Mike Baker Authenticated

[DanP]

I thought of this same concept years ago and knew it would be coming someday.

I know many of you won't like it, but I think another opinion certifying the grade is a great idea.

I don't really understand how the three levels silver, gold, and black work (only spent 10 seconds looking at the site).

I see MBA certified listed in auctions already and suspect these cards will get premium $.

If this was already discussed, feel free to ignore this post (didn't see anything in a search).

Other thoughts?

[Exhibitman]

Double secret certification...

https://photos.imageevent.com/exhibitman/dropins/websize/deanwormer.jpg

[HRBAKER]

Will he slab the slab?
God I can only hope so.

[DanP]

I know you said that jokingly, but when I thought of this same concept years ago, that was my vision.

I know you and many others are probably laughing, but many people (including me) display their cards. A premium slab that encapsulated SGC, BVG and PSA cases could display really nicely.

I guess now that I said that out loud (and typed it), it does sound a little silly but I've seen crazier ideas make a lot of money.

[swarmee]

Is this different than the other GAI guy with the Diamond stickers?

So now we have at least a fourth one after Purple Label and PWCC?

[Jcosta19]

CAC does this for graded coins with a hologram sticker

Sent from my SM-G960U using Tapatalk

[icollectDCsports]

Lol

[Leon]

I thought of this same concept years ago and knew it would be coming someday.

I know many of you won't like it, but I think another opinion certifying the grade is a great idea.

I don't really understand how the three levels silver, gold, and black work (only spent 10 seconds looking at the site).

I see MBA certified listed in auctions already and suspect these cards will get premium $.

If this was already discussed, feel free to ignore this post (didn't see anything in a search).

Other thoughts?


I guess a 2nd pair of eyes is good but it really shouldn't be needed if the TPGs do their jobs correctly. But not a bad idea as others are doing it, or have tried to do it, recently.

[DanP]

I guess a 2nd pair of eyes is good but it really shouldn't be needed if the TPGs do their jobs correctly. But not a bad idea as others are doing it, or have tried to do it, recently.

I hear what you’re saying Leon. But remember, all of us make mistakes in our job. Luckily, most of the time they go unnoticed (unless you’re in the restaurant business where you’re expected to be perfect).

I am terrible at judging the quality of a card. I trust that TPGs would do a better job than I would and 99% of the time that’s true. I also like having another opinion.

What’s nice is if you don’t like it, ignore the MBA or even PSA/SGC/BGS label. The grade is a guide to get you started. The final review is up to the buyer.

[Exhibitman]

Remora (noun): Remora spend their lives clinging to a host animal such as a whale, turtle, shark or ray. Although it was initially believed that remoras fed off particulate matter from the host's meals, this has been shown to be false; in reality, their diets are composed primarily of host feces.

Sound about right?

[rdwyer]

Confused. Wasn't Mike Baker the one who graded trimmed cards for GAI?

[bobbyw8469]

Confused. Wasn't Mike Baker the one who graded trimmed cards for GAI?

I believe so.

[HRBAKER]

Just think then we could have High-End Certified Certified.

[x2drich2000]

I thought the Mike Baker GAI graded cards were generally considered good? If I remember correctly, wasn't he also at one time the head grader at PSA?

[Throttlesteer]

As a business model, it sounds like a very risky idea. If a new grading company came around and did their job the first time around, these piggy-backers would be out of business overnight.

[rdwyer]

I thought the Mike Baker GAI graded cards were generally considered good? If I remember correctly, wasn't he also at one time the head grader at PSA?

I think you're talking about Steve Rochi.

[lowpopper]

Love the idea. More sticker companies will pop up.

The only question is which ones will become the top dogs?

[icollectDCsports]

A sticker on a slab that is further slabbed and stickered. It's turtles all the way down . . .

[swarmee]

Examples are starting to show up...
https://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20201014/a4e243e2fa15495096f94b387c159c9e.jpg

Y'all have fun with that...

[bnorth]

Examples are starting to show up...
https://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20201014/a4e243e2fa15495096f94b387c159c9e.jpg

Y'all have fun with that...

Look at the bright side, he can't be worse than the others already doing it.;):D

[rdwyer]

Yes he can be worse. He was famous for slabbing trimmed cards for GAI until they were driven into the ground.

[drcy]

A saying is "That a lot of people do it, doesn't make it any less stupid."

[bnorth]

Yes he can be worse. He was famous for slabbing trimmed cards for GAI until they were driven into the ground.

Supposedly he done the same with Global Authority. Then again look at who else is putting stickers on slabs.:D

[HRBAKER]

Give the people what they want.
Evidently there's no end to what they will embrace (pay for).

[Bigdaddy]

But who's gonna slab his slab? Eventually all things merge into one, and a slab runs through it..

[Exhibitman]

Examples are starting to show up...
https://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20201014/a4e243e2fa15495096f94b387c159c9e.jpg

Y'all have fun with that...

https://photos.imageevent.com/exhibitman/dropins/Jeong%20jack.gif

[todeen]

But who's gonna slab his slab? Eventually all things merge into one, and a slab runs through it..Hahahahahaha great movie quote!

Sent from my SAMSUNG-SM-G930A using Tapatalk

[Casey2296]

It's all bullshit until these "entrepreneurs" offer a money back guarantee. Is Mike and the rest of the "to the best of my knowledge" crowd willing to risk their financial well being on their word? That's what they're selling.

Integrity, are you willing to put up your house if you're wrong?

Phil Lewis

[Aquarian Sports Cards]

"...been awarded a MBA..." nice grammar.

[Huysmans]

I hear what you’re saying Leon. But remember, all of us make mistakes in our job. Luckily, most of the time they go unnoticed (unless you’re in the restaurant business where you’re expected to be perfect).

I am terrible at judging the quality of a card. I trust that TPGs would do a better job than I would and 99% of the time that’s true. I also like having another opinion.

What’s nice is if you don’t like it, ignore the MBA or even PSA/SGC/BGS label. The grade is a guide to get you started. The final review is up to the buyer.

The restaurant part made me laugh. It's 2020... NO ONE is expected to be perfect, at, well... literally anything anymore. Anything less than sheer and utter incompetence is completely acceptable these days.

Case in point, since moving to Montreal, my expectations are now as low as possible. I can honestly say that my meals are screwed up at least 50% of the time when I order or go out here, and you get no sympathy from staff or management whatsoever.
If you complain, they act like you're the problem. It's pathetic...

Rant over :D

[steve B]

So many stickers....

Part of me wants to buy a really nice Nascar card and get as many of those new stickers as possible on the slab.

[Fred]

Does anyone want to join me in the N54 AUTHENTICATION Super Service. We can call it N54 ASS. It will be a unique AUTHENTICATION TO THE AUTHENTICATION service.

We can come up with a really cool looking logo. The difference between the N54 ASS and the "other guys" is we will offer a certification number for the logo (for a nominal charge).

Who says we can't have 6 minute abs?

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BJgzXJ4AX_Y

Not sure if I'd go with a Baker auth. As others have mentioned, GAI was good to begin with, then the trimmed cards were being slabbed with numerical numbers. Step into my office... N54 ASS!

[Michael B]

Does anyone want to join me in the N54 AUTHENTICATION Super Service. We can call it N54 ASS. It will be a unique AUTHENTICATION TO THE AUTHENTICATION service.

We can come up with a really cool looking logo. The difference between the N54 ASS and the "other guys" is we will offer a certification number for the logo (for a nominal charge).

Who says we can't have 6 minute abs?

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BJgzXJ4AX_Y

Not sure if I'd go with a Baker auth. As others have mentioned, GAI was good to begin with, then the trimmed cards were being slabbed with numerical numbers. Step into my office... N54 ASS!

Our spokesperson can be Large Ass Herzog.

[perezfan]

A serious question...

Will Baker be removing the cards from the slabs, to examine them? The only reason a service like this would add value, is to deem a questionable card as being altered or unaltered. Quite often you cannot determine alteration, if the card resides in a slab.

Look at the thousands of PSA altered examples residing in numbered slabs... for many of these, you'd need to examine the edges/sides of the card. I view this service as worthless, unless he can examine the raw card.

As far as agreeing with the grade... beauty should be in the eye of the beholder. Not some profiteering opportunist.

[bnorth]

A serious question...

Will Baker be removing the cards from the slabs, to examine them? The only reason a service like this would add value, is to deem a questionable card as being altered or unaltered. Quite often you cannot determine alteration, if the card resides in a slab.

Look at the thousands of PSA altered examples residing in numbered slabs... for many of these, you'd need to examine the edges/sides of the card. I view this service as worthless, unless he can examine the raw card.

As far as agreeing with the grade... beauty should be in the eye of the beholder. Not some profiteering opportunist.

Of the 3 companies(LOL) I know of they do not remove the card from the holder. Wouldn't removing the card make the process worthless(not that it already isn't)?

[icollectDCsports]

So many stickers....

Part of me wants to buy a really nice Nascar card and get as many of those new stickers as possible on the slab.

I think you're on to something. If one sticker is good, wouldn't multiple stickers -- as many as possible -- be better?

[bnorth]

I think you're on to something. If one sticker is good, wouldn't multiple stickers -- as many as possible -- be better?

The more the better for sure. You could easily get a few hundred just in grading fees on a card you could buy raw for $5.:D

[Throttlesteer]

Now if someone could sticker cards that haven't been owned by known scammers, doctors, or other bad actors, I might pay for that.

[swarmee]

Now if someone could sticker cards that haven't been owned by known scammers, doctors, or other bad actors, I might pay for that.
And the stickers would automatically detach themselves once they sense touch DNA from one of them...

[swarmee]

The blowout guys are having a field day because of all the spelling/grammar errors on the card, and the fact that he's sending out "You have an MBA authenticated Gold Label PSA Card" with SGC graded cards...

[Aquarian Sports Cards]

Also nobody has mentioned it yet, but wtf is the difference between a high end and a low end PSA 10???

[bnorth]

Also nobody has mentioned it yet, but wtf is the difference between a high end and a low end PSA 10???

A cool sticker.;)

[icollectDCsports]

A cool sticker.;)

Yes, but wait for the low high-end and the high low-end variations.

[Fred]

Also nobody has mentioned it yet, but wtf is the difference between a high end and a low end PSA 10???

9.98 - 9.99 - 10.0 - 10.01 - 10.02.... it's subjective! That .02 difference could mean 10's of thousands of $$$ to two people that want to pay for that .02 difference.

[swarmee]

Also nobody has mentioned it yet, but wtf is the difference between a high end and a low end PSA 10???
Normally it would be centering, as a PSA 10 can technically be centered 60/40 and most collectors consider centering the most important sub grade for eye appeal. It's also the easiest to measure and/or determine it without an expert.

[drcy]

There's nothing "wrong" with it, but I don't see the point of paying for a service that one can do one one's own: examine the image of the card.

Same goes for grades on autographs. If you can't tell an sharpie signature is Mint you should probably not be collecting autographs.

But I know, I know. These are "investments."

[Snowman]

Digging up this old thread because I'm about to send off some cards to MBA that I think are under-graded. I realize that it sounds ridiculous to pay someone to "grade the graders", but this does address/solve some of the problems with grading today. So many cards are now being criminally under graded by PSA; as well as SGC, although I would argue less so. I have recently graded cards in PSA 6 slabs that look like they belong in an 8 holder. Also, centering and overall eye appeal are extremely important with vintage cards. And while, yes, you can see the centering on a scan, you often can't see other minor flaws that greatly affect the eye appeal of a card in hand. How many times have we all bought that nicely centered VG-EX 4 card thinking we found a diamond in the rough only to have it show up with a surface crease/wrinkle that you couldn't see from the scans? That's just the limitations of buying and selling cards online, which is where the vast majority of cards trade hands nowadays.

