T206 Black vs Brown Lenox

[Rhotchkiss]

Here is a comparison of the rare Black Lenox vs the super-duper rare Brown Lenox. Anyone else have a black and brown combo?

Anyone know the theory on why there are browns, why they were distributed in packs, whether all blacks should conceivably have at least one brown counterpart out there, why some players seem to have a decent amount of Browns (McQuillan - like 4-5) and others have one (or none)?

What do we know about the elusive Brown Lenox?

[Sean]

I have a Merkle Black and Brown.

[MVSNYC]

Would also love to hear more theories about Brown Lenox. (Calling Ted Z).

(Ryan, we know of 3 confirmed McQuillans, right? You think there's 4 or 5?)

Here's mine...

[Rhotchkiss]

Sean, lets see pics of the Brown and Black Merkle (we know there are two of the Brown Merkle)

PSA has 3 - my 1.5, your A, and the A that sold last night (Hi Jeff, welcome to the club). SGC pop report shows 2 -- both A's. Is it possible that both of SGC's A's have been crossed to PSA, sure, and certainly 1. But maybe not. So the pop reports show 5. Also, there are 3 McQuillans. I dont know of any other player with more than 2 known examples, so I figure there could be 4+

[sb1]

I used to own a Chase Trophy Brown, very low grade, not sure if it's the same one as Jeff has.

[MVSNYC]

Ryan, did you mean you think McQuillan is 4/5, or 3? Your reply confused me a bit.

[Rhotchkiss]

The combined pop report of PSA and SGC shows 5 total. That does NOT mean there are 5 out there -- either company could have mislabeled one or someone could have crossed an SGC to a PSA, or vice versa. But the combined pop report shows 5.

I have seen 3 - yours, mine and the one last night (and yes, yours is an SGC), which means there may be at least two more A's out there, one PSA and one SGC.

[MVSNYC]

Gotcha. Clear now!

Let’s see more Brown Lenox’s in this thread!

[tedzan]

Would also love to hear more theories about Brown Lenox. (Calling Ted Z).

(Ryan, we know of 3 confirmed McQuillans, right? You think there's 4 or 5?)

Here's mine...

OK Mike, here goes my theories on the Brown LENOX cards......


The timeline of the printing of these Group B subjects with AMERICAN BEAUTY 460, LENOX, and UZIT backs was Jan - Feb 1911. This exact timeline coincides with the printing
of the T80 (Military Men) cards. Shown below, the T80 cards were printed with CAIRO MONOPOL, LENOX, OLD MILL, TOLSTOI, and UZIT backs.

To date, 25 brown LENOX cards are confirmed. If my theory proves true, I predict that 11 (or 12) more T206 cards may eventually be discovered with the brown LENOX backs.
Exactly 19 subjects of the 25 brown LENOX cards are from the 350/460 series, and 6 subjects are from the 460-only series......


T206 350/460 series....Group B (Brown LENOX candidates)
http://photos.imageevent.com/tedzan77/images/BergMann14cards13x.jpg
http://photos.imageevent.com/tedzan77/images/McQuiWiltse14cards13x.jpg


350/460 series subjects confirmed with brown LENOX backs

Bradley (bat)
Burch (fielding)
Cobb (bat off shoulder)
Conroy (bat)
Crawford (bat)
Jennings (one hand)
Jordan (bat)
Lajoie (bat)
Lake (no ball)
Leach (cap)
Leifield (bat)
Manning (pitching)
McQuillan (bat)
Overall (yellow sky)
Pfeister (throwing)
F. Smith (Chicago & Boston)
Wagner (bat on right shoulder)
Willetts
Willis (bat)

The 6 brown LENOX cards from the 460-only series are from the same group of 9 subjects that are the only confirmed PIEDMONT 460 Factory #42 cards in this series.

460-only series subjects confirmed with brown LENOX backs

Chase (trophy)
Latham
Marquard (pitching)
Merkle (throwing)
Schlei (portrait)
Wiltse (portrait-cap)

I expect these 3 subjects from the 460-only series will eventually be found with brown LENOX backs......

Schlei (batting)
Schaefer (Washington)
Seymour (portrait)



Now, for the connection between the T80 cards and the T206 Brown LENOX cards......

http://photos.imageevent.com/tedzan77/images/websize/T80ColCav2ScotchHiAdjGen25.jpg
http://photos.imageevent.com/tedzan77/images/websize/LenoxUzitCairoMonTolstoi25b.jpg


So, here is my hypothesis: The printer at American Lithographic failed to switch from the brown ink after press runs of T80 CAIRO MONOPOL backs to black ink prior to starting
a press run of T206 LENOX backs. Apparently, this mistake was caught quickly, which would explain why very few T206 brown LENOX examples exist.
Instead of QA discarding these brown LENOX cards, the sheets were factory-cut, and these brown LENOX cards were shipped along with the black LENOX cards to Factory #30.
And, inserted into LENOX cigarette packs.

Incidentally, we have documented evidence from American Lithographic's records instructing Factory #30 (NYC) to insert a T206 LENOX card and a T80 LENOX card in the same
pack of LENOX Cigarettes. How do you like that ?


TED Z

T206 Reference (http://www.net54baseball.com/showthread.php?t=237816)
.

[MVSNYC]

Hi Ted, very cool theory, and I'm sure very likely the case!

