Would you buy from PWCC?

[zsk]

I know there’s been a lot written here and several skeptics of their products, but just curious where the board sits on personally purchasing from PWCC. As someone relatively new to vintage, they certainly have great eye appeal cards, but I’m not sure I can convince myself to buy given what I’ve read here.

[Throttlesteer]

I will save you the pain from the virtual tomato throwing and suggest you search the previous threads. There are similar ones regarding people's willingness to buy or not buy from PWCC.

[bnorth]

I know there’s been a lot written here and several skeptics of their products, but just curious where the board sits on personally purchasing from PWCC. As someone relatively new to vintage, they certainly have great eye appeal cards, but I’m not sure I can convince myself to buy given what I’ve read here.

No and I have felt that way for many years.

[Tyruscobb]

I will buy from any person/entity if the terms and conditions are appropriate - i.e. if the price is right. I don’t discriminate against a good deal.

[111gecko]

Sometimes you just really need the card and they seem to always have it..

[Kenny Cole]

No.

[Cliff Bowman]

If they had something extremely rare that I needed I would certainly bid on it but I'm sure it would end at some astronomical price way beyond my offer, legit bids or not. I have never won anything from them and only one time with Probstein in over twenty years on eBay. Like someone used to say, Stuff Trumps All.

[Casey2296]

I'll look at their 1500 card offering and choose maybe 3 cards to watch and while everybody is tripping over themselves overbidding for the fancy stuff, I'll quietly set limit bids and if I get it I get it.

For example: While everybody was salivating over Jackson's, Ruth's and Mantle's I was able to pick up a 1914 Cracker Jack Marquard for under market.

[CobbSpikedMe]

Would not buy from them for any card they offer. I just can't bring myself to give them any of my money after reading what they were involved in and are likely still involved in. No card is worth my self respect. Sorry.

[Ronnie73]

I used to scan through every T206 auction PWCC had each month but during the past year, I don't anymore and have maybe 5 specific eBay searches for T206's from PWCC, so if they do happen to list one of those five cards, I can take a closer look and if it fits what I'm looking for, I add it to my watch list. I basically have a price ahead of time that I'm comfortable bidding up to. If it goes beyond that price before auction end, I just let it go. If not, I manually bid my max in the final seconds to avoid any artificial up bidding. If I win, great. If I'm outbid, that's fine too. There's never been a problem with slow shipping or bad packaging. That's never been the issue. The issues were always the shill bidding and the actual owners of the cards bidding up their own items. That's why if you manually bid in the last seconds and only bid up to what your comfortable paying, you will never have an issue. Too many people get caught up into being the high bidder throughout the entire auction. That's a dangerous move. There's also the people that turn the bidding into a real competition and have to win, regardless of cost. Just to be the winner. When many times winning the card is actually a losing move. Just play it smart. Know your lane and know when to bail when something doesn't seem right or feel right. That is my entire PWCC strategy. Plus staying away from newer purposely manufactured rarities that sparkle.

[Tabe]

Would not buy from them for any card they offer. I just can't bring myself to give them any of my money after reading what they were involved in and are likely still involved in. No card is worth my self respect. Sorry.

Same here. It's obvious Probstein is not honest.

[scooter729]

I'll play devil's advocate - I consigned an expensive ($8K - $10K) card with PWCC that sold last month. I can assure I didn't shill bid or have anyone do so for me.

With 4 days left, it had already reached an all-time high for the card, and then ended another 20% higher than that by the time it was done.

I don't understand why, but I watched a bidding war take place with 8 days left between two people, and another one with 4-5 days left. We all know about sniping and waiting until the last second to bid, but I think other people may just have other strategies - bid early and scare people off, maybe? I don't understand it and wouldn't do it myself, but others do.

So with all that said, I'm sure there are plenty of issues with PWCC having shill bidders and other issues - but there are 100% legit auctions which do run through them as well, and at least some of those record prices are real.

Scott S@r!@n

[trambo]

There have been a few PWCC cards I would've really liked to have made a run for over the past year or so. Can't pull the trigger and not planning to change. I really don't look at their stuff much, either.

[mq711]

No, would never buy from them, doesn’t matter the item or price.

[RedsFan1941]

i used to buy a lot from pwcc. then I didn't after their practices came to light. i made many many posts about not buying from them. that lasted for about a year. then they had a t206 that I just had to have. so i bid and won. but now, once again i am not doing business with them. until they have another card i want, no pwcc for me!

[Oscar_Stanage]

reputation and trust is everything for me when it's my money. In transactions on this site, I have sent people money PPFF that I do not even know... and I don't think twice. but if someone has ever taken advantage of others over money, they are not worth my time.

[hcv123]

I used to buy from them and sell through them. After what's unfolded with "slabgate" and their part in it not to mention the shilling, I have not bid since. They also returned a consignment of a super rare item that was damaged in shipping or in their possession and never made good on it after saying they would. Too many reputable sellers with integrity to waste my time and money with them.

[perezfan]

I have a strict policy of not doing business with criminals and fraudsters.

So I don't even look at the listings, much less bid.

[texmrsport]

No to them and Probstein. Won't support horrible people. Plenty of other quality dealers to buy from.

[JollyElm]

No frickin' way!!!
All of my ebay searches include these words:
-(deans, pwcc)

[brianp-beme]

Over the years I purchased a handful of low value group lots at decent prices, and received consistently good service. However, since everything came out, I haven't bid on anything and only check them about 2 to 3 times a year to see if their vintage offerings have decreased. Plenty of other places to send my money and not support such an outfit, and as a result I avoid feeling icky about myself.

brianp(arker)-beme

[BruceinGa]

I have bought many T206's from them in the past 4 years, glad I did. I got them (most) for great prices.
I now am selling my T206 collection. Last month I sold 50, graded 5-7 and starting last Saturday I'm selling another 90, also graded 5-7. I don't shill bid or do anything else deemed unethethical.

