The National

[forceplay sport]

wondering if the current situation with covid19 will effect The National ??

[Snapolit1]

I’m having a hard time picturing myself standing in a room with 8,000 of my closest friends in a little more than 4 months.

[polakoff]

Not only that, but the convention center is being turned into a field hospital for COVID patients now. Not gonna happen

[Tyruscobb]

Although everyone was looking forward to attending the National, how many were looking forward to going to Atlantic City? Hopefully, 2021 will return to Chicago.

[ullmandds]

2021 is Cleveland I believe.

[prestigecollectibles]

.

[bigfish]

Although everyone was looking forward to attending the National, how many were looking forward to going to Atlantic City? Hopefully, 2021 will return to Chicago.


It would have been a nice change of pace. Lots to do there other than cards which is nice. Looks like it might get canceled which would be unfortunate.

[polakoff]

I personally love the AC show. I did better as a dealer there than in Cleveland and found much more stuff to buy, too.

[marzoumanian]

Before the Fanatics/Rosemont show was cancelled here in Chicago earlier this month I kept wondering why they were waiting so long to kill it. I learned that it all came down to insurance ($$$). I was told by a dealer who was exhibiting that until the governor of Illinois prohibited large gatherings of people (which he announced on 3/11, the day before the Fanatics show was to begin) Fanatics would have not been able to get its money back (from the convention center). Once JBP declared, Fanatics cancelled.
I don't know what the National's insurance situation is but the wise thing to do in light of this pandemic is to cancel sooner rather than later, in my humble opinion. We shall see. Take care.

Mark Arzoumanian

[hcv123]

It would have been a nice change of pace. Lots to do there other than cards which is nice. Looks like it might get canceled which would be unfortunate.

Due to casinos opening up all over the place Atlantic City is a shadow of what it used to be. Really sad to see. I used to love going there when it was bustling.

[Snapolit1]

Due to casinos opening up all over the place Atlantic City is a shadow of what it used to be. Really sad to see. I used to love going there when it was bustling.

Actually the facts are that they closed a few casinos and right-sized the market pretty well, and with the introduction of sports betting AC was pulling in all time high revenues this year before the shutdown.

[ejharrington]

I really hope not. I live on East Coast and cant make the ones in the Midwest. This will be my first if it happens.

[polakoff]

I know it's doubtful because of the logistics but does anyone think they might "postpone" until the fall rather than skipping altogether?

[Exhibitman]

Refunds are probably the driver, not insurance. Typical business interruption insurance is not going to cover this.

All week long I have been reviewing business interruption coverage for clients with regard to this circumstance. Most any policy written by a carrier who uses ISO forms (the Insurance Services Organization; the company that writes most insurance forms) has a policy that contains endorsement ISO CP 01 40 07 06 “EXCLUSION OF LOSS DUE TO VIRUS OR BACTERIA”. I did some research to try and figure out the interpretations of this provision. In 2006, ISO introduced the CP 01 40 07 06 – Exclusion Of Loss Due To Virus Or Bacteria endorsement. The reason cited in their Forms Filing application in Louisiana was as follows:

“While property policies have not been a source of recovery for losses involving contamination by disease-causing agents, the specter of pandemic or hitherto unorthodox transmission of infectious material raises the concern that insurers employing such policies may face claims in which there are efforts to expand coverage and to create sources of recovery for such losses, contrary to policy intent.

“In light of these concerns, we are presenting an exclusion relating to contamination by disease-causing viruses or bacteria or other disease-causing microorganisms.”

A policy with this endorsement excludes “loss or damage caused by or resulting from any virus” and specifically applies to “forms or endorsements that cover business income, extra expense or action of civil authority.” That effectively prohibits coverage for all of the losses of income a business closed or suffering vastly reduced income due to the pandemic might assert. The operation of this exclusion is considered ‘absolute’, similar to the way the pollution exclusion is written: regardless of what form the loss takes, if it stems from the virus it is excluded.

I also checked to see if we could trigger based on the stay at home order itself or the government rent abatement orders rather than the virus itself. Unfortunately, not. Even assuming the virus exclusion did not apply, governmental order coverage is triggered by physical damage to property near yours that makes it unsafe to enter or that causes the civil authorities to temporarily deny you physical access to the premises. Nor does it cover loss of business due to the event. The ISO property policy typically used with the virus endorsement states:

“Extended Business Income does not apply to loss of Business Income incurred as a result of unfavorable business conditions caused by the impact of the Covered Cause of Loss in the area where the described premises are located.”