One comment- the Cairo Monopol ink doesn't look very brown; almost black actually. Is it just that scan? Is it more brown in real life?

Thanks!

[Rhotchkiss]

The brown Lenox ink is darker than brown old mill and brown Hindu (I think the same ink), I think similar to the T80 Lenox and Cairo Monopol

[Pat R]

I have been keeping track of and doing research on the Brown Lenox
for several years now. I started a couple of threads on them but no one replied in any of them here's one from 5 years ago
https://www.net54baseball.com/showthread.php?t=205650&highlight=Lenox

There are four McQillans that I know of

The one that sold last night in Heritage was previously in an SGC holder
412985
412986

this is the one Ryan has now
412981

This is the one Michael has now
412987
and this is the fourth one
412984

[MVSNYC]

Hi Patrick, really cool research and scans, thanks for posting.

[tedzan]

Hi Ted, very cool theory, and I'm sure very likely the case!

One comment- the Cairo Monopol ink doesn't look very brown; almost black actually. Is it just that scan? Is it more brown in real life?

Thanks!

Mike

https://photos.imageevent.com/tedzan77/images/websize/T80xCairoMonopolx50.jpg


I have had T80 Cairo Monopol cards with a lighter Brown appearance than the one I have in this scan.
However, the other factor to consider is the "boldness" of the lettering of the "Cairo Monopol" brand name,
which has the effect of making it look darker. Whereas the thinner lettering of......
"CIGARETTES
MILITARY
SERIES
ASSORTED SUBJECTS "......appears as a lighter brown script similar to the narrower T206 brown LENOX lettering.


TED Z

T206 Reference (http://www.net54baseball.com/showthread.php?t=237816)
.

[Jobu]

This is not my card, but it looks like it is unconfirmed. PSA doesn't call it brown, but I think it is.

[tedzan]

This is not my card, but it looks like it is unconfirmed. PSA doesn't call it brown, but I think it is.

Hi Bryan

The grader is colored-blind"....you and I are not :)

It is definitely a Brown LENOX. These LENOX backs vary in their shades of brown.

I have added Crawford (bat) to my confirmed list.

Thanks for posting this card.


350/460 series subjects confirmed with Brown LENOX backs

Bradley (bat)
Burch (fielding)
Cobb (bat off shoulder)
Conroy (bat)
Crawford (bat)
Jennings (one hand)
Jordan (bat)
Lajoie (bat)
Lake (no ball)
Leach (cap)
Leifield (bat)
Manning (pitching)
McQuillan (bat)
Overall (yellow sky)
Pfeister (throwing)
F. Smith (Chicago & Boston)
Wagner (bat on right shoulder)
Willetts
Willis (bat)


T206 350/460 series....Group B (Brown LENOX candidates)
http://photos.imageevent.com/tedzan77/images/BergMann14cards13x.jpg
http://photos.imageevent.com/tedzan77/images/McQuiWiltse14cards13x.jpg


TED Z

T206 Reference (http://www.net54baseball.com/showthread.php?t=237816)
.

[tedzan]

Reprising the Brown LENOX cards from the T206 460-only series.

460-only series subjects confirmed with Brown LENOX backs.......

https://photos.imageevent.com/tedzan77/images/ChaseLENOX50x.jpg


Chase (trophy)
Latham
Marquard (pitching)
Merkle (throwing)
Schlei (portrait)
Wiltse (portrait-cap)

According to my theory, there are 3 more subjects from the 460-only series,
which I expect will eventually be found with Brown LENOX backs......

Schlei (batting)

Schaefer (Washington)

Seymour (portrait)


TED Z

T206 Reference (http://www.net54baseball.com/showthread.php?t=237816)
.

[mrvster]

Great thread!!!

brown Old Mill are scraps , brown Lenox are factory cut!!!

would love to see an example of a brown Lenox scrap! but they might have not made it to that pile:D



yes....seems very much to be the case.....printer always had an "interim" set up before different issues in AL New York:

Bitters Lash, Oakes Tobbacco, T 68 Men of History, and i'm sure many others...


being a scrap collector, they are the "missing links" that usually correlate issues on con current printing...

brown lenox were "subtle" brown, the printer probably just snuck them through....BOM are more obvious and were probably "scrapped"

Ted....check out my multi strike thread.....has some scrap tolstoi multi strike and other puzzle pieces....

T - 68 Men/History/


looks like has the same run on the grouping of Devore, McGraw, Devore, Tannehill....etc

just LIKE THE YELLOW BROWN SCRAPS! they are correlated to Broadleaf 460 printing:eek::eek::eek:

must have been "super printed" sheets of those:):eek::eek:


ps

I never owned a brown Lenox , but might in the future:);)

[mrvster]

you have a brown Lenox Cobb right??

[tedzan]

ps Jamie.... you have a brown Lenox Cobb right??

Hey Johnny

Jamie does not have (or will ever find) a Red Cobb with a brown LENOX back.

As you know, the Red Cobb is not in Group B of the 350/460 series cards which were printed with brown LENOX backs.

The Red Cobb is in Group A of the 350/460 series cards.

Recall (some years back), you posted a scan of the 35 - T206's that are in Group A (yellow/brown scrap).

Take care, my friend


TED Z

T206 Reference (http://www.net54baseball.com/showthread.php?t=237816)
.

