been entombed, he would technically be fine.

The first isn't mine...bummer.
The second I've owned for nearly 15 years.

https://hosting.photobucket.com/albums/ad12/flinchfree/sports%20cards%20and%20memorabilia/t206plankmissingcolor.jpg

https://hosting.photobucket.com/images/ad12/flinchfree/49leafpaigefront.JPG

Nope. Directly from the PSA Website:
"Authentication is the process of verifying the originality or genuineness of a trading card. Grading is assessing the quality and condition of a trading card using PSA's 10-point grading scale. Grading can only take place AFTER a trading card has been deemed AUTHENTIC."
I believe other grading companies concur this philosophy.

[ullmandds]

Nope. Directly from the PSA Website:
"Authentication is the process of verifying the originality or genuineness of a trading card. Grading is assessing the quality and condition of a trading card using PSA's 10-point grading scale. Grading can only take place AFTER a trading card has been deemed AUTHENTIC."
I believe other grading companies concur this philosophy.

I stand corrected...although all this is is PSA's opinion. I likely have more experience than most of their graders...so my opinion is worth more!!!!

[Peter_Spaeth]

IMO the technical debates about what "grade" means are beside the point. Selling in this community has advantages such as no fees, and if a buyer isn't happy and requests a return within a reasonable time, a seller who wants to sell in this community should just suck it up and take the card back out of good will. All the more so when the buyer has a good faith belief the card was not what he expected.

[steve B]

my guess is color added...size looks good.

Yeah, that lighter area from right around his elbow going towards the right looks like it's either been treated or painted in.

[bigfanNY]

This card did not come back Authentic it came back Altered. Which is not a grade, it is a qualifier. In this case looks like the dreded Altered Stock. Really harsh term for stored in a screwdown that was too tight. In the OP the buyer stated that he would have been fine if it was in a Authentic holder. But, he was not ok with an Authentic with one or more qualifiers.
I am late here but I see this as the issue. If I buy a card that is Guaranteed to grade. I 100% would not accept a card that came back trimmed, or Altered stock or recolored. And I agree with OP seller should have offered refund.
Jonathan

[steve B]

Tough crowd. I reflect on the soft, pink, pot-bellied and balding crowds at shows and bet none of those guys are here slinging their daggers at Kevin. None of those briefcase weilding or fanny pack wearing(magnifier loupe at the ready) gentlemen passing their judgement here. If they were then I'm certain they would be equally as willing to throw the dagger in person. It's important for middle to advanced aged men to stand tall against the face of the beater card adversary. Of course you should be able to buy a beater and expect to get more than a beater. Caveat Venditor! Mount up prewar baseball collectors and off to forum war!!!! Grab your loupes and protective sleeves! Someone just bumped a post!!!! There's fantasy sports, golf at stake and latte's with special sprinkles to get to. Let no overpriced or too frequently a bump get in your way!!!! It's "go time" men.

Hmmm....
soft? - Maybe?
Pink? - I suppose, not all that pale, but not like I've been working outdoors all summer either.
Pot bellied - depends on where you draw that line. Not svelte, but not awful.
Balding - sorta, I am getting a bit old.

Briefcase - Nope
Fanny pack - No, briefcase would be far more likely.

Would I throw down the dagger in person on someone selling something as something it's not?

Yeah, for sure.
Whether It's Kevin, who you seem to imply is some sort of card selling badass*, or some name calling kid.

Just remember, Old people have lost most of their pride (Goes with the balding and fatness you'll understand someday) and are not at all above fighting dirty. Or pissing people off.
---------------------------
* Worked at a dealership and one of the mechanics was a former genuine Hells Angel. Met him again a few years later, at a card show. Where he was dealing.... hockey cards. Nice guy but...

Hey Gary,
yeah?
Can I ask a question you might not want to answer?
Sure, worst I'll do is say get lost
What's the tattoo that says "Hook" mean?
It's a nickname. I took a guys calf off with a meathook once in a brawl. (Yeah, he was also very open about stuff if asked directly)

He was a really nice calm guy pretty much all the time.
Wherever you ended up Gary I hope the card dealing worked out great.

