eBay Sale & PWCC Vault

[mintacular]

Look, I don't want to start another PWCC bashing thread. However, I do have a question which is that I sold an item on eBay and the buyer was a random name (like Brian Davis) with a dash then PWCC Vault in the title. The shipping address is Oregon and I believe home to PWCC, with no sales tax as is the case of with residents in Oregon....

So my question is, let's say you are a high end buyer/collector and you spend 100K a year on sports cards. In Pennsylvania we have 6% sales tax which is about average I think, hence 6K in sales tax. If I were to open a Vault w/PWCC how much would that be per year and could you just collect cards there and have Brent ship them to you at later and avoid the 6K? Obviously PWCC would have a fee of their own/send-back or "cash-out" fee, but probably less 6% I would guess.

Thanks, just want some clarification if anyone knows how this whole VAULT situation works....-Pat

[swarmee]

PWCC openly advertised his lack of state sales taxes when opening the vault, so yes, Brent WANTS you to evade state taxes by using his facility. That's one major reason it was built in Oregon.

Still there:

[mintacular]

Is it illegal? Must be some rules that you can't ship cards from vault for over a year or something like that.....

[hcv123]

I wouldn't touch it with a 1000 foot pole.

[conor912]

Is it illegal?

Even if it is, I don't see how him shouting from the hilltops about exploiting it isn't gonna close that loophole real fast.

[pokerplyr80]

Is it illegal? Must be some rules that you can't ship cards from vault for over a year or something like that.....

I've heard 6 months but I'm not sure what the laws are and would assume they vary from state to state. It wouldn't surprise me if some states didn't specifically address this issue at all.

There are enough lawyers on this board that hopefully someone knows the answer.

[slightlyrounded]

I'm shocked, SHOCKED I tell you, that PWCC would be selling trimmed taxes as a service.

[swarmee]

I wonder if those states have laws like the federal government where they reward you for snitching on people who evade state sales taxes?

[GeoPoto]

While we are waiting for someone with experience to clarify this, I'll offer this as the way I would assume it works. Cards received by the vault are free of sales tax until they are shipped to an address in a state with sales tax -- sales tax on the original purchase is then due. However you can consign the cards to PWCC, have them shipped to an address in another state that doesn't have sales tax, or pick them up at the vault location and sales tax is never due on the original purchase. I doubt PWCC will ever ship the cards to a state that has sales tax without collecting the sales tax. The opportunity to (illegally) evade the sales tax altogether may have something to do with having an (unscrupulous) third party pick the cards up for you and then ship them to you. PWCC and the third party would have to feign ignorance of the result in order for them to avoid culpability in what would then be your crime.

Proper use of the vault would be limited to picking the cards up yourself in Oregon, having them shipped to an address in a state without sales tax and obtaining them in that state, or consigning them to PWCC for resale. If you spend six figures a year on cards (and don't want/can't qualify as a reseller), you could justify an annual trip to Oregon to pick up your cards and fly them home. I think that would be legal. Also, if you are constantly upgrading cards and consigning the discards to PWCC for resale, the vault could make sense.

[pokerplyr80]

I believe logically (and would assume legally) there would be a finite amount of time after which had passed that the cards could be shipped to you legally without tax being owed.

It may be a gray area, but there are accountants and tax professionals who advise legal ways to avoid or mitigate tax liability. The vault seems to be like it would be a legal way to avoid sales tax. If you owned a home in a high sales tax state and another in a state without tax, would it be illegal to ship it to your second house, then have it shipped from there?

[JohnP0621]

Why Not just pay the sales tax. As a collector I want the cards shipped to my address. I just consider the sales tax as part of the purchase and bid accordingly. No difference when figuring the buyers premium.
You could also have someone that you know from a state that does not collect sales tax purchase the items for you and send it to you.
Why left PWCC hold your cards.
Just my 2 cents & tax.

John P

[White Borders]

I'm shocked, SHOCKED I tell you, that PWCC would be selling trimmed taxes as a service.

LOL! I just watched Casablanca again this weekend :)

[Tyruscobb]

Happy Memorial Day everyone!