[Pat R]

OK Mike, here goes my theories on the Brown LENOX cards......


The timeline of the printing of these Group B subjects with AMERICAN BEAUTY 460, LENOX, and UZIT backs was Jan - Feb 1911. This exact timeline coincides with the printing
of the T80 (Military Men) cards. Shown below, the T80 cards were printed with CAIRO MONOPOL, LENOX, OLD MILL, TOLSTOI, and UZIT backs.

To date, 25 brown LENOX cards are confirmed. If my theory proves true, I predict that 11 (or 12) more T206 cards may eventually be discovered with the brown LENOX backs.
Exactly 19 subjects of the 25 brown LENOX cards are from the 350/460 series, and 6 subjects are from the 460-only series......


T206 350/460 series....Group B (Brown LENOX candidates)
http://photos.imageevent.com/tedzan77/images/BergMann14cards13x.jpg
http://photos.imageevent.com/tedzan77/images/McQuiWiltse14cards13x.jpg


350/460 series subjects confirmed with brown LENOX backs

Bradley (bat)
Burch (fielding)
Cobb (bat off shoulder)
Conroy (bat)
Crawford (bat)
Jennings (one hand)
Jordan (bat)
Lajoie (bat)
Lake (no ball)
Leach (cap)
Leifield (bat)
Manning (pitching)
McQuillan (bat)
Overall (yellow sky)
Pfeister (throwing)
F. Smith (Chicago & Boston)
Wagner (bat on right shoulder)
Willetts
Willis (bat)

The 6 brown LENOX cards from the 460-only series are from the same group of 9 subjects that are the only confirmed PIEDMONT 460 Factory #42 cards in this series.

460-only series subjects confirmed with brown LENOX backs

Chase (trophy)
Latham
Marquard (pitching)
Merkle (throwing)
Schlei (portrait)
Wiltse (portrait-cap)

I expect these 3 subjects from the 460-only series will eventually be found with brown LENOX backs......

Schlei (batting)
Schaefer (Washington)
Seymour (portrait)



Now, for the connection between the T80 cards and the T206 Brown LENOX cards......

http://photos.imageevent.com/tedzan77/images/websize/T80ColCav2ScotchHiAdjGen25.jpg
http://photos.imageevent.com/tedzan77/images/websize/LenoxUzitCairoMonTolstoi25b.jpg


So, here is my hypothesis: The printer at American Lithographic failed to switch from the brown ink after press runs of T80 CAIRO MONOPOL backs to black ink prior to starting
a press run of T206 LENOX backs. Apparently, this mistake was caught quickly, which would explain why very few T206 brown LENOX examples exist.
Instead of QA discarding these brown LENOX cards, the sheets were factory-cut, and these brown LENOX cards were shipped along with the black LENOX cards to Factory #30.
And, inserted into LENOX cigarette packs.

Incidentally, we have documented evidence from American Lithographic's records instructing Factory #30 (NYC) to insert a T206 LENOX card and a T80 LENOX card in the same
pack of LENOX Cigarettes. How do you like that ?


TED Z

T206 Reference (http://www.net54baseball.com/showthread.php?t=237816)
.


Hey Ted,

According to the Lenox ledger page the T80's and T206's were not inserted
in packs together in the Lenox brands.

Tom posted a fantastic pdf file of the journal in this thread
https://www.net54baseball.com/showthread.php?t=282997

The Lenox page says they "discontinued packing military pictures 10/14/10
and began packing baseball pictures Oct.15/10 1 to each box of 10"

[tedzan]

Hey Ted,

According to the Lenox ledger page the T80's and T206's were not inserted
in packs together in the Lenox brands.

Tom posted a fantastic pdf file of the journal in this thread
https://www.net54baseball.com/showthread.php?t=282997

The Lenox page says they "discontinued packing military pictures 10/14/10
and began packing baseball pictures Oct.15/10 1 to each box of 10"

Hey Pat

For starters, check-out this Net54 post from Mar 2009. There are more confirmations (throughout Net54) regarding T80's paired with T206's during the timeline of Jan-Feb 1911.
One of these other ATC ledgers instruct Factory #30 to pair T80's and T206's in LENOX cigarette packs. I don't have the time, currently, to search into this stuff.

You are good at researching, why don't you find them and post them if you will, so we will see which of us is correct on this matter ?


Net54 post March 2009
Posted By: <b>Jeff S.</b><p>These letters were auctioned through Mastronet back on Apr. 11th, 2002 - basically notifying the recipient that American Tobacco was discontinuing the production of Tolstoi and Uzit T206's, and beginning to insert a &quot;Military series&quot;. Interesting that the letters mention simultaneous insertion of both a baseball and military picture in each package of cigarettes (until the baseball series ran out I assume). Any idea what the final price was for these pieces? - I couldn't find anything through the Mastro back door.<br><br>PS - apologies for using an antiquated scanner...<br><br><img src="http://imgs.inkfrog.com/pix/ladypaper/T206.jpg" width="797" height="491" alt="T206.jpg">


TED Z

T206 Reference (http://www.net54baseball.com/showthread.php?t=237816)
.

[Pat R]

Hey Ted,

I think you're correct that T206's and T80's were inserted together in
some brands but according to the ledger page Lenox wasn't one of them.

