Slightly OT: Could the Braves and Indians be next?

[Rich Klein]

And I'm posting this because teams such as the Boston/Milwaukee/Atlanta Braves and Cleveland Indians may be next

https://www.cnn.com/2020/07/08/business/amazon-pulls-washington-redskins-merchandise/index.html

Now, I'm ALL in favor of the important National discussion about this but as I noted on my FB page, you can't change the almost 90 year history now can we?

And does that mean eBay may pull a similar move in the near future?

https://www.cnn.com/2020/07/06/us/redskins-indians-braves-names/index.html

[packs]

Why can't you change the name? Because it's been a while? The Washington Bullets aren't the Bullets anymore. The Devil Rays aren't the Devil Rays anymore. The Mighty Ducks aren't the Mighty Ducks. The Yankees aren't the Highlanders anymore either.

[Case12]

I have seen "Washington Warriors' floated around, going back to the spear and feather logo of the 60's....looks good to me.

Braves is different. They have worked hard with American Indians to craft the right logo and message. They still struggle with whether to stop the Tomahawk chant, and don't pass out foam tomahawks anymore. (I remember as a kid going to games and seeing Chief Knock-a-homa come out of his tent in the stands....that was so cool).

Cleveland Indians - whatever. Their football team is the Cleveland Browns- dull. (No disrespect to Cleveland).

[vintagetoppsguy]

Personally, I think the Redskins should keep their name and just change their logo to a red skin potato.

[bobbyw8469]

Personally, I think the Redskins should keep their name and just change their logo to a red skin potato.

Love it. How about Washington Senators or Nationals?

[Case12]

Note 60's logo. I think it's cool and stays with historical team. Washington Warriors'.

[olecow]

All I know is that my all time favorite uniforms in ANY sport are the Boston/Milwaukee Braves unis from the late 40's to the early 60's (gotta have the tomahawk). I wear my Mitchell and Ness Hank Aaron and Eddie Mathews jerseys proudly, and I don't mean to offend anyone. They're just beautiful uniforms.

And the Blackhawks have the best sweater in hockey.

[Case12]

Chief Knock-a-homa. (BTW, he is still alive...and agrees with Redskins name change. But thinks Braves and Indians are fine).

[Case12]

Grew up in Atlanta with this. As a kid, I loved it.

[david_l]

Until some of you experience genocide, cultural annihilation, years of reneged promises and treaties, and overt racism I just don’t think you’ll get it. Here’s hoping for a change though.

[drcy]

I think they should change the names. But that's just my opinion.

I also think they will.

[KMayUSA6060]

As an Indians fan and Northeast Ohio native, I don't understand the push for the name change. I didn't see the need to remove Chief Wahoo, either. I grew up with Chief Wahoo, and thought the color was red because the Indians colors are Red, White, and Blue. I never once associated it with skin color. I've been called a racist for supporting Chief Wahoo/the Indians, but how is it racist when I don't see skin color/race?

With that being said, I'm tired of fighting it. Change the name, I don't give a damn. If it makes someone else sleep better at night because they associate a team name and cartoon with some sort of racism/oppression, let them have that. I will still continue to wear my Indians gear and go to ball games. Of course I'd buy some new gear, too, but I'm not depriving my future kids of baseball because of a team name/logo.

The Cleveland Spiders were the first professional baseball team in Cleveland (not associated with the Cleveland Indians franchise), and that is reportedly an option. Some people want a team name associated with the Rock N Roll Hall of Fame (The Cleveland Rocks or something like that). Whatever they do, don't half ass it. Make it badass, and let's move on.

I don't give a flying hoot about the Redskins either. Quite frankly, I don't see a bunch of people traveling to the Dakotas to protest on the behalf of Native Americans. A team name and logo hardly fight for anything substantial. They think it's the way people think that they need to change but it's really the system (I personally don't believe the people in this country are as racist as the media leads us to believe). A team name and logo don't touch the system. But whatever.

Can we play ball already? We need a break from all the BS as a society.

[Natswin2019]

I saw someone mention that they should change the Redskins to the Redwolves because it's the nick name for an elite navy helicopter squadron, you can keep some so of native american thing going cause wolves are important in native culture, wolves are just cool animals, and the defense can have a cool nick name in wolf pack. They could also keep the same color scheme with the red and gold.

Also the Washington Redwolves just sounds really cool

[Huysmans]

As an Indians fan and Northeast Ohio native, I don't understand the push for the name change. I didn't see the need to remove Chief Wahoo, either. I grew up with Chief Wahoo, and thought the color was red because the Indians colors are Red, White, and Blue. I never once associated it with skin color. I've been called a racist for supporting Chief Wahoo/the Indians, but how is it racist when I don't see skin color/race?

With that being said, I'm tired of fighting it. Change the name, I don't give a damn. If it makes someone else sleep better at night because they associate a team name and cartoon with some sort of racism/oppression, let them have that. I will still continue to wear my Indians gear and go to ball games. Of course I'd buy some new gear, too, but I'm not depriving my future kids of baseball because of a team name/logo.

The Cleveland Spiders were the first professional baseball team in Cleveland (not associated with the Cleveland Indians franchise), and that is reportedly an option. Some people want a team name associated with the Rock N Roll Hall of Fame (The Cleveland Rocks or something like that). Whatever they do, don't half ass it. Make it badass, and let's move on.

I don't give a flying hoot about the Redskins either. Quite frankly, I don't see a bunch of people traveling to the Dakotas to protest on the behalf of Native Americans. A team name and logo hardly fight for anything substantial. They think it's the way people think that they need to change but it's really the system (I personally don't believe the people in this country are as racist as the media leads us to believe). A team name and logo don't touch the system. But whatever.

Can we play ball already? We need a break from all the BS as a society.

Well stated. People never seem to be able to just move on from the crap in society.
Play ball everyone and enjoy your life! There are always MUCH bigger problems...

[buymycards]

Why do we need nicknames? Isn't "Cleveland" enough? People can figure it out.

[bbcard1]

I don't think the Braves and Indians HAVE to change their name as it is a people and not a degrading term, but I think they probably will. I think Notre Dame Fighting Irish will probably also and Washington & Lee is having a horrible time figuring out what to do.

[Case12]

Washington Smurfs

[pclpads]

Welcome to the brave, new world of PC, where anybody and everybody can get their panties in a twist and take offense over anything - and everything - that possesses them. We can blame / trace all these proposed team name changes to the actions of that murderous, dumb ass, effing cop in Minneapolis. That was the so called straw that broke the camel's back. This is just an extension of that knee on the neck murder.