I think this service addresses some of these challenges, and the market clearly agrees. The data is in on MBA Diamond stickered cards, and they sell for a significant premium, often bringing the price of a full grade bump higher for the Gold stickers. And no, it's not just the premium that a well-centered card would have otherwise gotten. It definitely adds value (I ran an ANCOVA model with the data and the stickers are statistically significant even after accounting for cards being well-centered). Sure, you could risk cracking your "under-graded" cards out and sending them back in for grading again, hoping to get a bump, but with grading fees as high as they are today, and with PSA and with how ridiculously harsh they're being with many of their grades now, it's often just not worth it. Plus, I think the Gold Diamond stickers look nice. They're subtle and classy looking. Especially on the newer SGC tuxedo slabs.

Here's an example of one of the cards I'm planning to send off to MBA. This Gretzky RC is laughably under-graded. This is not an EX-MT card. Anyone selling this card raw would describe it as NM or NM-MT and no buyers would ever question that description upon receiving it. I could crack it and send it back to PSA. Maybe they give me a 7? Perhaps an 8? Who knows. But perfectly centered, under-graded cards with great eye appeal are very difficult to find in this hobby. I say they deserve an award, and I plan on giving mine little gold diamond stickers because I like how they look. It's like the trophy shelf of my collection. And they display nicely too. Plus, now I can tell that clown who says, "comps for a PSA 5 are about $5k" to take a hike just that much more easily without having to defend why I'm asking above "comps" if I ever decide to sell.

Don't get me wrong, I fully realize why many collectors have no interest in this service. But this is why I like them and why I plan to send off many of my favorite cards to MBA. Sometimes the grading companies just get it wrong. And if Mike Baker agrees that they "got it wrong" or that it's a premium card of that grade, then I'm definitely willing to pay a significant premium as a buyer over some random eBay listing where the seller writes "LOOKS BETTER" in the title only to have it show up with a crease and 7 indents on it.

[1880nonsports]

I'm about to send off some cards to MBA that I think are under-graded.
You lost me with the first sentence. It got worse all the way to the end.........

So you'll send it in. Mike will LYK and everyone else who examines the card and looks on the back that it's under graded and give you a sticker. You now display some other companies "INCORRECTLY" graded card with a sticker from someone else who says it's better than that.
Who exactly is Mike Baker and what are the credentials other people would find impressive?

If it's about wanting to resell an incorrectly labeled graded card for an amount commensurate with it's "real(?)" grade you would need people to care about what Mike says (Mikey likes it cereal).

If it's about confirming what your keen mind and eyes have told you - you seem to do that pretty well on your own :-)

[Frank A]

Confused. Wasn't Mike Baker the one who graded trimmed cards for GAI?

NO!!!!!!!

[1880nonsports]

you are incorrectly impugning someone's reputation without knowing anything about him or what actually went on at a couple of grading companies....... A negative suggestion followed by affirmation from another person and voila! He was the boogeyman. I believe he was heralded as top drawer grader.

[bnorth]

you are incorrectly impugning someone's reputation without knowing anything about him or what actually went on at a couple of grading companies....... A negative suggestion followed by affirmation from another person and voila! He was the boogeyman. I believe he was heralded as top drawer grader.

Serious question. If he was a top grader and a good guy what the hell happened with all the graded altered cards?

Also not sure if true but according to the last owner(Damian Werner) of GAI/Global Authority Mike Baker was still the grader till they completely shut down due to complete incompetence and not returning submitters cards.

[Yoda]

In or around 2000 the hobby was abuzz with the news that a new grading company was about to launch. Steve Rocci, President, and Mike Baker, Head Grader, had left PSA to form GAI with backing from several deep pockets investors. Early reaction from dealers was overwhelmingly supportive due in no small part to Baker's sterling reputation. I recall the Ft. Washington show around then when GAI was doing on site grading for, I believe, the first time. Dealers were cracking cards out cards from PSA slabs and submitting them to Mike because he had graded the same cards at PSA.
I really don't know why SGC went south but a counter guarantee from Mike certainly should enhance value for those who care. It's not for me, but I understand how others could see it differently.

[Rich Klein]

FYI: They are at almost all the large Dallas Card Shows so anyone who is interested and comes to those events can find out for themselves with 1st person evidence and come away with their own conclusions.

Regards
Rich

[Snowman]

I'm about to send off some cards to MBA that I think are under-graded.
You lost me with the first sentence. It got worse all the way to the end.........

So you'll send it in. Mike will LYK and everyone else who examines the card and looks on the back that it's under graded and give you a sticker. You now display some other companies "INCORRECTLY" graded card with a sticker from someone else who says it's better than that.
Who exactly is Mike Baker and what are the credentials other people would find impressive?

If it's about wanting to resell an incorrectly labeled graded card for an amount commensurate with it's "real(?)" grade you would need people to care about what Mike says (Mikey likes it cereal).

If it's about confirming what your keen mind and eyes have told you - you seem to do that pretty well on your own :-)


So, just to clarify. Should I put you down in the 'nay' column?

[Lorewalker]

In or around 2000 the hobby was abuzz with the news that a new grading company was about to launch. Steve Rocci, President, and Mike Baker, Head Grader, had left PSA to form GAI with backing from several deep pockets investors. Early reaction from dealers was overwhelmingly supportive due in no small part to Baker's sterling reputation. I recall the Ft. Washington show around then when GAI was doing on site grading for, I believe, the first time. Dealers were cracking cards out cards from PSA slabs and submitting them to Mike because he had graded the same cards at PSA.
I really don't know why SGC went south but a counter guarantee from Mike certainly should enhance value for those who care. It's not for me, but I understand how others could see it differently.

Yeah not for me either. I think we all can see when a card appears to have been graded conservatively...or not and know what to pay accordingly. Once a card is in a holder, a full assessment is not possible so at best they can give a nod to a card based on an incomplete review.

The other issue I have with this concept of only certifying high end cards is that we do not get their opinion on a card they do not certify and why. So to me, as a whole, it is a one-sided assurance. Nobody would pay them to certify the card is altered in the holder, as an example.

If someone wants to pay them for that service because of Mike's rep, go for it and if someone is actually willing to pay a premium for it, good for them.

[Peter_Spaeth]

It's about as meaningful as those absurd PWCC eye appeal ratings, but PT Barnum was assuredly right.

Or, as the song goes, you gotta have a gimmick, if you want to get ahead.

[BobC]

Yeah not for me either. I think we all can see when a card appears to have been graded conservatively...or not and know what to pay accordingly. Once a card is in a holder, a full assessment is not possible so at best they can give a nod to a card based on an incomplete review.

The other issue I have with this concept of only certifying high end cards is that we do not get their opinion on a card they do not certify and why. So to me, as a whole, it is a one-sided assurance. Nobody would pay them to certify the card is altered in the holder, as an example.

If someone wants to pay them for that service because of Mike's rep, go for it and if someone is actually willing to pay a premium for it, good for them.

Great point Chase. Just because one card has a high-end sticker on it, while another of the exact same card and grade does not, doesn't guarantee that the card without the sticker couldn't actually be in even nicer shape with better eye appeal than the stickered card. It is basically just another way for people to milk more money out of collectors, by preying on their inexperience, or fears that they can't always accurately tell from scans and images what a card really looks like in hand.

[BobC]

It's about as meaningful as those absurd PWCC eye appeal ratings, but PT Barnum was assuredly right.

Or, as the song goes, you gotta have a gimmick, if you want to get ahead.

+1

[chalupacollects]

Well now it's buy the card not the sticker?

[JustinD]

So, just to clarify. Should I put you down in the 'nay' column?

You can add me too.

Sounds like another feel good service for "Card Karens" (I'll let you have that one Darren, lol) that just can't accept what is technically already an opinion and want it supplemented with a better one.

I saw this on a YouTube card show review a few weeks ago and laughed it off. Let's be straight here, the biggest selling point for PSAs success is the registry. I feel for them that someone is now going to call (everyone knows this likely already happened but heck, I'll make the story future state.) and demand that based on this yellow piece of paper they want a higher level in their Mike Trout registry. I bet they will just jump on that.

My eyes are the determiner of what is nice... I do not care, will not care, and will not do anything but walk away from someone trying to sell me one of these flim-flam scams at a higher price. These yellow cards would be circular filed and stickers peeled off the second I unpack it.

I will immediately give credit to the first service that does not simply just not grant an upgrade to the sucker on the line, but rather downgrades the card below the assigned grade. If you take your task that seriously you don't have my business, but you have my respect. :D

https://media2.giphy.com/media/3o6Zt12HQ5m6rrHQUE/giphy.gif

[Lorewalker]

Great point Chase. Just because one card has a high-end sticker on it, while another of the exact same card and grade does not, doesn't guarantee that the card without the sticker couldn't actually be in even nicer shape with better eye appeal than the stickered card. It is basically just another way for people to milk more money out of collectors, by preying on their inexperience, or fears that they can't always accurately tell from scans and images what a card really looks like in hand.

Also Bob, unless we are comparing the sale of the exact card without the MBA certification in a parallel universe, how do we know that the MBA certification adds anything to the value of the card? The card might have reached that price without the certification because...the persons bidding on it can see for themselves :eek: that it is a nice example.

[theuclakid]

business model aside, Mike Baker was the head grader or one of the head graders in the 1990's at PSA before he and Steve Rocci left PSA to start GAI in about 2001...for a multitude of reasons as I recall...GAI's grading, in my opinion, was well respected through about 2005, when changes were made to the company, one other important grader who had left PSA also, name escapes me, left GAI, investors changing etc....this is from what I heard...the company went downhill after that unfortunately...but their early grades were solid...it is too bad their graded cards do not sell....Bruce Perry

[Santo10Fan]

Will he slab the slab?
God I can only hope so. This

[BobC]

Also Bob, unless we are comparing the sale of the exact card without the MBA certification in a parallel universe, how do we know that the MBA certification adds anything to the value of the card? The card might have reached that price without the certification because...the persons bidding on it can see for themselves :eek: that it is a nice example.

True dat! Exactly why I agree with you. LOL

[Yoda]

Chase, gadzooks! Can you possibly mean that collectors can actually grade their own cards? What can possibly be coming next?

[Lorewalker]

Chase, gadzooks! Can you possibly mean that collectors can actually grade their own cards? What can possibly be coming next?

I know John. Some of us have been doing it shortly after getting into the hobby but others of us need 3rd party validation of third party assessments. Wow reading that actually made me laugh.

Then again we are in the era of fractional ownership, vaults and NFTs where you can either own a piece of something you can never handle, own something you can never handle or worse, own something that is only virtual.

Maybe the MBA route is not so bad after all?

[Snowman]

I'm pretty happy with this one.

[Aquarian Sports Cards]

Do the stickers come off cleanly or do they leave a residue?

[Snowman]

Do the stickers come off cleanly or do they leave a residue?

I'm not sure. I haven't tried.

[Carter08]

Seems a bit excessive.

[Dead-Ball-Hitter]

Digging up this old thread because I'm about to send off some cards to MBA that I think are under-graded. I realize that it sounds ridiculous to pay someone to "grade the graders", but this does address/solve some of the problems with grading today. So many cards are now being criminally under graded by PSA; as well as SGC, although I would argue less so. I have recently graded cards in PSA 6 slabs that look like they belong in an 8 holder. Also, centering and overall eye appeal are extremely important with vintage cards. And while, yes, you can see the centering on a scan, you often can't see other minor flaws that greatly affect the eye appeal of a card in hand. How many times have we all bought that nicely centered VG-EX 4 card thinking we found a diamond in the rough only to have it show up with a surface crease/wrinkle that you couldn't see from the scans? That's just the limitations of buying and selling cards online, which is where the vast majority of cards trade hands nowadays.

I think this service addresses some of these challenges, and the market clearly agrees. The data is in on MBA Diamond stickered cards, and they sell for a significant premium, often bringing the price of a full grade bump higher for the Gold stickers. And no, it's not just the premium that a well-centered card would have otherwise gotten. It definitely adds value (I ran an ANCOVA model with the data and the stickers are statistically significant even after accounting for cards being well-centered). Sure, you could risk cracking your "under-graded" cards out and sending them back in for grading again, hoping to get a bump, but with grading fees as high as they are today, and with PSA and with how ridiculously harsh they're being with many of their grades now, it's often just not worth it. Plus, I think the Gold Diamond stickers look nice. They're subtle and classy looking. Especially on the newer SGC tuxedo slabs.