What I quoted was from the Lenox page here it is

[tedzan]

Patrick

We have a problem here comparing "apples vs oranges". At first, I was puzzled by the timeline you noted (10/14/1910). Now, I know why.

Your scan shows a T79 card (white-bordered) Military Series. The T80 Military Series (gold-bordered) which I am referring to, was printed
and issued at the beginning of 1911.

And, that timeline coincides with the tail-end of the T206 production, which included AMERICAN BEAUTY 460, LENOX, and UZIT cards.

When I get a chance, I will try to find the ATC record(s) which details my contention regarding the T80 cards paired with T206 cards.


http://photos.imageevent.com/tedzan77/images/websize/T80ColCav2ScotchHiAdjGen25.jpg
http://photos.imageevent.com/tedzan77/images/websize/LenoxUzitCairoMonTolstoi25b.jpg


TED Z

T206 Reference (http://www.net54baseball.com/showthread.php?t=237816)
.

[Rhotchkiss]

Lets see some Lenox!

Frank Chance is my only other black lenox (besides Marquard).

But I do have some browns... Maybe its the scans, but the brown seems to come in different shades; I will have to pull them and look at them in hand/person when I get back to Maryland.

Ted/Pat - you guys think the ink-shade differs from back to back?

[tedzan]

Lets see some Lenox!

Frank Chance is my only other black lenox (besides Marquard).

But I do have some browns... Maybe its the scans, but the brown seems to come in different shades; I will have to pull them and look at them in hand/person when I get back to Maryland.

Ted/Pat - you guys think the ink-shade differs from back to back?

Ryan

The shade of Brown ink does somewhat vary from Brown LENOX card to card. This variance in ink color is typical in printing practice when printers have to switch to another ink color
from a prior press run to a new one. Such as my hypothesis in my previous post in this thread......


So, here is my hypothesis: The printer at American Lithographic failed to switch from the brown ink after press runs of T80 CAIRO MONOPOL backs to black ink prior to starting
a press run of T206 LENOX backs. Apparently, this mistake was caught quickly, which would explain why very few T206 brown LENOX examples exist.


TED Z

T206 Reference (http://www.net54baseball.com/showthread.php?t=237816)
.

[tedzan]

Ryan

I don't have any brown LENOX cards. And, I don' have many black LENOX cards.

My very first LENOX card is this Chance....which I acquired at the Cooperstown Show in the 1980's for a mere $15.

http://photos.imageevent.com/tedzan77/images/ChancePortraitLENOX.jpg . http://photos.imageevent.com/tedzan77/images/ChancePortraitLENOXb.jpg



http://photos.imageevent.com/tedzan77/images/websize/T206NeedhamLENOXx50.jpg . http://photos.imageevent.com/tedzan77/images/T206xLENOXx50.jpg



http://photos.imageevent.com/tedzan77/images/websize/SchaeferLENOXx25.jpg . http://photos.imageevent.com/tedzan77/images/websize/SchaeferLENOXx25b.jpg




And, here is my favorite T206 guy with a very rare LENOX card of him. I traded it recently to Chris Browne for a tough Red HINDU card.

https://photos.imageevent.com/tedzan77/images/websize/BlueChaseLENOX.jpg . https://photos.imageevent.com/tedzan77/images/websize/BlueChaseLENOXb.jpg



TED Z

T206 Reference (http://www.net54baseball.com/showthread.php?t=237816)
.

[MVSNYC]

Mike

https://photos.imageevent.com/tedzan77/images/websize/T80xCairoMonopolx50.jpg


I have had T80 Cairo Monopol cards with a lighter Brown appearance than the one I have in this scan.
However, the other factor to consider is the "boldness" of the lettering of the "Cairo Monopol" brand name,
which has the effect of making it look darker. Whereas the thinner lettering of......
"CIGARETTES
MILITARY
SERIES
ASSORTED SUBJECTS "......appears as a lighter brown script similar to the narrower T206 brown LENOX lettering.


TED Z

T206 Reference (http://www.net54baseball.com/showthread.php?t=237816)
.

Ted, I see what you mean, thanks!

Very cool thread!

[mrvster]

Yes! the yellow browns would fall under that grouping correct....

T206RESOURCE lists red cobb brown lenox as a possible, but not confirmed:confused:

[tedzan]

Ted
Yes! the yellow browns would fall under that grouping correct....

T206RESOURCE lists red cobb brown lenox as a possible, but not confirmed:confused:


Johnny, ole buddy

Next time check-out my T206 REFERENCE thread (posts #8 and 171) and you will get the true scoop.

T206resource is mis-leading T206 collectors by stating a red Cobb is possible with a brown LENOX back.

I'm certain that it does not exist, that I will offer anyone one of these crisp $100 who finds an authentic
brown LENOX red Cobb.


https://photos.imageevent.com/tedzan77/images/large/5x100sSeries1990.jpg


TED Z

T206 Reference (http://www.net54baseball.com/showthread.php?t=237816)
.

[Leon]

I have the hardest time distinguishing between black and brown. But then again I am not very brown-green color adept, according to tests I have taken. I need to stick to other backs... :)
Cool cards in the thread!