“Loss of Business Income must be caused by direct physical loss or damage at the described premises caused by or resulting from any Covered Cause of Loss.”

Everyone who thought private insurance was going to bridge the gap for them and who ended up with a typical ISO-drafted policy is in for a very rude awakening. That said, every policy has tweaks and modifications, so the only way to see what the insurer will do is to make a claim and see what happens. I also hear that some states are considering regulations that invalidate the exclusion for this pandemic. You need to run your policy past your lawyer in your state to get a specific answer.

[1952boyntoncollector]

What are sellers supposed to say now that like to use the threat, 'ill sell it at the national to get my price' when trying to negotiate a card that has been listed for months and months.. that was a main tool in their tool box..

[bnorth]

What are sellers supposed to say now that like to use the threat, 'ill sell it at the national to get my price' when trying to negotiate a card that has been listed for months and months.. that was a main tool in their tool box..

I have never once seen that before your post. Have any examples of sellers saying that?

[CurtisFlood]

I took a skip year this year due to knee replacement and the fact I was not sure I would be physically ready for the drive and grind of a weeks national. In that regard I feel fortunate not to be worrying about whether or not the national will be held. Some of my buddies are very concerned about whether it will be held or not, and if I were to venture a guess, I would say there will not be a national this year.

[Jdoggs]

When’s the national coming to Vegas?

[CurtisFlood]

When’s the national coming to Vegas?

Very likely never. The committee tends to lean toward rotating between Chicago and Cleveland and once in a while throwing a bone to the eastern dealers by holding the event in Atlantic City. Their reasoning is by doing this they are reaching the majority of the collectors. There are logistical reasons they use those areas as well.

[PhillyFan1883]

AC show is my favorite. I am an east coaster so I am biased, because its only about 1 hour 40 mins from me in PA. AC as a city is actually bouncing back to some of the members points about sports betting and new establishments. At least there is the beach, boardwalk, and casinos for down time. The other shows not much to do around the convention centers.. I have heard from my friends AC is the most hated national by far for the majority of people/dealers.. lol.

My guess is the next national will still take place in AC even if it is delayed a full year.. hope that doesn’t happen.. Also I have no idea how that works. Thats My hope at least.

[polakoff]

I don’t think that will happen, they book the dates three years ahead of time which is another reason they bounce between those three cities, many venues will not book dates that far out but those three do. Holding the next national in Atlantic City no matter what would mean breaking the contracts with the other venues and changing the dates if future dates were even available. Either they will try and reschedule for sometime in the fall, which is less likely, or they will just straight up cancel this national and pretend like it never happened.

[Republicaninmass]

It would have been a nice change of pace. Lots to do there other than cards which is nice. Looks like it might get canceled which would be unfortunate.

Agreed for the East Coasters, something within driving distance.


It's still pretty far away, so I'm holding out hope.

I've done a family trip to AC avery year, and this coincides quite nicely

[Treakle23]

Too bad they couldn’t do a virtual National. Sellers list everything they were going to bring with them (with images) and sellers are labeled in booth order. It would open the National to every collector. Maybe a dumb idea on short notice, but.....

[Snapolit1]

I just received notification from Ticketmaster that a show I have tickets for at Madison Square Garden in mid August has cancelled. Pretty clear conventions not happening.

[Jay Wolt]

I just received notification from Ticketmaster that a show I have tickets for at Madison Square Garden in mid August has cancelled. Pretty clear conventions not happening.
& the Hall Of Fame cancelled the induction ceremony too!

[Jewish-collector]

I doubt there will be a National this year. That's too bad because the National is more about meeting up with fellow collectors and dealers, enjoying dinners after the show, having a few cold ones, etc,... and less about acquiring vintage cards.

[roarfrom34]

& the Hall Of Fame cancelled the induction ceremony too!

You may have misread that...They cancelled their HOF Classic weekend in late May & they very well may eventually cancel Induction weekend in July as well, but that hasn't been announced yet

[Jay Wolt]

Bill thanks for the clarification, hopefully its still a go come summer

[Chicosbailbonds]

When’s the national coming to Vegas?