[tjb1952tjb]

His abrasiveness was never ending. For those who claim to of had a good experience with him there were many more who did not.

Good riddance!

A very BIG +1. Adios!!!

[Casey2296]

Hmmm....
soft? - Maybe?
Pink? - I suppose, not all that pale, but not like I've been working outdoors all summer either.
Pot bellied - depends on where you draw that line. Not svelte, but not awful.
Balding - sorta, I am getting a bit old.

Briefcase - Nope
Fanny pack - No, briefcase would be far more likely.

Would I throw down the dagger in person on someone selling something as something it's not?

Yeah, for sure.
Whether It's Kevin, who you seem to imply is some sort of card selling badass*, or some name calling kid.

Just remember, Old people have lost most of their pride (Goes with the balding and fatness you'll understand someday) and are not at all above fighting dirty. Or pissing people off.
---------------------------
* Worked at a dealership and one of the mechanics was a former genuine Hells Angel. Met him again a few years later, at a card show. Where he was dealing.... hockey cards. Nice guy but...

Hey Gary,
yeah?
Can I ask a question you might not want to answer?
Sure, worst I'll do is say get lost
What's the tattoo that says "Hook" mean?
It's a nickname. I took a guys calf off with a meathook once in a brawl. (Yeah, he was also very open about stuff if asked directly)

He was a really nice calm guy pretty much all the time.
Wherever you ended up Gary I hope the card dealing worked out great.

I like the cut of your jib Steve.

[Bigdaddy]

Four and one half years of B/S/T bumps of the Wagner portrait coming to an end. :(


And not a day too soon. One of the reasons I ignored his bst posts.

[Tabe]

Thought to myself, "what do the grading companies have to say?" So I checked the PSA and SGC sites for their grading scales. Neither company lists "authentic" or anything else non-numeric as a possible grade.

[68Hawk]

Thought to myself, "what do the grading companies have to say?" So I checked the PSA and SGC sites for their grading scales. Neither company lists "authentic" or anything else non-numeric as a possible grade.

Not sure if this will work, don't know how to do a screen capture and load it...

Here is a link to the PSA pop report for 1952 Topps Cards.
https://www.psacard.com/pop/baseball-cards/1952/topps/49722

Reading across the row left to right:

Card no (1) / Name (Andy Pafko) / Grade / pop for column headed Auth / and then the population for each numerical grade column eg 1, 1.5, - 10. / Total

Authentic is clearly listed as a grade in the population for the cards that have been graded of that player, it has it's own column directly adjacent to the numberical ones..
I used a calculator to be sure, and indeed the Authentic pop numbers are included in the total population.

If Authentic is not a grade they are doing a great job of misdirection.

Also, below each Auth/numerical grade option are a row for the cards that have been assigned a + assessment and a further row for those that have been given qualifiers.
Authentic graded cards are not given a separate demarcation or row, they are included and indeed graphed as a graded part of the population.

Interestingly it seems BGS have changed their format for cards (since I last looked) and no longer have the Auth designation listed whatsoever.... I haven't been on SGC's website for yonks since they were 'down' for what seemed an eternity.
Strange for Beckett not to offer any statistics for Authentic cards, regardless how you graph it I would think collectors would find the population number valuable in assessing relative scarcity and price?

[Rich Falvo]

This card did not come back Authentic it came back Altered.

I think a lot of people are missing this point.

Personally, I’ve often though of Authentic as grade of less than 1. I’ve had cards in such bad shape that they didn’t deserve a 1 grade, so they were just marked Authentic. But, if I was buying a card that I was told would grade, I’d be expecting a number.

[toledo_mudhen]

I think a lot of people are missing this point.

Personally, I’ve often though of Authentic as grade of less than 1. I’ve had cards in such bad shape that they didn’t deserve a 1 grade, so they were just marked Authentic. But, if I was buying a card that I was told would grade, I’d be expecting a number.