[mrvster]

WOW!!!!!!!!!!!

now that's putting your money where your mouth is!!!! :D:D:D:D

hahahaha

well, we have yet to see one....right now we have a "Yetti" :D

[mrvster]

i'm like you!

brown lenox is 10 X harder to distinguish than brown old mill:)

[Sean]

i'm like you!

brown lenox is 10 X harder to distinguish than brown old mill:)

+1

[Pat R]

There is a bigger variance in the Brown with the Lenox vs the Brown Old Mills
from card to card

413450

But it's still like night and day if you put a Brown Lenox next to a Black Lenox

413451

or even a Cairo Monopol

413452

[Marslife]

Here's half a brown back :-)

413466

413467

413468

[tedzan]

or even a Cairo Monopol

413452
^^^^^^^^^^^
^
Well, well what do you know....here we have a "black" CAIRO MONOPOL back ! This T80 image has to be the converse printing error of a brown LENOX (and, just as rare).
Or, this scan was simply photo-shopped to appear "blackish".



T80's CAIRO MONOPOL backs were printed with varying shades of BROWN ink....such as this example.....

https://photos.imageevent.com/tedzan77/images/websize/T80xCairoMonopolx50.jpg



TED Z

T206 Reference (http://www.net54baseball.com/showthread.php?t=237816)
.

[Pat R]

It's not photo-shopped Ted

https://net54baseball.com/showthread.php?t=236800

https://www.amazon.com/1909-Tobacco-Military-CAIRO-MONOPOL/dp/B00KVOZOZG

[tedzan]

It's not photo-shopped Ted

https://net54baseball.com/showthread.php?t=236800

https://www.amazon.com/1909-Tobacco-Military-CAIRO-MONOPOL/dp/B00KVOZOZG

Pat

Great, then it's back is "black". First one that I've seen. I have an assortment of about 60 cards of T80's with CAIRO MONOPOL (CM), LENOX, TOLSTOI, UZIT, and Blank-backs.
My 50-card set is near complete set.

In an inverse way, your "black" back CM card supports my theory which I noted in post #10 in this thread (i.e., the brown LENOX T206's are the result of printer's mistaken ink
application on a press run of T206 LENOX cards. And why brown ink ? Because the prior press run was CM cards. So, your CM card with the "black" is the result of vice-versa.
The more significant factor that reinforces my theory is the fact that ONLY Group B subjects of the 350/460 series have been found with the brown LENOX backs.

Printer's errors such as this have also resulted in other T206 backs having the wrong color.


TED Z

T206 Reference (http://www.net54baseball.com/showthread.php?t=237816)
.

[Pat R]

Pat

Great, then it's back is "black". First one that I've seen. I have an assortment of about 60 cards of T80's with CAIRO MONOPOL (CM), LENOX, TOLSTOI, UZIT, and Blank-backs.
My 50-card set is near complete set.

In an inverse way, your "black" back CM card supports my theory which I noted in post #10 in this thread (i.e., the brown LENOX T206's are the result of printer's mistaken ink
application on a press run of T206 LENOX cards. And why brown ink ? Because the prior press run was CM cards. So, your CM card with the "black" is the result of vice-versa.
The more significant factor that reinforces my theory is the fact that ONLY Group B subjects of the 350/460 series have been found with the brown LENOX backs.

Printer's errors such as this have also resulted in other T206 backs having the wrong color.


TED Z

T206 Reference (http://www.net54baseball.com/showthread.php?t=237816)
.

Hey Ted,
I was posting to show how the Brown Lenox stands out when compared to the Black Lenox and the Cairo Monopol it had nothing to do with your
theory. As a matter of fact your group theory mirrors what I posted 5 years ago with the exception of Ames who is to use Scot Readers phrase is a rule breaker.

I posted this thread 5 years ago

https://www.net54baseball.com/showthread.php?t=205650&highlight=Lenox

It didn't receive a response but I brought it up again in one of your threads

413518

Your response was it was worth tracking and coincidentally
a few months later you started your Brown Lenox theory
that with the exception of Ames mirrored what I posted.

[tedzan]

Hey Ted,
I was posting to show how the Brown Lenox stands out when compared to the Black Lenox and the Cairo Monopol it had nothing to do with your
theory.

As a matter of fact your group theory mirrors what I posted 5 years ago with the exception of Ames who is to use Scot Readers phrase is a rule breaker.

I posted this thread 5 years ago

https://www.net54baseball.com/showthread.php?t=205650&highlight=Lenox

It didn't receive a response but I brought it up again in one of your threads

413518

Your response was it was worth tracking and coincidentally
a few months later you started your Brown Lenox theory
that with the exception of Ames mirrored what I posted.


Pat

Do we have to "re-hash" all this stuff all over again ?

First of all, I presented my "Mutually-Exclusive" theory (Group A and Group B) regarding the 350/460 series back in 2009. And, at that time I noted that Ames (hands over head)
was in the Group B. Ames did not fit the pattern; therefore, I had serious doubts about it. I did some "detective" work and tracked down the Net54 member, who posted that the
Ames was "confirmed" with an AMERICAN BEAUTY 46O back (which was posted in Bill Brown's Super Set back in 2006). This fellow stated that his post in the Super Set regarding
Ames was a mistake.

So, I REMOVED Ames from my Group B list, and transferred him into the Group A list.

What does it take to convince you that this AMES does not exist with an AMERICAN BEAUTY 46O back or a UZIT back (as T206resource incorrectly claims) ?