[Lorewalker]

Personally I do not even look at their listings. If they are offering it, I do not need it. Even if I did need it, odds are it will be shilled and/or is altered. But I am in the minority because I hear prices and consignments are as strong as ever.

[bobbyw8469]

Personally I do not even look at their listings. If they are offering it, I do not need it. Even if I did need it, odds are it will be shilled and/or is altered. But I am in the minority because I hear prices and consignments are as strong as ever.

The train hasn't skipped a beat.

[Bigdaddy]

Nope, there is no piece of cardboard that I need that bad.

[Lorewalker]

The train hasn't skipped a beat.

Hoping the guys still buying from PWCC are not the same guys complaining that the grading companies are not doing their job.

[RL]

nope

[Snapolit1]

I think a lot of hard core collectors would reach down and take a card out of the inner coat pocket out of dying man on the sidewalk if it was needed bad enough.

[Yankees1964]

I try and avoid them. I have plenty of good contacts and many other places to buy cards from. Between the folks on Net54 and some FB groups, may wallet is always light!

[Leon]

Everyone in this thread needs to read the rule at the top of every page, in bold letters. Please put your full name next to your post or edit your comments accordingly. Makes no difference to me except the rule is the rule. :) Thanks

Here is a CDV because every thread needs a card.. This wasn't acquired with the company being spoken about.

https://luckeycards.com/cdv1868c.jpg

[ullmandds]

I think a lot of hard core collectors would reach down and take a card out of the inner coat pocket out of dying man on the sidewalk if it was needed bad enough.

Well...what does he need it for anyway!!!! Only if it were a dots miller w/nadja back!!! I try not to business with unsavories in the hobby...but its hard! I got this in the mail this week...i didnt even realize it was a pwcc auction...oops!

[Exhibitman]

I think a lot of hard core collectors would reach down and take a card out of the inner coat pocket out of dying man on the sidewalk if it was needed bad enough.

That's a great visual, and so true. Thanks for the chuckle. Reminds me obliquely of something I noticed at the first Chicago national I attended. The first night the hotels were overrun with hookers. The next night they were all gone. Collectors are not going to waste card money on that.

As for the OP I decline to answer on the grounds that the answer may tend to incriminate me.

[Gradedcardman]

Sure, at my price.

[aloondilana]

PWCC is perfectly fine to buy from.

[BobbyVCP]

I have a strict policy of not doing business with criminals and fraudsters.

So I don't even look at the listings, much less bid.

Then you have a very small list of vendors you buy from in this hobby....LOL

[Leon]

Then you have a very small list of vendors you buy from in this hobby....LOL

I couldn't disagree more. I think the vast majority of folks/dealers are honest. But maybe I am naive?

[Huysmans]

Hoping the guys still buying from PWCC are not the same guys complaining that the grading companies are not doing their job.

Welcome to 2020 and modern society, where hypocrisy isn't frowned upon anymore.

[Goudey77]

Yes, they serve the community. PWCC consigned cards are as good as anyone elses.

[judsonhamlin]

Yes, they serve the community. PWCC consigned cards are as good as anyone elses.

And if they're not, they can always make them better.

[jchcollins]

I don't recall on what, but eBay tells me I've done business with PWCC before. Anymore - no, not really. I collect mostly midgrade postwar on a budget - there is nothing I'm after that PWCC has an exclusive on that dozens / hundreds of other honest dealers and sellers online don't already have in spades. I think both PWCC and PSA did a pretty poor job of responding to the allegations that were leveled at them.

[Lorewalker]

then they had a t206 that I just had to have. so i bid and won. but now, once again i am not doing business with them. until they have another card i want, no pwcc for me!

I am not picking on Ronnie but this is what goes on with most collectors. Nothing wrong with that. I find it hard to walk past the Entenmann's "fake" chocolate donuts without grabbing a box.

[Goudey77]

I get that most posting on this subject is making a statement through their actions. If that is the case then look into your TPG's (PSA comes to mind) do you stop buying anything PSA graded? Because of the potential issues surrounding their business?

Let's not be hypocritical here. Pointing fingers can't stop at one source.

[Republicaninmass]

If you care about the slab, it's fine. The Caveat, many cards are altered, and others that can achieve a higher grade are shilled so high there is barely any meat on the bone. Low grade, rare cards I'm sure you are fine. High grade, playing with fire, dont cry if you get burned

[vintagewhitesox]

yes

[Lorewalker]

I get that most posting on this subject is making a statement through their actions. If that is the case then look into your TPG's (PSA comes to mind) do you stop buying anything PSA graded? Because of the potential issues surrounding their business?

Let's not be hypocritical here. Pointing fingers can't stop at one source.

Sorta get your point...I stated something about that earlier however we do not have as many options with TPG as we do with places to buy cards. There are lots of other outlets that come with far less issues.

[jchcollins]

I get that most posting on this subject is making a statement through their actions. If that is the case then look into your TPG's (PSA comes to mind) do you stop buying anything PSA graded? Because of the potential issues surrounding their business?

Let's not be hypocritical here. Pointing fingers can't stop at one source.

