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View Full Version : Cleveland's IX Center to Close - Home to the National


KMayUSA6060
09-16-2020, 10:10 AM
Will the National look for a different venue in Cleveland, or abandon the city altogether? The only other venue I can think of in Cleveland that would be able to host this would presumably be too expensive for the National since it's downtown.

https://fox8.com/news/i-team/clevelands-i-x-center-to-close-at-end-of-the-year/?fbclid=IwAR1Mf94I-SfZIKXWPcOaJOk2uOhPD2Ba6MMs-IuSr02-o18rrvRU8DQDkUo

perezfan
09-16-2020, 10:17 AM
Good question. They will probably go wherever they can get the "free rent", regardless of how inaccessible/problematic it is for the attendees.

nineunder71
09-16-2020, 10:23 AM
Hope it heads West!

keithsky
09-16-2020, 10:25 AM
I'm thinking some wealthy company or person will buy it and continue it as a convention center as long is the city doesn't have plans to tear it down and turn it into some kind of high rise housing because it's close to the airport

Frank A
09-16-2020, 10:34 AM
Screw Cleveland and Screw Chicago. Move the dam national around so other collectors can attend one. National my ass. There will be plenty of dealers to set up and take the place of the spoiled ones.

Exhibitman
09-16-2020, 12:50 PM
You know, I am going to kind of miss going to Cleveland for the show. Sure, the venue sucked, the lodgings were not first-rate, etc., but the lack of anything to do made for some good evenings at the bar and I always had good luck finding stuff at the show. And where else is there a ferris wheel to break up the show floor??? I just hope they don't put it in AC instead. Just make it Chicago every year. It is easy to get to, there's lots of convenient dining and lodging, and the venue is decent.

vintagewhitesox
09-16-2020, 12:57 PM
You know, I am going to kind of miss going to Cleveland for the show. Sure, the venue sucked, the lodgings were not first-rate, etc., but the lack of anything to do made for some good evenings at the bar and I always had good luck finding stuff at the show. And where else is there a ferris wheel to break up the show floor??? I just hope they don't put it in AC instead. Just make it Chicago every year. It is easy to get to, there's lots of convenient dining and lodging, and the venue is decent.

agreed

Donscards
09-16-2020, 01:25 PM
Boston would be nice---they have everything the National would need---But the toughest unions to deal with in the country. And only 2 hours for me---But my guess is Chicago.

glynparson
09-16-2020, 01:42 PM
I am a proponent of Chicago every year if they aren’t going to bother making it a true national and move it all around the country.

ClementeFanOh
09-16-2020, 01:44 PM
Lots of good memories at the Cleveland National. Hope it stays there. Trent King

Vintagecatcher
09-16-2020, 02:37 PM
The first and best National I ever attended was the Cleveland National in 1997.

Patrick

jcmtiger
09-16-2020, 02:48 PM
How about Hertz Arena in SW Florida, halfway between Naples & FT Myers. Right next to I-75.

egbeachley
09-16-2020, 04:03 PM
Boo! The Cleveland site is way better, in my opinion, than Chicago. Sure there are quality hotels next door or attached to the Chicago Convention Center. But they all cost well over $200 per night and You could get a limo ride to a great hotel in Cleveland and still save $100.

ocjack
09-16-2020, 04:06 PM
One vote for anything west of Arizona.

boysblue
09-16-2020, 04:43 PM
I did not mind Cleveland at all. Was always able to find a halfway decent restaurant in the vicinity for food/drink, and the IX Centre was fine.

Florida? Atlanta? Dallas? A northerner like me would melt after a couple of days down there in August. :)

boysblue
09-16-2020, 04:43 PM
I did not mind Cleveland at all. Was always able to find a halfway decent restaurant in the vicinity for food/drink, and the IX Centre was fine.

Florida? Atlanta? Dallas? A northerner like me would melt after a couple of days down there in August. :)

hcv123
09-16-2020, 04:56 PM
That is crazy news! I hope they figure something out that can keep the national in rotation there - way easier in ways than Chicago.

taul166
09-16-2020, 04:58 PM
I will miss this venue. I always found it to be a comfortable and convenient location for me. And, an indoor carnival wheel to ride if you wanted a break.

conor912
09-16-2020, 05:14 PM
Screw Cleveland and Screw Chicago. Move the dam national around so other collectors can attend one. National my ass. There will be plenty of dealers to set up and take the place of the spoiled ones.

I like your style, Frank.

Seattle, Phoenix, Vegas, Denver or L.A. would all be awesome for different reasons, but I'm not holding my breath.

perezfan
09-16-2020, 05:28 PM
I like your style, Frank.

Seattle, Phoenix, Vegas, Denver or L.A. would all be awesome for different reasons, but I'm not holding my breath.

Agree... and don't forget San Diego!

JollyElm
09-16-2020, 05:41 PM
Maybe if we cheer hard enough (think of The Godfather's guests imploring Johnny Fontaine to take the stage at Connie's wedding) maybe we can coax Mark Macrae into organizing some sort of semi-huge show in California. His bi-annual St. Leander's shows are great!! :rolleyes:

Steve_NY
09-16-2020, 07:02 PM
Why is it that every time the National is mentioned, we hear the same thing over and over again? Move it around the country? Move it to the West Coast as one of the rotation locations? Keep it in Chicago every year?

Did you know that at the last National on the West Coast, most of the East Coast dealers took their one out of every five election to not set up at the National.

We are not "spoiled". We accrued our seniority and most of the long-time dealers are old now and don't want to make such a long trip. The National Committee knows the facts and understands that it is an important part of the National to have most of the premier dealers in the country set up at the show.

A National is simply not a National without them. Substituting local dealers and new faces is just not what the customers really want. Yes, they want an acceptable amount of new dealers and new faces. But they travel to the National to see their friends and the people they have bought from for many years. You can see your local dealers at your local shows!!

Sadly, I will miss the Cleveland show and was disappointed that the Atlantic City show was cancelled. I wouldn't mind if they changed the Cleveland show to an Atlantic City one. But I would mind going to Chicago every year for the National, but if so, I would be there.

Brian Van Horn
09-16-2020, 07:10 PM
I'll miss the Ferris Wheel.

bounce
09-16-2020, 08:09 PM
Cleveland was low on my list for accommodations, but as others noted the lack of other things to do made for some good interaction with others at the bar and some after show trading/meet ups.

