Vintage Collector Trimmed Article And Thoughts

[mferronibc]

Good article in most current Beckett Vintage Collector on trimmed cards and some red flags to look out for. I would love to continue to train my eyes to detect alterations, but the question always comes up for me...without being able to actually hold the card in hand and inspect with loupes, etc. how can you confidently tell with online pics? I’ve seen a few posts on here referencing Ebay auctions and people posting “100% altered” without giving any specifics. This is obvious a critical need in the hobby (especially to inform newer, younger collectors) so why not have a separate thread/board solely of people’s examples and critiques of trimmed cards to help educate us all? Has anyone ever thought about an actual business- maybe prospective buyers pay a small fee to an “expert” who has been doing this for a long time to weigh in an opinion on the card (within say 24 hours) before the buyer bids? Thoughts?

[Aquarian Sports Cards]

It's kinda why you cultivate relationships with reliable sources. Good dealers, honest auction houses, fellow board members. Anytime you want to farm out a job like that you run the risk of corruption. It's best to put in the work with the aforementioned resources and learn for yourself. Not trying to be a jerk, but there is no good shortcut to putting in the time and learning, and frankly, if you enjoy the hobby, why would you want a shortcut? Learning the details about what you collect is a lot of the fun!

[mferronibc]

I can totally appreciates that Scott but it does sound a little nebulous. I’m not looking for shortcuts but where does one even start? Yes I’m willing to put in the time and effort but feel like there really aren’t a lot of resources out there to help. No specific books, threads, etc devoted to help recognize fraud in the hobby - isn’t this exactly what we need right now? And no matter how trusted a specific dealer or auction house is, do they really stand by the authenticity of everything they sell or simply just fallback on the PSA grade of the card as their stamp of approval (“if it was good enough for them..”). if they get their hands on a card they inspect and deem altered do they really eat it and not resell the card? Really wish that was true but have to imagine that’s about 5% of sellers.

[Hxcmilkshake]

Blowout cards forum has a myriad of threads around trimming, corruption etc. Good a place as any to start.

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[zsk]

Matt i agree 100%. I grew up collecting in the 90s-00s so I'm brand new to vintage. Reading some of these threads about ebay sellers or auction houses are a huge turn-off esp when you're talking hundreds or thousands of dollars. For someone new to vintage it's easy to feel overwhelmed and difficult to learn or know who to trust

[Aquarian Sports Cards]

I can totally appreciates that Scott but it does sound a little nebulous. I’m not looking for shortcuts but where does one even start? Yes I’m willing to put in the time and effort but feel like there really aren’t a lot of resources out there to help. No specific books, threads, etc devoted to help recognize fraud in the hobby - isn’t this exactly what we need right now? And no matter how trusted a specific dealer or auction house is, do they really stand by the authenticity of everything they sell or simply just fallback on the PSA grade of the card as their stamp of approval (“if it was good enough for them..”). if they get their hands on a card they inspect and deem altered do they really eat it and not resell the card? Really wish that was true but have to imagine that’s about 5% of sellers.

I know at the shows around here you get Net54 guys who meet up and share knowledge, the hunt, stories etc. Are there any members in your area that, when things get back to normal, you can meet with? Face to face interaction with cards in hand and people who have the same interests is probably the best (and fastest) way to learn. Like a lot of life you are as strong as your network. It's a win-win as, to me, this hobby is more fun when shared. Good Luck!

[steve B]

One of the things that makes it hard is that each set will be slightly different from others.

With trimming, it's mostly a matter of knowing what a factory edge looks like for that particular set. I've come to understand that sort of thing is easier for some people than others. Not a bad/good thing, but almost more of a difference in how their brains work. I'm pretty good with cards and edges, but almost hopeless with autographs even when I'm told what's good or bad about a particular one. I can get the really awfully bad fakes.

What sets are you into? I have a decent assortment of the more available ones and could send scans of the edges. Most were bought a long time ago, and while there was trimming it was usually very poorly done.
I also have examples of a thing or two that look suspect, but aren't.

[swarmee]

The main reasons that there are very few "how to detect trimmed/altered cards" threads is that if you put that information out there, the trimmers also read it and improve their techniques.
Did you read the following pages here at Net54?
https://www.net54baseball.com/forum/content/archivecenter.html

[mferronibc]

Thanks John, that link was very informative and also took a look at the blowout postings. I appreciate all the feedback and hate to just keep repeating the same question but all of this info basically assumes you have a raw card in hand at home with a halogen lamp and loupes. I live in small town Wisconsin, even before Covid there is little access to card stores or shows thus like most collectors I purchase 99% online. The crux of my question is how do you do that more confidently, especially if the card is already slabbed and only get a pic of the front and back? That's where my idea came up of an independent group of experienced collectors who could eyeball a posting and give you honest feedback (maybe for a fee of 2% of the value or something). This wouldn't be bible but at least help newer vintage collectors like me and in the big picture help the hobby in general because no one wins if altered cards continue to sell at exorbitant prices. Sure this too could be open to corruption but the mission statement would be based on integrity and trust and only those "trusted" collectors and dealers who have that cache would be involved.