I agree with you in theory, but the reality is that PSA is just so pervasive. Professional grading certainly has it's faults, but if I'm buying a $100 card that I'm not able to physically inspect first online, I'm going to want something in a slab. I am an SGC fan and will always try to find their slabs first, but in many cases whatever I'm looking for exists in multiples online with PSA vs. SGC. While I don't think PSA is totally above board, at least recently in their dealings with PWCC and possibly others, I do think that a vast majority of midrange vintage cards in their slabs are apt to be accurately graded. Last year's scandal, while disturbing - didn't really do much in terms of knocking PSA from their position / reputation as the market leader. Vintage HOF cards still easily sell for more in PSA slabs than the same card raw. While I can say I don't like this, as a collector who occasionally sells cards to finance other things - I also can't totally ignore it.

I will agree it's a bit of a double-edged sword and less than an ideal situation.

[Goudey77]

John, I totally agree with what you're saying.

My main point was that PWCC, PSA, SGC, Heritage, uncle Rick etc etc. are all in the middle serving our community. You also throw in sketchy shill bid collectors/card doctors then you have a collective bunch who are in this together. Just want to make it clear in my honest opinion there is no one source to blame.

To hate on a particular entity within the community is like hating on the community as a whole. It's a cyclical hobby and we are all in it together.

[Rhotchkiss]

To hate on a particular entity within the community is like hating on the community as a whole. It's a cyclical hobby and we are all in it together.

This statement is patently false. There some people in this hobby who are crooks, liars, cheaters, etc. They are pieces of shit and deserve to be “hated” on, which is in no way a reflection on the vast majority of decent folk collecting cardboard. I understand it’s not always black and white - in most cases it’s a shade of gray- but you think it’s wrong to “hate” on Gary Moser and other clear scum bags?

In fact, I think we have a duty to hate on those particular entities that are problematic- at least call them out and talk about them. This is how we self police and help the vast majority of good folks.

Ryan Hotchkiss

[perezfan]

I get that most posting on this subject is making a statement through their actions. If that is the case then look into your TPG's (PSA comes to mind) do you stop buying anything PSA graded? Because of the potential issues surrounding their business?

Let's not be hypocritical here. Pointing fingers can't stop at one source.

Regarding the part in bold, my answer is yes. But I would remove the word "potential" from the last sentence.

[jchcollins]

Yeah Martin, I would disagree. PSA has had shady elements to its business practices for decades now in terms of who gets what grades, what cards may or may not be altered, consistency of grading over time, the list goes on and on. But the hobby as a whole did not hard check them enough over this most recent episode to make a difference, other than a bunch of the usual complaining. There's a conflict of interest here in theory for most of us - we suspect skulduggery on some level with a grader, but most of us have slabs with nice cards from said grader that would be worth less and perhaps even substantially less if indeed that grader's reputation is noticeably harmed. So we don't do it.

I don't know if that means we can't continue to call out individual bad actors and things that we know are wrong. For PSA before 2018, there is a lot of speculation, but not a ton of absolute proof in terms of wrongdoing. (That is if you don't consider the case of the very first card they ever graded - which was known to be altered at the time, and was slabbed as not being that way regardless).

If we are being positive and not criticizing the community as a whole, sure I would like to see PSA "improve" - but I think you do this via a free market and giving them more competition. Place more emphasis on correct authentication and the subtleties of alteration than simply focusing on the difference between a PSA 9 and 10, perhaps. But again, there would have to be a market demand to do this - and if the past 2 years for PWCC and PSA are any indication - a few people here on message boards that are actually card geeks and not just flip worshippers have not been nearly enough to do that.

[perezfan]

If we are being positive and not criticizing the community as a whole, sure I would like to see PSA "improve" - but I think you do this via a free market and giving them more competition. Place more emphasis on correct authentication and the subtleties of alteration than simply focusing on the difference between a PSA 9 and 10, perhaps. But again, there would have to be a market demand to do this - and if the past 2 years for PWCC and PSA are any indication - a few people here on message boards that are actually card geeks and not just flip worshippers have not been nearly enough to do that.

A vast majority of collectors seem to like The Emperor's New Clothes. The number on the flip is more important than the actual item being evaluated. :confused:

[jchcollins]

A vast majority of collectors seem to like The Emperor's New Clothes. The number on the flip is more important than the actual item being evaluated. :confused:

Unfortunately for some I think this is true. I have a modest collection I keep at home and fiddle with more or less every day (moreso since COVID and working from home, probably). Some dudes spend thousands regularly on single slabs and stock their bank safety deposit boxes, never seeing the cards after they are purchased. That may be "investment", but it's not a hobby. I'll take the latter.

[Fuddjcal]

I have a strict policy of not doing business with criminals and fraudsters.

So I don't even look at the listings, much less bid.

:) That about sums it up for me as well.

[pokerplyr80]

Unfortunately for some I think this is true. I have a modest collection I keep at home and fiddle with more or less every day (moreso since COVID and working from home, probably). Some dudes spend thousands regularly on single slabs and stock their bank safety deposit boxes, never seeing the cards after they are purchased. That may be "investment", but it's not a hobby. I'll take the latter.

Believe it or not you can both enjoy a hobby and keep some of your more expensive cards safe at the bank. What I or anyone else chooses to spend on a card doesn't make collecting them any more or less of a hobby.

[vthobby]

I consign and buy from PWCC consistently. There are some of us that have been around long enough that can easily tell a trimmed or doctored card in a TPG holder. I don't buy those. I buy bargains! Plenty to be had when you really look.

Peace, Mike

[jchcollins]

Believe it or not you can both enjoy a hobby and keep some of your more expensive cards safe at the bank. What I or anyone else chooses to spend on a card doesn't make collecting them any more or less of a hobby.