Chicago just works because most people can get there direct and the drive isn't a killer for the East Coasters, plus the accommodations and center are really good.

AC is hard to get to but the accommodations and center are actually pretty good.

I don't think Boston would ever work because it also isn't as accessible,
same issue for Philly probably. Similar issues for Baltimore on the travel for non-East Coasters.

Phoenix would actually be really good, but again not super accessible especially for the East Coasters.

Dallas and Houston are never on these lists, but I think some of that is "stuff" to do besides the show. Accommodations and centers are as good as any of these others, and both are pretty easy to get to from both coasts.

I always thought Anaheim was awesome, I appreciate the East Coasters don't like that haul but I also don't think a skip every 4-5 years hurts that much.

Anyway, my guess is Cleveland is officially dead as a location now, so it's kinda Chicago and...Chicago.

conor912
09-16-2020, 08:36 PM
Why is it that every time the National is mentioned, we hear the same thing over and over again? Move it around the country? Move it to the West Coast as one of the rotation locations? Keep it in Chicago every year?

Did you know that at the last National on the West Coast, most of the East Coast dealers took their one out of every five election to not set up at the National.

We are not "spoiled". We accrued our seniority and most of the long-time dealers are old now and don't want to make such a long trip. The National Committee knows the facts and understands that it is an important part of the National to have most of the premier dealers in the country set up at the show.

A National is simply not a National without them. Substituting local dealers and new faces is just not what the customers really want. Yes, they want an acceptable amount of new dealers and new faces. But they travel to the National to see their friends and the people they have bought from for many years. You can see your local dealers at your local shows!!

Sadly, I will miss the Cleveland show and was disappointed that the Atlantic City show was cancelled. I wouldn't mind if they changed the Cleveland show to an Atlantic City one. But I would mind going to Chicago every year for the National, but if so, I would be there.

So it's not a National without the east coast dealers? You should be pandered to because you "have seniority"? You're old and don't want to travel far? Sounds pretty spoiled to me.

IMO, the ideal situation would be a set of regular east coast dealers that all make the trip to Chicago and then a set from the west coast that all make the trip to the Phoenix/Vegas area and alternate years.

Bigdaddy
09-16-2020, 08:46 PM
Atlanta, Orlando, DC/Baltimore, Philly, Charlotte???

All this talk about the 'East Coast Dealers' and every year the National is in the Mid-West? WTH??

Kenny Cole
09-16-2020, 09:09 PM
Why is it that every time the National is mentioned, we hear the same thing over and over again? Move it around the country? Move it to the West Coast as one of the rotation locations? Keep it in Chicago every year?

Did you know that at the last National on the West Coast, most of the East Coast dealers took their one out of every five election to not set up at the National.

We are not "spoiled". We accrued our seniority and most of the long-time dealers are old now and don't want to make such a long trip. The National Committee knows the facts and understands that it is an important part of the National to have most of the premier dealers in the country set up at the show.

A National is simply not a National without them. Substituting local dealers and new faces is just not what the customers really want. Yes, they want an acceptable amount of new dealers and new faces. But they travel to the National to see their friends and the people they have bought from for many years. You can see your local dealers at your local shows!!

Sadly, I will miss the Cleveland show and was disappointed that the Atlantic City show was cancelled. I wouldn't mind if they changed the Cleveland show to an Atlantic City one. But I would mind going to Chicago every year for the National, but if so, I would be there.

Right. The east coast dealers don't want to go west, but they do expect the west coast dealers AND buyers to go east. Check. But you aren't selfish or anything ... you just have "seniority." Whatever. I will never go to AC. It is both a dump and hard to get to. I guess I'll take my "one out of five" to avoid that dump every time it is held there.

egbeachley
09-16-2020, 09:48 PM
50% of the US population lives within 500 miles from WV. Makes sense to have it on the East Coast.

conor912
09-16-2020, 11:01 PM
50% of the US population lives within 500 miles from WV. Makes sense to have it on the East Coast.

If we still drove horse and buggies this would make complete sense.

Steve D
09-16-2020, 11:11 PM
When you consider that two-thirds of the country is west of the Mississippi River, it would be very nice to have the "National Convention" come across the river once in a while!

Steve

Kenny Cole
09-17-2020, 12:03 AM
[QUOTE=Steve D;2018253]When you consider that two-thirds of the country is west of the Mississippi River, it would be very nice to have the "National Convention" come across the river once in a while!

Other than the fact that the Committee doesn't give a fu*k about that. Its all about where they can get the best deal/make money from booking it there. It is zero about collectors, hasn't been that for over 20 years. it is IMO crazy. Truly a case of cutting off the nose to spite the face. But, sadly, it seems to work.

Casey2296
09-17-2020, 01:26 AM
Baseball used to be just an East Coast thing to. Perhaps the West should start their own gig, just like they did in the 50's.

Frank A
09-17-2020, 05:49 AM
Let see. The name of the show is the National Sports COLLECTORS Convention. Somewhere along the way it has turned into The National Sports Dealers Convention. COLECTORS being the key word. Move the thing around for the collectors.

topcat61
09-17-2020, 06:07 AM
Boston would be nice---they have everything the National would need---But the toughest unions to deal with in the country. And only 2 hours for me---But my guess is Chicago.

Transportation in Boston is really tough. I cant see the city housing 40,000 people for a week. You'd have to go outside of it for cheap lodging. There's really only one way out and one way in to the city. Believe me, there's nothing I'd love more than to have a National here, but the city is not good. There are 2 large convention centers that are used for anything except the auto show in December at the waterfront. Boston has great sports history which is a plus but how knows, maybe I'm wrong on a National here? What do you think?

steve B
09-17-2020, 08:07 AM
I think Boston could work, I think at one time there wasn't a large enough venue in the area.

Providence has a big convention center.
I went to a rabbit convention there and supposedly it was the only local place big enough. (They did it a couple years ago at the eastern states in springfield, but that's a bit too rural for the high rollers.