So then it appears there are 2 additional grades - Authentic and Altered

Which is the better "grade" - I would assume Altered or no?

[Seven]

So then it appears there are 2 additional grades - Authentic and Altered

Which is the better "grade" - I would assume Altered or no?

In my opinion, it's altered. I have a couple of cards that are labeled Altered that were slightly trimmed, The eye appeal on both of them is very strong.

[Aquarian Sports Cards]

Anyone who says ALTERED is a grade when someone uses the phrase "Guaranteed to grade" please stand up and be counted so I can make sure I never do business with you.

[Huysmans]

Tough crowd. I reflect on the soft, pink, pot-bellied and balding crowds at shows and bet none of those guys are here slinging their daggers at Kevin. None of those briefcase weilding or fanny pack wearing(magnifier loupe at the ready) gentlemen passing their judgement here. If they were then I'm certain they would be equally as willing to throw the dagger in person. It's important for middle to advanced aged men to stand tall against the face of the beater card adversary. Of course you should be able to buy a beater and expect to get more than a beater. Caveat Venditor! Mount up prewar baseball collectors and off to forum war!!!! Grab your loupes and protective sleeves! Someone just bumped a post!!!! There's fantasy sports, golf at stake and latte's with special sprinkles to get to. Let no overpriced or too frequently a bump get in your way!!!! It's "go time" men.

Best post I've read in this thread.
But let's not be too harsh... most of the gentleman who pile on in these posts probably don't realize that they're senile old dinosaurs.... or maybe they can't remember?? :D

[Republicaninmass]

my guess is color added...size looks good.

or removed. On the back there is a light en mark above the "k" in New York

[icurnmedic]

Best post I've read in this thread.
But let's not be too harsh... most of the gentleman who pile on in these posts probably don't realize that they're senile old dinosaurs.... or maybe they can't remember?? :D

Now that is funny!!

[edhans]

or removed. On the back there is a light en mark above the "k" in New York

+1

That's what I thought when I first saw it.

[Gorditadogg]

Anyone who says ALTERED is a grade when someone uses the phrase "Guaranteed to grade" please stand up and be counted so I can make sure I never do business with you.Amen to that. Since when is "doesn't qualify for a grade because it's been altered" a grade?

Sent from my SM-G955U using Tapatalk

[HawkFan70]

I completely agree with Scott. If you guarantee it to grade it means a numeric grade, if not why do you need to use two statements?

"Fair condition....I guarantee the card to be authentic, and will grade,"

[Snapolit1]

And not a day too soon. One of the reasons I ignored his bst posts.

Steadily got inquiries on it. . . . better move fast.

Sort of wonder why he never just gave the damm thing to an AH.

[griffon512]

Anyone who says ALTERED is a grade when someone uses the phrase "Guaranteed to grade" please stand up and be counted so I can make sure I never do business with you.

Best post I've read in this thread.
But let's not be too harsh... most of the gentleman who pile on in these posts probably don't realize that they're senile old dinosaurs.... or maybe they can't remember?? :D

+1

[Oscar_Stanage]

"I guarantee the card to be authentic, and will grade"

In our hobby, this unequivocally means the card will receive a number grade. I have little patience for people who twist words, pretend they mean something else and then attempt to make you feel stupid.

There are plenty of sellers who will take cards back no questions asked, where we don't need silly little protections, platitudes, and meaningless guarantees.

And there are buyers who will find those sellers and send them $1000s via PPFF for the cards they want. and not think twice.

[Kevin]

With the amount of bad press this guy is getting, I think I might change my user name...

[cammb]

If the card was slabbed SGC would have given a grade of Authentic. There is no grade of Altered. I dont believe I have ever seen a SGC card labeled as Authentic with altered also mentioned, but I could be wrong. The OP didn't check the box to have it slabbed even it is authentic.

[JustinD]

or removed. On the back there is a light en mark above the "k" in New York

My thoughts exactly. I see no trim, paper alteration by screw down or man on the grassy knoll. If that ink was erased even slightly it’s an alt grade.