Sorry, did not mean to pigeonhole anyone. Yes clearly, there are also quite informed collectors that enjoy the hobby who store valuable cards somewhere other than their home. What I meant was at least in some cases, I get the idea that some people do this purely as an investment, and don't really know / care anything about cards. You do not sound like one of those people. I should clarify to say of course there is nothing wrong with that. Each unto their own.

[overthetoppscollectibles]

PWCC blatantly and consistently violates eBay shipping policy.

EBay is unequivocal. You may always lower a shipping charge below what's listed in a given listing after a sale. You may never increase a shipping charge, no matter what other verbiage you put in the rest of the listing to justify it, or in invoices or emails after the purchase. The original shipping charge is the max, period (unless you agree to pay more by accepting an invoice after the fact with higher shipping than the original listing). This is easy to confirm. Ebay's seller rules state as much.

This seems to be their shipping pricing model in a nutshell. List shipping at a low cost, then after the fact, increase that price by as much as double.

They just tried this with me. Won two lots at auction. Shipping charges for both were listed at $33. They sent me an invoice with shipping at $65. I will not pay that extra. I wanted the cards, so I've spent a week going back and forth with them (and with eBay help) but to no avail. They won't budge and neither will I. This is as much about principle now as it is about gouging. Now, after a week, the items are still sitting out there unpaid and they're going to remain unpaid. I will not let them get away with this. They refuse to cancel the order and they will not open a "unpaid item" case. Ebay tells me I'm in the right and will win any case, but that eBay cannot force PWCC to sell to me at the original shipping price; however, I am assured I will not lose a case. Anxious to see how this turns out.

Ron McCr@ry

Never deal with these unethical idiots, if you can help it. If you do, fight tooth and nail about additional shipping charges. They do not get to do that and if we keep taking it, they'll keep doing it. Besides, they're just plain stupid. How short-sighted is it to blow a $5,500 sale over $35 bucks???
Ron McCr@ry

[wondo]

PWCC blatantly and consistently violates eBay shipping policy.

EBay is unequivocal. You may always lower a shipping charge below what's listed in a given listing after a sale. You may never increase a shipping charge, no matter what other verbiage you put in the rest of the listing to justify it, or in invoices or emails after the purchase. The original shipping charge is the max, period (unless you agree to pay more by accepting an invoice after the fact with higher shipping than the original listing). This is easy to confirm. Ebay's seller rules state as much.

This seems to be their shipping pricing model in a nutshell. List shipping at a low cost, then after the fact, increase that price by as much as double.

They just tried this with me. Won two lots at auction. Shipping charges for both were listed at $33. They sent me an invoice with shipping at $65. I will not pay that extra. I wanted the cards, so I've spent a week going back and forth with them (and with eBay help) but to no avail. They won't budge and neither will I. This is as much about principle now as it is about gouging. Now, after a week, the items are still sitting out there unpaid and they're going to remain unpaid. I will not let them get away with this. They refuse to cancel the order and they will not open a "unpaid item" case. Ebay tells me I'm in the right and will win any case, but that eBay cannot force PWCC to sell to me at the original shipping price; however, I am assured I will not lose a case. Anxious to see how this turns out.

Never deal with these unethical idiots, if you can help it. If you do, fight tooth and nail about additional shipping charges. They do not get to do that and if we keep taking it, they'll keep doing it. Besides, they're just plain stupid. How short-sighted is it to blow a $5,500 sale over $35 bucks???

Please clarify - $33 for each item and they are charging you $66 per item? I, too, have reached out on what I thought were exhorbidant (sp) shipping charges. But, they have always adjusted them for me.

[overthetoppscollectibles]

Please clarify - $33 for each item and they are charging you $66 per item? I, too, have reached out on what I thought were exhorbidant (sp) shipping charges. But, they have always adjusted them for me.

No, and these were fairly big-ticket items. I won a '55 Topps partial set, and shipping was set to $8. A few minutes later, I won a Clemente rookie, andshipping was set to $25. Auctions totaled about $5,500 before shipping. Before I could even pay, they sent an invoice for the auctions plus $65 for shipping (instead of the $8 and $25 they stated in the listings). I refused to pay the invoice for the higher shipping charges. I exchanged about 10 messages back and forth with them and got nowhere. Reported them as violating selling rules to eBay, which they are. Apparently, nobody's fought back on this crap. They're now stuck and I don't think they know what to do with me. They refuse to cancel the transaction. They refuse to do what's right (ship at the original rate). They refuse to open an "unpaid item" case. So it's just sitting out here in limbo. Again, eBay rules are unequivocal. You don't get to raise your shipping price after the fact, unless the buyer agrees to it. Ebay assures me I won't get dinged for unpaid item, because I have the rules behind me. No idea how this will turn out, but if more of us told them "HELL NO you're not adding shipping charges after the fact", maybe they'll start to listen.

[bigfish]

Would not buy from them for any card they offer. I just can't bring myself to give them any of my money after reading what they were involved in and are likely still involved in. No card is worth my self respect. Sorry.




agree

[Exhibitman]

I respect the positions of all the 'never-PWCCers' here. This just is not a 100% 'nice' business. There are a lot of cons, crooks, grifters, corner-cutters, etc. Cash businesses and collectibles always attract those sorts. There are also many really great, honest as the day is long, folks and I try to steer everything I can their way.

I guess the bottom line is that everyone has their own line in the sand. I was at a show once and I heard a dealer I used to buy from all the time use a certain really ugly racial slur. Made my skin crawl. I walked away and never dealt with him again. Racism is my third rail; I won't deal with bigots. Too much family blood in the ground in Poland for that...