The stamp collectors have multiple large shows every year in different locations. (and an international in Boston in 2026 a big enough event they're starting to plan it already.) Many of the big dealers go to most of the big shows.
And if you guys think card dealers are old.....

steve B
09-17-2020, 08:07 AM
If it's in Chicago would a bulletproof vest booth slide through?

ocjack
09-17-2020, 08:29 AM
We are not "spoiled". We accrued our seniority and most of the long-time dealers are old now and don't want to make such a long trip. The National Committee knows the facts and understands that it is an important part of the National to have most of the premier dealers in the country set up at the show.


We've had it wrong all this time. They are not "spoiled", They're "premier."

I needed a good laugh. Thanks.

perezfan
09-17-2020, 09:37 AM
If we still drove horse and buggies this would make complete sense.

Thanks a lot.... spilled coffee on my shirt reading that one. :D

Exhibitman
09-17-2020, 10:06 AM
I for one don't really care if the 'senior' dealers skip a show every few years; collectors likely would be pleasantly surprised at who turns up instead. One of the great parts of the National for me when it really rotated was going to different places and seeing different local dealers in the back third of the room. I picked up some great stuff over the years in Cleveland, Baltimore and Anaheim because local people could set up. I don't think it is any accident that as the show has retreated into a few locations the actual card dealer base has actually shrunk with relatively little new blood or inventory and I think I know why: it is very difficult and expensive to take two weeks off to drive back and forth to a show back east. I know if I could drive to a show in a day (LA, Anaheim, SD, LV, Phoenix, SF or Sacramento all would work) I could take a table because I could do so economically.

Yoda
09-17-2020, 11:16 AM
One vote for anything west of Arizona.

Is there anything west of Arizona left?

drmondobueno
09-17-2020, 11:58 AM
Screw Cleveland and Screw Chicago. Move the dam national around so other collectors can attend one. National my ass. There will be plenty of dealers to set up and take the place of the spoiled ones.

+1

Steve_NY
09-17-2020, 12:10 PM
I have always suggested that there be two Nationals -- one near the East Coast and one near the West Coast. If there were two shows, I would do both. In fact, if there were a West Coast show now, I WOULD set up as a booth holder this time. I guarantee that I would not exercise my one in five skip. So I am in favor with moving the show around if the logistics can be worked out.

Maybe a one in three or four year rotation with Chicago, Atlantic City, Las Vegas or Anaheim, and one other choice?

I am not in favor of the Boston location unless we can move our display in ourselves and break down ourselves. We would need the ability to drive to our booth location as we can do right now at all Nationals. New York would be nice at Javits Center but the same issues that apply in Boston are issues in New York.

Anaheim or San Francisco or Las Vegas could be worth a try if they meet those specifics. Las Vegas would be great as hotel rooms are inexpensive and it is easy to get in and out by plane or car.

I accept being called "spoiled" but I am still open to innovations and definitely favor some mix of locations.

Steve

conor912
09-17-2020, 12:48 PM
I have always suggested that there be two Nationals -- one near the East Coast and one near the West Coast. If there were two shows, I would do both. In fact, if there were a West Coast show now, I WOULD set up as a booth holder this time. I guarantee that I would not exercise my one in five skip. So I am in favor with moving the show around if the logistics can be worked out.

Maybe a one in three or four year rotation with Chicago, Atlantic City, Las Vegas or Anaheim, and one other choice?

I am not in favor of the Boston location unless we can move our display in ourselves and break down ourselves. We would need the ability to drive to our booth location as we can do right now at all Nationals. New York would be nice at Javits Center but the same issues that apply in Boston are issues in New York.

Anaheim or San Francisco or Las Vegas could be worth a try if they meet those specifics. Las Vegas would be great as hotel rooms are inexpensive and it is easy to get in and out by plane or car.

I accept being called "spoiled" but I am still open to innovations and definitely favor some mix of locations.

Steve

Sorry, but this post is quite a departure from your last one. If the east coast dealers sat out Anaheim, but everyone who went to Anaheim said it was a great show, then maybe you and your brethren have a misplaced sense of self importance.

JollyElm
09-17-2020, 02:45 PM
Is there anything west of Arizona left?

If you want to see Pompeii on a budget, just come out to California instead. In a thousand years, archaeologists are going to discover my home buried under 100 feet of ash, and then create a plaster cast of my body holding a can of Spaghetti-O's and something that turns out to be a graded card slab.

Rickyy
09-17-2020, 02:57 PM
If nothing is west of Mississippi then I wish they wouldn't call it a National. That always bothered me.

Ricky Y

birdman42
09-17-2020, 03:07 PM
A few years ago some hard-working soul put together a good summary of why the National is where it is and isn't where it isn't. (Too wiped out now to plow through the archives to look for the thread.)

Essentially it came down to three things:
availability of floor space--the venue has to be big enough, but not too big.
scheduling flexibility--some venues won't schedule events out far enough in advance, and others want committments too far in the future
union labor--driving right up to your space ain't gonna happen in a place like Boston or NYC. Only union labor can handle unloading and loading at some venues.

Bill

GaryPassamonte
09-17-2020, 04:54 PM
Bill- I know the union thing is true, but I don't understand how such idiocy is allowed. Who in their right mind negotiates these union contracts? I'm not anti-union, I'm anti-stupidity. What about my right to carry my own property where I want to carry it?

sb1
09-17-2020, 05:22 PM
Usually you can self carry or use a 2-wheel dolly but can not drive in or use a 4-wheel dolly in the heavily unionized convention centers.

conor912
09-17-2020, 05:54 PM
Wouldn't want to upset the old guys with seniority. A National is simply not a National without them.

Shoeless Moe
09-17-2020, 06:01 PM
If it's in Chicago would a bulletproof vest booth slide through?

Chicago is not really Chicago, it's in Rosemont a suburb of Chicago, so you're safe there.

Steve_NY
09-17-2020, 06:24 PM
Maybe it's just me but one of the posters on this trail just has nothing positive to say or add and is only offering negative comments. I refuse to drop to that level. Such posters should be blocked like they do on Facebook.

The National is what it is because of the trailblazers that paved the way. The National Committee works very hard and they deserve a lot of credit for weighing all of the options and making difficult decisions for all of us. You just can't keep everyone happy all of the time.

conor912
09-17-2020, 06:43 PM
Maybe it's just me but one of the posters on this trail just has nothing positive to say or add and is only offering negative comments. I refuse to drop to that level. Such posters should be blocked like they do on Facebook.