[Natswin2019]

Welcome to the brave, new world of PC, where anybody and everybody can get their panties in a twist and take offense over anything - and everything - that possesses them. We can blame / trace all these proposed team name changes to the actions of that murderous, dumb ass, effing cop in Minneapolis. That was the so called straw that broke the camel's back. This is just an extension of that knee on the neck murder.

They've been talking about changing the Redskins name in the DC area for probably the last 10 years at different levels of seriousness. It's not exactly a new topic of conversation for us at least.

[Aquarian Sports Cards]

Changing the Indians almost seems like a backfire of a move to me. Their name was changed from the Spiders informally at first (as often happened in the early days) to honor their best player Louis Sockalexis a Penobscot Indian and was later formally adopted by the team. I'd rather see more of an emphasis on honoring the man than forgetting what, in this case, is a positive history.

Redskins however is a derogatory term and I am all for changing it.

[CMIZ5290]

And I'm posting this because teams such as the Boston/Milwaukee/Atlanta Braves and Cleveland Indians may be next

https://www.cnn.com/2020/07/08/business/amazon-pulls-washington-redskins-merchandise/index.html

Now, I'm ALL in favor of the important National discussion about this but as I noted on my FB page, you can't change the almost 90 year history now can we?

And does that mean eBay may pull a similar move in the near future?

https://www.cnn.com/2020/07/06/us/redskins-indians-braves-names/index.html
The Atlanta Braves have made it clear they are not going to change. Now we have these idiots wanting to deface Stone Mountain! When is this bullshit going to end? Enough is enough!!

[CMIZ5290]

I saw someone mention that they should change the Redskins to the Redwolves because it's the nick name for an elite navy helicopter squadron, you can keep some so of native american thing going cause wolves are important in native culture, wolves are just cool animals, and the defense can have a cool nick name in wolf pack. They could also keep the same color scheme with the red and gold.

Also the Washington Redwolves just sounds really cool

How about the Washington Wanabes seeing how they have only won 3 playoff games since their SuperBowl in 1991? Sorry, just being sarcastic.... All of this name changing is just a bunch of garbage, period... People, get a life and move on with your freaking lives

[rats60]

Welcome to the brave, new world of PC, where anybody and everybody can get their panties in a twist and take offense over anything - and everything - that possesses them. We can blame / trace all these proposed team name changes to the actions of that murderous, dumb ass, effing cop in Minneapolis. That was the so called straw that broke the camel's back. This is just an extension of that knee on the neck murder.

How would you like to have all of your property confiscated by the government and be confined on a reservation and not allowed to leave? It has nothing to do with PC. Native Americans don’t want their names and imagery used by a group of people who has treated them poorly for 400 years. How about changing the name to the Washington Blackskins and have a white guy dressed up in black face on the sideline. Would that be ok?

[toppcat]

Spiders would be great, seems to be a possible pick so maybe....

[G1911]

Deleted for ElCabron's comfort.

[CurtisFlood]

Love it. How about Washington Senators or Nationals?

I think the Washington Corruptos would be more appropriate in a salute to the governing bodies.

[Aquarian Sports Cards]

I'm bothered by the inconsistency of the argument. If we want to be this sensitive about things, then the Vikings and Celtics need to change their names and logos too as they both feature racial stereotypes and caricatures. It's a very selective outrage mostly among people who don't seem to be watching these teams or were fans of them to begin with.

Further, that the Indians were named such in direct honor of a particular individual who was popular with the fans and his former teammates and now must cease to honor him and change their name to be PC strikes me as amusing.

If we try hard enough, we can be offended by anything, from the Cleveland Indians to statues of even famed abolitionists. I am not a fan of the broader cultural shift that one who claims offense becomes automatically right because they claimed offense, and it is expected that everyone else must share or express sympathy with their view or they are branded some kind of 'ist'.

You do realize that if a population isn't marginalized they don't care if you use them as a mascot or a nickname. It's not a double standard unless there's a double standard in how the group in question is treated in the first place. If Native Americans had no other complaints then there likely would be no issue with the nicknames. Unless you feel the Golden Girls was discriminatory I don't think there are many Norwegians in the Northern plains who feel they've been systemically victimized by society.

[Angyale]

Something to think about going back in history for a name.

Angyale

[tjb1952tjb]

I'm bothered by the inconsistency of the argument. If we want to be this sensitive about things, then the Vikings and Celtics need to change their names and logos too as they both feature racial stereotypes and caricatures. It's a very selective outrage mostly among people who don't seem to be watching these teams or were fans of them to begin with.

Further, that the Indians were named such in direct honor of a particular individual who was popular with the fans and his former teammates and now must cease to honor him and change their name to be PC strikes me as amusing.

If we try hard enough, we can be offended by anything, from the Cleveland Indians to statues of even famed abolitionists. I am not a fan of the broader cultural shift that one who claims offense becomes automatically right because they claimed offense, and it is expected that everyone else must share or express sympathy with their view or they are branded some kind of 'ist'.

+1

[G1911]

Deleted for ElCabron's comfort

[Brian Van Horn]

Why can't you change the name? Because it's been a while? The Washington Bullets aren't the Bullets anymore. The Devil Rays aren't the Devil Rays anymore. The Mighty Ducks aren't the Mighty Ducks. The Yankees aren't the Highlanders anymore either.

Also, the Alleghenies aren't the Alleghenies and the Innocents aren't the Innocents.

[arcadekrazy]

Obligatory post of a card. I’m not a t206 guy, but I am attracted to the rarity of this beauty. Alas, As with the other rare beauties I’ve been attracted to in my life, I don’t have one of these either.

[ValKehl]

The Atlanta Braves could simply go back to using the franchise's original name, the Beaneaters. :D

[Case12]

The Atlanta Braves could simply go back to using the franchise's original name, the Beaneaters. :D

And the cheering crowd would chant.......:-)

[perezfan]

The Atlanta Braves could simply go back to using the franchise's original name, the Beaneaters. :D

And instead of the tomahawk chop and chant, the fans could all just fart in appreciation of their beloved Beaneaters. A fitting tribute to this name-change trend.

[packs]

I find it endlessly ironic that people will get so bent out of shape about two teams changing their names who aren't even going by the original names of the franchises anymore. Because the original names WERE CHANGED.