I am not simon-pure on the question of shoddy or crooked dealers. When Legendary liquidated the Dreier collection I went after and won several of the rare boxing lots even though I knew by then that the people running the AH were crooks (now-convicted felons Doug Allen and Mark Theotikos). I didn't care. As long as the cards were delivered and at the price I was willing to pay I was fine with it. Some of the cards remain centerpieces of my collection.

[x2drich2000]

I respect the positions of all the 'never-PWCCers' here. This just is not a 100% 'nice' business. There are a lot of cons, crooks, grifters, corner-cutters, etc. Cash businesses and collectibles always attract those sorts. There are also many really great, honest as the day is long, folks and I try to steer everything I can their way.

I guess the bottom line is that everyone has their own line in the sand. I was at a show once and I heard a dealer I used to buy from all the time use a certain really ugly racial slur. Made my skin crawl. I walked away and never dealt with him again. Racism is my third rail; I won't deal with bigots. Too much family blood in the ground in Poland for that...

I am not simon-pure on the question of shoddy or crooked dealers. When Legendary liquidated the Dreier collection I went after and won several of the rare boxing lots even though I knew by then that the people running the AH were crooks (now-convicted felons Doug Allen and Mark Theotikos). I didn't care. As long as the cards were delivered and at the price I was willing to pay I was fine with it. Some of the cards remain centerpieces of my collection.

Adam, very well stated!

[CobbSpikedMe]

I respect the positions of all the 'never-PWCCers' here. This just is not a 100% 'nice' business. There are a lot of cons, crooks, grifters, corner-cutters, etc. Cash businesses and collectibles always attract those sorts. There are also many really great, honest as the day is long, folks and I try to steer everything I can their way.

I guess the bottom line is that everyone has their own line in the sand. I was at a show once and I heard a dealer I used to buy from all the time use a certain really ugly racial slur. Made my skin crawl. I walked away and never dealt with him again. Racism is my third rail; I won't deal with bigots. Too much family blood in the ground in Poland for that...

I am not simon-pure on the question of shoddy or crooked dealers. When Legendary liquidated the Dreier collection I went after and won several of the rare boxing lots even though I knew by then that the people running the AH were crooks (now-convicted felons Doug Allen and Mark Theotikos). I didn't care. As long as the cards were delivered and at the price I was willing to pay I was fine with it. Some of the cards remain centerpieces of my collection.

Hi Adam,

I hear you man. They had some stuff that you weren't going to see again for a long time and you wanted it. It's now a centerpiece of your collection. However, for me, even if they had "centerpiece" cards that I could afford and really wanted for my collection because I'd likely never see them again, I just can't get past my personal self respect threshold and deal with someone like Brent or Allen or Mastro, etc. I'm aware that I may be dealing with crooks at any time and don't know it, but if I don't know it then it doesn't affect my self respect. Once the shady business is known though, then I can't do it. No card/item is worth losing my own self respect. I can say no to cards as easily as I say no to doing drugs, they don't control me. For me, stuff doesn't trump all. This isn't an attack on Adam guys, I'm just responding to the idea, not the man.

[Lorewalker]

PWCC blatantly and consistently violates eBay shipping policy.

EBay is unequivocal. You may always lower a shipping charge below what's listed in a given listing after a sale. You may never increase a shipping charge, no matter what other verbiage you put in the rest of the listing to justify it, or in invoices or emails after the purchase. The original shipping charge is the max, period (unless you agree to pay more by accepting an invoice after the fact with higher shipping than the original listing). This is easy to confirm. Ebay's seller rules state as much.

This seems to be their shipping pricing model in a nutshell. List shipping at a low cost, then after the fact, increase that price by as much as double.

They just tried this with me. Won two lots at auction. Shipping charges for both were listed at $33. They sent me an invoice with shipping at $65. I will not pay that extra. I wanted the cards, so I've spent a week going back and forth with them (and with eBay help) but to no avail. They won't budge and neither will I. This is as much about principle now as it is about gouging. Now, after a week, the items are still sitting out there unpaid and they're going to remain unpaid. I will not let them get away with this. They refuse to cancel the order and they will not open a "unpaid item" case. Ebay tells me I'm in the right and will win any case, but that eBay cannot force PWCC to sell to me at the original shipping price; however, I am assured I will not lose a case. Anxious to see how this turns out.

Never deal with these unethical idiots, if you can help it. If you do, fight tooth and nail about additional shipping charges. They do not get to do that and if we keep taking it, they'll keep doing it. Besides, they're just plain stupid. How short-sighted is it to blow a $5,500 sale over $35 bucks???

Got it. So it is the excess shipping charges but not the fact they are under a federal investigation for numerous frauds perpetrated over many years against collectors? PWCC it is so easy to keep people happy just continue to ship quickly and do it at a fair price.

[cardsagain74]

PWCC blatantly and consistently violates eBay shipping policy.

EBay is unequivocal. You may always lower a shipping charge below what's listed in a given listing after a sale. You may never increase a shipping charge, no matter what other verbiage you put in the rest of the listing to justify it, or in invoices or emails after the purchase. The original shipping charge is the max, period (unless you agree to pay more by accepting an invoice after the fact with higher shipping than the original listing). This is easy to confirm. Ebay's seller rules state as much.

This seems to be their shipping pricing model in a nutshell. List shipping at a low cost, then after the fact, increase that price by as much as double.

They just tried this with me. Won two lots at auction. Shipping charges for both were listed at $33. They sent me an invoice with shipping at $65. I will not pay that extra. I wanted the cards, so I've spent a week going back and forth with them (and with eBay help) but to no avail. They won't budge and neither will I. This is as much about principle now as it is about gouging. Now, after a week, the items are still sitting out there unpaid and they're going to remain unpaid. I will not let them get away with this. They refuse to cancel the order and they will not open a "unpaid item" case. Ebay tells me I'm in the right and will win any case, but that eBay cannot force PWCC to sell to me at the original shipping price; however, I am assured I will not lose a case. Anxious to see how this turns out.