The National is what it is because of the trailblazers that paved the way. The National Committee works very hard and they deserve a lot of credit for weighing all of the options and making difficult decisions for all of us. You just can't keep everyone happy all of the time.

I apologize for my tone. That said, I am only referencing, if not directly quoting, what you said. Yes the National Committee’s decisions are disappointing, but what set me off was the sense of entitlement oozing from your first post.

There. I’m done. Chicago or bust.

Steve_NY
09-17-2020, 07:15 PM
Cool. But I do feel that many of us who have been doing shows for decades should have some deserved "priority" for setting up at the National. I guess you can call it "entitled".

I have done all but 4 of the Nationals; I have promoted over 300 baseball card shows; and I have set up at well over 1,000 shows over the last 46 years. Believe it or not, there were some months in the 70s and 80s and 90s where I worked every day of the week and also every day on the weekends for months in a row. I was also out every night buying collections.

Yeah, I have done a lot but have enjoyed every minute of it. I believe that we all should be positive about our hobby experiences. I even continue to buy collections and have bought three large collections over the past 2 months.

Life is good. So everyone stay safe!!

BRoberts
09-17-2020, 07:21 PM
I think the greater Dallas area would be a wonderful location for, if not a National, an exceptionally large regional show. That area has so much going for it.

perezfan
09-17-2020, 10:04 PM
I think the greater Dallas area would be a wonderful location for, if not a National, an exceptionally large regional show. That area has so much going for it.

I'd be up for it. Lots of direct flights, centrally located, and a very accessible hub. Why not Dallas?

Fred
09-17-2020, 10:11 PM
That's too bad - I've been to several Nationals in Cleveland and thought they were just fine. Would be nice to see the show hit a little further west.

Rich Klein
09-18-2020, 10:10 AM
I think the greater Dallas area would be a wonderful location for, if not a National, an exceptionally large regional show. That area has so much going for it.

To be fair in the DFW area; Kyle Robertson already runs a nice fairly large regional show at a really spiffy fairly new location. Not just because I can walk to show from my COMC office and/or it's 10 minutes from my house the area is great for a larger regional show. Just off a major highway; tons of places to eat nearby, hotels available. We already have the large regional show here in DFW.

Yes I would love the NSCC to be able to use the Dallas Convention Center. But trust me, most of us living here would prefer not to be here during a NSCC and to go somewhere 10-15 degree colder as a high temperature.

Rich

ocjack
09-18-2020, 10:47 AM
It's not an easy solution.

Yes, dealers that have been loyal to the show should have some priority. But, when that priority is coupled with corporate booths, it means that a good 2/3 of the show floor is gone, leaving local or newer dealers with the back of the room. I remember doing the last Anaheim show. You walk in and see the same dealers you always see (think Mr. Mint and his minions) and then the corporate booths. Those of us in the back of the room knew it would be a good half-hour to 45 minutes for us to see any traffic once the doors opened.

Maybe the way to reward loyal dealers is that they get first dibs on tables - not location - just tables. There are only X number of tables at a show, so having priority to get one could be a reward. But once that's done, table assignment should be totally random. And I know corporate booths bring in money for the promoters, but come on - some kind of limit on their space or maybe in an adjacent room would serve dealers better.

And let's not forget, the "trailblazers" started on the West Coast.

Just my 2cents.

CobbSpikedMe
09-18-2020, 11:01 AM
Every time the National location comes up for debate there are always the same comments and complaints. You know, it's ok if you aren't able to go to the National for a year because it's on the west coast. You won't die or anything. And the west coast collectors deserve to have the National as much as the east coast collectors. If you can't go one year, then boohoo for you. Stop whining and just get over it. I can only go when it's in AC and I love it when I get there. Everyone else is always like, "AC is the worst...AC is a dump...I'll never go back to AC...etc." But I love it in AC because it's the only time I can get there. And I'm not bitching about not being able to go because it's in Chicago every damn year. I'm just happy when it's here. So stop complaining and go when you can and enjoy it.

Yoda
09-18-2020, 11:22 AM
I recall the Atlanta National back in the mid 1990's as being exciting and packed. Perhaps my perception was clouded by serious discussions I had with Kevin Struss, who was with SCP at the time, for a PSA graded vg/ex T206 Honus. The card had been consigned by Bill Mastro and was a recent discovery.

But I always thought Atlanta was a great demographic choice for the National; the East Crowd could easily and economically fly in, the South would obviously be served, plenty of good hotels and restaurants and then Georgia with a rich baseball history.

To this day, I don't know what went wrong and Atlanta was dropped from the National's rota. Living in Florida, as I do, it would make my logistics easier to attend if reconsidered.

Jewish-collector
09-18-2020, 12:34 PM
That's too bad the National will no longer be in Cleveland. It was always easy to drive & park at the IX Center. It now looks like the National will end up being in Chicago every single year.

There are many locations/venues that can't host the National for one reason or another:

Some venues are too small
Some cities don't have enough hotel rooms
Some venues are not convenient to airports
Some venues have union legal stuff that makes it not possible
Some venues charge too much for having events in their building
Some cities are not good baseball towns so they're voted no
Some venues don't want it scheduled too far in the future, so voted no.

I'm sure there are more reasons, but these are the major ones.

Rich Klein
09-18-2020, 03:31 PM
I recall the Atlanta National back in the mid 1990's as being exciting and packed. Perhaps my perception was clouded by serious discussions I had with Kevin Struss, who was with SCP at the time, for a PSA graded vg/ex T206 Honus. The card had been consigned by Bill Mastro and was a recent discovery.

But I always thought Atlanta was a great demographic choice for the National; the East Crowd could easily and economically fly in, the South would obviously be served, plenty of good hotels and restaurants and then Georgia with a rich baseball history.

To this day, I don't know what went wrong and Atlanta was dropped from the National's rota. Living in Florida, as I do, it would make my logistics easier to attend if reconsidered.

John:

To be honest and I was with Beckett at both times (92 and 99) and frankly Atlanta was a disappointment both times. The 1999 National was frankly terrible and the 92 one was not good considering how hot the hobby was at the time. Atlanta is not an active hobby area.