[Mark17]

Until some of you experience genocide, cultural annihilation, years of reneged promises and treaties, and overt racism I just don’t think you’ll get it. Here’s hoping for a change though.

The only part of your post that is factual is the reneged promises and treaties, of which nobody alive today had any involvement.

Indian tribes were butchering and scalping each other long before Europeans arrived on the scene. If genocide was the goal, it was a miserable failure. There are far more people alive today with Indian ancestry than in 1800, with far greater life expectancy.

The only reason we know of great Indian leaders like Sitting Bull and Crazy Horse is because of the written English language, and photography. The reason we know virtually nothing about the great Indians of 500 or more years past, is that the Indians weren't able to record their history until Europeans began documenting it for them. Indian words are memorialized forever in the names of our cities, states, rivers, lakes, etc.

As we know, several Indians were in the Big Leagues going back to the turn of the last century, and generally, they were extremely popular. In fact, Cleveland's team was named after one of them. Overt racism at some point in distant history, sure. But no one alive today was involved in the Indian wars. That was other people in another time.

[packs]

Have you ever been to a reservation? You are familiar with the Trail of Tears?

[Mark17]

Have you ever been to a reservation? You are familiar with the Trail of Tears?

Yes, the Trail of Tears was a bad thing that happened 170 years ago. Nobody alive today is to blame for it and nobody alive today was forced from their homeland.

I have been to a Blackfoot reservation in Montana when I was young (to visit my uncle and his family,) I'm aware of the poverty in reservations near Grants, New Mexico, and I go to the racetrack/casino, Canterbury Park, in Shakopee MN, where My buddies and I stable our racehorse for the summer. There is a Sioux reservation there, and it might dispel your assumptions to learn this:

https://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-2187456/Shakopee-Mdewakanton-Tribe-Casino-revenue-pays-member-1million-year.html

There's little need for any member of the Shakopee Mdewakanton Tribe to work. Each adult in the 460-person American Indian nation receives more than $1million a year - for doing nothing.Aug 12, 2012

Inside the richest native American tribe in the U.S. where casino profits pay $1m a year to EVERY member

Payouts coming out of the money the Shakopee Mdewakanton Tribe makes through its highly profitable casinos

About 460 people live within the tribe

Between Mystic Lake and the Little Six Casino - tribal revenues are thought to be nearly $1.4billion

[packs]

Everyone who lives on a reservation today was forced from their homeland. I think you have a myopic view of history.

[Mark17]

Everyone who lives on a reservation today was forced from their homeland. I think you have a myopic view of history.

That is like saying everyone alive today walked out of Africa. It's silly.

[packs]

Except it's not the same thing at all because we're talking about something concrete. You said you have an understanding of reservations. So if your family was forcibly relocated there from your actual home, and you still live there, how else do you explain your presence?

[Mark17]

My presence anywhere began the day I was born.

[byrone]

"Don't look back. Something might be gaining on you."

"Satchel" Paige

[Tabe]

Changing the Indians almost seems like a backfire of a move to me. Their name was changed from the Spiders informally at first (as often happened in the early days) to honor their best player Louis Sockalexis a Penobscot Indian and was later formally adopted by the team. I'd rather see more of an emphasis on honoring the man than forgetting what, in this case, is a positive history.
The Sockalexis story has been discredited:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cleveland_Indians_name_and_logo_controversy#Origin _and_significance_of_the_name

[Tabe]

As an Indians fan and Northeast Ohio native, I don't understand the push for the name change. I didn't see the need to remove Chief Wahoo, either. I grew up with Chief Wahoo, and thought the color was red because the Indians colors are Red, White, and Blue. I never once associated it with skin color. I've been called a racist for supporting Chief Wahoo/the Indians, but how is it racist when I don't see skin color/race?

Presumably it's been explained to you why the Chief Wahoo imagery was considered racist and offensive - exaggerated caricature features (giant eyes, giant nose, etc) and red skin that are drawn directly from insulting/offensive stereotypes of Native Americans.

The fact you "don't see color/race" doesn't change really change anything. The design of the mascot and imagery was based on negative racial stereotypes.

Now, given that the mascot was based on offensive/negative stereotypes and, yes, that is undeniable, do you now understand why it needed to be removed?

[howard38]

/

[Republicaninmass]

Scotch tape
..next on the list

Using a tartan?

[Beansballcardblog]

I knew I shouldn’t read this thread, yet I did.

Dang you, Rich! We gonna have to talk next time I see you!

[Tabe]

Sockalexis was never close to being the best player on the team either.

You mean the guy who played less than half the team's games in 1897, while hitting 45 points below the team leader wasn't the team's best player? Maybe it was the 28 games of .236 hitting the next two years that sealed the deal.

[KMayUSA6060]

Presumably it's been explained to you why the Chief Wahoo imagery was considered racist and offensive - exaggerated caricature features (giant eyes, giant nose, etc) and red skin that are drawn directly from insulting/offensive stereotypes of Native Americans.

The fact you "don't see color/race" doesn't change really change anything. The design of the mascot and imagery was based on negative racial stereotypes.

Now, given that the mascot was based on offensive/negative stereotypes and, yes, that is undeniable, do you now understand why it needed to be removed?

Actually, I think it does matter that I don't see color/race. Isn't that the whole damn point of all of this? So if you choose to see it, that's on you.

So we have the Notre Dame Fighting Irish, with an aggressively-stanced caricature of an Irish Leprechaun. I'm assuming you're spearheading the movement to change that, too, on behalf of the Irish? What about the Boston Celtics? New England Patriots?

Nobody here put the Native Americans on reservations. However, everyone is asked their race/ethnicity on all sorts of documents. Everyone who applied to college was judged based on their race/ethnicity (hence their diversity quotas). I don't see a single person ever protesting outside of the reservations on behalf of the Native Americans. It's basically a bunch of non-Native Americans telling others non-Native Americans that they're racists for rooting for a team with a cartoon as a logo.

It sounds like you sleep just fine at night because a sports team logo no longer exists to offend you. Congrats. Don't tell me how to think. Let me sleep well at night, too, knowing I have identified the real problem, and changing a sports logo/team name doesn't even touch the solution.