Well, I hate to say it, but I fear you’ll be wasting your money. Honestly, stickers don’t mean much to collectors; most view them as a gimmick to sell cards. In the coin arena, stickers have a little cache, but all the ridiculous PWCC stickers are viewed as scams to increase the sales price. I have personally pealed these off of slabs.

Mike Baker was always a nice guy, I talked with him at length back in the day, but his name carries absolutely no weight today, and his GAI business ventures ruined his once fairly good name. I don’t mean to put the guy down, but this is just a poor marketing ploy used by folks dissatisfied by their card’s actual grade.

[Snowman]

Well, I hate to say it, but I fear you’ll be wasting your money. Honestly, stickers don’t mean much to collectors; most view them as a gimmick to sell cards. In the coin arena, stickers have a little cache, but all the ridiculous PWCC stickers are viewed as scams to increase the sales price. I have personally pealed these off of slabs.

I'm not getting the stickers because I want to flip them. They're for me. This is for my PC cards. That said, I agree that the stickers don't mean much to at least a plurality of collectors. There is no shortage of venom spewed at those who prefer and value cards with such stickers on them by the internet forum heroes this hobby so desperately needs. You're free to think of it as a "gimmick to sell cards", but if you look at the population of cards that have been awarded these stickers, you'll quickly realize that they are far superior copies of those cards when it comes to eye appeal, and centering in particular. I would take a perfectly centered 4 over any 9 that isn't perfectly centered all day for any card. It's just that important to me. The grading scales used by PSA, SGC, et al are borderline meaningless to me as a collector. Literally, the only thing I care about is eye appeal. I couldn't give a shit how sharp some corners are or if there's chipping along the edges of a card. Cards that get awarded "gold diamonds" or "PWCC-S" stickers always stand out to me. I've never seen a single one that wasn't an absolute stunner. The same isn't true though of cards with a number grade. Even PSA 10s often look like trash to me because they are violently off-centered.

I don't think of the stickers as a way to "get more money out of people". I think of it as an awards ceremony for my PC. What are the best of the best cards I own as far as eye-appeal goes? I'm giving them little awards that I find aesthetically pleasing.

As far as the broader market goes, the stickers do command a premium. The market indeed values Mike Baker's opinion. Certainly, there are many who don't value it at all, but they aren't the people paying premiums for these cards. His grading experience and expertise is very highly regarded and respected by a lot of people in this hobby. Cards that he places Gold Diamond stickers on sell for huge premiums at auction. I know this because I've been tracking the data and I built a statistical model to measure it's impact, as I stated above. I'm not guessing here. The numbers don't lie.

Mike Baker was always a nice guy, I talked with him at length back in the day, but his name carries absolutely no weight today, and his GAI business ventures ruined his once fairly good name. I don’t mean to put the guy down, but this is just a poor marketing ploy used by folks dissatisfied by their card’s actual grade.

His name may carry no weight to you, and no weight to a plurality of the hobby, but it certainly carries quite a bit of weight to a fairly large percentage of collectors. I would much rather have a card graded by Mike Baker than I would one of these Cheetoh chomping new hires at PSA who thinks that Gretzky RC above is a 6.

Also worth pointing out is that the argument that it's stupid to send a card in to Mike Baker because anyone can just look at the card and determine it's condition for themselves can just as easily be applied to a grading services in general (PSA, SGC, etc.). If you see no value in card grading services in general, then you're welcome to that opinion. But it isn't a very popular one. If you want to see what the hobby values as a whole, just follow the money.

[Peter_Spaeth]

In light of what happened at GAI, why should we believe a reincarnated Mike Baker is honest and free from influence?

In any case to me there is a big difference between Mike Baker authenticating and grading a card and Mike Baker certifying a card is nice for the grade.

[Lorewalker]

I see no value added having a cert from MBA but I see no value in the PWCC stickers either. Clearly there are fan boys for both of these certs.

I have not seen enough MBA certed cards for sale (which should not be interpreted that he is overly discerning or strict). Market has already shown nice cards for the grade sell for premiums...sometimes huge premiums. I think it is self-serving to conclude an MBA sticker is the reason on those sales.

Their cert is simply stating that they looked at the card in the holder and they feel it is nice for the grade, which anyone can do, no offense to MBA. He is not stating this PSA 6 is a PSA 8, which as a former grader, would actually be value added.

I guess I am secure enough in my life and in my ability to judge my own cards that I would not need to pay someone to reassure me and I certainly would not pay a premium for a card because it was certed by MBA but would pay a premium for a card that happened to be certed by them if I felt it was high end. Huge distinction, imo.

[Peter_Spaeth]

I'd like to see numbers on what percentage of cards sent to him (already a self selected group) Mike Baker is stickering.

[GasHouseGang]

I don't think of the stickers as a way to "get more money out of people". I think of it as an awards ceremony for my PC. What are the best of the best cards I own as far as eye-appeal goes? I'm giving them little awards that I find aesthetically pleasing.

Then why not just buy your own stickers, have a little ceremony, and put stickers on your favorite cards. Gold stars might be a good choice. :D

Obviously, I don't get it.

[Lorewalker]

I was just poking around eBay and saw a few completed BIN sales for some 50s and 60s cards with MBA certs that went for exceptionally strong prices. Only the buyer could tell us if the price they paid reflected the MBA cert but it would appear to be the case.

[Peter_Spaeth]

I was just poking around eBay and saw a few completed BIN sales for some 50s and 60s cards with MBA certs that went for exceptionally strong prices. Only the buyer could tell us if the price they paid reflected the MBA cert but it would appear to be the case.

Were any already blessed by PWCC? Maybe there's a double premium for a double sticker?

[Lorewalker]

Were any already blessed by PWCC? Maybe there's a double premium for a double sticker?

Funny you should ask. I saw a 69 someone another in a PSA 8 with a PWCC A and an MBA Gold and at the very least the card was a diamond cut (slanted top edge with compensating slanted bottom edge) which sorta supports why the entire concept is utter BS. Never underestimate the gimmicks, smoke and mirrors most collectors will fall for.

[Peter_Spaeth]

Funny you should ask. I saw a 69 someone another in a PSA 8 with a PWCC A and an MBA Gold and at the very least the card was a diamond cut (slanted top edge with compensating slanted bottom edge) which sorta supports why the entire concept is utter BS. Never underestimate the gimmicks, smoke and mirrors most collectors will fall for.

Maybe as part of its (allegedly) ongoing work the FBI will sticker cards that are legit. Now THAT I might pay for. Or they could put a contraband sticker on bad cards Brent turned over when he was cooperating. Would pay even more.

[Lorewalker]

Maybe as part of its (allegedly) ongoing work the FBI will sticker cards that are legit. Now THAT I might pay for. Or they could put a contraband sticker on bad cards Brent turned over when he was cooperating. Would pay even more.

I would hope those would already be in the collection of the FBI like other crap they have confiscated. Check the PSA Reg and see how many sets the FBI has registered.

[bnorth]

Funny you should ask. I saw a 69 someone another in a PSA 8 with a PWCC A and an MBA Gold and at the very least the card was a diamond cut (slanted top edge with compensating slanted bottom edge) which sorta supports why the entire concept is utter BS. Never underestimate the gimmicks, smoke and mirrors most collectors will fall for.

OH MAN, If we could get a Purple sticker on that slab it would be priceless.:D:D:D

[Lorewalker]

OH MAN, If we could get a Purple sticker on that slab it would be priceless.:D:D:D

Sorry Ben but there was no room left on the slab for another sticker.

[Peter_Spaeth]

Sorry Ben but there was no room left on the slab for another sticker.

Since only the flip matters, you could put it on the part with the card, no?

[BobbyStrawberry]

Since only the flip matters, you could put it on the part with the card, no?

But who will grade the sticker?

[Lorewalker]

Since only the flip matters, you could put it on the part with the card, no?

Well to the end user the card itself is meaningless but for that the integrity of that all encompassing assessment the card undergoes while in the holder, validating or invalidating the grade, it would pose a serious issue.

[bnorth]

But who will grade the sticker?

Don't worry that is coming.:D

[doug.goodman]

Digging up this old thread because I'm about to send off some cards to MBA that I think are under-graded. I realize that it sounds ridiculous to pay someone to "grade the graders", but this does address/solve some of the problems with grading today. So many cards are now being criminally under graded by PSA; as well as SGC, although I would argue less so. I have recently graded cards in PSA 6 slabs that look like they belong in an 8 holder. Also, centering and overall eye appeal are extremely important with vintage cards. And while, yes, you can see the centering on a scan, you often can't see other minor flaws that greatly affect the eye appeal of a card in hand. How many times have we all bought that nicely centered VG-EX 4 card thinking we found a diamond in the rough only to have it show up with a surface crease/wrinkle that you couldn't see from the scans? That's just the limitations of buying and selling cards online, which is where the vast majority of cards trade hands nowadays.

I think this service addresses some of these challenges, and the market clearly agrees. The data is in on MBA Diamond stickered cards, and they sell for a significant premium, often bringing the price of a full grade bump higher for the Gold stickers. And no, it's not just the premium that a well-centered card would have otherwise gotten. It definitely adds value (I ran an ANCOVA model with the data and the stickers are statistically significant even after accounting for cards being well-centered). Sure, you could risk cracking your "under-graded" cards out and sending them back in for grading again, hoping to get a bump, but with grading fees as high as they are today, and with PSA and with how ridiculously harsh they're being with many of their grades now, it's often just not worth it. Plus, I think the Gold Diamond stickers look nice. They're subtle and classy looking. Especially on the newer SGC tuxedo slabs.

Here's an example of one of the cards I'm planning to send off to MBA. This Gretzky RC is laughably under-graded. This is not an EX-MT card. Anyone selling this card raw would describe it as NM or NM-MT and no buyers would ever question that description upon receiving it. I could crack it and send it back to PSA. Maybe they give me a 7? Perhaps an 8? Who knows. But perfectly centered, under-graded cards with great eye appeal are very difficult to find in this hobby. I say they deserve an award, and I plan on giving mine little gold diamond stickers because I like how they look. It's like the trophy shelf of my collection. And they display nicely too. Plus, now I can tell that clown who says, "comps for a PSA 5 are about $5k" to take a hike just that much more easily without having to defend why I'm asking above "comps" if I ever decide to sell.

Don't get me wrong, I fully realize why many collectors have no interest in this service. But this is why I like them and why I plan to send off many of my favorite cards to MBA. Sometimes the grading companies just get it wrong. And if Mike Baker agrees that they "got it wrong" or that it's a premium card of that grade, then I'm definitely willing to pay a significant premium as a buyer over some random eBay listing where the seller writes "LOOKS BETTER" in the title only to have it show up with a crease and 7 indents on it.

Wow. HBO or Netflix should add you to their comedy lineup.

[BobbyStrawberry]

Don't worry that is coming.:D

:D

[1880nonsports]

Yes Snowman that would make me a nay.

You state "The only thing I care about is eye appeal." OK but isn't the sticker then just confirming for you your own thoughts? You had these thoughts already when procuring the cards - believed you could ferret out an under graded card that at least theoretically was under valued.

Instead of paying for that I might prefer another route - like sharing the enjoyment with like minded people who understand the nuances. Admittedly in their daily lives people pay all the time for the "yes you're right" response.

Now you have a card with FOUR people involved in it's authenticity and appeal - you, the original grading company, the new company, and finally the person or people that eventually get to see the card or possible buy it at a price that might exceed whatever the current cost basis is for a particular grade of a graded card.
I never should have gone down this rabbit hole before having coffee....

[Snowman]

...Market has already shown nice cards for the grade sell for premiums...sometimes huge premiums. I think it is self-serving to conclude an MBA sticker is the reason on those sales.

As I explained above, I controlled for this factor in my model. I am not making an assumption. I tested that hypothesis using robust statistical techniques. I scored the centering of every card on a scale of 1 to 10 and included that data in the model. The model measures the impact of both centering AND the stickers. The results are that BOTH centering AND having a Gold Diamond sticker adds value to the card. Significant value. Silver stickers didn't add much, but the gold stickers did.