It's a shame we cannot trust the authentication process (not just the grading - I can look at a card and even I can tell reasonably the grade) of the grading companies. Say what you want about PSA, and I certainly not oblivious to the critiques, but when an actual grader sits down with a card are they under a halogen lamp with loupes on, or do they just eyeball the corners and wear, assign a number and move on? I'm not asking for opinion, I'm know the hatred for PSA runs deep, but actual knowledge of this process. I've certainly seen good looking cards in a PSA slab labeled "altered" so at least sometimes this process worked as it should.

[swarmee]

The Purple Label guy here on this board said he believes he can identify alterations and will give a Silver sticker to an already slabbed card that he can confirm is "unaltered". Superdan from blowout has an email listed on his posts where you can message him directly. As said, you need to be an expert on each type of card, their factory edges, their look, their feel, etc. Maybe you just can't trust yourself to purchase items online until you get more experience.

Having the cards in hand raw you can feel, smell, and compare them to commons from the same set. Some of the people who say "trimmed" or "fake" on a post know what they're talking about and have the experience. Many are just trained to be distrustful, and will post "fake" no matter what to try and look smarter. For most Topps sets, you can get commons from COMC for under $1-2 each. For Goudey, you can probably buy some for $5-10 each.

One thing I've recommended in the past is to look up old threads (like 1933 Goudey Set Collectors or 1952 Topps set collectors) and see who the most knowledgeable guys on that set are. Then direct message those members and send them the link and get their thoughts directly. If you make a post, they might not respond, but if you send them a direct question, they usually will.

Fakers/trimmers have gotten really good over the past couple of years, and can now fake "factory rough cuts", "factory perforations", fill in pinholes, recolor ink, remove stains, etc. Many things you won't be able to tell from online scans unless the seller is willing to take additional pictures for you, or you could match them to previous scans of the same card. Good luck to you on trying to learn this stuff.

[swarmee]

Say what you want about PSA, and I certainly not oblivious to the critiques, but when an actual grader sits down with a card are they under a halogen lamp with loupes on, or do they just eyeball the corners and wear, assign a number and move on?
And to this, despite their website saying they use "state of the art" techniques to identify alterations, it's highly unlikely they are using black lights due to the huge numbers of bleached and recolored and rebuilt cards that they have given number grades. Even Joe Orlando has been quoted multiple times saying WTTE "grading is just people looking at cards."

[perezfan]

And to this, despite their website saying they use "state of the art" techniques to identify alterations, it's highly unlikely they are using black lights due to the huge numbers of bleached and recolored and rebuilt cards that they have given number grades. Even Joe Orlando has been quoted multiple times saying WTTE "grading is just people looking at cards."

Very true...

The simple use of a blacklight might have prevented hundreds (if not thousands) of recolored/rebuilt/re-backed and bleached cards from getting into numbered slabs. Just think what they could've accomplished by using a simple ruler!

Perhaps they just aren't motivated to do so, or have a different agenda. :(

[doug.goodman]

Very true...

The simple use of a blacklight might have prevented hundreds (if not thousands) of recolored/rebuilt/re-backed and bleached cards from getting into numbered slabs. Just think what they could've accomplished by using a simple ruler!

Perhaps they just aren't motivated to do so, or have a different agenda. :(

Oh they are plenty motivated.

By their profits.

They don't care to catch most of the "mistakes" that get through their system, because most of the owners of those mistakes don't really want to know.

The average opinion buyer just wants as high of a number as they can get, they certainly, to paraphrase the lovely and talented Mr. Nicholson "don't want the truth".

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MMzd40i8TfA

The opinion sellers get more repeat business with better ratings.

[swarmee]

Well, segments of the market who want unaltered cards gets a new competitor in the realm, as seen in the CGC (Comic grading) jumping into the graded card market. We'll see if they can figure out alterations better than the other two or three.

[Republicaninmass]

Sure, a company with 185 million market cap


"Doesnt care"

Wouldn't PSA WANT to have people try again and again with failed cards.


Where's the peanut gallery from a year or so ago claiming "psa is more stringent to get more resubmissions"?