[Aj-hman]

I believe that the braves, indians and redskins have an opportunity to succeed either way they go. I am sure there is a native american nation that would consider adopting one of these sports teams. If a sovereign native american nation adopts the team it would legitimize the sports organization and provide a benefit to both. Changing the narrative from that of caricature to one of respect could uplift the native american community and propel the sports team in a new respectful direction. Also creating new marketing opportunities. Open a dialogue with the leadership of native american community see what they have say about using their likeness and telling their story. There are so many benefits to opening a dialogue.

If keeping affiliation with native american branding is not the way forward then rebranding the team is an amazing opportunity. You get to create a whole new culture for your fans and create a deep well of marketing opportunities. With the social media allowing almost immediate feedback the fan base would practically rebrand themselves.

With adversity comes an opportunity for tremendous growth. Being positive and open minded to the inevitability of change leads to success.

Aaron

[packs]

Personally I think if these franchises wanted to honor Native Americans or their heritage they could make a pretty good show of good faith by hiring a Native American for a senior position with the franchise.

[Huysmans]

Personally I think if these franchises wanted to honor Native Americans or their heritage they could make a pretty good show of good faith by actually hiring a Native American for a senior position with the franchise.

Instead of trying to pander to an entire ethnic group, why not just hire people that are THE BEST for the job, period?? Isn't that the whole point of a modern cosmopolitan world, to ignore race and colour??

Trying to placate others by offering employment based SOLELY on skin colour is ALWAYS a losing proposition.
And giving someone a job does NOTHING to "honour" their culture or "heritage"... absolutely nothing.

This should be beyond common sense in 2020.

[samosa4u]

Isn't "Yankee" a derogatory term? Well, let's change it! Oh, and wait, what about the Vikings? That's a little bit racist too, no? Let's change that one as well! Like seriously, when are these people going to stop? Next we'll see animal rights groups going after teams.

[packs]

Instead of trying to pander to an entire ethnic group, why not just hire people that are THE BEST for the job, period?? Isn't that the whole point of a modern cosmopolitan world, to ignore race and colour??

Trying to placate others by offering employment based SOLELY on skin colour is ALWAYS a losing proposition.
And giving someone a job does NOTHING to "honour" their culture or "heritage"... absolutely nothing.

This should be beyond common sense in 2020.

I guess it would depend on the position, no? A team honoring a particular culture or tradition might benefit from having someone around who is a member of it.

[vintagetoppsguy]

Instead of trying to pander to an entire ethnic group, why not just hire people that are THE BEST for the job, period?? Isn't that the whole point of a modern cosmopolitan world, to ignore race and colour??

Trying to placate others by offering employment based SOLELY on skin colour is ALWAYS a losing proposition.
And giving someone a job does NOTHING to "honour" their culture or "heritage"... absolutely nothing.

This should be beyond common sense in 2020.

+1

[Republicaninmass]

Instead of trying to pander to an entire ethnic group, why not just hire people that are THE BEST for the job, period?? Isn't that the whole point of a modern cosmopolitan world, to ignore race and colour??

Trying to placate others by offering employment based SOLELY on skin colour is ALWAYS a losing proposition.
And giving someone a job does NOTHING to "honour" their culture or "heritage"... absolutely nothing.

This should be beyond common sense in 2020.


Shhhhh! You'll be labeled as insensitive!

[david_l]

I've been called a racist for supporting Chief Wahoo/the Indians, but how is it racist when I don't see skin color/race?

You’ve been called a racist because you are in a unique place of privilege where you have the luxury to ignore race and racism and apparently you choose to do so. You’ve been called a racist because you have an opportunity to assist in helping those who have been oppressed and otherized but you would rather ignore this opportunity. The concept and repercussions of race exist in this country even if you have the luxury of not acknowledging it. Many others don’t have that luxury. Whether you acknowledge it or not you have benefited from the racist legacy of this country. For example, do you know about redlining in Cleveland? (Don’t answer that)

I’m from Ohio and it also took me a long time to see these names for what they are, but that’s no excuse. Wahoo isn’t even arguable anymore though.

I wish I could say this nicer but your post comes off as really ignorant. Maybe try reading some history and sociology books by people of color. It’s 2020 and racism is finally getting (more) called out. I could be wrong but at least I’d be wrong on the side of compassion and empathy. I wish you and your family the best.

Written on Nez Perce land,

David Lu$ti$

[Cliff Bowman]

Isn't "Yankee" a derogatory term? Well, let's change it! Oh, and wait, what about the Vikings? That's a little bit racist too, no? Let's change that one as well! Like seriously, when are these people going to stop? Next we'll see animal rights groups going after teams.
One of our enlightened members answered that in post #27.

[G1911]

Deleted for ElCabron's comfort

[packs]

Poster deleted their comments. I will respect their edits and not quote them.

[Tabe]

Actually, I think it does matter that I don't see color/race. Isn't that the whole damn point of all of this? So if you choose to see it, that's on you.

So we have the Notre Dame Fighting Irish, with an aggressively-stanced caricature of an Irish Leprechaun. I'm assuming you're spearheading the movement to change that, too, on behalf of the Irish? What about the Boston Celtics? New England Patriots?

Nobody here put the Native Americans on reservations. However, everyone is asked their race/ethnicity on all sorts of documents. Everyone who applied to college was judged based on their race/ethnicity (hence their diversity quotas). I don't see a single person ever protesting outside of the reservations on behalf of the Native Americans. It's basically a bunch of non-Native Americans telling others non-Native Americans that they're racists for rooting for a team with a cartoon as a logo.

It sounds like you sleep just fine at night because a sports team logo no longer exists to offend you. Congrats. Don't tell me how to think. Let me sleep well at night, too, knowing I have identified the real problem, and changing a sports logo/team name doesn't even touch the solution.
You didn't directly address it - do you not see why the Chief Wahoo logo was changed?

The difference between Redskins and Celtics/Patriots/Fighting Irish and the others is, of course, one is a racial slur and the rest aren't.

I'm not crazy about "Fighting Irish" but Irish people don't seem to care and it's not a racial slur. My main beef is that it's a school with a FRENCH name but called IRISH. WTF. [/snark].

[MooseDog]

If only things actually worked that way. I've both seen an experienced non-white candidates (I'm half-non-white but can pass either way) passed over who were qualified and maybe over-qualified for open positions.

Granted I'm in an industry that is both 99.9% run by white folks and steeped in good-ol-boy nepotism but them's the facts.

Instead of trying to pander to an entire ethnic group, why not just hire people that are THE BEST for the job, period?? Isn't that the whole point of a modern cosmopolitan world, to ignore race and colour??