We have "hashed" this over and over again in the past.....and, I'm tired of dealing with your repeated "crap" on this matter !

How's about, I offer you these FIVE CRISP $100 BILLS if you can find an AUTHENTIC Ames (hands over head ) card with an AMERICAN BEAUTY 46O back, or a UZIT back.

Furthermore, this offer goes to anyone else here on this forum.


https://photos.imageevent.com/tedzan77/images/large/5x100sSeries1990.jpg


TED Z

T206 Reference (http://www.net54baseball.com/showthread.php?t=237816)
.

[Pat R]

Pat

Do we have to "re-hash" all this stuff all over again ?

First of all, I presented my "Mutually-Exclusive" theory (Group A and Group B) regarding the 350/460 series back in 2009. And, at that time I noted that Ames (hands over head)
was in the Group B. Ames did not fit the pattern; therefore, I had serious doubts about it. I did some "detective" work and tracked down the Net54 member, who posted that the
Ames was "confirmed" with an AMERICAN BEAUTY 46O back (which was posted in Bill Brown's Super Set back in 2006). This fellow stated that his post in the Super Set regarding
Ames was a mistake.

So, I REMOVED Ames from my Group B list, and transferred him into the Group A list.

What does it take to convince you that this AMES does not exist with an AMERICAN BEAUTY 46O back or a UZIT back (as T206resource incorrectly claims) ?

We have "hashed" this over and over again in the past.....and, I'm tired of dealing with your repeated "crap" on this matter !

How's about, I offer you these FIVE CRISP $100 BILLS if you can find an AUTHENTIC Ames (hands over head ) card with an AMERICAN BEAUTY 46O back, or a UZIT back.

Furthermore, this offer goes to anyone else here on this forum.


https://photos.imageevent.com/tedzan77/images/large/5x100sSeries1990.jpg


TED Z

T206 Reference (http://www.net54baseball.com/showthread.php?t=237816)
.


Ted, The Ames AB460 and Uzit has nothing to do with what I posted but
since you posted a challenge can I use you as a reference for the $500?

413577

[tedzan]

Pat

What the hell don't you understand. ! ?

I explained all that, and how I talked with the Net54 member, who said it was a mistake when he posted Ames in the Super Set.

Your derangement syndrome against me (over these past 4 years) has blinded you to grasp what is clearly written. Go back and read what I posted, and let it sink in to your mind.

And, quit this $H**T.

Ted
.

[Pat R]

Pat

What the hell don't you understand. ! ?

I explained all that, and how I talked with the Net54 member, who said it was a mistake when he posted Ames in the Super Set.

Your derangement syndrome against me (over these past 4 years) has blinded you to grasp what is clearly written. Go back and read what I posted, and let it sink in to your mind.

And, quit this $H**T.

Ted
.

I don't know Ted what I see clearly written is you saying you have an
Ames American Beauty 460 in the 70 card set you completed.

[tedzan]

Apparently, you are having a lapse of recall. Several years ago in one of your "gotcha Ted" posts, we discussed that exact list from 2009. And, I explained to you that the Baker
and Elberfeld had partial paper loss on their backs which obscured whether they were 350 or 460 cards. Obviously, they were AB 350 cards. I assumed otherwise....my bad.
And, I told you that I did not have Ames,. It was a mistaken typo on that list.

I'd like to think that you have forgotten that conversation, and now you have gone to the trouble to play this "gotcha Ted" game.

On the other hand, if you do recall our conversation on this subject from several years ago, and you are trying to instigate it again....then, sir you have a serious problem.

[Rhotchkiss]

So much for discussions about Lenox.....

[tedzan]

Here is a comparison of the rare Black Lenox vs the super-duper rare Brown Lenox. Anyone else have a black and brown combo?

Anyone know the theory on why there are browns, why they were distributed in packs, whether all blacks should conceivably have at least one brown counterpart out there, why some players seem to have a decent amount of Browns (McQuillan - like 4-5) and others have one (or none)?

What do we know about the elusive Brown Lenox?


Ryan

I'm sorry about this....but, as Billy Joel sang "I Didn't Start This Fire".

I simply responded to your 1st post here with my theory on how brown LENOX cards could have been printed, and which T206 subjects can (or will be) found with brown LENOX backs.

And BAM ! "Mr. Negativism" had to resort to his usual B-S tactics. He's done this numerous times in the past on other Threads that I have posted on.


TED Z

T206 Reference (http://www.net54baseball.com/showthread.php?t=237816)
.

[t206fanatic]

Have very much enjoyed the discussion, will contribute the only lenox i have currently, Mr Harry Howell

[Lorewalker]

So much for discussions about Lenox.....
+1

I do not do 06s but do follow many of the threads more out of fascination about how complex the set is and the passion 06 collectors have for the issue but I have to say that I have seen Ted go bonkers on people for taking his thread OT but here he seems to be ok with hijacking this one. That is sorta disappointing.

[Rhotchkiss]

Ted, thanks for the post, and Patrick thank you for the email. I have born (online) witness to several t206 dust-ups between you two. The upside to them is the passion - in a world so polarized by politics and social issues, I love that people argue about t206 print runs!! That said, the banter does tend to hijack the threads, and I had to point that out. All good.