As someone who actually prefers an visually pleasing auth, alt or “1” with tiny paper loss but looks great, I like the card. I would always go with presentation over grade. That said the card should have been taken back nicely and I am sure it would have sold quickly even in an alt slab. Totally siding with the OP on this.

That said it will be a bummer to not have someone to completely overreact and start denigrating my entire family if he disagrees with anything...darn. I am sure a newbie will step up to the plate soon.

[BRoberts]

Anyone who says ALTERED is a grade when someone uses the phrase "Guaranteed to grade" please stand up and be counted so I can make sure I never do business with you.

Thank you, Scott, for your continued leadership within the hobby.

[perezfan]

Steadily got inquiries on it. . . . better move fast.

Sort of wonder why he never just gave the damm thing to an AH.

Same here...

Dozens of times, I wanted to respond to just one of those endless threads, to say JUST CONSIGN THE DAMNED THING!

But thought it was bad form to hijack someone’s BST post (even for a shady seller and reneger). So just bit my tongue time and again.

If nothing else, this thread provides solid evidence that what goes around comes around.

[Fuddjcal]

I too had a disappointing experience with Mize years ago and vowed never to speak or deal with him again. In fact I refuse to open any of his threads (except this one ;) )

As small as this community and hobby are its amazing that someone would behave this way so blatantly time and time again.

Reputation is everything.

Yes it is and that's why I buzz right by his listings. I have completed probably over 50K worth of deals from forum members and never had a problem. Nothing but quality guys for the most part with a couple of dopey MCdope dopes.... I think he'll do the right thing....eventually. Either just make a simple refund for a guy who's not happy or shove it down his throat and risk his reputation further. Good Luck!

[todeen]

As someone who actually prefers an visually pleasing auth, alt or “1” with tiny paper loss but looks great, I like the card. I would always go with presentation over grade. That said the card should have been taken back nicely and I am sure it would have sold quickly even in an alt slab. Totally siding with the OP on this.


I buy low grade vintage cards as well. That's what's in my budget. I just know from a couple other cards I purchased in the past that didn't turn out as described by the seller, that the feeling of being duped or swindled takes the luster and excitement away from the card, and I just don't enjoy it as I originally thought I would. It's still the same card I saw in June, I just feel differently about it.

[Leon]

Yes it is and that's why I buzz right by his listings. I have completed probably over 50K worth of deals from forum members and never had a problem. Nothing but quality guys for the most part with a couple of dopey MCdope dopes.... I think he'll do the right thing....eventually. Either just make a simple refund for a guy who's not happy or shove it down his throat and risk his reputation further. Good Luck!

That train has left the station.

[steve B]

Best post I've read in this thread.
But let's not be too harsh... most of the gentleman who pile on in these posts probably don't realize that they're senile old dinosaurs.... or maybe they can't remember?? :D

And yet we still answer your questions....

Old dinosaurs don't get lattes with special sprinkles.

We get coffee flavored coffee.

Latte with sprinkles is a millennial thing.

[bnorth]

And yet we still answer your questions....

Old dinosaurs don't get lattes with special sprinkles.

We get coffee flavored coffee.

Latte with sprinkles is a millennial thing.

Well that sucks, I am old and I love the sprinkles, my wife does tease me about them though.:)

[bnorth]

I buy low grade vintage cards as well. That's what's in my budget. I just know from a couple other cards I purchased in the past that didn't turn out as described by the seller, that the feeling of being duped or swindled takes the luster and excitement away from the card, and I just don't enjoy it as I originally thought I would. It's still the same card I saw in June, I just feel differently about it.

I had pretty much the same exact thing happen to me a couple years ago. Also from a fellow member but a more expensive card.

I fricken hated the card at first. After some time I realized it was still a good deal for the card. Then weirdly it became one of my favorite cards.

[Exhibitman]

"I guarantee the card to be authentic, and will grade"

In our hobby, this unequivocally means the card will receive a number grade. I have little patience for people who twist words, pretend they mean something else and then attempt to make you feel stupid.