Their cert is simply stating that they looked at the card in the holder and they feel it is nice for the grade, which anyone can do, no offense to MBA. He is not stating this PSA 6 is a PSA 8, which as a former grader, would actually be value added.

Based on the data though, the market appears to interpret these stickers as "this card is under graded" regardless of whether or not that is his intention.

Yes, anyone can look at the card and determine that it looks nice on their own. No sticker needed. But the same is true for grading in general. Anyone can look at a card in a 3 holder and see that it's in VG condition without needing the slab. Same is true with NM cards. And buyers are fully capable of placing higher value on better conditioned cards without slabs. Just look at Greg Morris's raw card sales on eBay. The raw card market appears to account for condition just fine on its own. Yet, we still have grading companies and the market has made it clear that it values their opinions. More so than just the card's appearance on its own merit. A NM-MT raw card sells for a fraction of what that exact same card sells for if it's sitting inside of a PSA 8 slab. The same is true of MBA Gold Diamond stickers. The market values them. It values them more than just the card itself. You may not like it. You may think those who place value on such things are [insert your favorite insult here], but the fact remains; it still adds value. Value in excess of what nice centering/eye appeal would otherwise add to a card on its own.


I guess I am secure enough in my life and in my ability to judge my own cards that I would not need to pay someone to reassure me and I certainly would not pay a premium for a card because it was certed by MBA but would pay a premium for a card that happened to be certed by them if I felt it was high end. Huge distinction, imo.

There it is. Here come the jabs. People who like these Gold Diamond stickers are "insecure" lol.

[Snowman]

Maybe as part of its (allegedly) ongoing work the FBI will sticker cards that are legit. Now THAT I might pay for. Or they could put a contraband sticker on bad cards Brent turned over when he was cooperating. Would pay even more.

Ah yes, the "ongoing investigation". Any day now, any day now... :rolleyes:

[Peter_Spaeth]

Ah yes, the "ongoing investigation". Any day now, any day now... :rolleyes:

Revenge is a dish best served coild, they say. This one may be ice cold though. LOL. On a more hopeful note, has anyone heard Brent say it's been dropped?

[Lorewalker]

As I explained above, I controlled for this factor in my model. I am not making an assumption. I tested that hypothesis using robust statistical techniques. I scored the centering of every card on a scale of 1 to 10 and included that data in the model. The model measures the impact of both centering AND the stickers. The results are that BOTH centering AND having a Gold Diamond sticker adds value to the card. Significant value. Silver stickers didn't add much, but the gold stickers did.

I am not a data scientist so I cannot envision how a model can account for or demonstrate that a card with an MBA cert sells for more money than if it did not have the MBA cert without running parallel sales. I did however allude to the fact that I saw MBA certed cards sell for stupid money but the N was very small.

Based on the data though, the market appears to interpret these stickers as "this card is under graded" regardless of whether or not that is his intention.

Yes, anyone can look at the card and determine that it looks nice on their own. No sticker needed. But the same is true for grading in general. Anyone can look at a card in a 3 holder and see that it's in VG condition without needing the slab. Same is true with NM cards. And buyers are fully capable of placing higher value on better conditioned cards without slabs. Just look at Greg Morris's raw card sales on eBay. The raw card market appears to account for condition just fine on its own. Yet, we still have grading companies and the market has made it clear that it values their opinions. More so than just the card's appearance on its own merit. A NM-MT raw card sells for a fraction of what that exact same card sells for if it's sitting inside of a PSA 8 slab. The same is true of MBA Gold Diamond stickers. The market values them. It values them more than just the card itself.You may not like it. You may think those who place value on such things are [insert your favorite insult here], but the fact remains; it still adds value. Value in excess of what nice centering/eye appeal would otherwise add to a card on its own.

The bolded sentences are simply not accurate statements. Check Greg Morris's raw card sales for NM-MT and more times than not the card sells for more than it would in an 8. And stating the market values MBA certs is simply not true. The whole market does value them...you do and a small minority of collectors might.


There it is. Here come the jabs. People who like these Gold Diamond stickers are "insecure" lol.

You carried on in two infomercial missives about the virtues of MBA. In one you wrote I say they deserve an award, and I plan on giving mine little gold diamond stickers because I like how they look. It's like the trophy shelf of my collection. And they display nicely too. Plus, now I can tell that clown who says, "comps for a PSA 5 are about $5k" to take a hike just that much more easily without having to defend why I'm asking above "comps" if I ever decide to sell. That sounded pretty insecure to me. Was not an insult it was my observation. I know you want to be the only one who can make observations but too bad.

[Dead-Ball-Hitter]

As I explained above, I controlled for this factor in my model. I am not making an assumption. I tested that hypothesis using robust statistical techniques.
.

I don’t mean to offend, but I have to call bull on this one. I worked previously with the BLS, that’s the Bureau of Labor Statistics, who’s tag line literally is, “We have a stat for that.” A guy with a spreadsheet recording a few sales and various odd pieces of descriptive data does not a data model make. You won’t convince others that this path is meaningful. For that matter, No need to justify to others who don’t agree that these “certificates” hold any special value. You like them, that’s fine. Seriously, enjoy.

By the way, if Baker kept 22 of your cards when he failed in his attempt to reinvigorate GAI, you might feel differently about his reputation.

[Lorewalker]

I don’t mean to offend, but I have to call bull on this one. I worked previously with the BLS, that’s the Bureau of Labor Statistics, who’s tag line literally is, “We have a stat for that.” A guy with a spreadsheet recording a few sales and various odd pieces of descriptive data does not a data model make. You won’t convince others that this path is meaningful. For that matter, No need to justify to others who don’t agree that these “certificates” hold any special value. You like them, that’s fine. Seriously, enjoy.

By the way, if Baker kept 22 of your cards when he failed in his attempt to reinvigorate GAI, you might feel differently about his reputation.

Doubt. Our snowman loves PWCC. He has a thing for the bad boys of the hobby.

And thank you...I figured his "models", which he has for every single thread he posts on, are utter BS that most of us could not refute but he uses them all in an effort to disarm his adversaries.

[Snowman]

I don’t mean to offend, but I have to call bull on this one. I worked previously with the BLS, that’s the Bureau of Labor Statistics, who’s tag line literally is, “We have a stat for that.” A guy with a spreadsheet recording a few sales and various odd pieces of descriptive data does not a data model make. You won’t convince others that this path is meaningful. For that matter, No need to justify to others who don’t agree that these “certificates” hold any special value. You like them, that’s fine. Seriously, enjoy.

Nice try with the name drop. Let's not pretend like you know what you're talking about here. You don't build statistical models.

I'm a professional statistician/data scientist. Building models like this is what I do for work every day. The primary work of a statistician is to perform hypothesis tests using data and mathematics. Just because you don't understand how it works doesn't mean that it in fact does not work.

This isn't a difficult problem to understand or to solve for. If you want to know whether or not an MBA sticker has a statistically significant impact on selling prices, then all you have to do is gather enough data (a few hundred sales is more than sufficient) and build a statistical model to perform any number of hypothesis tests. You can control for other variables by including them in the model. Variables you might want to control for could be: Which grading company graded the card, the grade of the card, which card it is, centering, pop count, sticker or no sticker, date of sale, a market index to tether to the date, and numerous other things you might want to track like stains, creases, focus/registration, etc. Then you can just build a simple (or complex if you want) regression model or an ANOVA/ANCOVA model, or some machine learning models, or a multilevel mixed effects model, or whatever other model you want to build that tests hypotheses. This is pretty elementary stuff in the world of statistics. It's really not that complicated. Models will estimate the impact of each variable included in the model, and it will also output a P-value that informs you whether or not that impact is statistically significant (the more sales data you have in your model, the more power the model has in determining statistical significance).

But I'm sure you know all this stuff because you worked "with" the Bureau of Labor Statistics lol.

[JustinD]

Nice try with the name drop. Let's not pretend like you know what you're talking about here. You don't build statistical models.

I'm a professional statistician/data scientist. Building models like this is what I do for work every day. The primary work of a statistician is to perform hypothesis tests using data and mathematics. Just because you don't understand how it works doesn't mean that it in fact does not work.

This isn't a difficult problem to understand or to solve for. If you want to know whether or not an MBA sticker has a statistically significant impact on selling prices, then all you have to do is gather enough data (a few hundred sales is more than sufficient) and build a statistical model to perform any number of hypothesis tests. You can control for other variables by including them in the model. Variables you might want to control for could be: Which grading company graded the card, the grade of the card, which card it is, centering, pop count, sticker or no sticker, date of sale, a market index to tether to the date, and numerous other things you might want to track like stains, creases, focus/registration, etc. Then you can just build a simple (or complex if you want) regression model or an ANOVA/ANCOVA model, or some machine learning models, or a multilevel mixed effects model, or whatever other model you want to build that tests hypotheses. This is pretty elementary stuff in the world of statistics. It's really not that complicated. Models will estimate the impact of each variable included in the model, and it will also output a P-value that informs you whether or not that impact is statistically significant (the more sales data you have in your model, the more power the model has in determining statistical significance).

But I'm sure you know all this stuff because you worked "with" the Bureau of Labor Statistics lol.

I perfectly trust that you have more statistical skill than myself and I did like to hear the defense of the variables that most would not take into account as in my mind the addition or subtraction of these variables is why statistics are generally garbage. Is there a greater chance of a gun injury if one exists in the home… well no crap, will there be more stair falls in a multistory home versus a single level ranch home? Yes! Wow, that was a useful study.

My question lies on this, after listing a plethora of variables needing analysis you state “a few hundred sales is more than sufficient”. Seems it would not be as that group of a few hundred may contain single examples of many of those items, two, or be excluded completely as it is being culled from many areas used by new or less informed collectors such as PWCC and eBay and has no access to private sales.

The idea that this is a statistical fact requires a large leap of faith and should not cause some stone wall statements of hyperbole touting the need for this. I’ll let you enjoy the service, my personal opinion is that the cards you used as examples were well graded based on the chipping and corner wear. Yes, some other areas were exceeding but the grades are a sum of the parts. If the sticker makes you pleased and happier as a collector then please do.

I consider these services snipe hunts and it’s not changing. I do not believe in a hobby that has no real price stability and changes daily that a market of constant end value flux can be measurable without faith.

So after all that time wasted in my ramblings… do what you want for yourself but please understand the sales pitch is not going to have any true impact. You are a corvette salesman pulling over an Amish buggy to make a sale. It’s not going to be easy.

[Lorewalker]

Nice try with the name drop. Let's not pretend like you know what you're talking about here. You don't build statistical models.

I'm a professional statistician/data scientist. Building models like this is what I do for work every day. The primary work of a statistician is to perform hypothesis tests using data and mathematics. Just because you don't understand how it works doesn't mean that it in fact does not work.

This isn't a difficult problem to understand or to solve for. If you want to know whether or not an MBA sticker has a statistically significant impact on selling prices, then all you have to do is gather enough data (a few hundred sales is more than sufficient) and build a statistical model to perform any number of hypothesis tests. You can control for other variables by including them in the model. Variables you might want to control for could be: Which grading company graded the card, the grade of the card, which card it is, centering, pop count, sticker or no sticker, date of sale, a market index to tether to the date, and numerous other things you might want to track like stains, creases, focus/registration, etc. Then you can just build a simple (or complex if you want) regression model or an ANOVA/ANCOVA model, or some machine learning models, or a multilevel mixed effects model, or whatever other model you want to build that tests hypotheses. This is pretty elementary stuff in the world of statistics. It's really not that complicated. Models will estimate the impact of each variable included in the model, and it will also output a P-value that informs you whether or not that impact is statistically significant (the more sales data you have in your model, the more power the model has in determining statistical significance).