[tedzan]

+1

I do not do 06s but do follow many of the threads more out of fascination about how complex the set is and the passion 06 collectors have for the issue but I have to say that I have seen Ted go bonkers on people for taking his thread OT but here he seems to be ok with hijacking this one. That is sorta disappointing.


What is very "DISAPPOINTING" is your blaming me for this situation ! I did not "HI-JACK" Ryan's thread ! !
The other guy did, starting with his erroneous comments in post #22. To which I corrected, and he went berserk.

Ryan (1st post) asked some questions regarding the the brown LENOX cards. I simply responded (in post #10) with my theory on how brown LENOX cards may have been printed,
and which T206 subjects can (or will be) found with brown LENOX backs. I presented this theory several years ago, and it has withstood the test of time.

Then (post #22) things started to go off the track when Pat criticized my comment about "T206 LENOX card and a T80 LENOX card in the same pack of LENOX Cigarettes".

His criticism was absolutely unwarranted since his evidence was based on T79 cards (not T80 cards). He ignored my correction, and proceeded to go off on a tangent bashing me.


Hey Chase (Lorewalker), do review the posts in this thread and it will become obvious to you (and anyone else) that I DID NOT start this situation. Your faulting me is unwarranted.


TED Z

T206 Reference (http://www.net54baseball.com/showthread.php?t=237816)
.

[tedzan]

OK, let's get this LENOX train back on it's mainline track. Listed here (in color) are the T206 subjects that are confirmed Brown LENOX cards.
They are interleaved with subjects that are possible Brown LENOX candidates.

Thanks to Ryan for starting this thread. And, thanks to Bryan (Post #18), we have added one new confirmed Brown LENOX....Crawford (bat).
If we continue this train rolling down the tracks, perhaps we will discover another new Brown LENOX card (or even more). There are 12 more
possible subjects.

Hey guys, take a good close look at your LENOX cards. You may be surprised to find a Brown LENOX hiding in your T206 collection :)


CONFIRMED (25 subjects)......... and, additional possible Candidates that eventually may be confirmed.

Berger

Bradley (bat)
Burch (fielding)
Chase (trophy)
Cobb (bat off shoulder)
Conroy (bat)
Crawford (bat)
Jennings (one hand)

Jennings (two hands)

Lajoie (bat)
Jordan (bat)
Lake (no ball)
Latham
Leach (cap)
Leifield (bat)
Manning (pitching)
Marquard (pitching)
McQuillan (bat)
Merkle (throwing)

Mullin (bat)

Overall (yellow sky)

Pelty (vertical)

Pfeister (throwing)
Schlei (portrait)

Schlei (batting)
Schaefer (Washington)
Seymour (portrait)

F. Smith (Chicago & Boston)

Steinfeldt (bat)
Tinker (bat off shoulder)

Wagner (bat on right shoulder)

Doc White (pitching)
Wilhelm (bat)

Willetts
Willis (bat)
Wiltse (portrait-cap)

Wiltse (pitching)



TED Z

T206 Reference (http://www.net54baseball.com/showthread.php?t=237816)
.

[Maculay1979]

HA has this listed as brown. Can we confirm it is Brown and not Black?

<a href="https://imgbb.com/"><img src="https://i.ibb.co/Hgr9pDr/A71-DF2-E4-B643-46-B8-8208-5-E0953241961.jpg" alt="A71-DF2-E4-B643-46-B8-8208-5-E0953241961" border="0"></a>
<a href="https://imgbb.com/"><img src="https://i.ibb.co/0BcQLc6/43-DC7-DD1-9-DEA-4-ACE-A19-B-A9-EF9-F76-D461.jpg" alt="43-DC7-DD1-9-DEA-4-ACE-A19-B-A9-EF9-F76-D461" border="0"></a>

[Maculay1979]

This is not my card, but it looks like it is unconfirmed. PSA doesn't call it brown, but I think it is.

From the prior post it looks like this same card was relabeled as black with PSA

<a href="https://imgbb.com/"><img src="https://i.ibb.co/SJ7vtK2/E206-A907-70-C0-43-DF-927-B-D68-D46-C7-B2-AD.jpg" alt="E206-A907-70-C0-43-DF-927-B-D68-D46-C7-B2-AD" border="0"></a>

[Rhotchkiss]

HA has this listed as brown. Can we confirm it is Brown and not Black?

<a href="https://imgbb.com/"><img src="https://i.ibb.co/Hgr9pDr/A71-DF2-E4-B643-46-B8-8208-5-E0953241961.jpg" alt="A71-DF2-E4-B643-46-B8-8208-5-E0953241961" border="0"></a>
<a href="https://imgbb.com/"><img src="https://i.ibb.co/0BcQLc6/43-DC7-DD1-9-DEA-4-ACE-A19-B-A9-EF9-F76-D461.jpg" alt="43-DC7-DD1-9-DEA-4-ACE-A19-B-A9-EF9-F76-D461" border="0"></a>

I need to see it in hand, but I would bet heavy the BVG is a BLACK Lenox. The PSA one, which I bought last night, is almost certainly brown and PSA messed it up. Compare to the tinker brown Lenox I bought (I also own 7-8 other browns). PSA messes up all the time and this is one of those cases; it will eventually be reholdered properly by SGC. What surprises me is the Heritage description calling the BVG brown.