Rich

mr2686
09-18-2020, 05:53 PM
It's not like we're asking a lot out here on the West Coast. How about one every 8 or 10 years? I mean, I know some of the dealers don't want to travel out here, but we have a lot of people here in the hobby willing to spend money.

Rich Klein
09-18-2020, 06:54 PM
This is now a decade-long (and longer) discussion. Here is this classic from 2009

https://www.net54baseball.com/showthread.php?t=114661&highlight=Mike+Berkus

Rich

Yoda
09-18-2020, 10:09 PM
John:

To be honest and I was with Beckett at both times (92 and 99) and frankly Atlanta was a disappointment both times. The 1999 National was frankly terrible and the 92 one was not good considering how hot the hobby was at the time. Atlanta is not an active hobby area.

Rich

Rich, thanks. Now I know. Must have been the Honus.

conor912
09-18-2020, 11:47 PM
I hope organizers aren't betting the farm on a 2021 Natty happening. Covid certainly won’t be sorted out by winter when I assume planning starts, and changes for a show that big need a very wide berth. Hope I’m wrong, but if I was them I’d be investigating the possibility of a Chicago 2022 return.

Rich Klein
09-19-2020, 03:01 AM
I hope organizers aren't betting the farm on a 2021 Natty happening. Covid certainly won’t be sorted out by winter when I assume planning starts, and changes for a show that big need a very wide berth. Hope I’m wrong, but if I was them I’d be investigating the possibility of a Chicago 2022 return.

I've talked enough with Mr. Broggi to know he (and the other National promoters and the dealer board) will not rush in and have a show unless they feel it is safe. They are planning to have the 2021 show but not betting the farm on the NSCC as it was in 2019. I don't speak for anyone but there is enough room in Rosemont to re-adjust if needed.

We can have shows but we have to be careful thereof.

Rich

conor912
09-19-2020, 08:36 AM
I've talked enough with Mr. Broggi to know he (and the other National promoters and the dealer board) will not rush in and have a show unless they feel it is safe. They are planning to have the 2021 show but not betting the farm on the NSCC as it was in 2019. I don't speak for anyone but there is enough room in Rosemont to re-adjust if needed.

We can have shows but we have to be careful thereof.

Rich

Good luck to anyone making decisions about mask rules. That in and of itself could be a nightmare.

Rich Klein
09-19-2020, 08:39 AM
Good luck to anyone making decisions about mask rules. That in and of itself could be a nightmare.

Even here is Texas if the masks are mandated by county, state, etc then most of the people will honor that request. Kyle's August show had about 90 percent compliance. Not perfect but much better than June's show.

Rich

Exhibitman
09-19-2020, 10:26 AM
Absent a vaccine or good treatments and everyone behaving like a grown-up instead of an entitled child, I am not going regardless. Only an asshole gets killed for baseball cards.

conor912
09-19-2020, 10:41 AM
Regardless of vaccines, treatments, or compliance, masks are going to be around and a hot button issue for the next couple of years at least, I would think. I personally wouldn’t go to an indoor event with that many people without 100% enforced compliance, and even then I’d be on the fence. I know others feel differently it’s their right to do so....but my point being, I’m not sure if they’ll be able to make enough people comfortable with the situation to make it worth having the show in tue next couple of years. The end question is, it better to try and have it be a flop attendance-wise, or not have one at all?

ocjack
09-19-2020, 10:52 AM
Dependent on vaccines/masks/large indoor gatherings, maybe sometime next year, we could see the National morp into several large, regional shows. Less people, smaller venue, more (relatively speaking) safety.

I sense that many people believe the National, as is, has grown into something never intended by the original "trailblazers." Perhaps this give the collecting community the opportunity to get back to something closer to the original.

Exhibitman
09-19-2020, 11:55 AM
Well, you could definitely pick up the entire corporate section and move it to another room...or just drop it in the ocean with the 1952 Topps high numbers.

conor912
09-19-2020, 12:31 PM
Well, you could definitely pick up the entire corporate section and move it to another room...or just drop it in the ocean with the 1952 Topps high numbers.

Dependent on vaccines/masks/large indoor gatherings, maybe sometime next year, we could see the National morp into several large, regional shows. Less people, smaller venue, more (relatively speaking) safety.

I sense that many people believe the National, as is, has grown into something never intended by the original "trailblazers." Perhaps this give the collecting community the opportunity to get back to something closer to the original.

I understand the draw of one big show every year for several reasons I won’t go into. I do wonder how masks would inhibit the social piece of the show, which is a major one for most attendees. It’s a crappy situation for all involved. I do think that some careful planning and consideration could produce a pretty awesome virtual National. I know someone tried one, which I’m sure provided a lot of takeaways. It would require a patchwork (video, audio, IM) of, or possibly its own platform, but it could be cool. Not the same, but cool. You could still charge admission, dealer fees, everything. You could have speakers, lectures, special signings. You can still have breaks. They could run ads (commercials, basically) for corporate sponsors. These could offset the platform costs easily since you have no rent, union fees, etc to deal with. Yes it would be a logistical challenge, but anything that happens will be anyway, so what the hell.

Rich Klein
09-19-2020, 01:18 PM
I understand the draw of one big show every year for several reasons I won’t go into. I do wonder how masks would inhibit the social piece of the show, which is a major one for most attendees. It’s a crappy situation for all involved. I do think that some careful planning and consideration could produce a pretty awesome virtual National. I know someone tried one, which I’m sure provided a lot of takeaways. It would require a patchwork (video, audio, IM) of, or possibly its own platform, but it could be cool. Not the same, but cool. You could still charge admission, dealer fees, everything. You could have speakers, lectures, special signings. You can still have breaks. They could run ads (commercials, basically) for corporate sponsors. These could offset the platform costs easily since you have no rent, union fees, etc to deal with. Yes it would be a logistical challenge, but anything that happens will be anyway, so what the hell.

I will assure you Masks had almost no effect on socialization at Kyle's August show. Bigger issues would be with physical distancing what can the corporates do and the autograph areas. The card show area can actually with a few adjustments continue as it was.

Rich

ocjack
09-19-2020, 01:20 PM
Quick question: At a virtual convention, if I make a hot dog at home, do I have to send someone $12.00?

conor912
09-19-2020, 03:09 PM
Quick question: At a virtual convention, if I make a hot dog at home, do I have to send someone $12.00?