But I'm sure you know all this stuff because you worked "with" the Bureau of Labor Statistics lol.

https://i.postimg.cc/ydm430gM/MBA.jpg (https://postimages.org/)

[Peter_Spaeth]

If the sticker enhances sale value that only says to me the market is gimmick-oriented and misinformed. As a collector, MB's opinion as to eye appeal doesn't mean anything to me, even assuming he is being completely candid in his assessments and not doing favors for cronies. But it's a weird service to me. At least with PWCC you aren't paying them extra for their assessment and in theory they are reviewing their whole spectrum of cards and sticker only a small percentage. Here, sending cards and money to MB is only well spent if he stickers a high enough percentage of what you submit. What's MB's incentive to grade harshly? He'll dry up his own business.

[Lorewalker]

If the sticker enhances sale value that only says to me the market is gimmick-oriented and misinformed. As a collector, MB's opinion as to eye appeal doesn't mean anything to me, even assuming he is being completely candid in his assessments and not doing favors for cronies. But it's a weird service to me. At least with PWCC you aren't paying them extra for their assessment and in theory they are reviewing their whole spectrum of cards and sticker only a small percentage. Here, sending cards and money to MB is only well spent if he stickers a high enough percentage of what you submit. What's MB's incentive to grade harshly? He'll dry up his own business.

Stop making sense like a few of us have and just get with the ANCOVA model.

I cannot speak to Mike's reputation but have heard good and bad however our snowman states the following:

Sometimes the grading companies just get it wrong. And if Mike Baker agrees that they "got it wrong" or that it's a premium card of that grade I think we would all agree that being able to truly render an opinion on a card, especially if we are giving it a "trophy", it needs to be outside of a holder...that is why graders view cards outside of the card savers they are sent to them in. I would expect there is much that cannot be determined rendering an opinion on a card inside of a sealed holder.

I would much rather have a card graded by Mike Baker than I would one of these Cheetoh chomping new hires at PSA who thinks that Gretzky RC above is a 6. Earth to data scientist...Mike is not grading your card. Your card is already graded. :confused: Mike is rendering an "opinion" like all of us can do.

Ok so we get that you need more than just another collector telling you your card is sweet. You need something more tangible to be convinced. Why is that so important if these cards he is certing are just for your PC? Then why keep presenting arguments about increased value if the cards are not for sale?

[Peter_Spaeth]

I think we would all agree that being able to truly render an opinion on a card, especially if we are giving it a "trophy", it needs to be outside of a holder...that is why graders view cards outside of the card savers they are sent to them in. I would expect there is much that cannot be determined rendering an opinion on a card inside of a sealed holdernot for sale?

Kind of hard to detect the clues to trimming that visualizing the edges can provide (see the Net 54 link on this for example) if you can't see the edges because they're against the slat or gasket. Then again, I think a whole generation of collectors does not understand this.

[Lorewalker]

Kind of hard to detect the clues to trimming that visualizing the edges can provide (see the Net 54 link on this for example) if you can't see the edges because they're against the slat or gasket. Then again, I think a whole generation of collectors does not care about this.

I fixed it for you. Just give them their cards and the assumption is that since it is in a holder it must be good! :eek:

[Lorewalker]

Kind of hard to detect the clues to trimming that visualizing the edges can provide (see the Net 54 link on this for example) if you can't see the edges because they're against the slat or gasket. Then again, I think a whole generation of collectors does not understand this.

Go Mike Go!

https://www.blowoutforums.com/showpost.php?p=18085859&postcount=880

So much for trophies!

[Snowman]

I perfectly trust that you have more statistical skill than myself and I did like to hear the defense of the variables that most would not take into account as in my mind the addition or subtraction of these variables is why statistics are generally garbage. Is there a greater chance of a gun injury if one exists in the home… well no crap, will there be more stair falls in a multistory home versus a single level ranch home? Yes! Wow, that was a useful study.

My question lies on this, after listing a plethora of variables needing analysis you state “a few hundred sales is more than sufficient”. Seems it would not be as that group of a few hundred may contain single examples of many of those items, two, or be excluded completely as it is being culled from many areas used by new or less informed collectors such as PWCC and eBay and has no access to private sales.

The idea that this is a statistical fact requires a large leap of faith and should not cause some stone wall statements of hyperbole touting the need for this. I’ll let you enjoy the service, my personal opinion is that the cards you used as examples were well graded based on the chipping and corner wear. Yes, some other areas were exceeding but the grades are a sum of the parts. If the sticker makes you pleased and happier as a collector then please do.

I consider these services snipe hunts and it’s not changing. I do not believe in a hobby that has no real price stability and changes daily that a market of constant end value flux can be measurable without faith.

So after all that time wasted in my ramblings… do what you want for yourself but please understand the sales pitch is not going to have any true impact. You are a corvette salesman pulling over an Amish buggy to make a sale. It’s not going to be easy.

Not sure why this point isn't getting through, so I guess I'll just say it again? These are for me. I'm not sending these cards in to flip or make money from the stickers or anything like that. I just like them.

As far as your concerns about the limitations of modeling goes, you would need to have a sufficient number of examples of cards for each variable you're instead in evaluating in the model. So if you want to understand the impact that something like tape stains has on sale prices, you'll need to have a sufficient number of cards with tape stains in your data set. How many cards that number needs to be in order to be "sufficient" depends on how large of an effect it has. If that feature is something that nearly doubles the value of a card, then you might only need like 20 or 30 examples in your dataset that have this quality. However, if it's something that only adds or subtracts say 5% to the value of a card, then you'll need a lot more examples in your dataset in order to demonstrate that the effect is statistically significant. If you only have a few cards with tape stains in your dataset, then you won't be able to say anything about its impact regardless of how many total cards are in the model. Also, you should probably just exclude those few cards from your dataset if that's the case because you'd be introducing unnecessary variance to the model, and the whole point of building a model to begin with is to explain the variance in the sale prices.

[Snowman]

Go Mike Go!

https://www.blowoutforums.com/showpost.php?p=18085859&postcount=880

So much for trophies!


I didn't watch this video, but in general, I think it's funny that anyone in this hobby finds it even remotely dishonest for someone to resubmit a card for grading when it was previously rejected for being "trimmed", absent any actual evidence that it indeed has been. The irony is that it's always the exact same people who complain about PSA's incompetence that cast these judgements, as if PSA's incompetency could only possibly apply to one particular vector in a hyperspace of all possible ways a grading company could fuck up. I've had cards that I pulled myself straight from packs get rejected for "trimming" and vintage cards that I've had since childhood get rejected for trimming as well. Of course, none of them had actually been trimmed.

I have a Jackie Robinson card that I bought from a guy who pulled it from a pack in 1955 and who kept it in a shoebox ever since. He was an octogenarian gentleman who didn't know anything about grading cards, but he decided to sell his collection so that his kids wouldn't have to do it after he's gone. Someone told him he needed to have his cards graded if he wanted to get fair market value for them, so he sent them off to PSA. The Jackie card got rejected for "trimming". He didn't understand why. He knew the card had been in his possession for the entirety of its existence and that it had certainly never been trimmed. So he sent it in again. Again, it came back "trimmed". He was devastated and furious. He disclosed the full story to me before I bought the card. He even gave me both of the rejected flips. I examined the card closely and just laughed. There was zero evidence of trimming. I bought the card and submitted it for grading. It came back in a 5 holder like it should have the first time.

[Snowman]

Kind of hard to detect the clues to trimming that visualizing the edges can provide (see the Net 54 link on this for example) if you can't see the edges because they're against the slat or gasket. Then again, I think a whole generation of collectors does not understand this.

According to the lemmings over at Blowhard, the telltale sign of a "trimmed" card is that it has a gap between the card's edges and the bumpers in the slab though.

Conveniently, Lemming's Law is also commutative: "gap = trimmed" and "trimmed = gap".

[Lorewalker]

I didn't watch this video, but in general, I think it's funny that anyone in this hobby finds it even remotely dishonest for someone to resubmit a card for grading when it was previously rejected for being "trimmed", absent any actual evidence that it indeed has been. The irony is that it's always the exact same people who complain about PSA's incompetence that cast these judgements, as if PSA's incompetency could only possibly apply to one particular vector in a hyperspace of all possible ways a grading company could fuck up. I've had cards that I pulled myself straight from packs get rejected for "trimming" and vintage cards that I've had since childhood get rejected for trimming as well. Of course, none of them had actually been trimmed.

I have a Jackie Robinson card that I bought from a guy who pulled it from a pack in 1955 and who kept it in a shoebox ever since. He was an octogenarian gentleman who didn't know anything about grading cards, but he decided to sell his collection so that his kids wouldn't have to do it after he's gone. Someone told him he needed to have his cards graded if he wanted to get fair market value for them, so he sent them off to PSA. The Jackie card got rejected for "trimming". He didn't understand why. He knew the card had been in his possession for the entirety of its existence and that it had certainly never been trimmed. So he sent it in again. Again, it came back "trimmed". He was devastated and furious. He disclosed the full story to me before I bought the card. He even gave me both of the rejected flips. I examined the card closely and just laughed. There was zero evidence of trimming. I bought the card and submitted it for grading. It came back in a 5 holder like it should have the first time.

Was not going to invest the time into the video. I was referring to the screen cap of the text which indicated the card had been given a trophy by MBA. You and I will never agree on the value of an MBA trophy but my post was to illustrate that there is a lot that cannot be assessed once a card is encapsulated. I feel paying for the opinion of an MBA or worse, paying more for a card that has an MBA type of cert, is simply not wise. It is not even duplicitous. It is a far from complete evaluation.

And to your other point, we might agree for the first time which is a statistical impossibility. If you or I were to send in the same card 5 times to PSA there is a very good chance we would end up with at least 3 different results in grading. That someone resubmits a card that was rejected that they in good faith disagree with, I totally support. Nat does not agree with that decision based on his interviews but they get it wrong far too often.

[MattyC]

Long before there were even PWCC eye appeal stickers, cards with exceptional eye appeal for their grades would perform accordingly at auction. All it took were savvy, experienced collectors' eyes to be laid upon the cards, and the deserved fireworks would ensue. I know this because I was involved in many of those auctions. At that time, it's interesting to note that whenever such a card broke out of the then-sacrosanct VCP grids, some guys, I like to call them grade-queens who worship the sticker number, would lose their sh!+, wondering why on earth a 2 just sold like a 4, who were these morons that would bid up a 2 when they could get a 4, or a 6 when they could buy an 8, and so on. Others would get it. Different camps, whatever, the usual conflict and beef that breaks out among card people.

Then along came PWCC with their stickers, hanging lanterns on the sweeter-looking cards (in many cases also doctored cards from their big submitters, as we'd all later learn). Now, because so many people out there are insecure in their own opinion and eye, they start saying, "Well, if PWCC says this card is better than others in its grade or special, now, okay, I want it." So premiums for eye appeal become more commonplace, more mainstream perhaps one could say.

That's all this Baker diamond thing is, same as the PWCC stickers. The reason I spit on it is because it reeks to me of needing affirmation. If one's eye tells them a card is sweet, it's sweet. Then pay accordingly, because it's the specimen you want to enjoy looking at in your collection every day. Not because some random dude slapped some tiny sticker on the slab.

It's like if one got an A on an exam, doesn't the A suffice? Does one need a little puffy sticker from the teacher's assistant next to the A to make one feel better? Or if a guy went 4-4 at the plate, does he need some kind of extra affirmation from the coach or fans or his nana? You went 4-4. You know you did. In the same vein, we know if a card is pretty. We know if it's focused, centered, etc. Our eyes tell us that. So I don't get why we'd ever need a sticker from some random dude to tell us what our own two eyes know is a fact like the sun is in the sky. And then to PAY for that affirmation? Makes zero sense to me. Maybe if I didn't get enough love as a kid I'd go for it, I don't know. What I do know is I'll take my eye for free over paying for Baker's. And I'll bet a card I deem high end will sell for the same with no sticker as the same card with Baker's sticker.

[MattyC]

If you or I were to send in the same card 5 times to PSA there is a very good chance we would end up with at least 3 different results in grading.

Nat does not agree with that decision based on his interviews but they get it wrong far too often.

This is dead on. Back when I would submit, crack, submit, I would often get 2-grade deviations on the same card. 7s to 9s, 8s back as 6s, all over the place. That's all you need to see a few times, to see the grading game for what it is, not take the grade stickers so seriously. As that old saying goes and holds so true: Buy the card, not the holder.