[Mark17]

If only things actually worked that way. I've both seen an experienced non-white candidates (I'm half-non-white but can pass either way) passed over who were qualified and maybe over-qualified for open positions.

Granted I'm in an industry that is both 99.9% run by white folks and steeped in good-ol-boy nepotism but them's the facts.

People can either play victim and be miserable or they can deal with it and be optimistic.

I have lost opportunities because of my age (they figure I'm close to retirement - they're better off investing in training in someone younger who will stay and progress up the ranks.) I don't complain.

When I was a senior in college I was easily the best catcher on our team. But our coach had a lot of younger players and was trying to build up the program, so I spent most of the season on the bench. The freshman who played instead was a big, slow kid, but with some raw potential. Again, I didn't complain.

We have laws against discrimination. When you see it, fight it. But for the most part, like a poster above says, why not just enjoy life and work around the occasional bigoted, biased, jerk. And if you start sniffling out of self-pity, imagine what it's like for people born with severe illness, or dwarfism, or mental retardation.

[Orioles1954]

You’ve been called a racist because you are in a unique place of privilege where you have the luxury to ignore race and racism and apparently you choose to do so. You’ve been called a racist because you have an opportunity to assist in helping those who have been oppressed and otherized but you would rather ignore this opportunity. The concept and repercussions of race exist in this country even if you have the luxury of not acknowledging it. Many others don’t have that luxury. Whether you acknowledge it or not you have benefited from the racist legacy of this country. For example, do you know about redlining in Cleveland? (Don’t answer that)

I’m from Ohio and it also took me a long time to see these names for what they are, but that’s no excuse. Wahoo isn’t even arguable anymore though.

I wish I could say this nicer but your post comes off as really ignorant. Maybe try reading some history and sociology books by people of color. It’s 2020 and racism is finally getting (more) called out. I could be wrong but at least I’d be wrong on the side of compassion and empathy. I wish you and your family the best.

Written on Nez Perce land,

David Lu$ti$

I agree that being born a middle class white guy has afforded me some privileges. I didn’t ask for them nor will I apologize for them as well. As a country, we have to be very careful how we address privilege as a subject. It’s only natural that if you tell someone, anyone that they have the deck stacked against them, they are victims from birth and nothing can change that fact, then what motivation is there to look at the world from any other viewpoint? Instead of bemoaning my privilege and groveling, I’m more interested in how can we actually improve the human condition of people in places like Baltimore, Chicago, etc.

[G1911]

Deleted for ElCabron's comfort

[packs]

Poster deleted comment will respect the edit and not post them.

[G1911]

Deleted for ElCabron's comfort

[packs]

Poster deleted comment will respect the edit and not post them.

[G1911]

Deleted for ElCabron's comfort

[packs]

Poster deleted comment will respect the edit and not post them.

[G1911]

Deleted for ElCabron's comfort

[Bugsy]

If we all have the same rights, then how do I have an advantage? To have an advantage, there would have to be a difference in the rights. So I ask again, can you name a single, just one, solitary right that I have due to my race that is denied others due to their race?

If blacks, for example, had the same access to opportunity, why are there only 4 total running Fortune 500 companies? What are there AmLaw firms with 0 black partners? How even how many blacks have had the chance to manage an MLB team or coach a NFL team, let alone own a franchise? For supposedly having equal access, they sure don't seem to be well represented high up on the food chain. Just because they can drink from the same drinking fountains and don't fear for their lives when they exercise their right to vote, don't fool yourself into thinking that they're on equal ground with whites.

[G1911]

Deleted again

[ElCabron]

Personally, the thing I’m most offended about is someone named “G1911” posting here without disclosing the name behind their garbage opinions. My name is Ryan Christoff. What’s yours? Then, maybe we can all discuss the issue, non-anonymously. Like grown-ups.

[Cliff Bowman]

If packs doesn't have to then G1911 certainly doesn't have to.

[ElCabron]

If packs doesn't have to then G1911 certainly doesn't have to.

Wow, some cowardly crap on this board. And you’re okay with this? They should all have to put their names behind their words. Anyone can send me a private message and I’ll give you my phone number to discuss anything further. I can’t promise you’ll appreciate my words in your ear, but I promise you’ll hear them. Man, how soft have people become???

[Cliff Bowman]

Wow, some cowardly crap on this board. And you’re okay with this? They should all have to put their names behind their words. Anyone can send me a private message and I’ll give you my phone number to discuss anything further. I can’t promise you’ll appreciate my words in your ear, but I promise you’ll hear them. Man, how soft have people become???

You are the coward for calling out one person because you disagree with him but condoning someone else doing the same exact thing because you agree with him.

[ElCabron]

You are the coward for calling out one person because you disagree with him but condoning someone else doing the same exact thing because you agree with him.

I thought I said “they should all have to put their names behind their words” but I’ll send you a message with my phone number and we can discuss who is a coward, Cliff Bowman.

[ElCabron]

That’s my real number in the message I sent, Cliff. Will you be calling?

[G1911]

As I am not criticizing any person, company, etc. I thought I was following the rules. As I understand it, one is allowed to have an opinion different from yourself. I'm not even criticizing Packs, I just disagree. As I understand the rules, you can't remain private as you are accusing me of "cowardly crap", etc., but I am allowed to have an opinion contrary to yours.

If I am breaking the rules I apologize and will delete, but then other folks are not allowed to do it either, who do not seem to be so aggressively 'called out'.

I don't see why you feel a need to dox me or argue on the phone? I tend to think of these matters as being about ideas, not about ad hominems and personal attacks (which is why I'm not making them). Perhaps I have a minority view here too.

The reason I prefer to stay private, though none of your business really, is, largely, that we are all posting about valuable collectibles here, it can be read by anyone, and it is very easy to ID members home addresses with their full names.

EDIT: There, they've been removed just for you. That you want to start an altercation over the phone with Cliff, a gentleman I don't know besides our very public chats on some Topps variations and his discovery of 66 Topps high number miscuts as a group sheet-recreation project (thank you for sharing, sir!), about what a "coward" and "garbage" I am because I have an opinion different from yours, is another excellent reason that I don't want you to have my personally identifying information to track me down. This is ridiculous.

[ElCabron]

It’s up to Leon. Normally people too cowardly to put their name behind their words aren’t allowed to post on anything that’s the least bit controversial, but maybe things have changed. No one wants to know your address or whatever else you’re afraid of. But if you’re too afraid to put your name out there because of your amazing collection that is better than all of the other people on this board who post their names, then maybe you should STFU?