Never deal with these unethical idiots, if you can help it. If you do, fight tooth and nail about additional shipping charges. They do not get to do that and if we keep taking it, they'll keep doing it. Besides, they're just plain stupid. How short-sighted is it to blow a $5,500 sale over $35 bucks???

Even if they could use their shipping chart as gospel (glad you brought up that they can't; had no idea)......it looks like they're valuing your basically complete '55 T grade 4 set order at 9 k to 10 k, which of course is too high, so that the shipping charge can be bumped up a little

[perezfan]

Got it. So it is the excess shipping charges but not the fact they are under a federal investigation for numerous frauds perpetrated over many years against collectors? PWCC it is so easy to keep people happy just continue to ship quickly and do it at a fair price.

The portion in bold is the reason I won't even glance at their listings. The illegal shipping charges are a minor off-shoot which only serve to reinforce the sleaze factor.

[Lorewalker]

The portion in bold is the reason I won't even glance at their listings. The illegal shipping charges are a minor off-shoot which only serve to reinforce the sleaze factor.

The excess shipping charges seem to be an act of kindness compared to the allegations that have been levied against PWCC.

Happened to glance over at Blow Out Forum and saw this https://www.blowoutforums.com/showthread.php?t=1418582. One more reason to run from their listings, if this is suggestive of how current listings are done.

Like you, I do not even look. I really do not need anything that badly and prefer to not support a business accused of wrongdoings...rather buy from or bid with those that have not yet been accused of wrongdoings. :)

[overthetoppscollectibles]

Got it. So it is the excess shipping charges but not the fact they are under a federal investigation for numerous frauds perpetrated over many years against collectors? PWCC it is so easy to keep people happy just continue to ship quickly and do it at a fair price.

Hey, the fraud allegations are new to me. Big, active participant in the hobby but don't read the trade rags. Closest thing to that I read is VCP.com. I discovered the "Trimgate" scandal when I searched this forum for "PWCC shipping ripoffs"...and landed here. That, indeed, adds another wrinkle to this. It certainly seems that there is an established pattern and practice to their unethical (and, it looks like, illegal) behavior. I guess their business model is "do it as long as you can get away with it...". You'd think that the first wakeup call should have been "Trimgate". That didn't seem to do it. As I said, I'm done with them. Plenty of other sellers who actually value your business.

[overthetoppscollectibles]

Even if they could use their shipping chart as gospel (glad you brought up that they can't; had no idea)......it looks like they're valuing your basically complete '55 T grade 4 set order at 9 k to 10 k, which of course is too high, so that the shipping charge can be bumped up a little

Good sleuthing, dude. Thanks for pointing that out. One more arrow in the quiver.

[Exhibitman]

Hi Adam,

I hear you man. They had some stuff that you weren't going to see again for a long time and you wanted it. It's now a centerpiece of your collection. However, for me, even if they had "centerpiece" cards that I could afford and really wanted for my collection because I'd likely never see them again, I just can't get past my personal self respect threshold and deal with someone like Brent or Allen or Mastro, etc. I'm aware that I may be dealing with crooks at any time and don't know it, but if I don't know it then it doesn't affect my self respect. Once the shady business is known though, then I can't do it. No card/item is worth losing my own self respect. I can say no to cards as easily as I say no to doing drugs, they don't control me. For me, stuff doesn't trump all. This isn't an attack on Adam guys, I'm just responding to the idea, not the man.


That's fair; like I said, we all have our personal thresholds.

[CobbSpikedMe]

That's fair; like I said, we all have our personal thresholds.

Totally agree Adam. And I don't begrudge anyone for working with Brent. It's not my responsibility to police anyone else's choices, I can just work on my own. And I don't judge either. You'd still be my Net54 friend either way. :D

[perezfan]

Here is yet more for you PWCC defenders to chew on. Enjoy...

https://www.blowoutforums.com/showthread.php?t=1418582

[cardsagain74]

Good sleuthing, dude. Thanks for pointing that out. One more arrow in the quiver.

No problem. This is assuming that your total order only had those two lots won (but you didn't mention anything else)

[Lorewalker]

Here is yet more for you PWCC defenders to chew on. Enjoy...

https://www.blowoutforums.com/showthread.php?t=1418582

I posted a link above yesterday...dunno:confused:

[perezfan]

And no evidence of shill bidding here....

https://www.ebay.com/bfl/viewbids/353234445164?item=353234445164&rt=nc&_trksid=p2047675.l2565

How many people here believe that Bidder 3***3 (with zero feedback) is a legit bidder? :rolleyes:

[perezfan]

I posted a link above yesterday...dunno:confused:

Sorry... I didn't see that you'd already posted it. Good to see that at least a few people are clued into the depth of their corruption. But sad that over 80% of their sheep-mentality clientele probably are not even aware... with another 15% who know of the trimming, doctoring and shilling, but choose to turn a blind eye.

[Lorewalker]

Sorry... I didn't see that you'd already posted it. Good to see that at least a few people are clued into the depth of their corruption. But sad that over 80% of their sheep-mentality clientele probably are not even aware... with another 15% who know of the trimming, doctoring and shilling, but choose to turn a blind eye.

No need to be sorry. The more the merrier. Seems like we are long over the outrage though.