[steve B]

According to the lemmings over at Blowhard, the telltale sign of a "trimmed" card is that it has a gap between the card's edges and the bumpers in the slab though.

Conveniently, Lemming's Law is also commutative: "gap = trimmed" and "trimmed = gap".

We know that's not even close to all you need to know about a card, especially older ones.

Many modern cards though are die cut and should all be the same size.
What will eventually become a problem with some sets is that they're partly die cut and knife cut on the same card. If I didn't have a stack I bought in packs I'd think most of the cards in any A+G set are trimmed.

I don't know enough about that basketball card, but if that set is die cut and is accurate at 2.5x3.5 for that card any smaller should be EOT.
We'd also have to assume the bumpers in a Beckett case are accurate at that size as well.

[Snowman]

Was not going to invest the time into the video.


For reasons I may never understand, I decided to give the video a listen while I was getting some work done...

This is a classic example of the type of content that drove me nuts over at Blowhard. Here I was thinking from the clickbait/screenshot that this hobby hero blogger had uncovered another major scandal! He buries some "card trimmer" who supposedly submitted a card he knew was trimmed to PSA 4 times, then decided to try BGS and they slabbed it for him. Then he sent it to Mike Baker to get a gold diamond sticker to try to further hide his crimes. Then he is "associated with PWCC" and tries to sell the card through them, but PWCC gets informed that this card is "TRIMMED"!, as does Beckett. Then Beckett supposedly decertifies the card because they are informed of PSA's evidence of it being trimmed [lol]. Then PWCC supposedly removes the card from their sales history because it was either shill bid or they wanted to hide their crime from the "ongoing" FBI investigation.

Of course, however, this is ALL NONSENSE. Here's what ACTUALLY happened...

This guy bought the Kobe Bryant card already in it's BGS 9.5++ holder with the Gold Diamond sticker on it. He thought it would/should cross to a PSA 10, so he tried to send it in as a crossover. PSA rejected it for "evidence of trimming". His dumbass then supposedly tries to send it in AGAIN as a crossover IN THE SAME SLAB WITH THE SAME SERIAL NUMBER to PSA because he's an idiot who doesn't realize that PSA asks for the serial number in the crossover submission form for a reason. They enter that number into their system and log the results. If someone submits that same card again with the same serial number, instead of doing the honest thing by informing the customer that they've already looked at the card and rejected it, they just take your money and the card and then send it right back to you with the same reason for rejection. That card never even makes it to a grader's desk the next time it gets sent in. This card probably hasn't even been trimmed. This "trimmed card" opinion is from ONE GUY (probably one of those near-minimum wage teenage graders) from PSA who looked at a card in a competitor's slab and said, "it's trimmed" despite it having passed both BGS's and Mike Baker's eyes. That "trimmed" tag is then forever associated with that serial number in PSA's database. The owner of the card, now surely furious as he's basically just been ripped off by PSA multiple times, decides to sell the card. He lists it with PWCC, not because of anything whatsoever to do with some trimming scandal of which this card does not apply, but because it's probably the best marketplace to sell a high-end Kobe RC on (despite the lemmings saying otherwise).

Meanwhile, the guy making this video claims that the card's cert was taken down by BGS. He even shows himself logging in to their website and entering the serial number only to have it say "No match found"! "AHA!" he declares. "See, I told you so!". Nevermind the fact that he's looking it up on the BAS lookup site, and not the one for BGS lol. I checked the cert number myself. It's still there. The card is not tainted. He also claims that PWCC purged the sale from their records. Again, not true. I looked that up too, and it's right there on their website. Sold for $120k.

This is entirely a nothing burger. There is zero evidence of anything even remotely shady about this card. It's just a Kobe RC that PSA rejected as a crossover. Happens every day. But these conspiracy theorist lemmings over at Blowhard are just all over this type of nonsense all day long. It's absolutely insane.

The real crime here is that this card is going to keep getting passed around from one person to the next and every single buyer is going to send it in to PSA expecting it to cross over to a PSA 10 because it is a BGS 9.5 "true gem plus plus" with a 10 subgrade for corners and a 10 subgrade for edges, and it has an MBA Gold Diamond sticker on it. But since one random guy at PSA thought it might be trimmed (despite the fact that the card is in a BGS slab with inner sleeve that PSA themselves admits they just can't see through well enough to accurately asses the card), it gets forever tainted in their database. But meanwhile, PSA will just keep taking everyone's money on this card over and over and over (to the tune of $5,000 a pop), handing out the same (and quite possibly bullshit) rejection reason.

Here are screenshots of the record of the sale at PWCC and proof that the cert is still valid at BGS.

[MattyC]

For reasons I may never understand, I decided to give the video a listen while I was getting some work done...

This is a classic example of the type of content that drove me nuts over at Blowhard. Here I was thinking from the clickbait/screenshot that this hobby hero blogger had uncovered another major scandal! He buries some "card trimmer" who supposedly submitted a card he knew was trimmed to PSA 4 times, then decided to try BGS and they slabbed it for him. Then he sent it to Mike Baker to get a gold diamond sticker to try to further hide his crimes. Then he is "associated with PWCC" and tries to sell the card through them, but PWCC gets informed that this card is "TRIMMED"!, as does Beckett. Then Beckett supposedly decertifies the card because they are informed of PSA's evidence of it being trimmed [lol]. Then PWCC supposedly removes the card from their sales history because it was either shill bid or they wanted to hide their crime from the "ongoing" FBI investigation.

Of course, however, this is ALL NONSENSE. Here's what ACTUALLY happened...

This guy bought the Kobe Bryant card already in it's BGS 9.5++ holder with the Gold Diamond sticker on it. He thought it would/should cross to a PSA 10, so he tried to send it in as a crossover. PSA rejected it for "evidence of trimming". His dumbass then supposedly tries to send it in AGAIN as a crossover IN THE SAME SLAB WITH THE SAME SERIAL NUMBER to PSA because he's an idiot who doesn't realize that PSA asks for the serial number in the crossover submission form for a reason. They enter that number into their system and log the results. If someone submits that same card again with the same serial number, instead of doing the honest thing by informing the customer that they've already looked at the card and rejected it, they just take your money and the card and then send it right back to you with the same reason for rejection. That card never even makes it to a grader's desk the next time it gets sent in. This card probably hasn't even been trimmed. This "trimmed card" opinion is from ONE GUY (probably one of those near-minimum wage teenage graders) from PSA who looked at a card in a competitor's slab and said, "it's trimmed" despite it having passed both BGS's and Mike Baker's eyes. That "trimmed" tag is then forever associated with that serial number in PSA's database. The owner of the card, now surely furious as he's basically just been ripped off by PSA multiple times, decides to sell the card. He lists it with PWCC, not because of anything whatsoever to do with some trimming scandal of which this card does not apply, but because it's probably the best marketplace to sell a high-end Kobe RC on (despite the lemmings saying otherwise).

Meanwhile, the guy making this video claims that the card's cert was taken down by BGS. He even shows himself logging in to their website and entering the serial number only to have it say "No match found"! "AHA!" he declares. "See, I told you so!". Nevermind the fact that he's looking it up on the BAS lookup site, and not the one for BGS lol. I checked the cert number myself. It's still there. The card is not tainted. He also claims that PWCC purged the sale from their records. Again, not true. I looked that up too, and it's right there on their website. Sold for $120k.

This is entirely a nothing burger. There is zero evidence of anything even remotely shady about this card. It's just a Kobe RC that PSA rejected as a crossover. Happens every day. But these conspiracy theorist lemmings over at Blowhard are just all over this type of nonsense all day long. It's absolutely insane.

The real crime here is that this card is going to keep getting passed around from one person to the next and every single buyer is going to send it in to PSA expecting it to cross over to a PSA 10 because it is a BGS 9.5 "true gem plus plus" with a 10 subgrade for corners and a 10 subgrade for edges, and it has an MBA Gold Diamond sticker on it. But since one random guy at PSA thought it might be trimmed (despite the fact that the card is in a BGS slab with inner sleeve that PSA themselves admits they just can't see through well enough to accurately asses the card), it gets forever tainted in their database. But meanwhile, PSA will just keep taking everyone's money on this card over and over and over, handing out the same (and quite possibly bullshit) rejection reason.

Here are screenshots of the record of the sale at PWCC and proof that the cert is still valid at BGS.


Damn. Well done. Good write up, good read. Just goes to show, we all gotta buy the card and not put stock in what the stickers say one way or the other.

[Dead-Ball-Hitter]

Wow, your many lengthy replies addressing the slightest question of the value of these ill reputed stickers shows a deep insecurity. Now I understand why you are a sticker guy!

[Peter_Spaeth]

It certainly sucks for the individual when they reject a good card, but I am guessing those mistakes are infinitesimal compared to the number of bad cards they've graded.

[Carter08]

I don’t mean to offend, but I have to call bull on this one. I worked previously with the BLS, that’s the Bureau of Labor Statistics, who’s tag line literally is, “We have a stat for that.” A guy with a spreadsheet recording a few sales and various odd pieces of descriptive data does not a data model make. You won’t convince others that this path is meaningful. For that matter, No need to justify to others who don’t agree that these “certificates” hold any special value. You like them, that’s fine. Seriously, enjoy.

By the way, if Baker kept 22 of your cards when he failed in his attempt to reinvigorate GAI, you might feel differently about his reputation.

Plus one on this. I hear robust model and I have to laugh just a little.

[Snowman]

Long before there were even PWCC eye appeal stickers, cards with exceptional eye appeal for their grades would perform accordingly at auction. All it took were savvy, experienced collectors' eyes to be laid upon the cards, and the deserved fireworks would ensue. I know this because I was involved in many of those auctions. At that time, it's interesting to note that whenever such a card broke out of the then-sacrosanct VCP grids, some guys, I like to call them grade-queens who worship the sticker number, would lose their sh!+, wondering why on earth a 2 just sold like a 4, who were these morons that would bid up a 2 when they could get a 4, or a 6 when they could buy an 8, and so on. Others would get it. Different camps, whatever, the usual conflict and beef that breaks out among card people.

Then along came PWCC with their stickers, hanging lanterns on the sweeter-looking cards (in many cases also doctored cards from their big submitters, as we'd all later learn). Now, because so many people out there are insecure in their own opinion and eye, they start saying, "Well, if PWCC says this card is better than others in its grade or special, now, okay, I want it." So premiums for eye appeal become more commonplace, more mainstream perhaps one could say.

That's all this Baker diamond thing is, same as the PWCC stickers. The reason I spit on it is because it reeks to me of needing affirmation. If one's eye tells them a card is sweet, it's sweet. Then pay accordingly, because it's the specimen you want to enjoy looking at in your collection every day. Not because some random dude slapped some tiny sticker on the slab.

It's like if one got an A on an exam, doesn't the A suffice? Does one need a little puffy sticker from the teacher's assistant next to the A to make one feel better? Or if a guy went 4-4 at the plate, does he need some kind of extra affirmation from the coach or fans or his nana? You went 4-4. You know you did. In the same vein, we know if a card is pretty. We know if it's focused, centered, etc. Our eyes tell us that. So I don't get why we'd ever need a sticker from some random dude to tell us what our own two eyes know is a fact like the sun is in the sky. And then to PAY for that affirmation? Makes zero sense to me. Maybe if I didn't get enough love as a kid I'd go for it, I don't know. What I do know is I'll take my eye for free over paying for Baker's. And I'll bet a card I deem high end will sell for the same with no sticker as the same card with Baker's sticker.

Ya, for me it's all about the eye appeal as well. I completely get the sentiment about not needing the Gold Diamond stickers too. I really do. I thought they were stupid at first too. But I happened to buy a card that had the little gold sticker on it, and for whatever reason I just liked it. I'm super OCD. As in remarkably so. When I was a kid, I wouldn't be able to sleep at night unless I got up out of bed and walked over to the light switch and flipped it on/off 3 times before going back to bed. In high school, after basketball practice, I couldn't leave the gym until I swished a 3-pointer, even if it made me late for class. If a card isn't well-centered, I can't stand looking at it. It's almost a physical reaction. It's like fingernails on a chalkboard to me. An off-centered Mint 9 or even 10 card is pure trash to me. I can't change that. But for whatever reason, I really like how these Gold Diamond stickers look, particularly on SGC slabs (the silver stickers, not so much). So my OCD has decided I want more of them.