Ted, you can put the Tinker into the confirmed list

[tedzan]

Ryan

Your request regarding Tinker is done, Here's the new updated Brown LENOX checklist......

Listed here (in brown color) are the T206 subjects that have been confirmed with Brown LENOX backs. They are interleaved with subjects (in
black color) that are possible Brown LENOX candidates.

Let's continue this train rolling down the tracks, perhaps we will discover another new Brown LENOX card (or even more). There are 11 more
possible subjects.

Hey guys, take a good close look at your LENOX cards. You may be surprised to find a Brown LENOX hiding in your T206 collection :)


CONFIRMED (26 Brown LENOX subjects)......... and, additional possible Candidates that eventually may be confirmed.

Berger

Bradley (bat)
Burch (fielding)
Chase (trophy)
Cobb (bat off shoulder)
Conroy (bat)
Crawford (bat)
Jennings (one hand)

Jennings (two hands)

Lajoie (bat)
Jordan (bat)
Lake (no ball)
Latham
Leach (cap)
Leifield (bat)
Manning (pitching)
Marquard (pitching)
McQuillan (bat)
Merkle (throwing)

Mullin (bat)

Overall (yellow sky)

Pelty (vertical)

Pfeister (throwing)
Schlei (portrait)

Schlei (batting)
Schaefer (Washington)
Seymour (portrait)

F. Smith (Chicago & Boston)

Steinfeldt (bat)

Tinker (bat off shoulder)
Wagner (bat on right shoulder)

Doc White (pitching)
Wilhelm (bat)

Willetts
Willis (bat)
Wiltse (portrait-cap)

Wiltse (pitching)



TED Z

T206 Reference (http://www.net54baseball.com/showthread.php?t=237816)
.

[Pat R]

I need to see it in hand, but I would bet heavy the BVG is a BLACK Lenox. The PSA one, which I bought last night, is almost certainly brown and PSA messed it up. Compare to the tinker brown Lenox I bought (I also own 7-8 other browns). PSA messes up all the time and this is one of those cases; it will eventually be reholdered properly by SGC. What surprises me is the Heritage description calling the BVG brown.

Ted, you can put the Tinker into the confirmed list

The BVG is definitely brown.

[Rhotchkiss]

464741The BVG is definitely brown.

Respectfully, I don’t agree. I put pics of the BVG and PSA up against several blacks and browns before going after the PSA one and passing on the BVG. To me, the BVG looked much more like the black backs than the browns. I then sent comparisons to folks on this site whose t206 opinion I very much respect for second opinions, all of whom agreed the PSA was brown and the BVG likely black. I think Heritage blew the description on the BVG (hardly unheard of) and PSA blew the description of the brown it encapsulated (even less unheard of). I guess we will never truly know unless/until they are in hand abs compared to each other and other blacks and browns. But here they are back to back (pun intended). The first is the psa Crawford, the second the BVG, and the third one is my Marquard black Lenox

[Aquarian Sports Cards]

I see exactly one brown above.

[MVSNYC]

I agree with Ryan. I'm one of the "folks" he mentioned. I cannot imagine the BVG example being anything other than Black. And the PSA 1 looks as Brown as a tree trunk to me.

Great pick ups Ryan.

[Sean]

I agree with Ryan. I'm one of the "folks" he mentioned. I cannot imagine the BVG example being anything other than Black. And the PSA 1 looks as Brown as a tree trunk to me.

Great pick ups Ryan.

+1. The BVG looks like faded black, not brown IMO.

[Pat R]

The brown Lenox aren't like the brown Old Mills they vary a lot. There are
several different shades from a brown similar to the Old Mills to a dark brown that has a purplish shade.

464788464789


464790464791


The Crawford is the darker brown that's harder to tell here it is between two black Lenox from the same auction

464792

If you had it in hand and put it next to a black it would stand out more than it does in a scan.

I adjusted the saturation so it shows the difference better this is the same image as above.

464793

[Maculay1979]

That saturation definitely seems to indicate brown. Would saturation make a faded black look brown?

[Pat R]

That saturation definitely seems to indicate brown. Would saturation make a faded black look brown?

No here's the Crawford in question on the left next to a another black Lenox
that's pretty worn.

464798

[Rhotchkiss]

Not that this has much to do with the discussion at hand, but there are some serious oddities surrounding both cards. The fact that one is in a BVG flip, is suspect enough, but the fact this BVG card came from the David Hall collection, which means it by all right should have been in a psa flip, makes it much more suspect. Plus, the BVG flip does not mention brown, only heritage does. The Crawford I bought, which is clearly brown, resides in a mislabeled PSA flip that Hall could easily have had fixed. Also, Hall was putting together a master set, not hoarding same front/back combos. Did he really think the psa was black and the BVG brown (even though it does not say brown). Just seems odd he would have two browns, and the psa one is undoubtedly brown.

As an aside, I own a Yellow Chance portrait Carolina Brights in an SGC flip that Hall used to own, and I thought it very odd that it remaining in an SGC holder. But I am less suspect about SGC doing it’s job and the card is clearly a Carlin’s brights, not a questionable color variation…

[MVSNYC]

FWIW, that Chase w/ Trophy looks like a Black Lenox to me, even though it's labeled Brown. I suppose in hand is a different story.

[t213]

My Lenox