[G1911]

It’s up to Leon. Normally people too cowardly to put their name behind their words aren’t allowed to post on anything that’s the least bit controversial, but maybe things have changed. No one wants to know your address or whatever else you’re afraid of. But if you’re too afraid to put your name out there because of your amazing collection that is better than all of the other people on this board who post their names, then maybe you should STFU?

I'm pretty sure insults like this are also against the rules. I expect this to be enforced with the other posters who agree with you but have committed the same sin. Your hostility, insults, anger and inability to speak in a civil manner over somebody not having your opinion is not "grown up".

[williamcohon]

I think the names need to be changed. Some of the previous posts talked about not seeing racism. Others made the point that any transgressions happened long ago. It dawns on me that that’s probably true. Many states drove all their tribes out a long time ago. Only Indian names remain as a reminder of the sad history. In such circumstances, it would be easy to feel a disconnect, and be impatient with those who want to stir things up by changing team names.

Here where I live, a little north of Seattle, in Washington State, there are numerous reservations. I see Native Americans every day. The tribes hold written agreements and treaties that our federal government has failed to honor. The grievances are not tales from long ago. They are current, and they are raw. Reducing people to a cultural stereotype, and using that stereotype as a team mascot, is demeaning.

Don’t think so? Well how would it be if the name were changed to the Washington Honkies?

As for the Indians and the Braves, yes - they’re next. I suggest the Cleveland Engines. The name hardly changes, yet offends no one.

And the Atlanta Breves also hardly changes anything, but avoids insult. If you visit Starbucks, you probably know that a Breve is a drink with half-and-half. And all you musicians know that a breve is a note that lasts eight beats.

[Cliff Bowman]

That’s my real number in the message I sent, Cliff. Will you be calling?

Oh yeah, I am going to call a stark raving mad lunatic self loathing indoctrinated L word and have you scream incoherently at me with obscenities. Ain’t gonna happen.

[Leon]

I hadn't really been interested in this thread until I read it last night. I thien locked it and then reopened it. I don't want this place to be sterile. I prefer not to get involved in anything :). The rule at the top is still the rule. But in this world everything isn't black and white. Still if you are calling someone names then your name is going to be out here. But just disagreeing..meh....

What we need, imo, is half of all social program money go to mandatory parenting classes for whomever gets any govt. handouts they didn't work for.

For the record I don't think any names of anything should be changed. And I don't think any monuments should have come down. Just one, well thought out, point of view.

,

[Aj-hman]

I hope you do not delete your posts in the future. Much like the statues of war leaders their symbolic meaning changes with time. I dont believe in sanitizing history the comments you make will stand as a testament of where we are in this moment as a nation painting a more vivid message for our country men that follow.
Kindly,
Aaron Heineman

Deleted for ElCabron's comfort

[wondo]

I cannot believe we as a society have let the vile disgusting name continued to be used in the NFL. This is 2020 and no one should be subject to such public humiliation with a major sports franchise name that offends, degrades and panders to the lowest common denominator in our society. The name should be changed to the Virginia Redskins.

[G1911]

I hope you do not delete your posts in the future. Much like the statues of war leaders their symbolic meaning changes with time. I dont believe in sanitizing history the comments you make will stand as a testament of where we are in this moment as a nation painting a more vivid message for our country men that follow.
Kindly,
Aaron Heineman

Unfortunately, the guy on the 'tolerant' side escalated things from a conversation and is now harassing other people because I disagree with their political view. This just isn't worth it.

[cannonballsun]

I think just about all the posters on this thread are missing the point. As White Americans, our opinions don't really matter on this issue. As well , the opinions don't really matter of Black Americans, or any other group besides Native Americans. Their opinion on this is what matters.
These names are applied to Native Americans. If they find it offensive, that should be enough for the rest of us. It's a matter of giving a fellow human being respect. If Native Americans want these names removed, that should be enough.
Respect your fellow human beings. Such a concept.

[Tabe]

I think the names need to be changed. Some of the previous posts talked about not seeing racism. Others made the point that any transgressions happened long ago. It dawns on me that that’s probably true. Many states drove all their tribes out a long time ago. Only Indian names remain as a reminder of the sad history. In such circumstances, it would be easy to feel a disconnect, and be impatient with those who want to stir things up by changing team names.

Here where I live, a little north of Seattle, in Washington State, there are numerous reservations. I see Native Americans every day. The tribes hold written agreements and treaties that our federal government has failed to honor. The grievances are not tales from long ago. They are current, and they are raw. Reducing people to a cultural stereotype, and using that stereotype as a team mascot, is demeaning.

Not only are the grievances from "not tales from long ago", they are current. The Supreme Court just rules *last week* that half of the state of Oklahoma is now considered reservation because the federal government failed to honor their treaties.

Last. Week.

[Tabe]

For the record, I have no problem with the removal of Confederate statues. Never understood why you would put up statues to honor traitors that lost while fighting AGAINST the United States. We don't put up statues for Mussolini or King George III...

[david_l]

For the record, I have no problem with the removal of Confederate statues. Never understood why you would put up statues to honor traitors that lost while fighting AGAINST the United States. We don't put up statues for Mussolini or King George III...

Totally agree.

The Confederate statues were put up as a show of white supremacy and to intimidate people of color. Most were put up in the first couple of decades of the 20th Century.

They were a show of intimidation. Not honor. Their message is clear as day. If anyone disagrees with me please do some research before touting your “beliefs.”

-D Lu$ti$

[Republicaninmass]

If packs doesn't have to then G1911 certainly doesn't have to.

Packs never met a post he didnt edit

[david_l]

This is a very interesting read. Much of the details I did not know.

The Atlantic. July, 2020
Title: Americans Need to Know the Hard Truth About Union Monuments in the West During the Civil War: Union soldiers in the West weren’t fighting to end slavery, but to annihilate and remove Native Americans.

https://www.theatlantic.com/ideas/archive/2020/07/how-union-promoted-white-supremacy-west/613918/

[drcy]

The rule of thumb is, within reason, to let the demographic group say what offends them. If Americans Indians say a name or mascot depicting them offends or doesn't offend them then the name or mascot offends or doesn't offend them.

It is not for others on the left or the right to decide what does or should offend them. Whites on the left and right can be equally condescending, patronizing and "unlistening" to minorities.