Again, I fully realize this is crazy. Hence my posts. Though I do find it interesting that the market does appear to place a value on the stickers that the data appears to suggest is in addition to centering alone. I think people interpret them as "this card is undergraded" and likely bid with the hope of cracking it out for a grade bump in mind. And to be fair, they probably succeed at a higher rate than they would with cards that don't have the stickers.

But overall, I'm very much in agreement with you. Buy the card, not the slab. And yes, these stickers are dumb. But what can I say, I like dumb shit sometimes.

[MattyC]

Hey man, if you dig'em, you dig'em, and enjoy. The cards you showed are all great-looking and I'm sure all collectors would agree they are. My friendly advice as a fellow collector would be just save your money and the risk of shipping them and just make your own; you clearly have a good eye so your sticker would be no different than the one that costs you money is all!

[Snowman]

We know that's not even close to all you need to know about a card, especially older ones.

I'm with you there. I was being facetious.


I don't know enough about that basketball card, but if that set is die cut and is accurate at 2.5x3.5 for that card any smaller should be EOT.
We'd also have to assume the bumpers in a Beckett case are accurate at that size as well.

These Topps Chrome cards do have a bit of variance in size from the factory. Not a ton of variance like some of the older Topps cards, but definitely enough that a simple measurement is usually not sufficient for determining EOT.

The bumpers in the Beckett case are just heat pressed into the inner sleeve. They are adjustable based on the size of the card, though perhaps they usually just keep it set at a standard size for most cards? I don't know.

[Snowman]

Hey man, if you dig'em, you dig'em, and enjoy. The cards you showed are all great-looking and I'm sure all collectors would agree they are. My friendly advice as a fellow collector would be just save your money and the risk of shipping them and just make your own; you clearly have a good eye so your sticker would be no different than the one that costs you money is all!

It's not a terrible idea. It's just that if putting an MBA Gold Diamond sticker is already stupid to 85% of the hobby, then how stupid is a Snowman sticker? lol. I could put a little gold foil Snowman on there, hahaha.

FWIW, I don't like the PWCC stickers. Nor do I like the Silver Diamond MBA stickers. I only like the Gold Diamond stickers lol.

[Snowman]

Here's a fun card from this weekend's auctions that I know you'll appreciate MattyC.

I've been looking for a nice Roberto Clemente in a 4 or 5 holder to go with my 1955 Topps set. There were a few on auction this weekend that I was interested in. They usually sell for between $3500 to $4000 as a 4 (though it has been trending upward). The one I was most interested in was well-centered at Heritage. It ended on Saturday with a hammer price of $5760. I was the underbidder and I gave up at that point. I ended up settling on the one I liked 2nd most for another SGC 4 that sold on PWCC last night. It's centering isn't ideal, but it's still better than most 55 Topps cards (as most know, these are notoriously difficult to find well centered).

Here are the two cards that sold this weekend. $5760 for the centered one on Heritage, $3600 for the off-center one on PWCC. I won it for nearly half the price, but I'm still not happy about it and will eventually look to upgrade it. But it will do for now. I bet Mike Baker would slap a Gold sticker on that Heritage copy! Hahaha

[Lorewalker]

Meanwhile, the guy making this video claims that the card's cert was taken down by BGS. He even shows himself logging in to their website and entering the serial number only to have it say "No match found"! "AHA!" he declares. "See, I told you so!". Nevermind the fact that he's looking it up on the BAS lookup site, and not the one for BGS lol.



This part actually made me laugh. The rest I assumed which is why I was not about to watch the video.

[Lorewalker]

It certainly sucks for the individual when they reject a good card, but I am guessing those mistakes are infinitesimal compared to the number of bad cards they've graded.

PSA more than the other TPG seem to lean towards rejecting crossovers as a matter of routine practice. It is throwing away money people. Either break the card out and submit it naked or keep it in the plastic it is in.

[Peter_Spaeth]

PSA more than the other TPG seem to lean towards rejecting crossovers as a matter of routine practice. It is throwing away money people. Either break the card out and submit it naked or keep it in the plastic it is in.

I never understood how they could cross a high value vintage card without being able to see the edges, but whatever.

[Snowman]

PSA more than the other TPG seem to lean towards rejecting crossovers as a matter of routine practice. It is throwing away money people. Either break the card out and submit it naked or keep it in the plastic it is in.

Ya, I'm with you there. I'm done trying to cross cards over without cracking them out first. But it can definitely bite you. I have 4 Michael Jordan RCs that are all graded SGC 9. I tried crossing over the nicest one and PSA rejected it as "min grade" in the holder. So I cracked it out and sent it in again and they just rejected the card outright as having been "altered" (which is utter nonsense). So I sent it back to SGC and they gave it an 8.5 this time. So I cracked it again and sent it to BGS. My goal is to eventually pay more in grading fees than the card is worth. I'm getting close. Who knows. Maybe by the end of its journey it'll be in a CSG 10 slab with a MBA gold diamond sticker on it lol.

[Leon]

Ya, I'm with you there. I'm done trying to cross cards over without cracking them out first. But it can definitely bite you. I have 4 Michael Jordan RCs that are all graded SGC 9. I tried crossing over the nicest one and PSA rejected it as "min grade" in the holder. So I cracked it out and sent it in again and they just rejected the card outright as having been "altered" (which is utter nonsense). So I sent it back to SGC and they gave it an 8.5 this time. So I cracked it again and sent it to BGS. My goal is to eventually pay more in grading fees than the card is worth. I'm getting close. Who knows. Maybe by the end of its journey it'll be in a CSG 10 slab with a MBA gold diamond sticker on it lol.

Don't forget the purple sticker too!
.

[Snowman]

Don't forget the purple sticker too!
.

Only a desperate insecure shell of a man would place a purple sticker on his cards. The same people who put 45" tires on their lifted F250 trucks and have to climb into the cab with a ladder and a pull rope. But I only have 43" tires on mine, and I don't need a rope, so I'm afraid I'm the not target audience for the purple stickers.

[CurtisFlood]

Remora (noun): Remora spend their lives clinging to a host animal such as a whale, turtle, shark or ray. Although it was initially believed that remoras fed off particulate matter from the host's meals, this has been shown to be false; in reality, their diets are composed primarily of host feces.

Sound about right?

Adam, that is sort of a mean analogy. However, I love it!

[Lorewalker]

Ya, I'm with you there. I'm done trying to cross cards over without cracking them out first. But it can definitely bite you. I have 4 Michael Jordan RCs that are all graded SGC 9. I tried crossing over the nicest one and PSA rejected it as "min grade" in the holder. So I cracked it out and sent it in again and they just rejected the card outright as having been "altered" (which is utter nonsense). So I sent it back to SGC and they gave it an 8.5 this time. So I cracked it again and sent it to BGS. My goal is to eventually pay more in grading fees than the card is worth. I'm getting close. Who knows. Maybe by the end of its journey it'll be in a CSG 10 slab with a MBA gold diamond sticker on it lol.

Yes breaking out is risky even if the card is not altered. I have done it and done ok but there have been times I break open the holder and find something that I could not see when the card was in the holder. Again the number of altered cards in slabs should be much less than the actual number so in a perfect scenario there would be little to no risk. Not in this hobby. Grading Roulette!

[Yoda]

Despite all of the technical aids and cross-referencing employed by the TPGers, grading still remains the subjective final decision by the grader. Human nature will always play a role with the exception of Superman, Jesus and perhaps Karl Marx.
Travis, could you provide a scan of one of your PSA graded cards in your PC with a Baker good housekeeping seal of approval. I have never seen one and am curious after this cogent discussion on a polemic subject. Tks. John

[Dead-Ball-Hitter]

Oh well… He knows cards, but is 15 years away from being relevant and ruined His reputation at GAI then GA. Many collectors never got their cards back as a result of his and his partner’s actions. First hand information.

[Fuddjcal]

Digging up this old thread because I'm about to send off some cards to MBA that I think are under-graded. I realize that it sounds ridiculous to pay someone to "grade the graders", but this does address/solve some of the problems with grading today. So many cards are now being criminally under graded by PSA; as well as SGC, although I would argue less so. I have recently graded cards in PSA 6 slabs that look like they belong in an 8 holder. Also, centering and overall eye appeal are extremely important with vintage cards. And while, yes, you can see the centering on a scan, you often can't see other minor flaws that greatly affect the eye appeal of a card in hand. How many times have we all bought that nicely centered VG-EX 4 card thinking we found a diamond in the rough only to have it show up with a surface crease/wrinkle that you couldn't see from the scans? That's just the limitations of buying and selling cards online, which is where the vast majority of cards trade hands nowadays.

I think this service addresses some of these challenges, and the market clearly agrees. The data is in on MBA Diamond stickered cards, and they sell for a significant premium, often bringing the price of a full grade bump higher for the Gold stickers. And no, it's not just the premium that a well-centered card would have otherwise gotten. It definitely adds value (I ran an ANCOVA model with the data and the stickers are statistically significant even after accounting for cards being well-centered). Sure, you could risk cracking your "under-graded" cards out and sending them back in for grading again, hoping to get a bump, but with grading fees as high as they are today, and with PSA and with how ridiculously harsh they're being with many of their grades now, it's often just not worth it. Plus, I think the Gold Diamond stickers look nice. They're subtle and classy looking. Especially on the newer SGC tuxedo slabs.

Here's an example of one of the cards I'm planning to send off to MBA. This Gretzky RC is laughably under-graded. This is not an EX-MT card. Anyone selling this card raw would describe it as NM or NM-MT and no buyers would ever question that description upon receiving it. I could crack it and send it back to PSA. Maybe they give me a 7? Perhaps an 8? Who knows. But perfectly centered, under-graded cards with great eye appeal are very difficult to find in this hobby. I say they deserve an award, and I plan on giving mine little gold diamond stickers because I like how they look. It's like the trophy shelf of my collection. And they display nicely too. Plus, now I can tell that clown who says, "comps for a PSA 5 are about $5k" to take a hike just that much more easily without having to defend why I'm asking above "comps" if I ever decide to sell.

Don't get me wrong, I fully realize why many collectors have no interest in this service. But this is why I like them and why I plan to send off many of my favorite cards to MBA. Sometimes the grading companies just get it wrong. And if Mike Baker agrees that they "got it wrong" or that it's a premium card of that grade, then I'm definitely willing to pay a significant premium as a buyer over some random eBay listing where the seller writes "LOOKS BETTER" in the title only to have it show up with a crease and 7 indents on it.


RE; The PSA 6 Gretsky..."Looks Like a strong SGC 4.5-5 to me". That should be in the title, IMHO. Baker is a taint.

[bnorth]

Oh well… He knows cards, but is 15 years away from being relevant and ruined His reputation at GAI then GA. Many collectors never got their cards back as a result of his and his partner’s actions. First hand information.

I was one of the lucky ones who got their cards back. It took several emails over a few months. I got them back just before they closed down the website to non-members. My membership password quit working at that time. The cards never did get graded and they never gave me a refund, just happy I got the cards back.

[Snowman]

RE; The PSA 6 Gretsky..."Looks Like a strong SGC 4.5-5 to me". That should be in the title, IMHO. Baker is a taint.

Would you like to place a side bet on that opinion? I can submit it to SGC. If they grade it a 6 or higher, I win. Any lower and you win. I'll give you 2 to 1 odds. If it gets a 7, then you owe me 2 to 1. $1000 wager. You in? This could be fun!

[Lorewalker]

Would you like to place a side bet on that opinion? I can submit it to SGC. If they grade it a 6 or higher, I win. Any lower and you win. I'll give you 2 to 1 odds. If it gets a 7, then you owe me 2 to 1. $1000 wager. You in? This could be fun!