[perezfan]

But what happens if/when PWCC is shut down by the FBI, and Brent/Betsy do jail time? Will people still be able to access “The Vault”? It would be hilarious if all these “assets” were frozen, and unable to be connected to their actual tax-avoiding owners.

Pigs get fat; hogs get slaughtered.

[ruth-gehrig]

But what happens if/when PWCC is shut down by the FBI, and Brent/Betsy do jail time? Will people still be able to access “The Vault”? It would be hilarious if all these “assets” were frozen, and unable to be connected to their actual tax-avoiding owners.

Pigs get fat; hogs get slaughtered.

I asked your exact question to PWCC via email reply to one of their Vault emails and got no response lol

[perezfan]

Brent must be taking "silent lessons" from Orlando/Sloan/PSA these days...

Or maybe from Sgt. Schultz on Hogan's Heroes (I know nothing!)

[jbsports33]

Just a matter of time before most, if not all states have online sales tax, and OR could be one of them. There is nothing wrong with your question - Patrick

Happy collecting!

Jimmy

[sbfinley]

In my opinion, it's perfectly legal up to a certain point.

A) I don't think they're dumb enough to openly advertise it if it weren't. (Feel free to go nuts with that comment.)

B) My understanding is that purchases that are shipped and stored to residences or depositories in certain tax free states can be then forwarded by the owner to a sales tax jurisdiction if it remained in the tax free state for a period of 90 days. There are exceptions, New York for example, where the tax triggers once the item is shipped there no matter the length of time. Another consideration is the "for resale" exemption which I can't speak anything about because I've never been a dealer, but I would assume it could apply in some instances. I don't think the majority of people taking advantage of the service are buying for their collection, instead I would assume they are flipping for profit in which I can't exactly fault them for taking advantage of a service that might save them 6%-9%. Precious metal and art depositories have been in service for decades for the exact advantages PWCC list. It was really just a matter of time before it came to this hobby.


An aside: I've never understood the "I emailed them (insert dumb question or comment you know they would never respond to lolz rofl amirite) and they haven't responded yet yolo..." thing. I see it way too often and every time I cringe. Don't let me stop you, it's just my opinion.

[robw1959]

Look, I don't want to start another PWCC bashing thread. However, I do have a question which is that I sold an item on eBay and the buyer was a random name (like Brian Davis) with a dash then PWCC Vault in the title. The shipping address is Oregon and I believe home to PWCC, with no sales tax as is the case of with residents in Oregon....

So my question is, let's say you are a high end buyer/collector and you spend 100K a year on sports cards. In Pennsylvania we have 6% sales tax which is about average I think, hence 6K in sales tax. If I were to open a Vault w/PWCC how much would that be per year and could you just collect cards there and have Brent ship them to you at later and avoid the 6K? Obviously PWCC would have a fee of their own/send-back or "cash-out" fee, but probably less 6% I would guess.

Thanks, just want some clarification if anyone knows how this whole VAULT situation works....-Pat


The answer to your question is yes, PWCC does ship your items to you tax-free after they have been "curated". The curation time takes about three weeks, after which time you can request the items to be shipped and pay only the shipping cost and the 1% curation fee, which is half of 1% if the item was sold by PWCC in the first place. As a real example, I won a card listing from them for $3000 and had it curated, paying no tax or shipping fee. Then right after curation I had it shipped to me at which point it cost me $45 to have it delivered - $15 for the .5% curation fee and $30 for insured delivery. From the time I bought the card on eBay, I believe I had my card in hand in about one month. There is no cost whatsoever to establish and maintain a PWCC vault.

If you create PWCC's mailing address as a secondary shipping address in eBay, you can have anything shipped there tax-free, and then the curation process takes place as I described. I have only done this twice - both times on graded high-end PWCC cards, which I think are the only type of eBay transactions that make this process worthwhile.

I suppose you can call it tax evasion if you want to, but it is legitimate. And after all, didn't we collectors pay zero taxes on eBay purchases for many years before this new law to tax private transactions came about?

[ruth-gehrig]

I would never feel at ease shipping anything of value to a Vault to be "ingested", to be future flipped or not. I just received their email about incoming assets to be ingested free of charge. I cringe and laugh at the same time but to each their own.