There are plenty of sellers who will take cards back no questions asked, where we don't need silly little protections, platitudes, and meaningless guarantees.

And there are buyers who will find those sellers and send them $1000s via PPFF for the cards they want. and not think twice.

+1

The guarantee said it all IMO. No encapsulation and returned with an ALT is a refusal to grade. Case closed.

Good lesson for all of us: regardless of who might prevail in a court case, as peers and members of this community (and sometimes even friends) there should be a higher degree of consideration for one another than the bare-knuckles outcome of law or caveat emptor.

And FWIW, I am a proud card-carrying member of the lowest grade card collectors of America:

https://photos.imageevent.com/exhibitman/miscellaneous4/1952%20Topps%20Robinson.JPG

[ALR-bishop]

Adam--you should check out the 53 Mantle in the gem thread. It looks like a good fit

[Throttlesteer]

For every one of these, there are hundreds of positive transactions on BST. I've had nothing but great, well-communicated deals on here.

[todeen]

I had pretty much the same exact thing happen to me a couple years ago. Also from a fellow member but a more expensive card.

I fricken hated the card at first. After some time I realized it was still a good deal for the card. Then weirdly it became one of my favorite cards.

The first card I bought I couldn't look at without getting angry. I overpaid on a 61T lot for a 1961 Mantle 300, but I needed it for the set. Big crease down the middle not disclosed, and it didn't show up on photos. I eventually sold it. The second card I bought I still own, same thing as you, my feelings changed about it over time.

[todeen]

For every one of these, there are hundreds of positive transactions on BST. I've had nothing but great, well-communicated deals on here.

+1 All my other deals on this site have been fantastic

[Leon]

+1 All my other deals on this site have been fantastic

And that is the way we want to keep it. Our members are the best defense.
.

[vintagebaseballcardguy]

The BST here is one of my favorite places to purchase cards.

[slantycouch]

For every one of these, there are hundreds of positive transactions on BST. I've had nothing but great, well-communicated deals on here.

+1. And that's thanks to this community and Leon.

[Aquarian Sports Cards]

I had pretty much the same exact thing happen to me a couple years ago. Also from a fellow member but a more expensive card.

I fricken hated the card at first. After some time I realized it was still a good deal for the card. Then weirdly it became one of my favorite cards.

So now you're taking Kevin's side, sheesh make up your mind!:p

[Aquarian Sports Cards]

FTR I've never had a bad BST deal, sometimes I'm the jerk who's slow to pay because I lose track of things, but buying and selling both have been great experiences.

[bnorth]

So now you're taking Kevin's side, sheesh make up your mind!:p

LOL, I would never take Kevin's side. Just saying sometimes a bad deal isn't as bad as it seems at first.:eek:

[Tabe]

If Authentic is not a grade they are doing a great job of misdirection.
Wait, you want PSA to be consistent???? How long have you been collecting? :)

[68Hawk]

Wait, you want PSA to be consistent???? How long have you been collecting? :)

So true.
Only ever purchased PSA graded cards where I thought I was willing to take a flying leap on accurate grading with zero disappointment if it only garnered an Auth GRADE in an SGC or BGS holder. ;-)

[Cliff Bowman]

Mr. Mize is now banned from BlowOut.

[Eric72]

Mr. Mize is now banned from BlowOut.

My goodness. He appears to be alienating people (or burning bridges) rather quickly.

[Johnny630]

Can we stop beating this dead horse and move on.

[BRoberts]

Can we stop beating this dead horse and move on.

Actually, no. If we hold true to the Kevin Mize spirit, this thread should be bumped 50 times over the next 18 months, with no resolution achieved.

[ullmandds]

Actually, no. If we hold true to the Kevin Mize spirit, this thread should be bumped 50 times over the next 18 months, with no resolution achieved.

this is true! In the spirit of Kevin's BST...this thread must live on!!!!

[Leon]

this is true! In the spirit of Kevin's BST...this thread must live on!!!!

While that is certainly true I have to agree with the poster above, the horse is unfortunately in horsey heaven. I wish Kevin all the best in his future endeavors.