Without question :)

conor912
09-19-2020, 03:15 PM
I will assure you Masks had almost no effect on socialization at Kyle's August show. Bigger issues would be with physical distancing what can the corporates do and the autograph areas. The card show area can actually with a few adjustments continue as it was.

Rich

Im sure there’s plenty of physical space. I was speaking more to people’s comfort level (and how that would effect their willingness to go at all) as opposed to the geographical logistics. Im not saying its not possible...just curious how it would pan out. There’s really only one way to find out!

Rich Klein
09-19-2020, 07:47 PM
I can't say I disagree with that logic in any way. There are a whole bunch of people who want nothing to do with going out in public or to a show at this point. I certainly understand their position and I'm not going to change their beliefs.

On the other hand, there were approximately 1500 people who attended Kyle's 3-day August show (up from 1000-1100 in June) and I have not heard of anyone getting Covid-19 from those who were there. *Granted I don't know everyone*.

All I'm saying is by Chicago in 2021 I suspect there will be another group of people really anxious to go out and see cards in person rather than virtually.

Rich

lowpopper
09-19-2020, 11:22 PM
A west coast national is overdue.

68Hawk
09-20-2020, 12:44 AM
Here's a thought, though just had it so likely to be full of holes...

For a start, it could be outside. Open air, muuuuch safer - especially if done in concert with masks.
How, you might ask? Cardboard needs to be protected from the very least likely chance of rain....

I'm thinking in a place like Phoenix or Vegas.
In a venue set up under the already established protective canopies of....
The Parking Spot. Or similar. This image is of the one in Houston.
https://hosting.photobucket.com/images/ad12/flinchfree/The_Parking_Spot_Houston.jpg.png

Already fenced for the protection of cars.
They're low on business because of Covid and downturn in travel...

Or similar, as I said.
Open air, covered. That would do it, no?

nolemmings
09-20-2020, 01:10 AM
Here's a thought, though just had it so likely to be full of holes...

For a start, it could be outside. Open air, muuuuch safer - especially if done in concert with masks
How, you might ask? Cardboard needs to be protected from the very least likely chance of rain....

I'm thinking in a place like Phoenix or Vegas.
In a venue set up under the already established protective canopies of....
The Parking Spot. Or similar. This image is of the one in Houston.
https://hosting.photobucket.com/images/ad12/flinchfree/The_Parking_Spot_Houston.jpg.png

Already fenced for the protection of cars.
They're low on business because of Covid and downturn in travel...

Or similar, as I said.
Open air, covered. That would do it, no?

I don't think it's a bad idea in general--probably because I was thinking about that too :) No way it could here in Phoenix in August though. We had more than 50 days of 110 or higher this year--smashing the old record by about 20 days. The first of August would be an oven, and Vegas wouldn't be much different.

Still, I've been to some small outdoor shows that went well, at least from the customers' perspective--I'd be curious to hear feedback from the dealers on this. Definitely something out of the routine, it might make for a nice change of pace. BTW, it doesn't have to be with an asphalt parking lot. It can be on the grass with portable tenting or canopies; again, though, it would require some different kinds of planning and contingency preparedness. Actually sounds like a real good time.

68Hawk
09-20-2020, 01:46 AM
I don't think it's a bad idea in general--probably because I was thinking about that too :) No way it could here in Phoenix in August though. We had more than 50 days of 110 or higher this year--smashing the old record by about 20 days. The first of August would be an oven, and Vegas wouldn't be much different.

Still, I've been to some small outdoor shows that went well, at least from the customers' perspective--I'd be curious to hear feedback from the dealers on this. Definitely something out of the routine, it might make for a nice change of pace. BTW, it doesn't have to be with an asphalt parking lot. It can be on the grass with portable tenting or canopies; again, though, it would require some different kinds of planning and contingency preparedness. Actually sounds like a real good time.

Hey NL, if you were thinking it too then it couldn't have been a terrible idea!:D

I agree re temperature, was actually imaging an opportunity to do the whole "East Coast AND West Coast" National shows through this configuration, perhaps with the West Coast one running in March at approx Spring Break time, and an East Coast one later in the year closer to standard calendar...but maybe first week August. That would keep it warm as possible for outdoors in lets say a Philly locale, but equally spectacular in Vegas/Phoenix/Houston during March....

I was just liking the ease of current setup of the parking lot so that dealers could have their merch brought practically (on wheels) into the facility, everything stays pretty clean, you hire 20 guards round the clock to sit at various points around the perimeter to protect everyone's tables day and night.
Some of my favourite festivals and and trade shows (mainly Art) have been outdoors, has an entirely different feel and mood.

Anyway, something to think about as it would definitely help in terms of health and safety for attendees.

conor912
09-20-2020, 09:30 AM
I think its an interesting idea... like the Brimfield Fair in MA. One issue would be lodging. Any open field big enough to accommodate the show likely would be outside of a city, where lodging en masse might not exist. I do like the outside idea, though.

How about a HS or college football field? They’re privately owned so you wouldn’t have deal with a municipality and there’s usually several in or very close to major urban areas.

ValKehl
09-20-2020, 12:07 PM
With all the collector unhappiness with the NSCC (event locations, new dealers can't get space, too much space given to corporates, etc.), I'm quite surprised that some enterprising show promoter hasn't already created a "Winter National" or a "Spring Training National" as a better alternative to the NSCC. I have little doubt such an event would be successful.

icollectDCsports
09-20-2020, 12:22 PM
With all the collector unhappiness with the NSCC (event locations, new dealers can't get space, too much space given to corporates, etc.), I'm quite surprised that some enterprising show promoter hasn't already created a "Winter National" or a "Spring Training National" as a better alternative to the NSCC. I have little doubt such an event would be successful.

That's what I think every time I read the calls for the National to take place somewhere else. If there is demand for it, would like to see it happen.

Exhibitman
09-20-2020, 12:55 PM
The outdoor thing is a great idea but I think you'd have to go somewhere like Los Angeles for it because of the potential for rain in eastern and midwest cities. We are basically dry here from May through September.