But that involves actually finding out (asking) what minority groups find offensive or not-offensive, and not assuming for them.

A standard argument is "Scandanavians in Minnesota don't find the Vikings name and mascott offensive." Okay, they don't find that offensive. That's great, more power to them. That sentiment, however, applies to the white Minnesotans and Vikings, not across-the-board to any and all mascots and any and all peoples. And, of course, it was more than likely that Scandinavians in Minnesota who picked and/or approved the team name.

[samosa4u]

i cannot believe we as a society have let the vile disgusting name continued to be used in the nfl. This is 2020 and no one should be subject to such public humiliation with a major sports franchise name that offends, degrades and panders to the lowest common denominator in our society. The name should be changed to the virginia redskins.

lol!!!!

[G1911]

Packs never met a post he didnt edit

Just for the record, Packs and I just disagreed and it was completely civil. Packs only edited his posts after I deleted mine because I deleted them, which I did because ElCabron flipped out and started harassing Cliff and trying to get my contact info to berate me. Packs did nothing wrong.

[Republicaninmass]

Just for the record, Packs and I just disagreed and it was completely civil. Packs only edited his posts after I deleted mine because I deleted them, which I did because ElCabron flipped out and started harassing Cliff and trying to get my contact info to berate me. Packs did nothing wrong.


Please dont give yourself much importance. He edits every post in every thread. Nobody cares why you did anything.

[Jim65]

I think just about all the posters on this thread are missing the point. As White Americans, our opinions don't really matter on this issue. As well , the opinions don't really matter of Black Americans, or any other group besides Native Americans. Their opinion on this is what matters.
These names are applied to Native Americans. If they find it offensive, that should be enough for the rest of us. It's a matter of giving a fellow human being respect. If Native Americans want these names removed, that should be enough.
Respect your fellow human beings. Such a concept.

Don't entirely disagree but how many have to find it offensive for it to be removed? 50%? 100%? Or maybe one single person?

Some Native Americans find it offensive, some don't.

[todeen]

I think the names need to be changed. Some of the previous posts talked about not seeing racism. Others made the point that any transgressions happened long ago. It dawns on me that that’s probably true. Many states drove all their tribes out a long time ago. Only Indian names remain as a reminder of the sad history. In such circumstances, it would be easy to feel a disconnect, and be impatient with those who want to stir things up by changing team names.



Here where I live, a little north of Seattle, in Washington State, there are numerous reservations. I see Native Americans every day. The tribes hold written agreements and treaties that our federal government has failed to honor. The grievances are not tales from long ago. They are current, and they are raw. Reducing people to a cultural stereotype, and using that stereotype as a team mascot, is demeaning.



+1

Lived in Spokane, WA. The local MiLB team, the Indians, work very closely with the local tribe. Jerseys sometimes include the team name written in their dialect, or salmon - an important symbol for local natives. They are a really good example of how to handle culturally sensitive topics with respect, and showing dignity to a group that has often been marginalized. https://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20200714/1d9d0f16e5aead515afc936a7d899ab4.jpg

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[Tabe]

I am a season ticketholder for the Spokane Indians. Have been a regular at games for 22 years since moving to Spokane. The team is truly the poster child for how to handle this stuff. Roughly a decade ago, the topic of possibly changing the team name came up and they reached out to the local tribe. That tribe, whose official name is the Spokane Tribe of Indians, told them not to change the name. From there a conversation ensued on how to best honor the tribe. The result, as described above, has been the incorporation of Salish writing into the team logos and wordmarks. There is a display in the concourse of tribe-related information and material. When Spokane hosted the All-Star game a few years ago, they had a tribal drumming demonstration as part of the festivities. Everything they've done has been respectful and in consultation with the tribe.

[Aj-hman]

Totally agree.

The Confederate statues were put up as a show of white supremacy and to intimidate people of color. Most were put up in the first couple of decades of the 20th Century.

They were a show of intimidation. Not honor. Their message is clear as day. If anyone disagrees with me please do some research before touting your “beliefs.”

-D Lu$ti$

I respect history. If history is sanitized we loose important messages and are likely to repeat our mistakes. The original message of these monuments is clear; however today and in the future the real message, a sad chapter of our history, will hopefully not be repeated.
Respectfully,
Aaron Heineman

[Aj-hman]

I am a season ticketholder for the Spokane Indians. Have been a regular at games for 22 years since moving to Spokane. The team is truly the poster child for how to handle this stuff. Roughly a decade ago, the topic of possibly changing the team name came up and they reached out to the local tribe. That tribe, whose official name is the Spokane Tribe of Indians, told them not to change the name. From there a conversation ensued on how to best honor the tribe. The result, as described above, has been the incorporation of Salish writing into the team logos and wordmarks. There is a display in the concourse of tribe-related information and material. When Spokane hosted the All-Star game a few years ago, they had a tribal drumming demonstration as part of the festivities. Everything they've done has been respectful and in consultation with the tribe.

I am glad there is a model that the pro teams could adopt.

Aaron

[Tabe]

I respect history. If history is sanitized we loose important messages and are likely to repeat our mistakes. The original message of these monuments is clear; however today and in the future the real message, a sad chapter of our history, will hopefully not be repeated.
Respectfully,
Aaron Heineman

If the plaques on them were along the lines of (paraphrase), "Robert E Lee, traitorous leader of the Confederacy...blah blah blah", I could be persuaded to agree with you. But that's not what they were. They were statues to honor those leaders, tributes to them. Makes no sense.

Ditto for naming *military bases* after them. WTF. Do we have a Fort Rommel somewhere I'm not aware of?

[todeen]

I am a season ticketholder for the Spokane Indians. Have been a regular at games for 22 years since moving to Spokane. The team is truly the poster child for how to handle this stuff. Roughly a decade ago, the topic of possibly changing the team name came up and they reached out to the local tribe. That tribe, whose official name is the Spokane Tribe of Indians, told them not to change the name. From there a conversation ensued on how to best honor the tribe. The result, as described above, has been the incorporation of Salish writing into the team logos and wordmarks. There is a display in the concourse of tribe-related information and material. When Spokane hosted the All-Star game a few years ago, they had a tribal drumming demonstration as part of the festivities. Everything they've done has been respectful and in consultation with the tribe.Let's not forget to give a shout out to George Brett and his brother, owners of the team.