I think it would do very well there. They should run some yearly regional shows to build support.

[pokerplyr80]

I think it would do very well there. They should run some yearly regional shows to build support.

I would attend a Vegas national. Other conventions seem to do well there.

[perezfan]

Same here. Vegas would be awesome. But the "powers that be" are too cheap to ever do it.

[prestigecollectibles]

.

[hcv123]

Is there a table holder willing to rent part of their table? If the show happens of course. Please PM me to discuss details. Thanks.

Howard

[Johnny630]

Even if it goes on I have no intentions of going.....it’s not worth the risk to me. Prayers for everyone’s safety....cards are a distant memory to me.

[toppcat]

I would attend a Vegas national. Other conventions seem to do well there.

I'd go too-would be a lot of fun!

[Aquarian Sports Cards]

Wonder when things get back to normal if that's something Joe Drelich might consider putting together???

[Snapolit1]

I'd go too-would be a lot of fun!

Last time we had this debate I think someone pointed out that Vegas is super expensive to hold a convention.

[vintagewhitesox]

Even if it goes on I have no intentions of going.....it’s not worth the risk to me. Prayers for everyone’s safety....cards are a distant memory to me.


I'm leaning that way. First one in 14 years I think I will miss.
Who would feel comfortable going to a convention center that maybe 30-60 days prior housed people with Covid-19?

[packs]

Kind of ironic people don't want to spend time in AC when the next two locations are Chicago and Cleveland.

[Exhibitman]

Kind of ironic people don't want to spend time in AC when the next two locations are Chicago and Cleveland.

Having been to all three, the ranking is simple to understand...

[1952boyntoncollector]

I am going to bring PSA 10 toilet paper thats unaltered and in original wrapping and have it signed...

[1952boyntoncollector]

I have never once seen that before your post. Have any examples of sellers saying that?

in plenty of emails over the years, i guess its akin to 'ill sell on ebay if cant sell here etc'

[pokerplyr80]

Last time we had this debate I think someone pointed out that Vegas is super expensive to hold a convention.

I bet you could get a discount booking one now.

[jasonkaiser25]

Last time we had this debate I think someone pointed out that Vegas is super expensive to hold a convention.

Vegas is controlled by labor unions. It's a huge headache to have a trade show there.

[vintagewhitesox]

Vegas is controlled by labor unions. It's a huge headache to have a trade show there.

Seriously.
Hasn't anybody here seen Casino?

[CurtisFlood]

Same here. Vegas would be awesome. But the "powers that be" are too cheap to ever do it.

I think it would be better than Atlanta, but then the "powers that be" are averse to risk. The local collectors carry the shows in Chicago, Cleveland, and to an extent Atlantic City. Baltimore was an excellent venue and a good National site, but there were some problems getting scheduled as far in advance as necessary in that great city. It is much too simplistic to just say they are too cheap.

[steve B]

Vegas is controlled by labor unions. It's a huge headache to have a trade show there.

And Chicago isn't?

Will the freebie bag in Chicago include body armor?

[steve B]

Everyone who thought private insurance was going to bridge the gap for them and who ended up with a typical ISO-drafted policy is in for a very rude awakening. That said, every policy has tweaks and modifications, so the only way to see what the insurer will do is to make a claim and see what happens. I also hear that some states are considering regulations that invalidate the exclusion for this pandemic. You need to run your policy past your lawyer in your state to get a specific answer.

Just curious, if someone files a claim now and it gets denied, then their state invalidates the exclusion... Could the ins co still deny it because the claim was put in before the exclusion was invalidated?

Also, it seems pretty slimy for insurance to exclude losses because of a global pandemic. Losses if one individual gets sick, I can see not covering that, but when it's a major problem?
Seems like "we'll cover stuff, as long as it's not really all that bad. "

[perezfan]

I think it would be better than Atlanta, but then the "powers that be" are averse to risk. The local collectors carry the shows in Chicago, Cleveland, and to an extent Atlantic City. Baltimore was an excellent venue and a good National site, but there were some problems getting scheduled as far in advance as necessary in that great city. It is much too simplistic to just say they are too cheap.

I think Vegas would be their biggest Show ever. They are short-sighted and yes... cheap.