JollyElm
09-20-2020, 01:15 PM
Wind. Wind is the first thing that comes to mind when I think about an outdoor show. How annoying is it when your napkins get blown away while eating outside? You spend most of your meal trying to devise new ways of anchoring those suckers down, so they don't ride the breeze when you deign to take a bite of your cheeseburger.

nolemmings
09-20-2020, 01:41 PM
My daydream always has it at a baseball field rather than football, in particular a moderate to high-grade minor league facility. Obviously the team would have to be out of town for several days to make it available, but given the shaky status of minor league baseball these days, who knows what might be available.

Just for grins, I checked the website of the St. Paul Saints, an independent team partly owned by comedian Bill Murray, who frequents their games (at least back in normal times). This facility and no doubt dozens of others can be found around the country, and offers itself as a venue for weddings, concerts, festivals, etc. FYI, the light rail can take you to the ballpark, to the Mall of America, both airport terminals and Target Field. Here, take a virtual tour.
http://chsfield.com/venue/virtual-tour
http://chsfield.com/venue/event-spaces/concerts-festivals

I thought about wind too, which is why I believe a mostly enclosed baseball stadium would provide a decent windbreak. As for rain, I thought about the canopies I see at Costco every now and then, which are not very expensive and are bought by a lot of tail-gaiters. These would not be of much help in a driving storm, but they would be great to shield at least some of the elements, and would be nice to have to keep the sun from beating down on the dealers all day. Surely there are more complex and effective coverings available if people give it some thought and planning.

A baseball stadium would also have great seating for those looking to take a load off, and concession stands should not be a problem. Depending on configuration, there could be grandstand overhangs providing some protection also, and who knows, maybe tables could be set up in the concourses. Also, many have meeting or gathering rooms that could handle, say, a net54 dinner :)

x2drich2000
09-20-2020, 01:48 PM
With all the collector unhappiness with the NSCC (event locations, new dealers can't get space, too much space given to corporates, etc.), I'm quite surprised that some enterprising show promoter hasn't already created a "Winter National" or a "Spring Training National" as a better alternative to the NSCC. I have little doubt such an event would be successful.

Val, while I too am a bit surprised no one else has tried (that we know of), I think one of the biggest hurdles is actually getting the corporate booths and autograph guests (tri-star) willing to put out a 2nd show. I don't see the motivation they would have to just drop the current show and, while you and I may not care, i don't think the national would be what it currently is without them.

conor912
09-20-2020, 02:00 PM
Wind. Wind is the first thing that comes to mind when I think about an outdoor show. How annoying is it when your napkins get blown away while eating outside? You spend most of your meal trying to devise new ways of anchoring those suckers down, so they don't ride the breeze when you deign to take a bite of your cheeseburger.

Each table will be supplied with a rock. Problem solved.

conor912
09-20-2020, 02:03 PM
My daydream always has it at a baseball field rather than football, in particular a moderate to high-grade minor league facility. Obviously the team would have to be out of town for several days to make it available, but given the shaky status of minor league baseball these days, who knows what might be available.

Just for grins, I checked the website of the St. Paul Saints, an independent team partly owned by comedian Bill Murray, who frequents their games (at least back in normal times). This facility and no doubt dozens of others can be found around the country, and offers itself as a venue for weddings, concerts, festivals, etc. FYI, the light rail can take you to the ballpark, to the Mall of America, both airport terminals and Target Field. Here, take a virtual tour.
http://chsfield.com/venue/virtual-tour
http://chsfield.com/venue/event-spaces/concerts-festivals

I thought about wind too, which is why I believe a mostly enclosed baseball stadium would provide a decent windbreak. As for rain, I thought about the canopies I see at Costco every now and then, which are not very expensive and are bought by a lot of tail-gaiters. These would not be of much help in a driving storm, but they would be great to shield at least some of the elements, and would be nice to have to keep the sun from beating down on the dealers all day. Surely there are more complex and effective coverings available if people give it some thought and planning.

A baseball stadium would also have great seating for those looking to take a load off, and concession stands should not be a problem. Depending on configuration, there could be grandstand overhangs providing some protection also, and who knows, maybe tables could be set up in the concourses. Also, many have meeting or gathering rooms that could handle, say, a net54 dinner :)

I like this. I was thinking along the same lines as far as availability. There's got to be countless ballparks that would love to sign a big event contract right now, probably at a very favorable rate, too.

Exhibitman
09-20-2020, 04:57 PM
The ramp-up to putting on a major show is steep.

Even just running a local show is expensive and time-consuming. It isn't just decorating the barn and puttin' on a show. Minimally, if you assume a venue with its own supplies (tables, chairs, etc.) you have to locate and book the venue, secure insurance, plan marketing and execute, draft vendor contracts, secure required business licenses, get vendors and all required documents from them. The day of the show you have to make sure everything is good to go, arrange an orderly move-in and set-up, staff and run the show, then coordinate move-out and break-down, all of which is like herding cats. If you go for autograph guests or other special stuff you need to arrange, market and pay for that too. And you will bleed money for a while trying to get things going unless you have access to a venue at little or no cost.

ajjohnsonsoxfan
09-20-2020, 06:10 PM
Thanks Adam, you just shut this thread down for good with that dose of reality. LOL

conor912
09-20-2020, 08:37 PM
The ramp-up to putting on a major show is steep.

Even just running a local show is expensive and time-consuming. It isn't just decorating the barn and puttin' on a show. Minimally, if you assume a venue with its own supplies (tables, chairs, etc.) you have to locate and book the venue, secure insurance, plan marketing and execute, draft vendor contracts, secure required business licenses, get vendors and all required documents from them. The day of the show you have to make sure everything is good to go, arrange an orderly move-in and set-up, staff and run the show, then coordinate move-out and break-down, all of which is like herding cats. If you go for autograph guests or other special stuff you need to arrange, market and pay for that too. And you will bleed money for a while trying to get things going unless you have access to a venue at little or no cost.

So you don’t want a fish sandwich?

Exhibitman
09-20-2020, 11:50 PM
So you don’t want a fish sandwich?

Ummm, no?

Don't get me wrong: running a show was great fun too, but it is a lot of work and if you are planning to do anything more ambitious than a small local show you really do need a lot of time and a hefty bankroll to devote to it. if I was retired, for example, and had some help to do it, and COVID was over with, I would definitely consider starting, running on a regular basis, and hopefully growing a small show. Last time round we (myself and two partners) broke even on our third (and last) show but by then we'd lost our collective stomach for doing more. Oh, also add the accounting and security to the work list.