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[earlywynnfan]

I am a season ticketholder for the Spokane Indians. Have been a regular at games for 22 years since moving to Spokane. The team is truly the poster child for how to handle this stuff. Roughly a decade ago, the topic of possibly changing the team name came up and they reached out to the local tribe. That tribe, whose official name is the Spokane Tribe of Indians, told them not to change the name. From there a conversation ensued on how to best honor the tribe. The result, as described above, has been the incorporation of Salish writing into the team logos and wordmarks. There is a display in the concourse of tribe-related information and material. When Spokane hosted the All-Star game a few years ago, they had a tribal drumming demonstration as part of the festivities. Everything they've done has been respectful and in consultation with the tribe.

Just talking to a good buddy here in Cleveland, we can't figure out why the Indians can't do this!!!!!!! We have trophy cases and rooms with plaques everywhere, why not dedicate a section to showing WHY we're the Indians, show some respect for the natives that preceded us? Work as a frickin' partnership.

[Aj-hman]

Deleted for ElCabron's comfort

If the plaques on them were along the lines of (paraphrase), "Robert E Lee, traitorous leader of the Confederacy...blah blah blah", I could be persuaded to agree with you. But that's not what they were. They were statues to honor those leaders, tributes to them. Makes no sense.

Ditto for naming *military bases* after them. WTF. Do we have a Fort Rommel somewhere I'm not aware of?

as americans we have a complicated history.
the story below outlines a march of triumph over a bridge.
i cite the story to help better illustrate that we have the power over objects and what they mean today.

https://www.npr.org/2020/06/17/879682733/online-petition-to-change-the-name-of-edmund-pettus-bridge-gains-wide-support

[todeen]

as americans we have a complicated history.
the story below outlines a march of triumph over a bridge.
i cite the story to help better illustrate that we have the power over objects and what they mean today.

https://www.npr.org/2020/06/17/879682733/online-petition-to-change-the-name-of-edmund-pettus-bridge-gains-wide-support

Good source. I saw this in this last week somewhere else. Lots of dilemmas. But I don't think sports teams' names need to be one of them. Refer back to Spokane Indian posts above.

[Aj-hman]

Good source. I saw this in this last week somewhere else. Lots of dilemmas. But I don't think sports teams' names need to be one of them. Refer back to Spokane Indian posts above.
I would refer you to this post I wrote on 7/13 prior to the excellent example of the Spokane Indians.

I believe that the braves, indians and redskins have an opportunity to succeed either way they go. I am sure there is a native american nation that would consider adopting one of these sports teams. If a sovereign native american nation adopts the team it would legitimize the sports organization and provide a benefit to both. Changing the narrative from that of caricature to one of respect could uplift the native american community and propel the sports team in a new respectful direction. Also creating new marketing opportunities. Open a dialogue with the leadership of native american community see what they have say about using their likeness and telling their story. There are so many benefits to opening a dialogue.

If keeping affiliation with native american branding is not the way forward then rebranding the team is an amazing opportunity. You get to create a whole new culture for your fans and create a deep well of marketing opportunities. With the social media allowing almost immediate feedback the fan base would practically rebrand themselves.

With adversity comes an opportunity for tremendous growth. Being positive and open minded to the inevitability of change leads to success.

Aaron

[cannonballsun]

I have never got the idea of people saying - if we remove statues, we're erasing history. History stays the same, just a statue has been moved.
I have always loved to read about history. There are many great books that have been written about history.
If you're getting your history by looking at a statue, and that's it , I would say you don't know much about history.

[todeen]

I would refer you to this post I wrote on 7/13 prior to the excellent example of the Spokane Indians.Ah, somehow I missed that one. I concur.

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[Bugsy]

I have never got the idea of people saying - if we remove statues, we're erasing history. History stays the same, just a statue has been moved.
I have always loved to read about history. There are many great books that have been written about history.
If you're getting your history by looking at a statue, and that's it , I would say you don't know much about history.

Particularly the Confederate monuments. We're not talking about monuments in a cemetery or on a battlefield. These were erected in public places, like courthouses, decades after the war AND during the rise of Jim Crow. They were a tool of intimidation.

[tschock]

I have never got the idea of people saying - if we remove statues, we're erasing history. History stays the same, just a statue has been moved.
I have always loved to read about history. There are many great books that have been written about history.
If you're getting your history by looking at a statue, and that's it , I would say you don't know much about history.

I think "a statue has been moved" is quite a polite way to refer to the destruction of public (and private) property by a mob of people. Should they be moved or removed? Perhaps. But I'm hoping your not condoning that the ends justifies the means in how some of these have been 'moved'.

As to the original OT question. I'm not sure I buy the Braves name change. This gets back to the question of who takes offensive and how many need to be offended to be classified as 'offensive'. Sometime in the 1987-1994 time frame (as I remember where I was living at the time), this was brought up with regard to the Braves (among others). There were a number of Native Americans that were fine with the team name of the Braves as it was a symbol of strength, courage, and nobility. The Redskins and Indians would be a different matter.

[Jason19th]

It is not true to say that no one alive was victim to the two century attempt to destroy Native land and identity. Well into the 1960’s and 1970’s young native children were taken from their families to be sent to Indian schools or to be placed with white families. This was done to strip these children of their heritage.

It was not until 1978 the the Indian Child Welfare Act was passed to address this issue

This in Not ancient history

[cannonballsun]

I think "a statue has been moved" is quite a polite way to refer to the destruction of public (and private) property by a mob of people. Should they be moved or removed? Perhaps. But I'm hoping your not condoning that the ends justifies the means in how some of these have been 'moved'.

As to the original OT question. I'm not sure I buy the Braves name change. This gets back to the question of who takes offensive and how many need to be offended to be classified as 'offensive'. Sometime in the 1987-1994 time frame (as I remember where I was living at the time), this was brought up with regard to the Braves (among others). There were a number of Native Americans that were fine with the team name of the Braves as it was a symbol of strength, courage, and nobility. The Redskins and Indians would be a different matter.

Of course, I don't agree with mobs destroying statues.
I live in New Orleans. The city removed the 4 most prominent Confederate statues in this city. It was a move that I would say the great majority of the residents of the city approved of.
I'm not in favor of destroying art. The statue of P.T. Beauregard in particular was a very beautiful statue of him riding on a very beautiful horse. I think these statues belong in museums, in a proper setting, with the proper context.
The city has placed them in storage, no one knows what will happen to them eventually.