[Exhibitman]

Just curious, if someone files a claim now and it gets denied, then their state invalidates the exclusion... Could the ins co still deny it because the claim was put in before the exclusion was invalidated?



They'd have a fight under U. S. Const., Art. I, §10, cl. 1: “[n]o state shall . . . pass any . . . Law impairing the Obligation of Contracts.” The states might win under the two-part test the Supreme Court uses to evaluate those laws given the overriding public issues involved, but at the same time the magnitude of claims would swamp the insurance industry and send most business carriers into bankruptcy or into a Federal bail-out. It would probably be less disruptive for the Feds to simply provide BI-equivalent coverage directly, which is sort of what the CARES Act tries to do, just in the most bass-ackwards way imaginable.

But I digress.

The National is toast. They won't announce it until the last minute but there is no way that a makeshift hospital (the convention center) is going to be cleaned up in time to entice people to head there in July.

[ullmandds]

I think Vegas would be their biggest Show ever. They are short-sighted and yes... cheap.

I think vegas would attract the most participants who didn't go to the destination specifically for it...if that makes sense?

[Johnny630]

I'd go if they ever did it in Las Vegas

[perezfan]

I think vegas would attract the most participants who didn't go to the destination specifically for it...if that makes sense?

Yes, makes complete sense...

They would get a ton of extra foot traffic from tourists who aren't there specifically for the sports convention (but are curious to check it out). God forbid, we get some new blood in this hobby...

In addition to this incremental interest and increased foot traffic, Las Vegas would attract more seasoned collectors as well. As for logistics... there are easy direct flights to Vegas from most markets. Same cannot be said for the painfully dreadful accessibility of Atlantic City.

Too bad they'll never even consider Vegas... just too cheap! :mad:

[ullmandds]

Yes, makes complete sense...

They would get a ton of extra foot traffic from tourists who aren't there specifically for the sports convention (but are curious to check it out). God forbid, we get some new blood in this hobby...

In addition to this incremental interest and increased foot traffic, Las Vegas would attract more seasoned collectors as well. As for logistics... there are easy direct flights to Vegas from most markets. Same cannot be said for the painfully dreadful accessibility of Atlantic City.

Too bad they'll never even consider Vegas... just too cheap! :mad:

Vegas would be expensive for the dealers...and thats a problem too.

[CurtisFlood]

I think Vegas would be their biggest Show ever. They are short-sighted and yes... cheap.

Smart, not cheap. You seem to like that word, you must be a true high roller.

[Frazier]

Another big issue the dealers would have, is the loss of potential collector spending $, due to losses from the gambling tables and slots in Vegas. Much more prevalent and readily accessible, then in Atlantic City.

Just my opinion.

[perezfan]

Smart, not cheap. You seem to like that word, you must be a true high roller.

I’m not.

I’d just like to see it happen in a fresh place, west of the Mississippi maybe once or twice per decade. Mix it up a tiny bit, for gosh sake. San Diego would be another excellent venue. Great convention center, beautifully sandwiched between the waterfront and the gas lamp district, with a slew of great restaurants and bars.

I say “cheap” because they practically get free “rent” in Cleveland and AC. No attendee would choose those 2 venues, if given even a small multiple choice. No offense to anyone who lives in those great cities, but direct flights are quite difficult, logistics are only good for a scant few, and recreational activities are limited. I have no problem at all with Chicago every other year.

[Leon]

I wasn't going to AC and am still not going to the National. When the committee pulls their heads from where the sun don't shine, I will be back. It has been a clusterfu@! since Mike Berkus passed away. They all need to be fired if you ask me. Start at the top. (I fully realize that can't happen, but it can't hurt to hope.)

[Exhibitman]

I wasn't going to AC and am still not going to the National. When the committee pulls their heads from where the sun don't shine, I will be back. It has been a clusterfu@! since Mike Berkus passed away. They all need to be fired if you ask me. Start at the top. (I fully realize that can't happen, but it can't hurt to hope.)

https://photos.imageevent.com/exhibitman/dropins/Costanza%20clap.gif

[brianp-beme]

Speaking of Mike Berkus, here is a link to the thread he participated in 2012 (I think 8 separate posts total in the thread) about the various reasons behind convention site selection. His comments start on post #14.

http://www.net54baseball.com/showthread.php?t=114661

Brian