Clemaz
09-21-2020, 06:20 AM
I vote for Pittsburgh. It has one of the nicest stadiums in the country. Plus I only live 7 miles away from it [emoji41]


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

conor912
09-21-2020, 08:28 AM
Ummm, no?

It’s a Ladies Man quote. I knew it was a longshot :)

buymycards
09-21-2020, 09:35 AM
This has nothing to do with the topic, but I remember some of the smaller shows back in the 1990's where we had to bring our own tables.

BillyCoxDodgers3B
09-22-2020, 01:22 PM
I've been to maybe half the Nationals in the last 10 years. Didn't make a single notable pickup; just a handful of cheaper items that I actually could have done without. Any sales I had could have been done outside of the National setting, so there's another strike against my ever returning.

The area of Cleveland surrounding the I-X isn't exactly a hopping place for things to do, so that won't be missed. It was a huge cut above going to Baltimore, with its weather just half a degree below hell. It was also wonderful to be able to drive right up and park at the I-X, both as a dealer and as someone walking in the front door. That will be sorely missed.

Prior to 10 years ago, I had my greatest National successes in Cleveland. After constant disappointments when the show was in other cities, I could always think positively about the next Cleveland National. That streak of success ended with the last colossally disappointing Cleveland show. After that, I decided I'm done with the convention altogether. How many years do I have to walk by the same dealers with the same inventories? And I'm paying for this privilege? It would be nice to see some new faces set up and maybe, just maybe, new material. Let me know when that happens; I gave up.

conor912
09-22-2020, 01:48 PM
Is there usually a waitlist for tables at the National or do they more or less have a table for anyone willing to pay the fee?

Aquarian Sports Cards
09-22-2020, 01:55 PM
It's almost impossible to get into as a dealer if you haven't already been doing it.

conor912
09-22-2020, 02:24 PM
I've been to maybe half the Nationals in the last 10 years. Didn't make a single notable pickup; just a handful of cheaper items that I actually could have done without. Any sales I had could have been done outside of the National setting, so there's another strike against my ever returning.

The area of Cleveland surrounding the I-X isn't exactly a hopping place for things to do, so that won't be missed. It was a huge cut above going to Baltimore, with its weather just half a degree below hell. It was also wonderful to be able to drive right up and park at the I-X, both as a dealer and as someone walking in the front door. That will be sorely missed.

Prior to 10 years ago, I had my greatest National successes in Cleveland. After constant disappointments when the show was in other cities, I could always think positively about the next Cleveland National. That streak of success ended with the last colossally disappointing Cleveland show. After that, I decided I'm done with the convention altogether. How many years do I have to walk by the same dealers with the same inventories? And I'm paying for this privilege? It would be nice to see some new faces set up and maybe, just maybe, new material. Let me know when that happens; I gave up.

It's almost impossible to get into as a dealer if you haven't already been doing it.

Hmmm....and what about demand? I know tables/booths are expensive, but anyone have any idea about how many would-be set-uppers there would be if there was availability? I know no one knows for sure, but is it a few...several...quite a few....a shit ton?

Exhibitman
09-22-2020, 02:43 PM
Varies by location, Conor, which is one reason to rotate the show across the whole USA. As I said above, one of the better things with the show when it moved around were the locals who turned up. There are definitely fewer card dealer tables offered than in the past. More corporate space and manufactured memorabilia/souvenir people.

As for what's at the show, yeah, definitely you will tend to see the same inventory from the more veteran dealers but there is also a ton of other stuff if you dig. I can only think of two shows (Chicago in 2008 and AC the last time) where I found nothing of note worth buying. Plus even the common stuff is available at such great volume and pricing that you can fill out mainstream sets and runs for a lot less than via eBay or otherwise. I know the last time out I ran across a big stack of cards from a vintage basketball set I was working and knocked off all but two of the cards I needed for a tiny fraction of what I would have paid online. It happens. And just so as not to keep anyone in suspense:

https://photos.imageevent.com/exhibitman/basketball/websize/img716.jpg

It was the 1971 Fleer Cocoa Puffs Harlem Globetrotters set, which I finished earlier this year.

68Hawk
09-22-2020, 06:29 PM
................. I know the last time out I ran across a big stack of cards from a vintage basketball set I was working and knocked off all but two of the cards I needed for a tiny fraction of what I would have paid online. It happens. And just so as not to keep anyone in suspense:

https://photos.imageevent.com/exhibitman/basketball/websize/img716.jpg

It was the 1971 Fleer Cocoa Puffs Harlem Globetrotters set, which I finished earlier this year.

Those cards are super cool.

BillyCoxDodgers3B
09-22-2020, 07:03 PM
Adam: That's great, but how much did these cards end up running you when you figure in time, travel, lodging and food/drink? I'm thinking you'd have saved money by buying them online at higher prices. Don't worry, I understand that's not your only reason for going!

I think most people can relate to your example. I constantly find myself in need of multiple copies of rather cheap commons for autograph purposes. Online, the cost adds up due to markup and often having to pay S&H to several sellers in order to acquire what is needed. At the National, I can knock off most of these needs all at once for much less...until I factor in how much that trip cost me! Sadly, all I found at my last National were commons such as these. And that sort of thing is the least of what I'm hoping to find. When you're having a successful show in other regards like in the distant past, finding a bunch of commons was just a nice added convenience. If that's the highlight of a faraway show, I'm done.

icollectDCsports
09-22-2020, 07:16 PM
I've been to a few Nationals and I've only found a few items that I may not have found elsewhere, and I'm sure that I vastly overpaid for them if you factor in travel and other expenses of going to the show. But I just like being around and seeing all of the stuff, even items I'm not remotely interested in buying, just because I think it's so cool. The Big Show experience is fun in and of itself.

Exhibitman
09-22-2020, 08:18 PM
Adam: That's great, but how much did these cards end up running you when you figure in time, travel, lodging and food/drink? I'm thinking you'd have saved money by buying them online at higher prices. Don't worry, I understand that's not your only reason for going!



I don't think of it that way; the Natty trip is (was) my vacation. The cards are great but the evenings visiting with friends in the hotel bars are priceless.