The 79 is a nice card but at the risk of upsetting you, I think it is graded accurately. Lower right is showing quite a bit of paper loss for even a NM. I would agree it has better than EXMT eye appeal, overall, but all 4 corners have wear.

Just curious if that was a card you submitted to PSA, if you care to answer.

[Stampsfan]

The 79 is a nice card but at the risk of upsetting you, I think it is graded accurately. Lower right is showing quite a bit of paper loss for even a NM. I would agree it has better than EXMT eye appeal, overall, but all 4 corners have wear.

Just curious if that was a card you submitted to PSA, if you care to answer.

I've been waiting for this since the first (new) post showing the Gretzky card. IMO this is the elephant in the room that nobody is talking about.

Border chipping, weak BR corner, and the Oil Drop is somewhat askew. It's a 6 in many people's views.

Not the first (or last) time the submitter believes the card is undergraded. Nice eye appeal, but technically accurate.

[Yoda]

Would you like to place a side bet on that opinion? I can submit it to SGC. If they grade it a 6 or higher, I win. Any lower and you win. I'll give you 2 to 1 odds. If it gets a 7, then you owe me 2 to 1. $1000 wager. You in? This could be fun!

Leon, I believe this should be taken off the board and made a private message between the two protagonists.

[Leon]

Leon, I believe this should be taken off the board and made a private message between the two protagonists.

Doesn't bother me as long as names are out there...
.

[Lorewalker]

Leon, I believe this should be taken off the board and made a private message between the two protagonists.

Threads where the snowman post sometimes get heated but it is all good and clean. Snowman always brings his A game and makes threads exciting.

[drcy]

I find it very hard to believe that an MBA sticker would add market value to a card

[glynparson]

Would you like to place a side bet on that opinion? I can submit it to SGC. If they grade it a 6 or higher, I win. Any lower and you win. I'll give you 2 to 1 odds. If it gets a 7, then you owe me 2 to 1. $1000 wager. You in? This could be fun!

As usual I agree with snowman. (Though not 100% of the time) Guy certainly has more patience than I do dealing with most of this board.

[Snowman]

As usual I agree with snowman. (Though not 100% of the time) Guy certainly has more patience than I do dealing with most of this board.

That's a bold statement in this town. Balls of steel, this guy has!

[Leon]

As usual I agree with snowman. (Though not 100% of the time) Guy certainly has more patience than I do dealing with most of this board.

You have 0 patience. That is the issue. You always seem angry too. Maybe you need to take a chill pill every morning LOL...

.

[steve B]

These Topps Chrome cards do have a bit of variance in size from the factory. Not a ton of variance like some of the older Topps cards, but definitely enough that a simple measurement is usually not sufficient for determining EOT.

The bumpers in the Beckett case are just heat pressed into the inner sleeve. They are adjustable based on the size of the card, though perhaps they usually just keep it set at a standard size for most cards? I don't know.

Well then the bumpers are out. Which is actually sort of nice in an "I won't have to think about that" way...:)

I don't think anywhere near enough study has been done on die cut sets. I only noticed the Old Judges because once you get a stack of them there are groups of obviously different edges.

The nice thing is that the die cut mats will always cut the same size, unless they get damaged. If there's only one mat, and that one always cuts the lower left card 1/64th short, then every lower left card will be 1/64 short.

[drcy]

I regularly disagree with Snowman, but there's nothing errant with having a resident board contrarian. Echo chambers and groupthink aren't healthy, so it's good to have counterviewpoints.

[Dead-Ball-Hitter]

I regularly disagree with Snowman, but there's nothing errant with having a resident board contrarian. Echo chambers and groupthink aren't healthy, so it's good to have counterviewpoints.

Hey David, that's well put. "In the spirit of fostering amity" (Star trek line for those who recall) I'll say that, even though I disagree with the notion that stickers have any value, I can respect Snowman's opinion. Hey Snow, keep posting my man!

[Fuddjcal]

It's not a terrible idea. It's just that if putting an MBA Gold Diamond sticker is already stupid to 85% of the hobby, then how stupid is a Snowman sticker? lol. I could put a little gold foil Snowman on there, hahaha.

FWIW, I don't like the PWCC stickers. Nor do I like the Silver Diamond MBA stickers. I only like the Gold Diamond stickers lol.

To be honest, the stickers are moronic. You're obviously an Anal Eddie and that's fine cause at least your honest with yourself.

That being said, I would much rather have a "Snowman" sticker on my card from an Anal Eddie, than that well known criminal piece Sh** like Mike Baker. The "Snowman" holds much more street cred. That's the god honest truth. Have a little faith in yourself.

Go find some slabs with PWCC stickers and purple stickers. Then, put a Mike Baker and Snowman sticker on it. Have you ever thought of that? They have to be PSA though and they have to POP so you can add all 4 stickers to the registry. That's what I would do if I were you and only collect those. 4 stickers for every bush!

[Fuddjcal]

Hey David, that's well put. "In the spirit of fostering amity" (Star trek line for those who recall) I'll say that, even though I disagree with the notion that stickers have any value, I can respect Snowman's opinion. Hey Snow, keep posting my man!

I like the Snowman too!!! and his New sticker program.

[Peter_Spaeth]

To be honest, the stickers are moronic. You're obviously an Anal Eddie and that's fine cause at least your honest with yourself.

That being said, I would much rather have a "Snowman" sticker on my card from an Anal Eddie, than that well known criminal piece Sh** like Mike Baker. The "Snowman" holds much more street cred. That's the god honest truth. Have a little faith in yourself.

Go find some slabs with PWCC stickers and purple stickers. Then, put a Mike Baker and Snowman sticker on it. Have you ever thought of that? They have to be PSA though and they have to POP so you can add all 4 stickers to the registry. That's what I would do if I were you and only collect those. 4 stickers for every bush!

The Baker sticker is not that big. You could easily fit several sized like his on a slab.

[T205 GB]

I see a lot of talk about Baker and his MBA business. Well, I can tell you first hand he has a massive presence in MSP MN and is sold by Triple Diamond Sports Cards and Gold Bar Breaks. When I flipped over one of their cards and seen Bakers name I asked if it was the same Baker from GAI. Apparently the guys didn't know the history or the background behind it. I said do your due diligence and find out. Either that or they know and play stupid to save face at a card show. I did buy a RC Auto I had been chasing for a while and the sticker that it had was absolute bullsh!t in comparison to condition. I paid full comp based on condition and removed that sticker as soon as I left the shop. The whole show is equivalent to BCCG grading where your 6's are 10's all day. Reminds me of Desert Queens:D:D Looks like a 10 till the plane lands stateside. Not going to lie, I was hoping this was not the same person that had a very conflicting past. I will say that if you are buying new unopened hobby boxes then go for it.

Seriously if you have an under graded card then have it regraded. Relying on a known scammer(s) to verify a better grade for you by affixing a sticker to a card slab promotes theft and scams rather than deter them. Plus if these guys are so good at grading then WTF have they not started a grading service of their own? Can't due it because they have no unique business model or clout in the industry.

We will add a holographic sticker to any card for $5 a card all inclusive. We can do 1000+ a day if you need and bulk subs are accepted but we won't really return your cards for months and months when we have really no reason to keep them setting there other than pure laziness. Shipping is always same day service with max insurance and at least 4 add ons that require you to be there in person at exactly 10:23 am GMT the day of shipping or days following till it is delivered. If we miss you in person the package is sent back and we recharge you continually to ship it till you give up or get fired from work for missing days. All stickers will have a unique qr code or serial # to access a blank and never updated registry. We also promise to never tell you what is seen that makes your card better or worse. Please contact me though email because we don't answer the phone due to possible liabilities. If we happen to close down due to heat and pressure from the hobby we won't be sending the cards back for liability reasons unless you pay for the service and fees. If your patient we will reopen in a few years and continue with our business under a different name. You can sub for review then.

[Yoda]

Travis, you obviously have a keen eye for the qualities necessary for a card to be added to your collection. At the end of the day, you are the property owner and can damn well do whatever you want with the card. If a Mike Baker sticker makes you feel better and more confident about certain cards in your portfolio, then why not pay for that sticker and be happy.

[T205 GB]

The market indeed values Mike Baker's opinion. Certainly, there are many who don't value it at all, but they aren't the people paying premiums for these cards. His grading experience and expertise is very highly regarded and respected by a lot of people in this hobby. Cards that he places Gold Diamond stickers on sell for huge premiums at auction. I know this because I've been tracking the data and I built a statistical model to measure it's impact, as I stated above. I'm not guessing here. The numbers don't lie.



His name may carry no weight to you, and no weight to a plurality of the hobby, but it certainly carries quite a bit of weight to a fairly large percentage of collectors. I would much rather have a card graded by Mike Baker than I would one of these Cheetoh chomping new hires at PSA who thinks that Gretzky RC above is a 6.



Should have just highlighted the whole thing but its pretty easy to tell your a ******* moron and deserve to be ripped off. What a f*%^!ng tw()t w@fffle thinking that someone with that rep carries clout in this hobby and their opinion is valued. You should honestly be kicked off this board for such a stupid ass comment and support of people like this in the hobby. Seriously BRO!!!! I vote for your removal from the NET 54 chat board. Anyone second, third, ..., that notion to be brought to Leon for approval? Or keep this clown and vote me off the island so I know where peoples integrity stands

[T205 GB]

Would you like to place a side bet on that opinion? I can submit it to SGC. If they grade it a 6 or higher, I win. Any lower and you win. I'll give you 2 to 1 odds. If it gets a 7, then you owe me 2 to 1. $1000 wager. You in? This could be fun!

God this only gets dumber and dumber as I go. Did your BFF send you chap-stick for your lips with the purchase of a GOLD DIAMOND sticker? If not I bet them suckers are raw and chapped from all the **** your sucking. BTW I will personally make an anonymous call to SGC about this bet to ensure they scrutinize the f*ck out of your card just because of the type of person you are. Got the serial number handy so if anyone takes this bet just let me know. I don't want anything out of this other than seeing Travis lose his money for supporting scammers and thief's. Birds of feather flock together. Seriously you have removed all doubts about your integrity and should be banned from the board.

[Johnny630]

I'm against silencing anyone on this board for just voicing his opinion. Freedom of Speech is Still Fundamental in America.

Who Seconds that?

[T205 GB]

I'm against silencing anyone on this board for just voicing his opinion. Freedom of Speech is Still Fundamental in America.

Who Seconds that?

Its not silencing for voicing an opinion. It removal for support of fraud in the hobby. You can go with this clown too if you support this type of behavior. Free speech:):):) That has been taken away my friend along with most of our rights. Can you stand on the senate floor or in congress and voice your concerns about the people you hired to represent us. Nope you sure can't. It could take years of paperwork to make that happen and then what you say is controlled and your not allowed to address members directly with questions about integrity and why they lied about the promises they made. Can I say racist and anti-semetic terms to everyone I meet? Sure the f*ck can't. I can be arrested and held for longer than major criminals over making remarks like that. If we were allowed free speech then my opinion should be allowed regardless if it offends or hurts someones feelings.

[Johnny630]

Its not silencing for voicing an opinion. It removal for support of fraud in the hobby. You can go with this clown too if you support this type of behavior.

Type of Behavior ? What are you taking about ?? You want him removed for having an opinion that is contrary to yours ? His opinion is his, he has a right to voice it. I might not agree but so what, removal that’s ridiculous.

[T205 GB]

Type of Behavior ? What are you taking about ?? You want him removed for having an opinion that is contrary to yours ? His opinion is his, he has a right to voice it. I might not agree but so what, removal that’s ridiculous.

Not having an opinion contrary to mine? Never said that and you know it plain as day in black and white! Great try putting words in my mouth. Read the second sentence and not what you want to make up! I SAID HE SUPPORTS FRAUD IN THE HOBBY!!!!!!!!! No place for that here!!!!!!!!!!! Seriously you should be a politician with that snake tongue. People have been banned for less.

I NEED NO MORE PROOF THAN THAT OF WHAT SNOWMAN POSTED IN SUPPORT OF CONTINUED FRAUD IN HIS OWN WORDS AND OPINIONS.