[overthetoppscollectibles]

No problem. This is assuming that your total order only had those two lots won (but you didn't mention anything else)

You're absolutely right. I went and checked their supposed shipping cost matrix. Total value of the order was $5,500. According to their shipping cost matrix (even assuming they were allowed to get away with charging off that, which they aren't), the shipping charge should have been $45 dollars. Cannot figure out how they landed on $65. Pure, unadulterated thievery. What a bunch of scumbags.

[Exhibitman]

Net54 friend

I've been called worse...

[Fuddjcal]

If you care about the slab, it's fine. The Caveat, many cards are altered, and others that can achieve a higher grade are shilled so high there is barely any meat on the bone. Low grade, rare cards I'm sure you are fine. High grade, playing with fire, dont cry if you get burned

boy, that took you a while to figure it out.:) I AGREE.

What about the new PRIVATE BIDDERS feature they are using now? Maybe it's because they are tired of being outed as shill bidders TIME AND TIME again. Here's a nice shiny example and there are so many others. This was just last week :D Such dirt bags PERIOD

https://www.ebay.com/bfl/viewbids/402473635274?item=402473635274&rt=nc&_trksid=p2047675.l2565

How many people here believe that Bidder 5***5 (with zero feedback) is a legit bidder?

[swarmee]

https://www.blowoutforums.com/showthread.php?t=1419183
The buyer of this card from PWCC got a free facelift for his Leaf Jackie Robinson. "Easily among the best PRESERVED copies we've seen in our history."
Good to see so many in this thread have no problem buying from scammers under investigation by the FBI and regularly tout their ability to let you cheat taxes.

[Rhotchkiss]

John, to me, the most amazing thing there is that PSA gave grades to half the cards even though they found so many in the submission to be altered. There should be a policy to summarily decline grades on any submission where more than X% is found to be altered (and that X% was reached in this case).

[Aquarian Sports Cards]

John, to me, the most amazing thing there is that PSA gave grades to half the cards even though they found so many in the submission to be altered. There should be a policy to summarily decline grades on any submission where more than X% is found to be altered (and that X% was reached in this case).

I'd go one step further. If you have a submission that's more than 10% altered you should be banned from submitting.

[bobbyw8469]

I'd go one step further. If you have a submission that's more than 10% altered you should be banned from submitting.

How fair would that be for me on a group sub?? I have no idea what guys are submitting.

[bnorth]

https://www.blowoutforums.com/showthread.php?t=1419183
The buyer of this card from PWCC got a free facelift for his Leaf Jackie Robinson. "Easily among the best PRESERVED copies we've seen in our history."
Good to see so many in this thread have no problem buying from scammers under investigation by the FBI and regularly tout their ability to let you cheat taxes.

Are they really still under investigation? Seems like once they got a lawyer it almost instantly went POOF other than a few refunds.

How fair would that be for me on a group sub?? I have no idea what guys are submitting.

I agree that you shouldn't be held responsible. If anybody that sends you cards gets a bunch returned altered would you out them?

[CobbSpikedMe]

How fair would that be for me on a group sub?? I have no idea what guys are submitting.

I think you would be safe from reaching the X% altered amount in a group sub. Otherwise we have a bunch of schmucks sending you altered cards to have graded no? :rolleyes:

[samosa4u]

https://dw7591lwb84er.cloudfront.net/eyJpdiI6IlBNOW9Qam9ZQnVBTExIS1FQeGU0NFE9PSIsInZhbH VlIjoiTS9YR05WZUxEMGxKYklGYk5hbkFXdmVsSjFwcXFqZU9L SVprRXRXcExjQT0iLCJtYWMiOiI3ZjU0NzdjYTk1MDliNTczND dlYWJhYTdmOTNlOTI1YTI5M2JiNGE2NGQ5MjE4ZTc0YjIyZTYx ODQ3YmMyMGY1In0=

Whoever worked on his cheek (Gary Moser?) did an effing horrible job! Jackie looks like he has smallpox! :eek:

[Exhibitman]

https://www.blowoutforums.com/showthread.php?t=1419183
The buyer of this card from PWCC got a free facelift for his Leaf Jackie Robinson. "Easily among the best PRESERVED copies we've seen in our history."
Good to see so many in this thread have no problem buying from scammers under investigation by the FBI and regularly tout their ability to let you cheat taxes.

That was of course the evil Captain Kirk from episode 5, The Enemy Within.

https://photos.imageevent.com/exhibitman/dropins/websize/evil%20kirk.jpg

[bobbyw8469]

Are they really still under investigation? Seems like once they got a lawyer it almost instantly went POOF other than a few refunds.



I agree that you shouldn't be held responsible. If anybody that sends you cards gets a bunch returned altered would you out them?

So far no one has done that. I think everyone is above board. I'd have to think long and hard about that. It feels like I would be violating some kind of client priviledge type of deal.

[Rich Klein]

I think it depends on the item (s). Now I don't bid on any of their items but let's say they came up with a major lot of Gene Larkin *Good Columbia boy, got WS game-winning hit in 1991* cards in "raw condition* I would not see why not.

Why not? Well I will get what I saw on line, what I paid for and I would wager the items will be properly sent out. At this point I can't guarantee the USPS either. But that would not be a lot that anyone would want to play with so I would feel very safe on a lot such as that.

Rich

[perezfan]

Even when buying a card as basic and safe as that, you are putting money in the pockets of criminals.

Why would we want to enable, support and perpetuate their fraud and corruption? PWCC needs to go the way of Mastro (even more than Mastro itself). Anyone who spends just 10 minutes on Blowout can see the indisputable evidence. One of dozens of similar threads, linked below...

https://www.blowoutforums.com/showthread.php?t=1419183

We should not be funding criminal enterprises, no matter the card.

[perezfan]

Their "forced" refunds are one drop in a swimming pool of corruption.

If Mastro refunded the difference between the shilled price and the actual bid price of the card (on roughly 1% of their fraudulent transactions- only when they were caught) do you think they would get a free pass and avoid jail time?

I can't understand why people are so quick to give PWCC a pass, unless they are naive to the situation and facts.

[AGuinness]

Even when buying a card as basic and safe as that, you are putting money in the pockets of criminals.

And in addition to the accusations on BO and elsewhere (with corresponding photographic evidence), I'm still disgusted at the video interview about a year and a half ago when Brent lobbied to make "conservation" an accepted practice in the hobby - essentially trying to change the hobby's long-standing beliefs on altering cards in order to validate his shady practices.
I do my best to support companies and people who do good for the community, use local credit unions versus the big banks, go to local small businesses versus the big box stores, etc. PWCC may have made people money, but it has not been good for the hobby.
I won't even click on a PWCC item because I don't want to increase the number of views.

[Exhibitman]

I can't understand why people are so quick to give PWCC a pass, unless they are naive to the situation and facts.

it isn't naivete; they just don't care. Many collectors would deal with the devil himself if he had the cards they need. Look, if you go to a show and buy a card you have no idea whether the dealer selling it raped a teenage girl, used a fake charity to defraud seniors, beat up his wife, is a die-hard racist, etc. (all real examples of things dealers at the National have done, BTW) and you don't condition the purchase on a background check of the guy. People extend that same logic to online sellers. As long as the seller is 'honest' (defined as will get you the card you bought for the price you paid) no one cares about the rest until the FBI takes them down, which is when those same people ask "what took you so long?"

Not condoning, just explaining...

[AGuinness]

it isn't naivete; they just don't care. Many collectors would deal with the devil himself if he had the cards they need. Look, if you go to a show and buy a card you have no idea whether the dealer selling it raped a teenage girl, used a fake charity to defraud seniors, beat up his wife, is a die-hard racist, etc. (all real examples of things dealers at the National have done, BTW) and you don't condition the purchase on a background check of the guy. People extend that same logic to online sellers. As long as the seller is 'honest' (defined as will get you the card you bought for the price you paid) no one cares about the rest until the FBI takes them down, which is when those same people ask "what took you so long?"

Not condoning, just explaining...

I see what you're saying, although in this case, many/most/a number of people DO know what PWCC has done and how the company is run. And if I were at a card show and knew which dealers had done what your examples have done, I'd surely not spend a cent with them. I've been faced with learning about some financial misdeeds (not nearly as bad as the ones you list) by a dealer I used to frequent at a local card show and I don't even visit his table any more.

[Johnny630]

it isn't naivete; they just don't care. Many collectors would deal with the devil himself if he had the cards they need. Look, if you go to a show and buy a card you have no idea whether the dealer selling it raped a teenage girl, used a fake charity to defraud seniors, beat up his wife, is a die-hard racist, etc. (all real examples of things dealers at the National have done, BTW) and you don't condition the purchase on a background check of the guy. People extend that same logic to online sellers. As long as the seller is 'honest' (defined as will get you the card you bought for the price you paid) no one cares about the rest until the FBI takes them down, which is when those same people ask "what took you so long?"

Not condoning, just explaining...

Spot On Bottom Line Love it or Hate it is the way it is and the way it always will be, and The Beat Goes On

[perezfan]

it isn't naivete; they just don't care. Many collectors would deal with the devil himself if he had the cards they need. Look, if you go to a show and buy a card you have no idea whether the dealer selling it raped a teenage girl, used a fake charity to defraud seniors, beat up his wife, is a die-hard racist, etc. (all real examples of things dealers at the National have done, BTW) and you don't condition the purchase on a background check of the guy. People extend that same logic to online sellers. As long as the seller is 'honest' (defined as will get you the card you bought for the price you paid) no one cares about the rest until the FBI takes them down, which is when those same people ask "what took you so long?"

Not condoning, just explaining...

I get all of that and well said, Adam...

But I still think there are a large number of "eBayers" who are not clued in to much of the ongoing corruption. A relatively small percentage even frequent these forums, and I would bet that as many as half of PWCC's clientele are unaware of how deep the criminality runs.

I'm well aware of those collectors of which "stuff trumps all". Still, there are a bunch out there who still have no idea what PWCC is all about.

[Rich Klein]

it isn't naivete; they just don't care. Many collectors would deal with the devil himself if he had the cards they need. Look, if you go to a show and buy a card you have no idea whether the dealer selling it raped a teenage girl, used a fake charity to defraud seniors, beat up his wife, is a die-hard racist, etc. (all real examples of things dealers at the National have done, BTW) and you don't condition the purchase on a background check of the guy. People extend that same logic to online sellers. As long as the seller is 'honest' (defined as will get you the card you bought for the price you paid) no one cares about the rest until the FBI takes them down, which is when those same people ask "what took you so long?"

Not condoning, just explaining...

And if you don't think Adam is correct, I can assure you many of the dealers in the NY/NJ area I dealt with in the 1980's had, let us say, colorful backgrounds. Adam did not even mention charges with transporting stolen merchandise or yelling at his parents. etc. You don't ask every show dealer their background.

[perezfan]

Yep, for whatever reason, this hobby always seems to attract many "charming" personalities and upstanding characters.

[Johnny630]

If we ran criminal background checks or warrant checks prior to the National Each Year it would be very interesting. Hey Let's Hold the National at San Quentin. I'm just teasing most people don't care or want to think about who they're dealing with they just want to have fun and buy cards. Which is totally cool :-)